Landlord Entering Property Without Permission

DelBoy Trotter · 21-11-2019 1:18pm

Auguste Comte wrote: »

Would make you wonder would he have a camera or two discreetly installed around "his investment" to keep an eye on his tenants movements.?

I posted this very early on the thread. If he knows that nobody is home (including the dog), it would make me think about the possibility of hidden cameras

Cathmandooo · 21-11-2019 1:23pm

Bogwoppit wrote: »

Asking the LL to change the locks won’t make any difference, they’ll still hold keys to the new locks.

Of course they'll hold a set of keys, that's not the point. Asking for a change of locks is merely an excuse to let the landlord know that cameras are being installed. Do you think they'll let themselves in knowing cameras are set up?

Bogwoppit · 21-11-2019 1:27pm

Cathmandooo wrote: »

Of course they'll hold a set of keys, that's not the point. Asking for a change of locks is merely an excuse to let the landlord know that cameras are being installed. Do you think they'll let themselves in knowing cameras are set up?

What’s the advantage doing that? Just straight up call the LL out, I don’t understand why people are suggesting the passive aggressive approach, would be a complete waste of time.

DelBoy Trotter · 21-11-2019 1:29pm

Bogwoppit wrote: »

What’s the advantage doing that? Just straight up call the LL out, I don’t understand why people are suggesting the passive aggressive approach, would be a complete waste of time.

I couldn't agree more with this post. I don't get it at all.

sjb25 · 21-11-2019 1:47pm

Creepy AF id would be absolutely raging I’d be with your husband all guns blazing

what I’d probably do is ring him say listen we knew someone was in the house we set up cameras to bring footage to the gaurds when we realized it’s you we are giving you the chance to explain yourself with a VERY good reason as it is against the terms of the lease as there was no emergency and tell us it won’t happen again or you can explain it to the rtb

Once is bad enough but a few times is just bloody creepy

Cathmandooo · 21-11-2019 1:54pm

Bogwoppit wrote: »

What’s the advantage doing that? Just straight up call the LL out, I don’t understand why people are suggesting the passive aggressive approach, would be a complete waste of time.

To put it simply it avoids confrontation and added stress to the op, I'm sure in the situation they're in they already have enough stress.

Both confronting the LL or telling him you're installing cameras tonight is giving him a chance to not do it again. Neither stops him from doing it, both could be effective, he knows he'll be caught doing it again. You just have to pick which suits you best and makes life easier in the circumstances.

DelBoy Trotter · 21-11-2019 1:57pm

Cathmandooo wrote: »

To put it simply it avoids confrontation and added stress to the op, I'm sure in the situation they're in they already have enough stress.

The OP can try the passive aggressive approach which may or may not stop the LL entering the house again. Not knowing if it will happen again will add more stress to the OP.

The OP could confront the LL and state the facts that have been shared here and the chances of the LL entering the house again would be a lot smaller than the passive aggressive approach of option number 1

JustMe,K · 21-11-2019 2:00pm

Is it possible to lock the front door from the inside, or keep a key in it to stop it being opened from the outside while using a back entrance for a few days to see if the LL mentions anything and basically drops themselves in it?

21-11-2019 2:00pm

gibgodsman wrote: »

I don't know how the above poster can suggest such a calm approach to something so serious

Not only is he entering your home without your knowledge, he is quite clearly watching your movements in order to check when the best time to be creepy is.

Every serial killer does the same thing....

Go straight to the guards, the lease should be the least of your worries, the safety of your family should be your main worry.

Also, he would have absolutely no chance of kicking you out as you look for legal action as he has in sense defecated on his own lease and you have protection from being evicted due to his own actions

He's definitely a serial killer...

21-11-2019 3:08pm

While it's totally out of order I don't think it's creepy at all like some think.

He is most likely just worried about his property and is wrongly doing unauthorised inspections.

El Weirdo · 21-11-2019 3:15pm

Axel Damaged Rayon wrote: »

While it's totally out of order I don't think it's creepy at all like some think.

He is most likely just worried about his property and is wrongly doing unauthorised inspections.

Exactly.

Occam's razor applies here, I think.

GBX · 21-11-2019 3:17pm

Axel Damaged Rayon wrote: »

While it's totally out of order I don't think it's creepy at all like some think.

He is most likely just worried about his property and is wrongly doing unauthorised inspections.

He should be giving notice before entering. Whether he is worried or not.

21-11-2019 3:24pm

GBX wrote: »

He should be giving notice before entering. Whether he is worried or not.

Yes he should, I never said he shouldn't. I was simply saying its wrong but I don't see it as being in the slightest bit creepy.

irelandrover · 21-11-2019 3:32pm

Axel Damaged Rayon wrote: »

Yes he should, I never said he shouldn't. I was simply saying its wrong but I don't see it as being in the slightest bit creepy.

Once every few months could be explained as inspections.

Creeping around a families house while they aren't there 3 times since the start of October is creepy.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-11-2019 3:35pm

Doop wrote: »

I would suggest sending him a letter/email telling him you have observed him entering the property without permission (and have evidence of same) and that the guards have been notified and will be in contact should this occur again. Should he want to inspect the property it needs to be in accordance with the lease.

That's over the top. Call the LL (Not an email or Facebook message or solicitors letter)
say you know he's been entering the house without permission.
Say you know it's normal to have periodical inspections but you want to be there to let them in and you want to have agreed to the inspection and
Say you don't want Anyone entering the house when you're not there or without arranging it in advance (all perfectly normal, reasonable expectations)

Don't give them the chance to deny they've entered the house as that would only turn things sour of they do deny it. And lay out the conditions for future inspections.

Simple as the that. No need for an argument, just set them straight.

kennethsmyth · 21-11-2019 4:10pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's over the top. Call the LL (Not an email or Facebook message or solicitors letter)
say you know he's been entering the house without permission.
Say you know it's normal to have periodical inspections but you want to be there to let them in and you want to have agreed to the inspection and
Say you don't want Anyone entering the house when you're not there or without arranging it in advance (all perfectly normal, reasonable expectations)

Don't give them the chance to deny they've entered the house as that would only turn things sour of they do deny it. And lay out the conditions for future inspections.

Simple as the that. No need for an argument, just set them straight.

He needs to agree to a lock change and that the spare keys are held by your solicitor not him.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-11-2019 4:12pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

He needs to agree to a lock change and that the spare keys are held by your solicitor not him.

Of course he doesn't. The situation can be sorted out much more simply than that by normal people chatting it through.

No need for any of the legal routes. Just the normal routes of chatting and agreeing what to do in future. The OP has the cameras so they'll know if the LL breaks the agreement.

Browney7 · 21-11-2019 4:17pm

Axel Damaged Rayon wrote: »

While it's totally out of order I don't think it's creepy at all like some think.

He is most likely just worried about his property and is wrongly doing unauthorised inspections.

If he's that "worried about his property" he shouldn't be a landlord and should sell the place. Paying 3k for this "service" is just plain nuts.

As for not changing the locks, how would he know they are changed unless he drops himself in it? He issues notice for them to remedy situation (op has a one year lease so can't use the cessation of tenancy in first 6 months clause) and then OP politely drops video footage evidence of him perusing the house.

Then he goes to the RTB to vindicate his rights and OP counter files that they were in fear etc as he was repeatedly entering without cause and have evidence of same. Landlord would be nuts to do so so changing locks is not the one way ticket to the street that people are making it out to be here if that's what the OP does (although they have said they don't wish to do this which is fair enough).

OP, best of luck in remedying this situation but realistically your relationship with this LL is as good as dead for the remainder of your tenancy because of his actions.

kennethsmyth · 21-11-2019 4:27pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course he doesn't. The situation can be sorted out much more simply than that by normal people chatting it through.

No need for any of the legal routes. Just the normal routes of chatting and agreeing what to do in future. The OP has the cameras so they'll know if the LL breaks the agreement.

Hang on, he has been accessing the house while the family is out, he has trespassed. The family no longer feels like its their home/castle/ as safe as previously.

He agrees to the locks demand and all is settled or he doesn't and the family goes to RTB as they are entitled to. I'm all for better rights for landlords as I do believe they get a hard time however he hasnt a leg to stand on. While the family has him bang to rights he needs to offer up or agree to a solution that allows the issue to pass - if not he needs to learn a lesson that costs him money.

kennethsmyth · 21-11-2019 4:30pm

By the way, I havent said change the locks without his agreement.

Locks get changed with his agreement - just that the agreement is more pushed on him than he otherwise would of liked.

Get a side letter written by his solicitor to addendum the lease - that the spare keys will be kept not in direct control of landlord but if lease ends then they will.

21-11-2019 4:35pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Get a side letter written by his solicitor to addendum the lease - that the spare keys will be kept not in direct control of landlord but if lease ends then they will.

You wouldn't have a hope of getting such a clause, it would be laughed at. You can't prevent a property owner having keys to his property.

Look the LL is wrong and the op needs to address it but there is no point making suggestions that have zero chance of actually happening. Also any talk of Guards is a waste of breath, its nothing to do with the guards.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-11-2019 4:37pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Hang on, he has been accessing the house while the family is out, he has trespassed. The family no longer feels like its their home/castle/ as safe as previously.

He agrees to the locks demand and all is settled or he doesn't and the family goes to RTB as they are entitled to. I'm all for better rights for landlords as I do believe they get a hard time however he hasnt a leg to stand on. While the family has him bang to rights he needs to offer up or agree to a solution that allows the issue to pass - if not he needs to learn a lesson that costs him money.

Yeah but there's no need to change locks or involve a solicitor on any level. A chat with the LL should be the first step. If it can be sorted there, wouldn't that be preferable? Ie Ll agrees to arrange inspections and not enter the house without agreement. Simple, no?

jlm29 · 21-11-2019 4:39pm

I actually think that the OP had the right idea when she said she wanted to phone the landlord while he was on camera In the house. Probably the easiest way to mortify him into never coming back.

ted1 · 21-11-2019 4:41pm

Next time you get a alert from the camera that he is there. Call the Gardai and tell them that there is an intruder in your house.

kennethsmyth · 21-11-2019 4:41pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but there's no need to change locks or involve a solicitor on any level. A chat with the LL should be the first step. If it can be sorted there, wouldn't that be preferable? Ie Ll agrees to arrange inspections and not enter the house without agreement. Simple, no?

Landlord has already proven to be untrustworthy - so no.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-11-2019 4:45pm

jlm29 wrote: »

I actually think that the OP had the right idea when she said she wanted to phone the landlord while he was on camera In the house. Probably the easiest way to mortify him into never coming back.

Why mortify him? What advantage does that bring over just having a normal conversation with him. No need to even say you've got cameras on the house of you don't want to say HOW you know he's been in the house.

They can just get him agree not to enter worth out permission. That would be enough for most people to do what you want. Then continue with a normal LL-tenant relationship.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-11-2019 4:54pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

Landlord has already proven to be untrustworthy - so no.

Ah that’s an overreaction. If they chat about it and the landlord agrees, then breaks the agreement, then get serious. Most people will behave appropriately when confronted so I wouldn’t suggest overreacting.

riemann · 21-11-2019 4:57pm

You may have hit the jackpot.

I'd invite him over, sit down on the couch in front of the tv and play every clip one after the other, then give him a printed log of all the times he trespassed.

Then ask him how does a 50% reduction in rent sound going forward (i.e. towards infinity).

I'm half joking, you need to bring this situation to a financially beneficially resolution for yourselves.

Play your cards wrong and you'll be out on the street while the gardai are "preparing a file for the DPP" in which case he will only ever be fined.

kennethsmyth · 21-11-2019 4:58pm

Axel Damaged Rayon wrote: »

You wouldn't have a hope of getting such a clause, it would be laughed at. You can't prevent a property owner having keys to his property.

Look the LL is wrong and the op needs to address it but there is no point making suggestions that have zero chance of actually happening. Also any talk of Guards is a waste of breath, its nothing to do with the guards.

I've said that the landlords keys are just not in direct control by him, he can have it that during the lease they stay at his solicitors etc. But something has to change here.

If not screw him, go to RTB and have him fined.

riemann · 21-11-2019 4:59pm

ted1 wrote: »

Next time you get a alert from the camera that he is there. Call the Gardai and tell them that there is an intruder in your house.

Bonus points if you include he looks like he has a gun.

kennethsmyth · 21-11-2019 5:00pm

riemann wrote: »

You may have hit the jackpot.

I'd invite him over, sit down on the couch in front of the tv and play every clip one after the other, then give him a printed log of all the times he trespassed.

Then ask him how does a 50% reduction in rent sound going forward (i.e. towards infinity).

I'm half joking, you need to bring this situation to a financially beneficially resolution for yourselves.

Play your cards wrong and you'll be out on the street while the gardai are "preparing a file for the DPP" in which case he will only ever be fined.

I dont get how this "you'll be out on the street senario" will arise. If he tries to do anything you can call the gardai for interfering with your home and property. He cannot change the locks either.

Get an alarm or train the dog .

riemann · 21-11-2019 5:02pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I dont get how this "you'll be out on the street senario" will arise. If he tries to do anything you can call the gardai for interfering with your home and property. He cannot change the locks either.

Get an alarm or train the dog .

He decides to sell the house as an example off the top of my head.

Or his son is coming back to Dublin and moving in.

I'm sure there are several more.

Mickeroo · 21-11-2019 5:03pm

awec wrote: »

OP, I guess all you want to happen now is for these strange visits into your home to stop, right?

I would just start by just confronting him about it directly. Tell him you are very unhappy and somewhat creeped out that he has been entering the property and ask him why he has been doing so. I wouldn't even mention the cameras initially, to see if he tries to deny it.

If that doesn't work, then you can look at going further. There's no point in going nuclear straight off the bat, it's easier to escalate things later than de-escalate once people have their backs up.

This seems like the most rational suggestion to me.

El_Duderino 09 · 21-11-2019 5:03pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I dont get how this "you'll be out on the street senario" will arise. If he tries to do anything you can call the gardai for interfering with your home and property. He cannot change the locks either.

Get an alarm or train the dog .

Yeag, gardai, solicitors, dogs, out on the streets, change locks. Or just chat to him and tell him nit to enter without agreement. See if that's enough.

dancingqueen · 21-11-2019 5:30pm

kennethsmyth wrote: »

I dont get how this "you'll be out on the street senario" will arise. If he tries to do anything you can call the gardai for interfering with your home and property. He cannot change the locks either.

Get an alarm or train the dog .

The Gardai will not get involved. If that was the case they could call them now, for interfering with their home and property (it's his property though).

I like the sit him down and show him the clips idea - he can't deny it, you have the proof and see what he'll say. He sounds like an idiot, and he needs to know you know. I understand your worries about being put out of the house, but he can't do that. You have a fixed term lease, it's watertight. If he even tried to remove your belongings and change the locks he would be not only reprimanded by the RTB, but it would be all over the media - and if he threatens you with it you can tell him that. If he has multiple properties his name will be blackened forever. The odds are very much in your favour on this one.

dancingqueen · 21-11-2019 5:33pm

riemann wrote: »

He decides to sell the house as an example off the top of my head.

Or his son is coming back to Dublin and moving in.

I'm sure there are several more.

He needs a statutory declaration for this, and that means he needs a solicitor. It's unlikely that a solicitor will draw up a false legal document and if he manages to fraudulently get one done up, then when the house is suddenly back on draft he can be reported - very risky for a landlord with multiple lets

Sleepy · 21-11-2019 6:09pm

I'd be setting him up myself. Wait for the next alert and then call the guards about a burglary in progress at your address.

Not only should you frighten him into stopping, you'll also have a Garda witness to his trespass for when you take him to the PRTB.

con___manx1 · 21-11-2019 6:33pm

Change the locks.
If he says anything about the locks being changed ask him why he was trying to get in.

Get Real · 21-11-2019 6:33pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd be setting him up myself. Wait for the next alert and then call the guards about a burglary in progress at your address.

Not only should you frighten him into stopping, you'll also have a Garda witness to his trespass for when you take him to the PRTB.

Op has him on camera though to take him to the PRTB. The guy owns the property, so from a criminal law point of view, trespass doesn't apply. And a judge would laugh it out of court.

People seem to be blending criminal offences and a different form of trespass which is specifically provided for in the tenancy Act 2004.

Go with the law that backs you up. Use the footage and bring it to RTB. He can be prosecuted that way. Nowhere in the tenancies act does it mention a power of arrest, gardai, or anything.

Personally, I'd solve it internally with an email as other have suggested. If that doesn't work, then RTB. The end result is you want to stop him visiting unannounced right?

Why complicate the situation waiting on guards, "gathering evidence" when there's nothing in criminal law for someone trespassing on a property they own. Too much hassle for op for no gain. And jumping miles ahead.

893bet · 21-11-2019 6:46pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Once every few months could be explained as inspections.

Creeping around a families house while they aren't there 3 times since the start of October is creepy.

Extremely creepy.

Has be been in bedrooms?

Who knows what his intentions are but it’s not normal.

lunamoon · 22-11-2019 11:57am

I prefer the passive agressive approach but that's just me

I'd probably ring him and let him know that you're changing the locks because you suspect someone has been in the house when you weren't there and see if he confesses.

sodafountain · 22-11-2019 12:03pm

Thanks for all the replies everyone! I wasn't expecting to get so many!

Ok so just to answer/clarify a few things I've seen mentioned a couple of times:

* We won't be changing the locks - it's specifically prohibited in our lease and we don't want to do anything that might give him grounds to evict us.

* He has been going in to the bedrooms, but not for long enough to be doing anything creepy like sniffing my underwear or anything - we have a camera in the landing and we can see him walking into the bedrooms but from the looks of it he walks in and turns around and comes straight back out again.

* I completely understand that he wants to keep an eye on the property (particularly seeing as how we're first time renters and we also have 3 kids and a dog) I have no problem with him wanting to carry out inspections, however he needs to notify us first. Also, he seems to have been accessing the property roughly once a fortnight, which would be an excessive amount of inspections. I would even feel once a month would be too much; looking at the RTB website, they recommend once per quarter and I would be happy with that.

* I'm not sure how he knows my routine - I've 3 young kids, so I suppose it wouldn't take a genius to work out that I'd be out in the mornings and afternoons doing the school run. However, I've noticed that he only comes into the house when I'm out in the morning and have the dog with me. I leave the dog in the house when I'm going to collect the kids from school, so I'm assuming he doesn't go in then because the dog would go ballistic. She's crated, so she couldn't attack him or anything, but the barking would be enough that neighbours would notice.

As far as I know, his house/office is about a 15 minute drive from us, so I suppose he could be driving by regularly to check on the place. It's in a cul-de-sac so he wouldn't be going past on his way to/from anywhere; you'd have to specifically drive down our road to see the house. A couple of people on here have mentioned that he might have hidden cameras in the house, which is frankly a terrifying prospect. The only thing that makes me think he probably hasn't is surely if he had done, he would have noticed us putting up our own cameras?

So anyway, to give you a bit of an update, my husband mentioned it to the solicitor yesterday and the solicitor said that while we'd have him "bang to rights" if we wanted to take a case to the RTB, my proposed scenario of email/letter from ourselves first is probably the best way to go because we can escalate from there if things continue. He said if it was a case that we were happy to move out and go elsewhere straight away, we'd be entitled to break the lease because he is in violation of it, but seeing as we want to stay in the place til the lease ends in the summer, the aim is to resolve it firmly but without aggro. He also mentioned the same thing I'd said previously - that it would give us the upper hand if there was a dispute over getting the deposit back when we move out; basically "we behaved reasonably towards you and didn't go straight to the RTB when we found out you were accessing the house, now we'd appreciate the prompt return of our deposit".

I also called in to my local Garda station and got chatting to a very helpful Garda; he said that in terms of him going in and out, it was a civil matter (which I already knew) but regarding him seeming to know my routine, if I could prove that he was following me or watching the house then that would be something they could possibly pursue because it could be considered harassment. He also mentioned hidden cameras and said that he could be prosecuted for that, particularly if they captured images of the kids. His recommended that we put a camera in an upstairs window, facing out on the street, and that way we might be able to see if he's sitting nearby in his car, watching the house. He also suggested to me that I try and vary my routine a bit.

To be honest, I think reporting him to the Gardai would be an absolute last resort, but if he starts being awkward about things, it might be no harm to drop into conversation that I've spoken to them about it. Even if it's just to put the frighteners on him.

So I'm in the process of drafting up an email this morning, telling him that we've observed him entering the property, providing dates, times and screen shots, and stating that we did not and do not give him permission to enter without both of us present. I'm also going to ask him to reply and confirm that it will not happen again, and that if it continues we will have no choice but to lodge a complaint with the RTB. I also discovered last night that he never registered the tenancy, so hopefully the threat of the RTB will be enough, because he'll be fined for not registering it.

GBX · 22-11-2019 12:09pm

Hopefully he just backs off once he gets the letter and leaves you get on with things without the worry of him snooping.

Fol20 · 22-11-2019 12:11pm

Your post comes across has very diligent, calm, logical and not aggressive in the slightest - good job!

You did the smart thing and let it settle in first and weigh up all your options both current and future to come to your well rounded decision above

I personally wouldn’t be able to settle this so amicably as I always think of my home as “my castle” but fair Duce to you. You have approached this issue very well.

One other recommendation going forward is to be careful what you say on this thread. If this ever did go legal and if the ll found out, he may/may not use this against you. I hope it all works out for you and he stops this very weird behaviour. I still can’t believe he comes in every 2 weeks - does he have anything better to do with his time.

w/s/p/c/ · 22-11-2019 12:13pm

I have been looking at this thread since yesterday (while I should have been working!), I never responded as other posts covered what I was going to say. I am dying to find out the response from the Land Lord, best of luck sodafountain!

dartboardio · 22-11-2019 12:33pm

This is the way to do it OP, calm, and professional!

Hopefully now he realises his actions, and apologises, and that'll be the end of it.

Keep us updated if you see him hanging around the house nearby or anything.

Never go in all guns blazing, to anything. Always works in your favour if you are more calm. Fair play OP.

Thoie · 22-11-2019 12:41pm

sodafountain wrote: »

I also called in to my local Garda station and got chatting to a very helpful Garda;...

To be honest, I think reporting him to the Gardai would be an absolute last resort, but if he starts being awkward about things, it might be no harm to drop into conversation that I've spoken to them about it. Even if it's just to put the frighteners on him.

Hope he apologizes and arranges normal inspections in future if he needs them.

In relation to your informal chat with the guard, while it's fresh in your mind, make a note of the time, date and the guard's name now, and keep it with the log of times the landlord entered/exited, just in case you need it in future.

I seriously doubt there are hidden cameras around, but for your own peace of mind, you can be diligent and check the batteries of all the smoke alarms in the house (opening each one up to look at the battery), and with the lights out, play a torch around the rooms to see if there are any unexpected glints. He'd want to be a fierce eejit altogether to have left cameras in - that'd be a prison sentence.

John Hutton · 22-11-2019 12:48pm

Well done OP, please let us know how he responds.

AulWan · 22-11-2019 12:56pm

sodafountain wrote: »

So I'm in the process of drafting up an email this morning, telling him that we've observed him entering the property, providing dates, times and screen shots, and stating that we did not and do not give him permission to enter without both of us present. I'm also going to ask him to reply and confirm that it will not happen again, and that if it continues we will have no choice but to lodge a complaint with the RTB. I also discovered last night that he never registered the tenancy, so hopefully the threat of the RTB will be enough, because he'll be fined for not registering it.

My only suggestion would be to include your solicitor in the cc line of any email sent, so he knows they have been advised of the carry on.

James Bond Junior · 22-11-2019 12:58pm

As a landlord myself, I feel what he is doing is abhorrent. I would feel intrusive doing a drive by nevermind entering my property secretly.

Landlord Entering Property Without Permission

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