Abolish car tax

Idbatterim · 10-01-2020 7:45pm

theguzman wrote: »

A country where the Government doesn't rob over 70% of your lifetime income on tax and a country where criminals should face justice, a country where you either get healthcare from the Government or else you pay for it privately. We have a disgraceful situation where you pay taxation through the nose at Nordic levels and get American style services. We get crap US style public transport, even worse healthcare and super liberal on crime. Basically unless you are on a €100k per year here you would be better off on welfare.

YEAH! many pay a marginal tax rate of FIFTY percent over a pittance and I really have to ask, what do you get for it here? third world infrastructure, rip off housing, child care, insurance. E60 a gp visit. FIFTY percent of the population receiving some form of social welfare!

The country where dreams go to die!

Figerty · 10-01-2020 7:48pm

Silent Running wrote: »

Electric car driver here. Fire away and put the motor tax on fuel.

Electricity is fuel....it's only a matter of time before they come for you!

I'd buy shares in electric companies now.. the prices of electricity will rise when the motorists are locked into one energy type.

theguzman · 10-01-2020 7:49pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

YEAH! many pay a marginal tax rate of FIFTY percent over a pittance and I really have to ask, what do you get for it here? third world infrastructure, rip off housing, child care, insurance. E60 a gp visit. FIFTY percent of the population receiving some form of social welfare!

The country where dreams go to die!

PAYE is one thing, VAT, USC, VRT, CAT Inheritance tax + a whole lot more, it is an absolute fortune on whatever you save or have for children or benefactors at the end. I know we are straying away from Motoring but I think my 70% may even be too conservative.

saabsaab · 10-01-2020 7:50pm

'Gross motor tax receipts for 2014, at €1.159 billion, increased by €41 million (3.65%) on 2013 (€1.118 billion).' Source Journal - Dail Questions

Probably less since then as more lower tax vehices on the road now. So I don't think 25% increase is accurate.

Anyway we are paying as a country either way and this way is simpler and fairer.

bazz26 · 10-01-2020 8:21pm

saabsaab wrote: »

How do we reduce the dependence on fossil fuels? Encourage a switch to electric or fuel efficient vehicles. I would say extra excise duties is part of the answer.

Nope, again taxing solves nothing. Roads congested with electric cars are still roads congested. A better vision maybe is to invest in transport & communication infrastructure, etc so that people are less reliant on their car but that would take away a dependable revenue stream.

Idbatterim wrote: »

creating rip off housing, forcing people into commutes or to save a small bit on their mortgage, to spend that amount on a car with big depreciation , finance, tolls potentially and fuel costs etc aswell. Is just idiocy...

Most people don't decide to live far away or commute by choice. They live where they can afford to live and it's generally cheaper to live further away from cities. We had a government sitting by watching all this unfold and happily watch the exchequer fill up during the Celtic Tiger era. Not so easy to undo it now.

Silent Running wrote: »

Electric car driver here. Fire away and put the motor tax on fuel.

Be careful what you wish for there. Penalizing people to encourage them to buy electric cars will work to an extent but it also just brings forward new ways of taxing those cars. The revenue stream from the motorist needs to be maintained and I'm sure the boys in Leinster House are already dreaming up all sorts of ways of taxing them when they become more popular.

User142 · 10-01-2020 8:35pm

Abolishing motor tax Just seems like a huge tax cut for people who live in cities and need cars the least of us which includes myself. It also completely removes the disincentive of a tax on those of us who want the luxury of owning large cars which I'm kind of guessing is the actual point.

If it came in I definitely be looking for a larger more powerful car as I do feck all mileage.

Pops_20 · 10-01-2020 9:34pm

User142 wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax Just seems like a huge tax cut for people who live in cities and need cars the least of us which includes myself. It also completely removes the disincentive of a tax on those of us who want the luxury of owning large cars which I'm kind of guessing is the actual point.

If it came in I definitely be looking for a larger more powerful car as I do feck all mileage.

There should never have been a disincentive for buying these large luxury cars through the taxation in the first place.

Shure who do you think you are with your big fancy car? What would you need that for?

That attitude is why we cant have nice things.

At least if the tax was on the fuel youd pay for what you pollute, and not 2350 euro for a couple of thousand miles.

Irish Steve · 10-01-2020 10:06pm

Figerty wrote: »

Electricity is fuel....it's only a matter of time before they come for you!

I'd buy shares in electric companies now.. the prices of electricity will rise when the motorists are locked into one energy type.

I wish. It will be FAR worse than that. The harsh reality is that in a very short time, if the people making the decisions get their way, we will be using electricity for everything, oil boilers are already on their way out, watch this space on gas, so that means there will be no alternatives other than electric for home heating, and it won't be long before gas will be banned for cooking, the UK are already making noises in that direction.

So, we will all be totally dependent on single fuel for heat, lights, cooking and travel, public and private. Watch the pricing go through the roof!

I can also remember the massive pain we suffered in the UK when the miners were on strike, we had periods of up to 16 hours a day with no power, and I swore then that I'd never again be dependent on a single fuel source for the house, but with the way things are going, I may not get that option in future.

How much money will you bet on the relevant politicians passing legislation that will completely outlaw ANY strikes in ESB and related companies? The ability to paralyse the economy will prove to be a much too tempting target for the unions, and ESB are already well ahead of the game for that reason.

How will we deal with weather conditions that mean no wind to power the vast number of wind turbines that are going to become essential to the

provision of power?

How will we ensure that there will be power available to meet the demand in the event of severe weather conditions, either storm or snow or similar. It's one thing to have no electricity for several days if you have alternative resources, it will be another altogether if there are no alternatives, and the power is disrupted for a number of days?

How will we store the power needed for things like vehicles, does anyone really believe that there are enough rare metal sources available to allow the production of the massive numbers of batteries that will be needed just for road transport?

Has anyone actually done realistic carbon footprint analysis of the cost of producing all these new vehicles and their batteries? I suspect the answers might be very unpalatable if the research is done properly.

Sorry for the rant, this issue is way wider ranging than just the question of road tax or not on fuel, but the reality is that all I see right now is a bunch of political short termers who are waving lots of big sticks, but not providing any sort of carrot to entice people like me to actually go in the direction they want, and if I'm honest, I'm not sure that the people making the decisions right now actually know too much about the direction they are going, or what the real implications of their plans will be.

Figerty · 10-01-2020 10:12pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

I wish. It will be FAR worse than that. The harsh reality is that in a very short time, if the people making the decisions get their way, we will be using electricity for everything, oil boilers are already on their way out, watch this space on gas, so that means there will be no alternatives other than electric for home heating, and it won't be long before gas will be banned for cooking, the UK are already making noises in that direction.

So, we will all be totally dependent on single fuel for heat, lights, cooking and travel, public and private. Watch the pricing go through the roof!

I can also remember the massive pain we suffered in the UK when the miners were on strike, we had periods of up to 16 hours a day with no power, and I swore then that I'd never again be dependent on a single fuel source for the house, but with the way things are going, I may not get that option in future.

How much money will you bet on the relevant politicians passing legislation that will completely outlaw ANY strikes in ESB and related companies? The ability to paralyse the economy will prove to be a much too tempting target for the unions, and ESB are already well ahead of the game for that reason.

How will we deal with weather conditions that mean no wind to power the vast number of wind turbines that are going to become essential to the

provision of power?

How will we ensure that there will be power available to meet the demand in the event of severe weather conditions, either storm or snow or similar. It's one thing to have no electricity for several days if you have alternative resources, it will be another altogether if there are no alternatives, and the power is disrupted for a number of days?

How will we store the power needed for things like vehicles, does anyone really believe that there are enough rare metal sources available to allow the production of the massive numbers of batteries that will be needed just for road transport?

Has anyone actually done realistic carbon footprint analysis of the cost of producing all these new vehicles and their batteries? I suspect the answers might be very unpalatable if the research is done properly.

Sorry for the rant, this issue is way wider ranging than just the question of road tax or not on fuel, but the reality is that all I see right now is a bunch of political short termers who are waving lots of big sticks, but not providing any sort of carrot to entice people like me to actually go in the direction they want, and if I'm honest, I'm not sure that the people making the decisions right now actually know too much about the direction they are going, or what the real implications of their plans will be.

Well I didn't expect that response, but I agree with nearly everything you have said! If electric cars are going to be so great that they make fossil fuels less attractive, then I can see them taking over naturally. Taxing diesel out of existence is foolish. The manufacturers are already doing it.
I'll happily drive an electric in the future. Not yet though.

What I can see is solar panels on every farm shed, factory etc in the country so there is a element of self sufficiency.

We are heading for an energy monopoly type situation with electricity.

Ubbquittious · 10-01-2020 11:20pm

I am voting no for the simple reason that they should get rid of property tax first. A fecking roof over your head is a basic necessity unlike a car

mikeecho · 11-01-2020 12:38am

I don't have the exact details to hand, but back in the late 70's the then Taoiseach abolished motor tax. ( Those of you old enough might remember the Axe The Tax car stickers)

The tax was abolished and a few pence was added to fuel.
The more you drive, the more you pay.

Simples.

However, motor tax was reintroduced a short while after, and guess what.. the few extra pence on fuel stayed.

As Shirley Bassey sang "it's all just a little bit of History repeating."

In more recent times, (1996) a 2c levy was put on all fuel in order to ensure Ireland could meet its obligations regarding having enough fuel in stock.

You can read about that here.

https://www.thejournal.ie/levy-oil-climate-action-plan-4845413-Oct2019/

Spoiler: that 2c ain't coming off fuel.

saabsaab · 11-01-2020 12:42am

Ubbquittious wrote: »

I am voting no for the simple reason that they should get rid of property tax first. A fecking roof over your head is a basic necessity unlike a car

A separate issue to the one here. Anyway, where would the finance to fill the gap come from?

Ubbquittious · 11-01-2020 12:47am

saabsaab wrote: »

A separate issue to the one here. Anyway, where would the finance to fill the gap come from?

From telling a few overpaid contractors to feck off and doing whatever they used to do "ourselves" and on the cheap.

11-01-2020 12:56am

ednwireland wrote: »

great if you can afford a new car and screw everyone else! how about taxing electricity from home car chargers as we need to get all types of vehicles off the road

Yawn.

What a tiresome argument and one that will simply not win out.

What we need to do is tax all modes of transport, from aluminium framed bicycles with oil based tyres and tubes, plastic and steel cables, hydraulic oil filled brake systems and so on through to buses and trains and everything in between.

Motor tax for motors, bicycle tax for bicycles. The high energy consumption involved producing materials and manufacturing of leisure machinery such as the lightweight road bikes seen all over the country is not without heavy environmental cost.

Everyone should have to pay tax on their mode of transportation.

But we NEED transportation so to suggest the goal would be removing all vehicles from the roads is ridiculously unrealistic at best and downright stupid at worst.

bazz26 · 11-01-2020 2:55am

Nobody suggested removing all cars from the road. The long term aim should be to reduce the number of cars and the dependency of the car as being the main/sole form of transport. Replacing 1000s of ICE cars with 1000s of electric cars doesn't solve congestion. The air might be cleaner but your still stuck in a traffic jam going nowhere. Nothing ridiculously unrealistic or downright stupid about that.

The QuietMan · 11-01-2020 10:17am

The same old argument comes up. Motor tax was previously abolished and reintroduced. As backward as this country is, motor tax would be abolished, the tax placed on fuel, a few budgets in motor tax would be brought back again and the previous increase maintained. Pointless talking about something that will never happen. What will happen though is the price of electricity will steadily rise as more end more people go electric

colm_mcm · 11-01-2020 11:48am

And those that have no electric car will still be paying more for electricity.

BailMeOut · 11-01-2020 11:59am

saabsaab wrote: »

In the context of an upcoming GE if a party was to include this on a manifesto would there be support?

Abolish car tax replace it with a flat registration yearly fee say 50 p.a. then transfer the shortfall onto fossil fuels at the pump. Much fairer the more you burn the more you pay. Overall there would be no loss to the exchequer. Could also apply to electricity. Much greener policy too..

Poll attached

not possible unless Northern Ireland implments the same policy at the same time as having a massive tax imbalance between the two states would create a massive blackmarket.

saabsaab · 11-01-2020 12:18pm

The QuietMan wrote: »

The same old argument comes up. Motor tax was previously abolished and reintroduced. As backward as this country is, motor tax would be abolished, the tax placed on fuel, a few budgets in motor tax would be brought back again and the previous increase maintained. Pointless talking about something that will never happen. What will happen though is the price of electricity will steadily rise as more end more people go electric

The current motor tax systems are out of date cumbersome and unfair. This is the simplest solution as well as the greenest, fairest and most adaptable. It wasn't tried before and it isn't 1977, any government that re-introduced after would be kicked out at the next election. I agree Electricity cost will rise as will all fuel costs anyway.

Irish Steve · 11-01-2020 12:30pm

In theory there could also be significant savings in the state services, but they are permanent staff, so the only thing the councils could do is redeploy the people to other departments, so not a saving as such.

saabsaab · 11-01-2020 1:20pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

In theory there could also be significant savings in the state services, but they are permanent staff, so the only thing the councils could do is redeploy the people to other departments, so not a saving as such.

Could still be if some take early retirement or can be sent where otherwise new staff are needed customs or HSE?

runawaybishop · 11-01-2020 1:24pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

In theory there could also be significant savings in the state services, but they are permanent staff, so the only thing the councils could do is redeploy the people to other departments, so not a saving as such.

20% of the civil service are retiring in the next 5-10 years.

saabsaab · 11-01-2020 2:00pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

20% of the civil service are retiring in the next 5-10 years.

Yes, and the work they do will need to be abolished, automated or streamlined.

martyc5674 · 11-01-2020 2:11pm

Hardly shocking that most on a motoring forum want to abolish motor tax. The reality is we need to face up to the problems associated with fossil fuels. Electric is only part of the answer, I would be in favor of increasing motor tax across the board if the money was fast tracked into improving public and sustainable transport and maybe a bit of education on same. There is a lot of undoing to be done aswell. Planning over the Celtic tiger has a lot to answer for and undoing has to start and will be painful. Society needs to become less car dependent. Replacing fossil with electric suits the government as it means the current planning mess/urban sprawl problems can be kicked down the road, which IMO is not good enough.
Marty

Caquas · 11-01-2020 2:46pm

martyc5674 wrote: »

Hardly shocking that most on a motoring forum want to abolish motor tax....

No, the shocking truth is that most posters on this thread have not supported the proposal to abolish the annual motor tax. Even those who do not reject the idea outright seem resigned to the notion that motor tax would be re-introduced by stealth anyway.

Why should the government collect a hefty annual tax on every motor-vehicle when taxes on fuel accounts for 60% of fuel prices at the pump? (This rate will only increase as we try to reduce CO2 emissions.)

And the government collects VAT and VRT which makes vehicles exorbitantly expensive.

We in Ireland seemed resigned to high taxation. Governments know that it is difficult to introduce new taxes (e.g. property tax), so they hold on to established taxes even if they become unconscionably regressive. When motor tax was introduced, cars were a rare luxury. Nowadays, in the absence of alternatives, almost every Irish family has a car.

Motor tax imposes a serious burden on lower-income families but have you heard a single politician raise this issue? No, because every Irish politician believes in tax and spend. Only when an election comes round ( i.e. the coming weeks), will you hear promises of tax cuts and we seem resigned to the pattern that tax promises are made to be broken. FF are constantly reminded of their abolition of motor tax as if that caused the crazy budget deficits in the early 1980s. The deficits were caused by reckless expansion of the public sector and failure to collect income tax from farmers and the self-employed. But high taxation was the “cure” which destroyed us until “Mac the Knife” cut spending and collected income taxes in the late 1980s.

And remember that the motor insurance racket has grown into a form of privatised taxation which politicians will only wring their hands about.

martyc5674 · 11-01-2020 3:22pm

Caquas wrote: »

Why should the government collect a hefty annual tax on every motor-vehicle when taxes on fuel accounts for 60% of fuel prices at the pump? (This rate will only increase as we try to reduce CO2 emissions.)

Because as you drive you pollute, we pollute more as we drive more, reducing the air quality for everyone. Causing serious illness and placing additional burden on an already creaking healthcare system, and our taxes fund this.

At least current system carries an incentive for lower polluting per km, albeit post 08.

I’m not sure about where you live but I have noticed that the air quality where I live is getting progressively worse.

Seweryn · 11-01-2020 3:32pm

martyc5674 wrote: »

Hardly shocking that most on a motoring forum want to abolish motor tax. The reality is we need to face up to the problems associated with fossil fuels.

Abolishing motor tax would actually help reducing fossil fuel use. Once all taxes are included in fuel, you pay for the actual use and not for the ownership of the car.

Caquas · 11-01-2020 3:33pm

martyc5674 wrote: »

Because as you drive you pollute, we pollute more as we drive more, reducing the air quality for everyone. Causing serious illness and placing additional burden on an already creaking healthcare system, and our taxes fund this.
I’m not sure about where you live but I have noticed that the air quality where I live is getting progressively worse.

Irrelevant to motor tax which bears no relation to how much you drive.

Perhaps you feel 60% of fuel costs is not enough of a deterrent. That’s a separate debate.

The health crisis gets worse as we pump more billions into the HSE but is constantly trotted out as justification for unlimited taxation. Another red herring, we are not discussing the overall level of taxation which has reached unprecedented levels. (The Irish media talk about this as if it is an achievement because they are “liberals” i.e. with other people’s money.)

martyc5674 · 11-01-2020 3:39pm

Seweryn wrote: »

Abolishing motor tax would actually help reducing fossil fuel use. Once all taxes are included in fuel, you pay for the actual use and not for the ownership of the car.

Possibly, but the current system at least gives an incentive for choosing a car which pollutes less per km. Just sticking all the tax on the fuel doesn’t discourage driving something which pollutes more per km.
Eg an Eurostar 3 versus a Eurostar 5 car that both deliver the same mpg, the Eurostar 5 pollutes less.

martyc5674 · 11-01-2020 3:44pm

Caquas wrote: »

Irrelevant to motor tax which bears no relation to how much you drive.

Perhaps you feel 60% of fuel costs is not enough of a deterrent. That’s a separate debate.

The health crisis gets worse as we pump more billions into the HSE but is constantly trotted out as justification for unlimited taxation. Another red herring, we are not discussing the overall level of taxation which has reached unprecedented levels. (The Irish media talk about this as if it is an achievement because they are “liberals” i.e. with other people’s money.)

We need to pollute less. Pumping billions into the HSE does not directly impact your health, exhaust gases do however.
If the levy at the pumps was reduced from 60 to 20% in the morning I think you’d find more fuel would be purchased/burned, equaling greater pollution.

Abolish car tax

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