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Council tactics re_ leasing

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13

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    #62
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    The council need as many people off the housing list as possible, if they bail on the lease, the folk living in my house will remain, effectively no change for the waiting list.

    They will return to the list. They won’t remain in your dwelling.


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    #63
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    kceire wrote: »
    They will return to the list. They won’t remain in your dwelling.

    Actually if you are evicted, you don't rejoin the list, I imagine it's politically difficult for the council to evict anyone?


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    #64
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,513 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Actually if you are evicted, you don't rejoin the list, I imagine it's politically difficult for the council to evict anyone?

    Yeah sorry. Especially if on anti social grounds.
    I don’t think they can be removed from the list. I think they they have to get housed as I’ve heard many stories from a project estate officer within Dublin city.


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    #65
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    kceire wrote: »
    Yeah sorry. Especially if on anti social grounds.
    I don’t think they can be removed from the list. I think they they have to get housed as I’ve heard many stories from a project estate officer within Dublin city.

    In practice that may be the reality, thus meaning that the council has nothing to gain from evicting, messed up system


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    #66
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    kceire wrote: »
    They will return to the list. They won’t remain in your dwelling.

    If the council did bail, it's likely that the tenants would be effectively squatting as I never registered a tenancy with the RTB, I have no deal with those living there, might leave room for quicker resolution, no exhaustive process involving the RTB


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    #67
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,774 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    If the council did bail, it's likely that the tenants would be effectively squatting as I never registered a tenancy with the RTB, I have no deal with those living there, might leave room for quicker resolution, no exhaustive process involving the RTB

    On what basis did you not register the tenancy?


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    #68
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    RTB not involved here and aren't under long term lease as tenant is a public body

    This does not preclude the neighbours from lodging a 3rd party complaint with the RTB- and the RTB have accepted a number of such cases even in the last few weeks (from personal knowledge I know of a few in Galway and at least one a piece in DCC, and Fingal in Dublin- since the end of February).

    The fact that the property is under long term lease to the local authority- is not an exclusionary factor for the neighbours lodging a 3rd party complaint with the RTB.


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    #69
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    On what basis did you not register the tenancy?

    The terms of the long term lease include an exemption from the owner lodging a tenancy with the RTB.

    Its a messy situation- but the neighbours *do* have options- whether they realise it or not...........


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    #70
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    On what basis did you not register the tenancy?

    The RTB are not involved in long term lease arrangements with the council, check it out


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    #71
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    This does not preclude the neighbours from lodging a 3rd party complaint with the RTB- and the RTB have accepted a number of such cases even in the last few weeks (from personal knowledge I know of a few in Galway and at least one a piece in DCC, and Fingal in Dublin- since the end of February).

    The fact that the property is under long term lease to the local authority- is not an exclusionary factor for the neighbours lodging a 3rd party complaint with the RTB.

    Thank you for bringing that to my attention, do you know if the RTB would then correspond with me or the council?

    Who does the buck stop with in the eyes of the RTB?


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    #72
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Just been reading the " third party dispute resolution service" on the RTB site, refers to the landlord enforcing good behaviour standards, in my case the council are the landlord, I might forward this information to my neighbour provided I'm not volunteering to be viewed as the " landlord" by the RTB

    One wonders if the RTB are hand in glove with the local authorities and thus would be reluctant to make demands?

    Site article also refers to the tenancy, wonder if the RTB has any power where no tenancy exists?


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    #73
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Just been reading the " third party dispute resolution service" on the RTB site, refers to the landlord enforcing good behaviour standards, in my case the council are the landlord, I might forward this information to my neighbour provided I'm not volunteering to be viewed as the " landlord" by the RTB

    One wonders if the RTB are hand in glove with the local authorities and thus would be reluctant to make demands?

    Site article also refers to the tenancy, wonder if the RTB has any power where no tenancy exists?

    I will ask again, did you get legal advice before signing with the council?

    If not then why are you not getting legal advice now?

    Also why are you contacting the neighbour? I don’t understand you motive of getting a neighbour involved when you have no information if the neighbour is credible or not


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    #74
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I will ask again, did you get legal advice before signing with the council?

    If not then why are you not getting legal advice now?

    Also why are you contacting the neighbour? I don’t understand you motive of getting a neighbour involved when you have no information if the neighbour is credible or not

    Why would I need legal advice?

    As another poster pointed out, a neighbour can take a third party case to the RTB against the landlord so as to enforce conditions of the tenancy, I have not contacted the neighbour, I merely replied to a few texts, one last August, the other in the past week , did not promise anything but if I can direct them towards a solution to their problem, I will oblige, the neighbour cannot compell me to do anything but I see no downside to doing what I can, in this instance directing her towards the RTB with a view to putting pressure on the council to enforce standards, was worth starting this thread alone to discover such a facility is available, perhaps I might need it myself if I have a bad neighbour in the future

    Let's if possible get away from the idea that the neighbours are lacking credibility, the council are likely to be less reliable here were one to look for a view as to what the people living in my house are like, it's not in the interests of the council to admit that they chose delinquent tenants so were I to ask them, the likely answer is " fine and dandy"


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    #75
    nothing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭nothing


    I've not read everything, but aren't you still the landlord OP?

    I ask because I'm a tenant in a long term leasing scheme and with the exception of the rent payment being made by me to the council, then the council to the landlord, all other aspects of my tenancy are between me and the landlord. The council don't do repairs or inspections, and can only take action to remove me if I stop paying rent to them (in theory, I've plenty pf neighbours in arrears with no eviction in sight). If I was to be evicted, on grounds of anything other than rent, then the landlord would have to evict me. Though it is up to the council who goes into the property, I think you retain the right to evict.

    https://forumofgames.com/



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    #76
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    I will ask again, did you get legal advice before signing with the council?

    If not then why are you not getting legal advice now? ...


    It seems that the OP was trying to discuss the pros and cons of a long term lease with a council. It sounds like a good idea for a 'LL but what happens if problems arise?

    For example, if neighbours report anti social behaviour of a council tenant to rtb, is the 'LL (local council) or the property owner responsible? What does the council contract say about the condition of the property at the end of the 10 year lease?

    good questions for others who may be thinking of letting to the council. Maybe helpful to have as much information as possible as the OP said the contract is not negotiable anyway.


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    #77
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    nothing wrote: »
    I've not read everything, but aren't you still the landlord OP?

    I ask because I'm a tenant in a long term leasing scheme and with the exception of the rent payment being made by me to the council, then the council to the landlord, all other aspects of my tenancy are between me and the landlord. The council don't do repairs or inspections, and can only take action to remove me if I stop paying rent to them (in theory, I've plenty pf neighbours in arrears with no eviction in sight). If I was to be evicted, on grounds of anything other than rent, then the landlord would have to evict me. Though it is up to the council who goes into the property, I think you retain the right to evict.

    There are different rental schemes- such as RAS and the Long Term Rental Scheme- which are two entirely different schemes. With RAS- both the tenant and the landlord have a separate contract with the local authority (which sounds like what you're on)- however, the long term rental scheme is different- in that the owner has no dealing or contract with the person living in the property- only with the local authority (who in turn accept landlord responsibilities for the tenants they place in the properties).

    There are different schemes out there- and they work in very different ways.


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    #78
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    I thought boards was a forum where people can raise issues, ask questions and start a discussion.

    It seems that the OP was trying to discuss the pros and cons of a long term lease with a council. It sounds like a good idea for a 'LL but what happens if problems arise?

    For example, if neighbours report anti social behaviour of a council tenant to rtb, is the 'LL (local council) or the property owner responsible? What does the council contract say about to condition of the property at the end of the 10 year lease?

    good questions for others who may be thinking of letting to the council. Maybe have as much information as possible as the OP said the contract is not negotiable anyway.

    While not certain as I only became aware today that third parties can take cases to the RTB, I do think in this situation, the council are the " landlord", if this is the case, I would be happy to see the neighbour pursuing the council as its just wrong that her and her family suffer

    As for the lease I signed, there is a clause relating to anti social behaviour and the impact on surrounding residents, there are also several references to the leasee keeping the property in the order it was in upon being given possession, as standard, a month's rent is guaranteed to cover wear and tear at the end of the contract

    None of this is particularly relevant to the tenet of my original post, having a water tight lease does not shield you from poor decisions by other parties so nothing I could have demanded be amended or added re_ the lease ( if you can even make your own conditions?) would fundamentally change what appears to have arisen


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    #79
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    There are different rental schemes- such as RAS and the Long Term Rental Scheme- which are two entirely different schemes. With RAS- both the tenant and the landlord have a separate contract with the local authority (which sounds like what you're on)- however, the long term rental scheme is different- in that the owner has no dealing or contract with the person living in the property- only with the local authority (who in turn accept landlord responsibilities for the tenants they place in the properties).

    There are different schemes out there- and they work in very different ways.

    Relatively few property owners chose the long term leasing arrangements, I signed up for ten years which is the minimum length, I don't care if I have 10 k to spend on fixing the place up in nine years time but if the tenants are so destructive as to be having parties every night, I could be facing hefty repair bills in no time as no-one can destroy a place and yet stick around for the remainder of the lease, if they up and leave having made it uninhabitable, the council are hardly going to fork out thousands, it's back to my original point about the councils seeing the long term lease arrangements as an opportunity to put troublemakers away for the long term

    I don't have confirmation as yet having not inspected but I really hope that the council are not this horribly cynical


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    #80
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    OP, are the council not responsible for maintenance & repairs during the 10 year lease? Why would you be getting involved? And how can you do inspections anyway - is that not the LL's job?


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    #81
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    nothing wrote: »
    I've not read everything, but aren't you still the landlord OP?

    I ask because I'm a tenant in a long term leasing scheme and with the exception of the rent payment being made by me to the council, then the council to the landlord, all other aspects of my tenancy are between me and the landlord. The council don't do repairs or inspections, and can only take action to remove me if I stop paying rent to them (in theory, I've plenty pf neighbours in arrears with no eviction in sight). If I was to be evicted, on grounds of anything other than rent, then the landlord would have to evict me. Though it is up to the council who goes into the property, I think you retain the right to evict.

    Five years is also considered long term but (if I'm not mistaken) what you are referring to is either RAS or a variation of HAP


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    #82
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    OP, are the council not responsible for maintenance & repairs during the 10 year lease? Why would you be getting involved? And how can you do inspections anyway - is that not the LL's job?

    On paper yes but is it realistic to expect the council to restore the property to its original condition if a particularly vile tenant destroys it, I'm asking if the council fear being followed for renaging on contract clauses, I mean they clearly don't take seriously the concerns of the neighbours.

    Do council have greater powers to evict than private landlords?

    As for inspections, clause in contract refers to my being allowed inspect property, no reference to how often but once per year would satisfy my curiosity, obviously I'm keen to get inside having heard my neighbours story, if the place is like a pig sty, il know my suspicions about local authorities using this scheme for toxic tenants was well founded


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    #83
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,774 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    On paper yes but is it realistic to expect the council to restore the property to its original condition if a particularly vile tenant destroys it, I'm asking if the council fear being followed for renaging on contract clauses, I mean they clearly don't take seriously the concerns of the neighbours.

    Is this what the lease specified? If it is what the lease says, then why would you not expect them to do it?


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    #84
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    On paper yes but is it realistic to expect the council to restore the property to its original condition if a particularly vile tenant destroys it, I'm asking if the council fear being followed for renaging on contract clauses, I mean they clearly don't take seriously the concerns of the neighbours.

    So now the lease says the house will be restored to the original condition? A few posts back they could just walk out and leave it


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    #85
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,782 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    I can't see why the council would not honour their end of the contract. It's really up to them to deal with the tenant issues, afaik from other threads they pay 85% of market rent to cover all those costs.
    If the RTB have no registrations from public bodies how can they get involved with issues about council tenants? :confused:

    According to this the RTB does not cover public authority housing.

    https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/private-rented-housing/other/residential-tenancies-act-what-are-my-rights-and-obligations


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    #86
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    So now the lease says the house will be restored to the original condition? A few posts back they could just walk out and leave it

    Your confused, I was referring ( within a context) to the tenant walking out


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    #87
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    mrslancaster wrote: »
    I can't see why the council would not honour their end of the contract. It's really up to them to deal with the tenant issues, afaik from other threads they pay 85% of market rent to cover all those costs.
    If the RTB have no registrations from public bodies how can they get involved with issues about council tenants? :confused:

    I wasn't aware that they could but it was claimed that a third party can indeed take a case through the RTB, I've looked at the RTB site and third parties can indeed take a case but it makes no reference to situations where the landlord is a public body?

    I best ring the RTB


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    #88
    nothing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭nothing


    The_Conductor wrote: »

    There are different schemes out there- and they work in very different ways.

    Thanks for that clarification :)

    https://forumofgames.com/



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    #89
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Managed to get into the house today, in less than nine months

    The carpert is gone off the stairs
    The oven is disgustingly filthy
    Backyard has rubbish strewn all over it
    Carpets in bedrooms never felt a hoover run across them
    Couch in living room completely gone and replaced with what looks like something lifted out of a skip

    Now the real sweet stuff, the tenant has put the most garish looking wallpaper up in the hall, the dining room and also repainted the kitchen

    The council did not even meet me at the property despite putting it in writing that a member of the council would let me in, the person who met me was a quasi social worker who was delighted to tell me that most of their service users redecorate their new "homes", as I have no contract with this apparent outfit which the council have farmed out all dealings with the tenant and property, I saw no point in arguing with this person

    I have not decided whether or not to terminate my contract with the council but its now clear to me that they are utterly unreliable to enter into a long term lease with, when I phoned them today, the person I spoke to told me to email them my concerns

    And to think some people think large scale building and subsequent management by local authorities is the way to go.

    PS, the tenant themselves were not there which is what I expected


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    #90
    tm2408
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭tm2408


    Mad_maxx: I have a long term contract with the council and The bits you are saying in a few posts implies that we have similar arrangements.

    1). My client is the local authority who pay me each month for 10 years for in essence the use of my house
    2). I have no engagement with the tenants and im not their their landlord. That’s the council full remit
    3). At the end of the 10 years the council must return the house in a similar state that I handed it over to them in.

    In essence I have basically given the keys to the council for 10 years and walked away. I had to think long and hard about this as I was an accidental landlord but from speaking to mates who worked in the council and landlords who have come out the other end of these the council have always lived up to point 3 above.

    My advice is don’t get involved and let the neighbour deal with the council or RTB themselves.


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    #91
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users Posts: 13,505 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    tm2408 wrote: »
    Mad_maxx: I have a long term contract with the council and The bits you are saying in a few posts implies that we have similar arrangements.

    1). My client is the local authority who pay me each month for 10 years for in essence the use of my house
    2). I have no engagement with the tenants and im not their their landlord. That’s the council full remit
    3). At the end of the 10 years the council must return the house in a similar state that I handed it over to them in.

    In essence I have basically given the keys to the council for 10 years and walked away. I had to think long and hard about this as I was an accidental landlord but from speaking to mates who worked in the council and landlords who have come out the other end of these the council have always lived up to point 3 above.

    My advice is don’t get involved and let the neighbour deal with the council or RTB themselves.

    Which brings me back to my original post, I spoke by phone to the neighbour last week, the parties are once per month which on the face of it is not terribly shocking, I told my neighbour to pursue the council through the RTB and to encourage others on the same street to do the same

    The big issue is the complete lack of oversight by the council in terms of what is happening in the house, numerous things have changed since they took possession and they were none the wiser as they have outsourced dealings to this caseworker lady


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