Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

stephen_n · 13-08-2020 1:31pm

Buer wrote: »

I'd say that the English pack overall is far more aggressive than ours. Vunipola wasn't playing this year against us and they still comfortably dominated us in terms of physicality.

There's probably not a huge amount of difference in strength but they're more dynamic and utilise their power and size far more. Curry and Underhill aren't massive guys but they show a level of physicality that we rarely see from our flankers. They dominate top tier opposition with their combination of timing and dynamism. We rarely see an Irish back rower make the gain line hits and carries that these guys do.

They also have guys like Lawes who is 115kg and can slot into the back row without missing a beat bringing extreme mobility and the same levels of aggression.

Ferris is probably as close as we get to that genetic freak scenario but even he didn't have a huge number of momentum shifting moments at test level where he absolutely emptied an opposition player in possession or obliterated a ruck the way we've seen England do to us over the past 18 months.

A lot of England’s physicality crosses the line and that’s perfectly fine with Jones. I think certainly under Joe, we were too clean for our own good. Maybe Ryan was testing the waters under Farrell, in that English performance. Hopefully we will see a willingness to play more on the edge and make those bigger dominant hits.

Former Former · 13-08-2020 1:35pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

This is what you need to stop England
Line speed & Freaks

Ah you're way over-hyping them. Like, they were well beaten by a very inexperienced and not especially freaky France a few weeks prior to beating us, and just about fell over the line against Scotland in a game that was tailor made for a team with a big pack.

ionadnapokot · 13-08-2020 1:45pm

Former Former wrote: »

Ah you're way over-hyping them. Like, they were well beaten by a very inexperienced and not especially freaky France a few weeks prior to beating us, and just about fell over the line against Scotland in a game that was tailor made for a team with a big pack.

France!
Puissance en abondance
They dont get coffee & croissants in Edinburgh

Buer · 13-08-2020 2:41pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

They have come full circle from Haskell & Robshaw era to having one of the best BR in the world.

I'll never understand the grief guys like Robshaw and Haskell get. They were the starting flankers for a Grand Slam and a whitewash of Australia. They also played for England during a less successful period which coincided with their peak but Haskell in particular was a big talent. Him playing outside of England for 4 years didn't help his career either.

He was absolutely of the same style that we see now and probably one the first of the modern breed of flanker in terms of all round ability and size. Extremely strong and mobile with a big engine. His performances in Australia in 2016 were about as good as any back row player in the past several years outplaying Hooper and Pocock.

ionadnapokot · 13-08-2020 3:14pm

As Blood & Mud beautifully put it once -
"Oh look, Haskell completely ****ed something up that required something other than tackling or talking ****e. What a ****ing surprise."

Incomparable to Curry or Underhill

AbusesToilets · 13-08-2020 4:41pm

Buer wrote: »

I'd say that the English pack overall is far more aggressive than ours. Vunipola wasn't playing this year against us and they still comfortably dominated us in terms of physicality.

There's probably not a huge amount of difference in strength but they're more dynamic and utilise their power and size far more. Curry and Underhill aren't massive guys but they show a level of physicality that we rarely see from our flankers. They dominate top tier opposition with their combination of timing and dynamism. We rarely see an Irish back rower make the gain line hits and carries that these guys do.

They also have guys like Lawes who is 115kg and can slot into the back row without missing a beat bringing extreme mobility and the same levels of aggression.

Ferris is probably as close as we get to that genetic freak scenario but even he didn't have a huge number of momentum shifting moments at test level where he absolutely emptied an opposition player in possession or obliterated a ruck the way we've seen England do to us over the past 18 months.

It's the passivness that's killer, letting England and NZ smash us back, carry after carry. We know we've done best when the team is aggressive in the tackle, let in the biggest games it's been soak, soak, soak. Maddening

Buer · 13-08-2020 4:45pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

As Blood & Mud beautifully put it once -
"Oh look, Haskell completely ****ed something up that required something other than tackling or talking ****e. What a ****ing surprise."

Incomparable to Curry or Underhill

Eloquent and well supported points.

Curry and Underhill are superior players and will have lengthy and successful careers. But you're somewhat doing the two lads a disservice by being so dimissive of them. That is of course you actually meant England having come full circle literally which would mean they're now back at the level they were with Haskell and Robshaw.

England were the dominant side in world rugby in 2016 and Haskell was a key player for them, winning player of the series in the Australia whitewash and starting every 6N game. It was only the second occasion in history when a side won every game in a calendar year.

Guys like Robshaw and Haskell will never be looked upon as greats (nor should they be) but they also get a very raw deal in how they're perceived in people's memories. People struggle to separate a person from their performances.

Richie_Rich89 · 13-08-2020 4:50pm

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Just havng a little day dream here....indulge me!
2011 RWC QF Ireland 22 v 10 Wales
Joe Schmidt Ireland head coach
Kearney; Bowe, BOD, Dorce, Trimble; Murray, Sexton: Best, Ross; DOC, POC (c); Ferris, SOB, Heaslip
Rep:
Cronin, Court, Ryan, Wallace, Reddan, ROG, Earls (wing only)

SF Ireland 9 v 8 France
Final Ireland 8 v 7 NZ Ref: His Holiness

Schmidt lost both his World Cup quarter finals more heavily than Kidney lost his.

I don't think the Ferris, SOB, Heaslip backrow ever really clicked. Wallace was a huge loss. He was a better carrier against set defences than O'Brien was. The backrow that started the big win against England in that year's 6N was 6. O'Brien, 7. Wallace, 8. Heaslip.

With Wallace absent, it might have been better to start an out-and-out openside like Jennings in the qf against Wales. He completely changed the game coming on for the second half against Northampton in the Euro Final earlier that year.

aloooof · 13-08-2020 4:57pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Schmidt lost both his World Cup quarter finals more heavily than Kidney lost his.

I don't think the Ferris, SOB, Heaslip backrow ever really clicked. Wallace was a huge loss. He was a better carrier against set defences than O'Brien was. The backrow that started the big win against England in that year's 6N was 6. O'Brien, 7. Wallace, 8. Heaslip.

With Wallace absent, it might have been better to start an out-and-out openside like Jennings in the qf against Wales. He completely changed the game coming on for the second half against Northampton in the Euro Final earlier that year.

I doubt we'll ever have a better back-row quartet than Ferris, Wally, Heaslip and SOB.

CMcsporty · 13-08-2020 7:54pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Schmidt lost both his World Cup quarter finals more heavily than Kidney lost his.

I don't think the Ferris, SOB, Heaslip backrow ever really clicked. Wallace was a huge loss. He was a better carrier against set defences than O'Brien was. The backrow that started the big win against England in that year's 6N was 6. O'Brien, 7. Wallace, 8. Heaslip.

With Wallace absent, it might have been better to start an out-and-out openside like Jennings in the qf against Wales. He completely changed the game coming on for the second half against Northampton in the Euro Final earlier that year.

Was never a big fan of Jennings at test level.
I think Ireland’s biggest problem was that they were brainless. Give it to SOB and take it from there.
Chop tackle. Try again. Chop tackle. Give it to Ferris. Chop. Pass to ROG. Smash.

CMcsporty · 13-08-2020 7:58pm

aloooof wrote: »

I doubt we'll ever have a better back-row quartet than Ferris, Wally, Heaslip and SOB.

Still find it mad that they are all practically finished.
I’m getting old!

Paul Smeenus · 18-08-2020 1:14pm

The all-provincial list of injuries getting a bit long. So much for coming back refreshed.

Ulster:
Henderson
Addison
Curtis
Warwick
Baloucoune
Reidy

Leinster:
James Ryan
Adam Byrne
Peter Dooley
Vakh Abdaladze
Fergus McFadden
Conor O’Brien

Munster:
Joey Carbery
Mike Haley
Dan Goggin
Roman Salanoa
Tadhg Bierne

Connacht:
Quin Roux
Oisín Dowling
Seán O'Brien
Peter Robb
Stephen Fitzgerald

I’m sure I’ve missed some.

Clegg · 18-08-2020 1:18pm

I do t know what the situation is with others, but in James Ryan's case it appears that he's well on the way to recovery. Back in training at least.

Paul Smeenus · 18-08-2020 1:20pm

So's Beirne, and maybe Dooley? In fairness, those injury lists mid-season wouldn't look out of place. I just thought each province might start back with something closer to the full complement of players.

thomond2006 · 18-08-2020 1:22pm

Beirne just returned to training.

awec · 18-08-2020 1:24pm

I assume a few of these guys are out because they couldn’t get required treatment during the summer, rather than picking up recent injuries.

Paul Smeenus · 18-08-2020 1:26pm

I dunno. That's the case with Henderson, and Addison had surgery earlier in the year. Maybe Abdaladze? But names are being added with every update.

Clegg · 18-08-2020 1:27pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

So's Beirne, and maybe Dooley? In fairness, those injury lists mid-season wouldn't look out of place. I just thought each province might start back with something closer to the full complement of players.

It sort of makes sense that injuries are occuring. Murray Kinsella made the point a few weeks ago that players were training diligently, but without the supervision of S&C coaches. They were given schedules, but with no way to oversee what they're doing injuries are more likely to occur. And rugby is a very physical game anyway. Injuries occur in training all the time. Couple that with patchy S&C work during lockdown and you have trouble.

It's the likes of Abdaladze, Addison and Carbery that worry me more. These are guys with chronic injury problems that haven't been caused by lack of oversight.

Paul Smeenus · 18-08-2020 1:28pm

Yeah, agreed. Curtis as well. He already got pulled from one season for having too many concussions.

Burkie1203 · 20-08-2020 8:55am

I see we are in the Army now

https://twitter.com/SportsJOEdotie/status/1296311247055585280?s=19

Eod100 · 20-08-2020 9:19am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I see we are in the Army now

https://twitter.com/SportsJOEdotie/status/1296311247055585280?s=19

I know you can't do much to change a solid green jersey but don't think the camo look is great at all

Rigor Mortis · 20-08-2020 9:32am

Jesus, that is a low.

arsebiscuits1 · 20-08-2020 9:57am

Looks a lot like the Sevens camo style jersey they have.

I like it.

The alternate.... not so much, bit like a training jersey. But sure we will only wear it once

Podge_irl · 20-08-2020 10:03am

I kinda like it

DGRulz · 20-08-2020 10:16am

Not massively opposed to it but think it might have been better if it was entirely camo, at least at the front. The front on shot on Elvery's website kinda looks like it's a camo apron.

theboss80 · 20-08-2020 10:17am

Problem for me being of a bigger frame the sizing is all over the shop. Hadn't bought Canterbury in a few years and bout some stuff with a voucher back at the RWC time and where a 3xl is perfectly fine for me in an Adidas Munster jersey the 4xl was skin tight in a Canterbury Ireland one and is therefore lying on a hanger.

Squidgy Black · 20-08-2020 11:22am

I think the lighting they chose for the photos isn't doing it any favours.

20-08-2020 11:28am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I think the lighting they chose for the photos isn't doing it any favours.

Same happened last year the Jersey looked almost luminous because of the lighting was grand in person

Clegg · 20-08-2020 11:30am

Would it be time to consider selecting a new captain? Sexton has a contract until 2021 so it makes sense to start the transition.

Paul Smeenus · 20-08-2020 11:36am

Clegg wrote: »

Would it be time to consider selecting a new captain? Sexton has a contract until 2021 so it makes sense to start the transition.

< rubs hands together >

Clegg · 20-08-2020 11:39am

When I say consider a new captain I meant just give it to James Ryan now.

errlloyd · 20-08-2020 11:41am

Does the alternate not have the same problem as the last alternate? IE being almost the same colour as South Africa, the only nation we wear our alternate against?

Podge_irl · 20-08-2020 11:47am

errlloyd wrote: »

Does the alternate not have the same problem as the last alternate? IE being almost the same colour as South Africa, the only nation we wear our alternate against?

Alas, the days of only wearing the alternate when playing SA in Dublin are well and truly gone anyway. They will wear it for some game no matter what.

errlloyd · 20-08-2020 11:50am

I just remember Conway scoring that try against South Africa, and me not understanding why they'd ground it over their own line like that.

Cookiemunster · 20-08-2020 11:54am

errlloyd wrote: »

Does the alternate not have the same problem as the last alternate? IE being almost the same colour as South Africa, the only nation we wear our alternate against?

We won't be playing SA in Dublin the next 12 months, so it doesn't matter. We'll have a different away jersey before we do. This will be worn in one of the Autumn tests.

Captain_Crash · 20-08-2020 12:55pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

We won't be playing SA in Dublin the next 12 months, so it doesn't matter. We'll have a different away jersey before we do. This will be worn in one of the Autumn tests.

Or maybe worn as a warm up jersey like the white/shaded green world cup was one was

shootermacg · 20-08-2020 3:31pm

Clegg wrote: »

When I say consider a new captain I meant just give it to James Ryan now.

CJ would be my pick, although I'd also have no problem with Ryan.

aloooof · 20-08-2020 3:46pm

Am I right in saying Sexton was given it just for this season initially? Have a vague memory of that at the time. Wonder how that'll work out now.

Squidgy Black · 20-08-2020 4:21pm

aloooof wrote: »

Am I right in saying Sexton was given it just for this season initially? Have a vague memory of that at the time. Wonder how that'll work out now.

Yeah he mentioned in an interview that it was "a one campaign thing"

awec · 20-08-2020 5:48pm

It looks worse when you see it without filters. WTF is with the black bits.

118149891_3323973194327251_7118924416412194289_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=AuzH5ZhE9s4AX8QSPsJ&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=ca8428a78317ada15e13dd571726d63b&oe=5F626545

118149891_3323973194327251_7118924416412194289_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=AuzH5ZhE9s4AX8QSPsJ&_nc_ht=scontent-dub4-1.xx&oh=ca8428a78317ada15e13dd571726d63b&oe=5F626545

Shefwedfan · 20-08-2020 6:02pm

aloooof wrote: »

Am I right in saying Sexton was given it just for this season initially? Have a vague memory of that at the time. Wonder how that'll work out now.

Yes it was just till the end of the Aus tour, so I think it would be a bit bad to pull off him now. Maybe give for 1 season with X as back up for him.

20-08-2020 6:25pm

shootermacg wrote: »

CJ would be my pick, although I'd also have no problem with Ryan.

I'd have no issue with CJ, he's done a huge amount for Irish rugby and has always been incredibly committed. He's earned honorary Irishman status many times over at this stage.

But I think the IRFU would struggle with the choice. It would draw a lot of criticism from idiot commentators and the noise is something Irish rugby will want to avoid. Not right or fair but will be a consideration I suspect, albeit the players are likely to have more of a say than a subsection of the public.

As for Ryan - he's a nailed on starter, but I don't know if he's a leader within the group to the degree that he'd be nominated captain by the players and ultimately - the choice of captain will be strongly influenced by senior players.

20-08-2020 6:38pm

awec wrote: »

It looks worse when you see it without filters. WTF is with the black bits.

Like the leinster jersey, I'm just not a fan of the middle texture part

Former Former · 20-08-2020 6:41pm

awec wrote: »

It looks worse when you see it without filters. WTF is with the black bits.

They represent strength, power and unity.

OBVIOUSLY

connemara man · 20-08-2020 7:00pm

awec wrote: »

It looks worse when you see it without filters. WTF is with the black bits.

It's like when a roller is running low on paint!

AbusesToilets · 20-08-2020 7:01pm

Don't know why they insisted on changing it, thought the WC one was grand

PTH2009 · 20-08-2020 8:16pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Don't know why they insisted on changing it, thought the WC one was grand

€€€

I'll happily keep my polos in which were new only a year ago

Part and parcel of sports today with near gear out every few months. The prices are horrendous tbh

clsmooth · 20-08-2020 8:51pm

shootermacg wrote: »

CJ would be my pick, although I'd also have no problem with Ryan.

Turning down those 3 points in Saracens for a LBP must be a mark against him though. We’ve been blessed with some excellent captains over the past 20 years. No clear cut candidate this time around though.

Buer · 20-08-2020 9:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd have no issue with CJ, he's done a huge amount for Irish rugby and has always been incredibly committed. He's earned honorary Irishman status many times over at this stage.

But I think the IRFU would struggle with the choice. It would draw a lot of criticism from idiot commentators and the noise is something Irish rugby will want to avoid. Not right or fair but will be a consideration I suspect, albeit the players are likely to have more of a say than a subsection of the public.

As for Ryan - he's a nailed on starter, but I don't know if he's a leader within the group to the degree that he'd be nominated captain by the players and ultimately - the choice of captain will be strongly influenced by senior players.

It's going to be very hard for them to really identify a captain right at this point in time which is why I think they'll be fairly comfortable to leave it with Sexton for another season (as long as he remains the best option at 10).

Ryan is widely believed to be captain in waiting but I just don't see him as being ready right now. He's definitely coming into his own and developed more since he first came on the scene but I think another season would be of benefit to him.

Outside Sexton and Ryan, Henderson is the most likely option. The leadership group during the 6N was Sexton, POM, Henderson, Ringrose, Furlong and Ryan. I don't see Furlong or Ringrose as being captain material/options. CJ Stander was actually removed from the leadership group, oddly enough. I don't see that as a great indication for any captaincy claims and the fact that he is not a bona fide Irish person won't be in his favour either. POM was long thought to be captain in waiting but having lost his starting spot and also been overlooked for the job during the RWC in favour of Sexton, I think that ship may have sailed.

Henderson is probably in with a strong shout. Good age profile, pretty assured of his spot in the team (although that could change if he's out of the team for October/November) and captains his province. It will probably be a straight call between him and Ryan for the job. If they were to make the call this season, I'd say Henderson. If Sexton remains in place until 2021/22, then I expect Ryan to get the gig.

AbusesToilets · 20-08-2020 9:50pm

Buer wrote: »

It's going to be very hard for them to really identify a captain right at this point in time which is why I think they'll be fairly comfortable to leave it with Sexton for another season (as long as he remains the best option at 10).

Ryan is widely believed to be captain in waiting but I just don't see him as being ready right now. He's definitely coming into his own and developed more since he first came on the scene but I think another season would be of benefit to him.

Outside Sexton and Ryan, Henderson is the most likely option. The leadership group during the 6N was Sexton, POM, Henderson, Ringrose, Furlong and Ryan. I don't see Furlong or Ringrose as being captain material/options. CJ Stander was actually removed from the leadership group, oddly enough. I don't see that as a great indication for any captaincy claims and the fact that he is not a bona fide Irish person won't be in his favour either. POM was long thought to be captain in waiting but having lost his starting spot and also been overlooked for the job during the RWC in favour of Sexton, I think that ship may have sailed.

Henderson is probably in with a strong shout. Good age profile, pretty assured of his spot in the team (although that could change if he's out of the team for October/November) and captains his province. It will probably be a straight call between him and Ryan for the job. If they were to make the call this season, I'd say Henderson. If Sexton remains in place until 2021/22, then I expect Ryan to get the gig.

I'd be surprised if Henderson was chosen. He's too inconsistent in his performances for me, and doesn't impose himself physically enough for me.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Comments