Abolish car tax

Caquas · 15-01-2020 12:05am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

It's not a mandate for anything. Don't be silly.

It's merely a bunch of relatively high contributors to road tax expressing a desire to pay less.

Not a mandate but why dismiss their desire to pay less tax?

The central problem in this country is that our politicians claim they can solve every problem but the only way they know is to spend public money. Now that Europe blocks deficit spending, that means taxes and more taxes. Our media play the same game.

If you think this online survey is unrepresentative, let’s have a referendum. An unheard of suggestion but why not ask the people if they want this tax? This should be an election issue but instead all the parties will make unfunded promises and renege on their tax promises.

Charles Babbage · 15-01-2020 11:50am

It isn't hard to get people to agree on reducing a tax.
What is hard is getting them to agree on which other tax should be increased or which item of public expenditure should be reduced.

saabsaab · 15-01-2020 12:18pm

Let's see, this proposal is

More Popular
Greener
Simpler
Revenue neutral (if done properly)
Cost saving

We can't be doing that! Can we!

Henry Ford III · 15-01-2020 12:32pm

Caquas wrote: »

Not a mandate but why dismiss their desire to pay less tax?

The central problem in this country is that our politicians claim they can solve every problem but the only way they know is to spend public money. Now that Europe blocks deficit spending, that means taxes and more taxes. Our media play the same game.

If you think this online survey is unrepresentative, let’s have a referendum. An unheard of suggestion but why not ask the people if they want this tax? This should be an election issue but instead all the parties will make unfunded promises and renege on their tax promises.

I want to pay less tax too but live rurally. This tax on fuel idea will be popular in cities for obvious reasons.

Doesn't mean it's right, or reasonable.

bazz26 · 15-01-2020 12:32pm

Maybe Leo or Michael will ring you OP in a few weeks time to see if your interested in forming a government with them, after all you have a mandate now from a few randomers on a public forum.

Don't forget to report back when you have it all sorted.

Rodin · 15-01-2020 12:34pm

Id vote for a fuel tax when water charges come back.

The more you consume, the more you should pay.
Food, electricity, fuel, phone data....

saabsaab · 15-01-2020 1:12pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Maybe Leo or Michael will ring you OP in a few weeks time to see if your interested in forming a government with them, after all you have a mandate now from a few randomers on a public forum.

Don't forget to report back when you have it all sorted.

Fair enough, you'll be the first to know!

bazz26 · 15-01-2020 1:13pm

Super.

saabsaab · 15-01-2020 7:52pm

Attack the waste of fuel and axe the tax.

User142 · 15-01-2020 9:57pm

A motoring forum that advocates merits of getting rid of motor tax for the betterment of the working class and saving Mother Earth. Not because they want to own a lovely powerful car without paying the high rates currently associated with them. A motoring forum full of Green Social Democrats.... amazing.

kirving · 15-01-2020 10:23pm

As someone suggested on another thread that a lot of our country's emissions are due to completely unnecessary SUV's....

How about a tax on the vehicle's weight, sliding scale with no bands.
Then a multiplier for age in months, with direct debit per month available.

Bigger car = more tax.
Larger EV battery = more tax. (prevents unnecessary batteries being manufactured which are never used, and encourages efficiency)

saabsaab · 15-01-2020 10:39pm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

As someone suggested on another thread that a lot of our country's emissions are due to completely unnecessary SUV's....

How about a tax on the vehicle's weight, sliding scale with no bands.
Then a multiplier for age in months, with direct debit per month available.

Bigger car = more tax.
Larger EV battery = more tax. (prevents unnecessary batteries being manufactured which are never used, and encourages efficiency)

Much simpler to just tax the fuel. The heavier the vehicle, the more fuel used. The heavier the foot, the more fuel used. Unnecessary journeys, the more fuel used.

bazz26 · 15-01-2020 10:44pm

runawaybishop · 15-01-2020 11:01pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Much simpler to just tax the fuel. The heavier the vehicle, the more fuel used. The heavier the foot, the more fuel used. Unnecessary journeys, the more fuel used.

And the 400k people that live near the border, as well as every trucking business in the country. What are you doing to do about them?

martyc5674 · 15-01-2020 11:08pm

Kevin Irving wrote: »

As someone suggested on another thread that a lot of our country's emissions are due to completely unnecessary SUV's....

How about a tax on the vehicle's weight, sliding scale with no bands.
Then a multiplier for age in months, with direct debit per month available.

Bigger car = more tax.
Larger EV battery = more tax. (prevents unnecessary batteries being manufactured which are never used, and encourages efficiency)

I’d agree with a lot of that. Way too many SUVs on the road, 4*4s shouldn’t be allowed near city’s at all. Cars are getting wider roads aren’t.

Seweryn · 15-01-2020 11:11pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

And the 400k people that live near the border, as well as every trucking business in the country. What are you doing to do about them?

They are not much different to millions of people living near the borders around Europe.

runawaybishop · 15-01-2020 11:12pm

Seweryn wrote: »

They are not much different to millions of people living near the borders around Europe.

And how do those countries deal with the loss of revenue from people crossing the border to avoid the tax on fuel?

Seweryn · 15-01-2020 11:25pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

And how do those countries deal with the loss of revenue from people crossing the border to avoid the tax on fuel?

By increasing the price they increase the revenue in their own country. Anyway, it is a non-existing problem. If it was a problem, we would know about it. Same for any other product across the boarder. Some goods sell better on one side of the boarder, other goods or services - on the other side. The market adjusts to it.

saabsaab · 15-01-2020 11:26pm

See below changes proposed already. Current system can't last..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114

'Directive 2003/96/EC on restructuring the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity sets out the EU’s rules on taxes on electricity, all propellant fuels and most fuel oils. The aforementioned Directive provides that national governments may apply lower levels of excise duty in respect of commercial diesel fuel than in respect of diesel fuel for non-commercial use, where such fuel is used by carriers or for the carriage of passengers.
Some Member States have been following such practices for years. However, the EU’s climate policy and the commitments it has taken on under the Paris Accord, as well as the Commission’s ‘Europe on the Move’ package for safe, clean and connected mobility, dictate a completely different approach, including the abolition of subsidies for fossil fuels and EU rules that will cover, for the first time, the area of CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles (trucks and buses).
CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles account for about a quarter of road transport emissions, and achieving EU targets in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions will not be possible without the inclusion of heavy-duty vehicles.
In view of the above, when does the Commission intend to amend Directive 2003/96/EC, which permits the reimbursement of excise duties paid on diesel used for commercial purposes, in order to fulfil the obligations under the Paris Accord and to bring the aforementioned Directive into line with EU climate and energy policies?'

runawaybishop · 15-01-2020 11:26pm

Seweryn wrote: »

By increasing the price they increase the revenue in their own country. Anyway, it is a non-existing problem. If it was a problem, we would know about it. Same for any other product across the boarder. Some goods sell better on one side of the boarder, other goods or services - on the other side. The market adjusts to it.

Yeah, businesses shut down, as I said earlier. That's exactly what Donegal needs.

Seweryn · 15-01-2020 11:31pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

Yeah, businesses shut down, as I said earlier. That's exactly what Donegal needs.

Jeeyzis, there are dozens of borders around Europe. Many businesses went down, but others have opened instead. They sell what customers buy.

runawaybishop · 15-01-2020 11:35pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Jeeyzis, there are dozens of borders around Europe. Many businesses went down, but others have opened instead. They sell what customers buy.

Many businesses will open, in northern Ireland. Meanwhile here the cost of fuel will have to rise even more to counter the losses across the border.

It's a **** idea. If you want to beat people that have to drive maybe consider decent public transport first.

Seweryn · 15-01-2020 11:39pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

If you want to beat people that have to drive maybe consider decent public transport first.

That is a very good idea, however seems like a futuristic vision for our Government to even consider. There is no future planning by the Government.

martyc5674 · 15-01-2020 11:56pm

saabsaab wrote: »

See below changes proposed already. Current system can't last..

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/motorists-may-be-taxed-on-distance-driven-rather-than-paying-excise-on-fuel-1.3588114

'Directive 2003/96/EC on restructuring the Community framework for the taxation of energy products and electricity sets out the EU’s rules on taxes on electricity, all propellant fuels and most fuel oils. The aforementioned Directive provides that national governments may apply lower levels of excise duty in respect of commercial diesel fuel than in respect of diesel fuel for non-commercial use, where such fuel is used by carriers or for the carriage of passengers.
Some Member States have been following such practices for years. However, the EU’s climate policy and the commitments it has taken on under the Paris Accord, as well as the Commission’s ‘Europe on the Move’ package for safe, clean and connected mobility, dictate a completely different approach, including the abolition of subsidies for fossil fuels and EU rules that will cover, for the first time, the area of CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles (trucks and buses).
CO2 emissions from heavy-duty vehicles account for about a quarter of road transport emissions, and achieving EU targets in terms of reducing greenhouse gas emissions will not be possible without the inclusion of heavy-duty vehicles.
In view of the above, when does the Commission intend to amend Directive 2003/96/EC, which permits the reimbursement of excise duties paid on diesel used for commercial purposes, in order to fulfil the obligations under the Paris Accord and to bring the aforementioned Directive into line with EU climate and energy policies?'

The sooner the better, there’s too many trucks on the road.

galwaytt · 16-01-2020 5:27pm

martyc5674 wrote: »

The sooner the better, there’s too many trucks on the road.

No, there aren't.

Unless of course you're going to give up, oh, I dunno..........food ? Clothes? Medicines ? Housebuilding ? All that stuff you just bought on Amazon and needs to get to your door ....(at the expense of the local business btw..) ?

..and that's just a start.

saabsaab · 16-01-2020 5:58pm

To be fair what he said was 'Too many' trucks. A lot of what is being transported long distance isn't really necessary stuff off the internet etc. We should buy local and use local materials more. Not buy stuff that is used a few times and then dumped, this cycle being repeated as infinitum until the earths resources are exhausted. I'd say that a lot of the time trucks are traveling empty anyhow on return journeys which is a total waste.

Seweryn · 16-01-2020 6:11pm

saabsaab wrote: »

To be fair what he said was 'Too many' trucks. A lot of what is being transported long distance isn't really necessary stuff off the internet etc. We should buy local and use local materials more. Not buy stuff that is used a few times and then dumped, this cycle being repeated as infinitum until the earths resources are exhausted. I'd say that a lot of the time trucks are traveling empty anyhow on return journeys which is a total waste.

True to some extent. Just go to your local supermarket and try to buy apples. I quite often go back with empty basket, even when there are seven varieties for sale. It is half as bad when they are from France or Germany or Poland, but they are quite often imported from Brazil, Chile, New Zealand, South Africa...
I guess they sell Italian apples in Australia.
Other nonsenses - potatoes from New Zealand, garlic from China, etc. Sure, we do not grow bananas here, but the obvious nonsense should be avoided by the customers, so there is less demand for them and as a result we have less transport on global scale and lower environmental impact.

martyc5674 · 16-01-2020 8:00pm

galwaytt wrote: »

No, there aren't.

Unless of course you're going to give up, oh, I dunno..........food ? Clothes? Medicines ? Housebuilding ? All that stuff you just bought on Amazon and needs to get to your door ....(at the expense of the local business btw..) ?

..and that's just a start.

I didn’t say remove them all.. but we have become commercial beyond belief. Buying disposable crap from god knows where just because we can, not because we need it. I stand behind that comment, there are too many trucks on the road. We certainly shouldn’t be subsidizing them.

Rodin · 17-01-2020 4:01pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

The water tax on top of the tax that you already pay towards infrastructure, property tax. And we already know how well Irish Water used the money it got

Irish Water spent over €800,000 on high-end documentary
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-water-spent-over-800-000-on-high-end-documentary-1.4133311

Irish Water staff pocket €5m in bonuses as families endure more boil notice chaos
https://extra.ie/2019/12/15/news/irish-news/irish-water-staff-bonuses-as-families

That the money was misspent is a different matter.
The philosophy of paying per consumption is unconnected to that. We waste water massively in society and we need to reduce our consumption.

mikeecho · 22-01-2020 11:00pm

colm_mcm · 22-01-2020 11:10pm

On cars up to and including 16hp

I kinda remember references in for sale ads in Buy & Sell to 8hp on cars like Starlets and Micras, can’t remember how that worked

saabsaab · 22-01-2020 11:20pm

Well done finding that. Worth pointing out that it wasn't all cars and it did happen for a while as I recall but fuel wasn't increased to cover the gap. Wasn't too long after the fuel crisis.

An Ri rua · 22-01-2020 11:50pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

And the 400k people that live near the border, as well as every trucking business in the country. What are you doing to do about them?

Internment or comply.

martyc5674 · 23-01-2020 10:42pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

On cars up to and including 16hp

I kinda remember references in for sale ads in Buy & Sell to 8hp on cars like Starlets and Micras, can’t remember how that worked

IIRC every 125cc was considered 1 hp. At least that’s how it was explained to me way back, never got an official statement on it though so I’d say it could be hear say!

mikeecho · 25-01-2020 12:27am

martyc5674 wrote: »

IIRC every 125cc was considered 1 hp. At least that’s how it was explained to me way back, never got an official statement on it though so I’d say it could be hear say!

If that's the case, then a 2L would have been 16hp.

Madness

Has anyone got the specs of popular mid 1970s cars, what HP / Displacement did they have?

stimpson · 25-01-2020 12:50am

mikeecho wrote: »

If that's the case, then a 2L would have been 16hp.

Madness

Has anyone got the specs of popular mid 1970s cars, what HP / Displacement did they have?

A mk2 cortina 1600e was 68hp.

mondeo · 25-01-2020 1:09pm

Here's a motor tax solution, pack your bags and emigrate to a land with a fairer tax system and cheaper fuel. Hows Dubai sound ?

Ireland will never have a fair tax system, today you will be shafted, same as next year and in 10 years time.. And it wont make a difference if you go electric either. All electric car owners will pay much greater tax in the next decade to.

Ireland will never have an exotic car culture because of our shtty high taxes.. Its amazing how just across the pond there are Lambos and Ferraris everywhere...Parts of London are really nice to walk around just to see whats parked on the street.

martyc5674 · 25-01-2020 3:38pm

mondeo wrote: »

Here's a motor tax solution, pack your bags and emigrate to a land with a fairer tax system and cheaper fuel. Hows Dubai sound ?

It sounds fantastic until you dig a little deeper and discover the level of slavery going on there.

monkeysnapper · 25-01-2020 3:44pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Standard rate of 100 for petrol
Standard rate of 200 for diesel
Standard rate of 50 for ev

e.

You forgot cyclists there ....

Seweryn · 25-01-2020 4:45pm

monkeysnapper wrote: »

You forgot cyclists there ....

... And you forgot pedestrians.

AndrewJRenko · 25-01-2020 6:11pm

mondeo wrote: »

Its amazing how just across the pond there are Lambos and Ferraris everywhere...Parts of London are really nice to walk around just to see whats parked on the street.

Do you think it might have anything to do with how Russian oligarch billionaires and Saudi oil sheiks are buying up all the good houses in London, more than the car tax system?

Caquas · 25-01-2020 10:08pm

mikeecho wrote: »

Great find!

Amazing how this has entered into our political mythology as an example of “auction politics”. No one ever mentions the main reason we had a crisis a few years later - public spending went out of control.

No, it’s always tax cuts that are “reckless” but no spending proposal is too lavish to find political backers, no social problem which cannot call forth more spending.

Have a look at the parties’ manifestos: regardless of their political hue, all are chock-full of increased spending with at most a few tax cuts thrown in for balance. Of course, the tax promises will be the first to be dropped if the economy faces headwinds. Whatever the “green agenda” actually does, it will increase the taxes will government takes from motorists, even the most eco-friendly.

AndrewJRenko · 26-01-2020 11:57am

Caquas wrote: »

Whatever the “green agenda” actually does, it will increase the taxes will government takes from motorists, even the most eco-friendly.

There are no eco-friendly motorists. Even EVs cause significant pollution with tyre particles and brake particles, along with the damage caused by manufacturing and disposal.

Some motorists are less eco-harmful than others.

Joe 90 · 26-01-2020 5:19pm

I do remember the post 77 election car tax. Under 2 litres it was a fiver and over that riding on some sort of exponential curve. The Irish governments, no matter which flavour have always hated to have any of the common people in any sort of desirable car.

They did talk about 8 horsepower, 12 horsepower, 16 horsepower cars in those days. It does look like it was one horsepower per ,125 cc but it possibly could be related to the old RAC equivalence formula. It was not quit directly related to engine capacity and it favoured long stroke engines hence the number of low revving long stroke engines that came from the British manufactures.

Funny enough if you talked about BHP to most people in Ireland in those days the would tell you to STFU and talk about normal horsepower.

stimpson · 27-01-2020 11:00am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There are no eco-friendly motorists.

Should I swap my plugin hybrid for a V8 then?

By that logic there is no eco friendly anything. The only way to be truly green is to top yourself.

AndrewJRenko · 02-02-2020 1:25pm

stimpson wrote: »

Should I swap my plugin hybrid for a V8 then?

By that logic there is no eco friendly anything. The only way to be truly green is to top yourself.

Did you miss this bit of my post?

"Some motorists are less eco-harmful than others. "

saabsaab · 10-02-2020 7:56pm

Green party with 10 seats now. It looks like there will be a 'Green' government whatever happens. Less reliance on fossil fuels hopefully.

stimpson · 10-02-2020 8:10pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Green party with 10 seats now. It looks like there will be a 'Green' government whatever happens. Less reliance on fossil fuels hopefully.

Left wing government = lots more tax.

bazz26 · 10-02-2020 8:14pm

Lol, getting ahead of yourself there Eamon.

All the Greens know how to do is increase taxes in the name of climate change. If you think they will do away with motor tax and just stick it on fuel then you really are as out of touch with reality as thinking this poll gives a mandate. They will increase both.

firstlight · 10-02-2020 8:19pm

Should be a flat rate across the board
We pay enough tax at the pumps as it it
Whoever drives more pays more
Between overpriced car tax
Fuel
Insurance
I think the Irish motorist pays enough tax for the dunghole roads we use

Abolish car tax

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