Abolish car tax

mikeecho · 11-01-2020 9:52pm

Let's scrap motor tax

And introduce a yearly motor registration fee.

Let's say, we calculate the amount payable by the level of co2 , or perhaps the power output, or perhaps by the weight of the vehicle.

No .no.. let's have
a fee for co2,
a fee for weight,
a fee for the power output,
and another charge for how closely you are located to a city centre.

And shur, just add extra tax to fossil fuel while we're at it.

And then if you convert your car to LPG, well.. that'll increase the weight of your car, so that means you pay more tax as well.

Interested.. look up motoring in the Netherlands.

Caquas · 11-01-2020 10:15pm

martyc5674 wrote: »

Sorry but your backtracking... you clearly said it was based on engine size.....

Yes, the Greens made a huge song and dance about their new emissions based tax in 2008. No more would we speak of engine size, now we would incentivise low emission cars, regardless of engine size. At the forthcoming election, let’s remind the voters about the Greens’ genius manoeuvre. Everyone who bought a diesel car back then will rush to the polls!

This makes no difference to the issue were trying to discuss: motor tax is excessive, regressive and should be abolished. Most posters here shrugged their shoulders - no point in abolition, the politicians would sneak it back in, like they did before. You and others argued that it helped reduce air pollution. I say BS to that.

Motor tax was introduced many years ago to tax a luxury but it was retained and massively increased even though a car is an everyday necessity for most families, especially those outside Dublin. Of course, politicians like to preach to us about the moral incentives in taxes - cut pollution, reduce drunkenness, stop smoking - and sometimes it’s true but that is not their real motive. Everywhere and always, the primary purpose of taxation is to bring money into the politicians’ hands. Have you ever heard a politician say we should cut some tax in order to incentivise some behaviour? No, weirdly enough, the only thing politicians do to change our behaviour is to impose taxes.

Our government sucked up twice as much of our money last year compared to 2010. What did they do with that €60,000,000,00? Did public service double in quantity or quality. That should be the central issue of the general election. Instead, all the politicians will try to outbid each other with schemes to spend ever more money on the HSE and various white elephants. Did you say rural broadband?

martyc5674 · 12-01-2020 12:48am

Caquas wrote: »

Yes, the Greens made a huge song and dance about their new emissions based tax in 2008. No more would we speak of engine size, now we would incentivise low emission cars, regardless of engine size. At the forthcoming election, let’s remind the voters about the Greens’ genius manoeuvre. Everyone who bought a diesel car back then will rush to the polls!

This makes no difference to the issue were trying to discuss: motor tax is excessive, regressive and should be abolished. Most posters here shrugged their shoulders - no point in abolition, the politicians would sneak it back in, like they did before. You and others argued that it helped reduce air pollution. I say BS to that.

Motor tax was introduced many years ago to tax a luxury but it was retained and massively increased even though a car is an everyday necessity for most families, especially those outside Dublin. Of course, politicians like to preach to us about the moral incentives in taxes - cut pollution, reduce drunkenness, stop smoking - and sometimes it’s true but that is not their real motive. Everywhere and always, the primary purpose of taxation is to bring money into the politicians’ hands. Have you ever heard a politician say we should cut some tax in order to incentivise some behaviour? No, weirdly enough, the only thing politicians do to change our behaviour is to impose taxes.

Our government sucked up twice as much of our money last year compared to 2010. What did they do with that €60,000,000,00? Did public service double in quantity or quality. That should be the central issue of the general election. Instead, all the politicians will try to outbid each other with schemes to spend ever more money on the HSE and various white elephants. Did you say rural broadband?

Your contradicting yourself over and over.
Statements like “ motor tax is excessive, regressive and should be abolished” with nothing to back it serve no purpose.

If we abolished motor tax you’d see a huge decline in air quality in our cities such is our car dependency.
We have put cars before people in our cities, our big cities are really unpleasant places to walk around- spend time in because of this.

We need to create clean and sustainable transport infrastructure and I think that money should at least partly come from current motorists who enjoy the freedom of driving wherever they like, where do you think the money should come from?

Bruthal · 12-01-2020 12:52am

martyc5674 wrote: »

I think that money should at least partly come from current motorists who enjoy the freedom of driving wherever they like,

Do you drive where you like?

martyc5674 · 12-01-2020 1:36am

Bruthal wrote: »

Do you drive where you like?

I do sometimes because there is nothing to stop me. I try to cycle whenever possible but very often I’ll take the car into town when I could walk, in fact I’m just in the door from such a trip.

martyc5674 · 12-01-2020 1:41am

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Lol where are you getting that from?

What are you asking about in particular?

You must be under a rock if you can’t see that the air quality would be worse if there were less euro 5/6 cars on the road and in their place were euro 3/4. Because this is exactly what would happen if we abolished car tax.
Or is it that you can’t see that our cities are strangled by cars?

Caquas · 12-01-2020 1:50am

martyc5674 wrote: »

Your contradicting yourself over and over.
Statements like “ motor tax is excessive, regressive and should be abolished” with nothing to back it serve no purpose.

If we abolished motor tax you’d see a huge decline in air quality in our cities such is our car dependency.
We have put cars before people in our cities, our big cities are really unpleasant places to walk around- spend time in because of this.

We need to create clean and sustainable transport infrastructure and I think that money should at least partly come from current motorists who enjoy the freedom of driving wherever they like, where do you think the money should come from?

I have been entirely consistent. It is easy to see that motor tax is regressive for the reason I have already explained repeatedly: it falls on those who need a car regardless of their ability to pay. If you don’t think e.g. that €750 a year is excessive for an ordinary car, you must have a vendetta against car owners.

I support and use public transport and alternatives to cars but, in any future scenario, people in rural Ireland will need cars.

Even with €60,000,000 in taxes annually, politicians believe every problem should be fixed by more tax and more public expenditure. This election is the time to break that habit and motor tax is a good place to start. And tackle the insurance scam.

martyc5674 · 12-01-2020 2:00am

Caquas wrote: »

I have been entirely consistent. It is easy to see that motor tax is regressive for the reason I have already explained repeatedly: it falls on those who need a car regardless of their ability to pay. If you don’t think e.g. that €750 a year is excessive for an ordinary car, you must have a vendetta against car owners.
.

It falls on those who choose to pollute, your argument held some weight up until about 5 years ago, but now there is no reason to have a car by choice where you are paying too much for the road tax. I have 08 diesel car in the yard... running perfect “chape tax”, I’d get maybe 500 quid for it, and it’s cheap to run.

Figerty · 12-01-2020 2:06am

Caquas wrote: »

I have been entirely consistent. It is easy to see that motor tax is regressive for the reason I have already explained repeatedly: it falls on those who need a car regardless of their ability to pay. If you don’t think e.g. that €750 a year is excessive for an ordinary car, you must have a vendetta against car owners.

I support and use public transport and alternatives to cars but, in any future scenario, people in rural Ireland will need cars.

Even with €60,000,000 in taxes annually, politicians believe every problem should be fixed by more tax and more public expenditure. This election is the time to break that habit and motor tax is a good place to start. And tackle the insurance scam.

Lets all get a little real here. In the main, few people in Ireland drives for 'fun'. Most people are getting somewhere with a purpose. Put a tax on fuel will not change driving habits for most people. If you doing low mileage, then tax on fuel doesn't really matter. If you are doing high mileage it's probably work related. Add to that a car is one of the worst financial investments you can make.

However, Road tax rates on cars do majorly influence buying decisions. Tax rates based on emissions does work. VW and other being creative on emissions undermined this. Right now, there is major shift away from Diesel because a lot of low mileage diesel drivers are having DPF problems. They bought the wrong car. They should have bought petrol and possibly electric.

Any change to tax will be a token green gesture. The greens may not get the vote they expect if the electorate feel they will hit their pocket. Climate change is everyone else's problem!

joeysoap · 12-01-2020 2:13am

I live in a border area with at least 6 fore courts over the border within a few kms. Bring it on and watch the revenue from norm motorists drop like a stone.

Markcheese · 12-01-2020 11:34am

So it's euro six and ad blue now ... With particulate filters ....
A good few years ago the old smoky diesels ,weren't very responsive ,produced a lot of particulate (smoke ?) ,But not much nox ( I think ) , the cat largely takes care of the carbon monoxide .
..

So would the holy Grail of diesel be a big old peugot 1.9 with a really good particulate filter and sod all acceleration ?

decky1 · 12-01-2020 11:37am

maybe property tax as well.

Idbatterim · 12-01-2020 11:40am

Massively increase motor tax on new petrol and particularly diesel from the next budget. Use it to reduce price of bev. What is the point of still encouraging diesel use , even if their emissions are a little lower!

martyc5674 · 12-01-2020 12:03pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Massively increase motor tax on new petrol and particularly diesel from the next budget. Use it to reduce price of bev. What is the point of still encouraging diesel use , even if their emissions are a little lower!

I agree with you re massive increase in tax on new ICE, but the money should be put into infrastructure, not encouraging people over to EVs, swapping ICE for EVs is not the right thing. We need less cars on the road, so the need for ownership needs to be reduced.

bazz26 · 12-01-2020 1:57pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Massively increase motor tax on new petrol and particularly diesel from the next budget. Use it to reduce price of bev. What is the point of still encouraging diesel use , even if their emissions are a little lower!

Why should extra tax payers money be used to subsidized to make EVs cheaper? Let the greedy manufacturers reduce their prices if they want to sell them. 38k including subsidies, for the Kona thing just because it's electric. You can buy a regular petrol one for 22k. You would want to be doing mega mileage to make that 16k difference back and I wouldn't fancy doing that driving in a Kona. 38k would actually buy you a nice 1 year old BMW 530e and I know which one I'd rather be spending my money on.

Caquas · 12-01-2020 2:29pm

decky1 wrote: »

maybe property tax as well.

A very different issue and, unlike motor tax, I would support a well-managed local property tax which restored some democracy to spending on local services, provided the tax rates were set so that ordinary families got a fair return in terms of local services, particularly waste disposal. The tax should be progressive I.e. those in bigger houses should pay more. Local tax would avoid the problems caused by massive differences in house prices across the country.

The current LPT is a national tax in all but name. No wonder Leo wanted FF to sign up! FF can fairly be blamed for abolishing rates on domestic dwellings in 1977, eviscerating local revenues.

mikeecho · 12-01-2020 9:13pm

As long as there is a need for cars, buses and trucks.
Motor tax will exist.

It's tried and tested.
It's a simple tax.
It's easily enforced.

It's not going away.

Yes early adopters will benefit from low rates.. diesels in 2008.
EVs recently.

But eventually, EVs will be paying big motor tax, and hefty charging costs.

Government need income, and the motorist is an easy touch. (no matter where in the world you are)

Diesel fuel isn't going away, it'll still be needed for farm machinery, shipping, generators, etc for years to come.. long beyond 2030.

saabsaab · 13-01-2020 12:19am

Tried tested and found wanting.
Tax on fuel is simpler, 10 to 15 cent per litre extra.
Not so easily enforced as it would be as an add on to fuel, no GS involvement saving time.

As for not going away watch this space.

Yes I agree diesel is not going away anytime soon for many purposes and Governments need revenue.

sk8board · 13-01-2020 1:37pm

I'm all for the polluter pays, however FG see their support base as the folk who 'get up early in the morning' - those same people do high mileage - not a snowballs chance of motor tax being loaded on to fuel in the next election cycle

saabsaab · 13-01-2020 2:12pm

Wasn't thinking FG but other parties might. It would be a sure fire vote getter. All would get the removal of the car tax. The current system penalizes those who do less mileage or use more fuel efficient cars!

rabbitinlights · 13-01-2020 2:33pm

Wait until the government realise how much the disposal of EV batteries will cost them and the infrastructure needed to recycle them.

If you want to invest in some growth businesses, look up companies that recycle high capacity LiPo batteries, Retriev Technologies is the market leader (Previously Toxco).

saabsaab · 13-01-2020 3:14pm

BEVs are not a complete solution as you say, recycling them etc. A new power source is needed for a whole transfer to them. People should remember that there will be fines ( real money) for non achievement of our carbon targets and this is a good way to start.

Better to hit it at the source of pollution than in general taxation and encourage better use of f fuels.

kaahooters · 13-01-2020 3:18pm

saabsaab wrote: »

BEVs are not a complete solution as you say, recycling them etc. A new power source is needed for a whole transfer to them. People should remember that there will be fines ( real money) for non achievement of our carbon targets and this is a good way to start.

Better to hit it at the source of pollution than in general taxation and encourage better use of f fuels.

were already paying the "fines".

https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2019/0515/1049589-carbon-credits/

kaahooters · 13-01-2020 3:19pm

rabbitinlights wrote: »

Wait until the government realise how much the disposal of EV batteries will cost them and the infrastructure needed to recycle them.

If you want to invest in some growth businesses, look up companies that recycle high capacity LiPo batteries, Retriev Technologies is the market leader (Previously Toxco).

the batteries have nothing to do with the government, they go back to the oem provider for referb mate.

saabsaab · 13-01-2020 3:24pm

kaahooters wrote: »

were already paying the "fines".

https://www.rte.ie/news/environment/2019/0515/1049589-carbon-credits/

True and we will be paying more so best to tackle it now.

bazz26 · 13-01-2020 6:09pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Wasn't thinking FG but other parties might. It would be a sure fire vote getter. All would get the removal of the car tax. The current system penalizes those who do less mileage or use more fuel efficient cars!

How much is your average fuel efficient car costing to tax annually these days? I'd imagine the majority are around €190/€200 a year. That's alot cheaper than they were on the old engine based tax system 12 years ago.

If the purpose of your canvasing here for these cars to be motor tax free then it certainly is never going to happen in our lifetime. Slapping 15c a litre on fuel will simply not cover the shortfall left by removing motor tax. Motor tax is source of revenue that helps fund various public services. As long as there are cars there will be motor tax.

Taxing those who have to commute long distances out of existence to satisfy those who use their car occasionally or owns a second car as a hobby solves nothing. It just drives a bigger wedge between those who cannot afford and those who can.

Caquas · 13-01-2020 6:55pm

http://http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=9_21689112_53_13-01-2020

Caquas wrote: »

.....

Motor tax was introduced many years ago to tax a luxury but it was retained and massively increased even though a car is an everyday necessity for most families, especially those outside Dublin. Of course, politicians like to preach to us about the moral incentives in taxes - cut pollution, reduce drunkenness, stop smoking - and sometimes it’s true but that is not their real motive. Everywhere and always, the primary purpose of taxation is to bring money into the politicians’ hands. Have you ever heard a politician say we should cut some tax in order to incentivise some behaviour? No, weirdly enough, the only thing politicians do to change our behaviour is to impose taxes.

....

I didn’t realise that this year saw the introduction of a new car tax which is a perfect example of taxation disguised as virtue promotion.

Liveline today was swamped with callers complaining about the new NOX tax which ostensibly penalises pollution but, in the end, Joe agrees that it is just a scheme to clamp down on private car imports.

Its introduction was so sneaky that many people who had already imported the car still got stung for the new tax which is really unfair.

http://http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=9_21689112_53_13-01-2020

martyc5674 · 13-01-2020 9:28pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Wasn't thinking FG but other parties might. It would be a sure fire vote getter. All would get the removal of the car tax. The current system penalizes those who do less mileage or use more fuel efficient cars!

How does the current system penalize either of those 2 demographics?

Less mileage = less levy paid at the pumps.
Fuel effecient car = less annual motor tax.

If the levies were placed on just the fuel or just the annual motor tax then one would be penalized more than the other.

saabsaab · 13-01-2020 10:04pm

As I said in the original post up to 15c per litre extra.

Perhaps 1 cent extra per KWh on non renewable electricity if there were any short fall. As greater numbers of EVs come on stream the lost revenue will have to come from somewhere.

If there was an oil crisis tomorrow and fuel went up 20 30 or 50c we would all have to pay it, if we want to drive as we do.

_Kaiser_ · 13-01-2020 10:10pm

Caquas wrote: »

http://http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=9_21689112_53_13-01-2020

I didn’t realise that this year saw the introduction of a new car tax which is a perfect example of taxation disguised as virtue promotion.

Liveline today was swamped with callers complaining about the new NOX tax which ostensibly penalises pollution but, in the end, Joe agrees that it is just a scheme to clamp down on private car imports.

Its introduction was so sneaky that many people who had already imported the car still got stung for the new tax which is really unfair.

http://http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=9_21689112_53_13-01-2020

Joe is right. The 6.1 news had a segment on new car sales being down but imports/used being the highest yet last year and had some SIMI guy on practically gushing over the increased charges now in place

Idbatterim · 13-01-2020 10:13pm

Taxing those who have to commute long distances out of existence to satisfy those who use their car occasionally or owns a second car as a hobby solves nothing. It just drives a bigger wedge between those who cannot afford and those who can.

there are now cars that can do "long distance" for virtually no tax and fuel costs...

TheRiverman · 13-01-2020 10:26pm

kuro2k wrote: »

Government abolished the tax in the late 70's and added the cost to the price of fuel. Yay said everybody!!

The following year a nominal fee was introduced............ this nominal fee was increased in following budgets and later became motor tax

Do you really trust the government to not do the same thing again??

Tax was abolished on most cars by the newly formed Fianna Fail Government led by Jack Lynch in 1977.It was one of their manifesto policies and resulted in a landslide election victory.The cost was not added to the price of fuel.You are correct about the nominal fee.

runawaybishop · 13-01-2020 10:39pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

there are now cars that can do "long distance" for virtually no tax and fuel costs...

In five years time there may be used cars with a decent range, right now only new cars have anything reasonable. The infrastructure isn't in place yet either. We should be incentivising people, not punishing.

bazz26 · 13-01-2020 10:48pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

there are now cars that can do "long distance" for virtually no tax and fuel costs...

So why don't you drive one yourself?

Idbatterim · 14-01-2020 10:50am

bazz26 wrote: »

So why don't you drive one yourself?

I do miniscule mileage... Of course the issue with them, is price from new. Thats why I would totally support big increase in motor tax on petrol and diesel from next budget and use that to incentive electric. My primary point is, all of this "do big mileage" We live in ireland, you certainly dont do huge mileage unless your a a sales rep etc and even a 30kw hour leaf for 15k, would suit a lot of people. What will the excuse be now with 500km range cars? they cant do 510km without stopping?

Its like the argument with the "chape tax" who cant afford an 08 these days?! Thats what will happen with electric...

Idbatterim · 14-01-2020 11:03am

bazz26 wrote: »

So why don't you drive one yourself?

my point is, people complaining about long commutes and fuel prices, well there are alternatives now... and have been for years for many people.

Geuze · 14-01-2020 11:06am

Idbatterim wrote: »

electric. My primary point is, all of this "do big mileage" We live in ireland, you certainly dont do huge mileage unless your a a sales rep etc and .

AFAIK, the Irish drive the most in the EU?

There is a lot of long-distance commuting happening, due to the prevalence of one-off housing.

Geuze · 14-01-2020 11:07am

Adding the 1bn motor tax to excise would mean a large increase in excise rates.

I haven't the time to do the sums now, but it would be big.

Bigdig69 · 14-01-2020 11:09am

There are other reasons to tax cars like this one

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/motor-tax-revenue-to-be-paid-directly-to-central-government-1.3327927

Did you really think you were getting water for free!!

bazz26 · 14-01-2020 11:18am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I do miniscule mileage... Of course the issue with them, is price from new. Thats why I would totally support big increase in motor tax on petrol and diesel from next budget and use that to incentive electric. My primary point is, all of this "do big mileage" We live in ireland, you certainly dont do huge mileage unless your a a sales rep etc and even a 30kw hour leaf for 15k, would suit a lot of people. What will the excuse be now with 500km range cars? they cant do 510km without stopping?

Its like the argument with the "chape tax" who cant afford an 08 these days?! Thats what will happen with electric...

Then surely you would benefit greatly from practically free running costs would you not or is the case of you don't fancy giving up your S Class for a Leaf but expect other people to run out and buy a Leaf?

Remember, the government are not just going to sit by and watch everyone switch to cheaper running electric cars. As soon as revenue from ICE cars drops and there is a significant uptake in EVs they will start slapping higher taxes on them. As long as there are cars there will always be ways to tax them.

runawaybishop · 14-01-2020 11:29am

Idbatterim wrote: »

my point is, people complaining about long commutes and fuel prices, well there are alternatives now... and have been for years for many people.

There are no alternatives unless you spend 40k. Many people cannot afford that.

Idbatterim · 14-01-2020 12:43pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Then surely you would benefit greatly from practically free running costs would you not or is the case of you don't fancy giving up your S Class for a Leaf but expect other people to run out and buy a Leaf?

Remember, the government are not just going to sit by and watch everyone switch to cheaper running electric cars. As soon as revenue from ICE cars drops and there is a significant uptake in EVs they will start slapping higher taxes on them. As long as there are cars there will always be ways to tax them.

this is the issue, the car is worth so much more to me, than someone will give me for it. At least I highly assume that is the case, it has been my experience and everyone elses I know, when selling such cars... "oh, Ill "upgrade" to this car, will only cost X to change. While you get offered a bag of crisps and a tenner for your car on donedeal or adverts... usually after you have your new car sitting there, not going down that road again! holding onto what I have and going for the 4.8 twin turbo with only E1200 motor tax , as my next driver! near 450bhp for a mere E1200 is actually good value with our motor tax system, that must have been based purely on begrudgery, when it was conceived!

I agree with what you are saying about the decreasing revenue *per motorist. But there is no way, even increasing motor tax or electricity cost, that they will be able to claw anything like back, what they are going to lose...

Idbatterim · 14-01-2020 12:45pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

There are no alternatives unless you spend 40k. Many people cannot afford that.

no brand new alternatives you mean probably and that may be the case here, it is not the case in other countries...

Idbatterim · 14-01-2020 12:56pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

There are no alternatives unless you spend 40k. Many people cannot afford that.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mg-zs-ev-gets-extended-discount-offer-following-record-sales

E27,715 if you are in the uk...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mg-zs-ev-gets-extended-discount-offer-following-record-sales

https://www.albawaba.com/business/pr/impressive-all-new-mg-zs-ev-and-mg-hs-awarded-five-star-safety-ratings-euro-ncap

ednwireland · 14-01-2020 2:03pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

E27,715 if you are in the uk...

still about 27k more than i have in the bank or 20k more than the car i bought last april (which has now done 4 runs to yorkshire and back in the last 8 months)

runawaybishop · 14-01-2020 3:28pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mg-zs-ev-gets-extended-discount-offer-following-record-sales

E27,715 if you are in the uk...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mg-zs-ev-gets-extended-discount-offer-following-record-sales

https://www.albawaba.com/business/pr/impressive-all-new-mg-zs-ev-and-mg-hs-awarded-five-star-safety-ratings-euro-ncap

We aren't in the UK.

It has a range of about 200km in the winter when new, that's not enough to persuade rural commuters to change.

saabsaab · 14-01-2020 6:54pm

Poll closed. Two thirds in favour the basis of a clear mandate for change.

I think some against are a bit like the boy in School that wanted to get beaten up in the morning every day and was afraid that when it stopped he might be beaten up more at other times so wanted to stay with what he knew no matter what!

runawaybishop · 14-01-2020 9:10pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Poll closed. Two thirds in favour the basis of a clear mandate for change.

I think some against are a bit like the boy in School that wanted to get beaten up in the morning every day and was afraid that when it stopped he might be beaten up more at other times so wanted to stay with what he knew no matter what!

Because popularity is what we should base policy on.

Cheap fuel for me anyway, nipping over the border once a week to fill up. Pity the local businesses will all have to shut down.

Henry Ford III · 14-01-2020 9:13pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Poll closed. Two thirds in favour the basis of a clear mandate for change.

I think some against are a bit like the boy in School that wanted to get beaten up in the morning every day and was afraid that when it stopped he might be beaten up more at other times so wanted to stay with what he knew no matter what!

It's not a mandate for anything. Don't be silly.

It's merely a bunch of relatively high contributors to road tax expressing a desire to pay less.

ednwireland · 14-01-2020 9:47pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Poll closed. Two thirds in favour the basis of a clear mandate for change.

I think some against are a bit like the boy in School that wanted to get beaten up in the morning every day and was afraid that when it stopped he might be beaten up more at other times so wanted to stay with what he knew no matter what!

284 self selecting voters not exactly a statistically valid sample of anything

Abolish car tax

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