3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

sparky42 · 06-01-2020 5:23pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not by much id say.

The first 23 was commissioned in '89, so 6 years, but like I said they've been used far longer than planned.

Leonidas BL · 06-01-2020 5:28pm

sparky42 wrote: »

The first 23 was commissioned in '89, so 6 years, but like I said they've been used far longer than planned.

But its not the kinda thing we are looking for anyway is it?

sparky42 · 06-01-2020 5:42pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

But its not the kinda thing we are looking for anyway is it?

A last generation ASW Frigate... Nope.

jonnybigwallet · 06-01-2020 6:33pm

Sparky. Take a look at the wikipedia entry for the type 23. It's been substantially upgraded now with anti ship and anti aircraft and hefty CIWS ( happens to be the same gun as used on the DF Mowags). Its practically a poor man's destroyer following all the upgrades, which also include all the radar and other electronic paraphernalia. Would be a bloody useful bit of kit with helicopter and a hanger. The NS need at least one ship with a credible war fighting capability and this one wouldn't cost too much as they were procured a wee while ago now before stuff got really pricey. So probably could get one fairly cheaply. And servicing / training etc would be a doddle with the UK right next door. It's got to be a credible contender IMO, and I'm trying to suggest things which won't break the bank, knowing how stingy the government is and the apathy of the public.

sparky42 · 06-01-2020 6:41pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Sparky. Take a look at the wikipedia entry for the type 23. It's been substantially upgraded now with anti ship and anti aircraft and hefty CIWS ( happens to be the same gun as used on the DF Mowags). Its practically a poor man's destroyer following all the upgrades, which also include all the radar and other electronic paraphernalia. Would be a bloody useful bit of kit with helicopter and a hanger. The NS need at least one ship with a credible war fighting capability and this one wouldn't cost too much as they were procured a wee while ago now before stuff got really pricey. So probably could get one fairly cheaply. And servicing / training etc would be a doddle with the UK right next door. It's got to be a credible contender IMO, and I'm trying to suggest things which won't break the bank, knowing how stingy the government is and the apathy of the public.

I know what the 23's have, the point stands however. They are a decade old design and even with the midlife refit that they are in the process of having (which is a major one since they were never intended to have one). The 4.5" is a niche gun for the RN which may be ending (depending on whether the 45 upgrade goes to a 5"), the Harpoons are end of lifeing and will be out of service soon enough, the hulls are worn.

More to the point you seem to be forgetting that the UK is trying to fudge the cost of the new Frigates by sinking the costs into the 23. So when they do decommission, their radars, their Sea Ceptors, their ECM system, their Sonar all of that is being pulled and passed on to the new frigates as they go.

So basically what they end up is a 30+ year old hull with it's systems pulled out. I don't see any benefit to us.

jonnybigwallet · 06-01-2020 8:00pm

Ah well. Suppose it's an idea to consider and fit out could be subject to negotiation. Gonna wrap it for tonight and see if anybody can come up with a better and cost effective solution. Would be nice to see a worthy replacement for the Eithne and the more gutsy the better IMO. Night All!

sparky42 · 06-01-2020 9:22pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Ah well. Suppose it's an idea to consider and fit out could be subject to negotiation. Gonna wrap it for tonight and see if anybody can come up with a better and cost effective solution. Would be nice to see a worthy replacement for the Eithne and the more gutsy the better IMO. Night All!

The planned baseline for the Eithne replacement is already well known, and we've already seen a "interesting" suggestion from Vard that just "happens" to be using Irish equipment images in their PR material.

Leonidas BL · 06-01-2020 11:36pm

https://vardmarine.com/gallery/vard-7-313/

sparky42 · 07-01-2020 12:09am

Yep, with helo images that just happen to be close to the 139's down to the roundels, and the design had the 76mm added on...

jonnybigwallet · 07-01-2020 1:15am

Extremely cool piece of kit that. Just bang on some missiles as well and that would "float my boat" (excuse the corny pun)

Leonidas BL · 07-01-2020 12:20pm

Something like this would seem good enough, and a step up from current capabilities.
https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/simbad-rc/

ohnonotgmail · 07-01-2020 12:28pm

who, exactly, would we be firing these missiles at?

Markcheese · 07-01-2020 12:30pm

I'll bite ... How much does 1 of those cost , ? Would a large ship need more than 1 launcher ...? And what sort of air radar does the ship need for it to plug into ..

sparky42 · 07-01-2020 12:49pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

who, exactly, would we be firing these missiles at?

Those are self defence systems, and given recent examples in the Med and off Africa not the worst idea for a ship that might have a couple of hundred troops on top of it's crew on board.

Leonidas BL · 07-01-2020 12:52pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I'll bite ... How much does 1 of those cost , ? Would a large ship need more than 1 launcher ...? And what sort of air radar does the ship need for it to plug into ..

If you click the link you can read all about it.

Leonidas BL · 07-01-2020 1:01pm

I think the RBS 70 can be mounted on a ship too.

jonnybigwallet · 07-01-2020 7:43pm

Fully endorse that idea. Fit for purpose for the type of ship it is. I suppose 2 might be enough? Maybe 4 is better? Hell of a solid looking ship if affordable... wonder how long from order to delivery? I love the massive helideck. You could even have four Harriers on board which would give Jonny Russian a hell of a nasty surprise. Keep up the research lads!

Markcheese · 07-01-2020 9:34pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

If you click the link you can read all about it.

I did ,didn't see the price though ,and didn't cop wether it needed a specialised marine air radar ..
Tie the back of a bv 70 on the deck ,lash the giraffe radar mast onto the ships mast ,and a few bv 70s ,be grand ... ( That'd make me the opposite of johhny above , )

Leonidas BL · 07-01-2020 9:59pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I did ,didn't see the price though ,and didn't cop wether it needed a specialised marine air radar ..
Tie the back of a bv 70 on the deck ,lash the giraffe radar mast onto the ships mast ,and a few bv 70s ,be grand ... ( That'd make me the opposite of johhny above , )

Dunno about price, but they seem top be a similar type missile to the RBS 70 so they are basically a shoulder mounted missile mounted in a special naval launcher.

Leonidas BL · 07-01-2020 10:06pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6EO9D51UIc

There's a video explaining it. All I know is I want one mounted on the top of my van.

sparky42 · 07-01-2020 10:33pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I did ,didn't see the price though ,and didn't cop wether it needed a specialised marine air radar ..
Tie the back of a bv 70 on the deck ,lash the giraffe radar mast onto the ships mast ,and a few bv 70s ,be grand ... ( That'd make me the opposite of johhny above , )

The Mistral is Infrared Homing, so I'd guess that the Ship's air search radar could que it to the target area, and the design would have to have an Air Search system for her helicopters, as Eithne once had when she had a helicopter.

Leonidas BL · 07-01-2020 10:40pm

sparky42 wrote: »

The Mistral is Infrared Homing, so I'd guess that the Ship's air search radar could que it to the target area, and the design would have to have an Air Search system for her helicopters, as Eithne once had when she had a helicopter.

It seems to have its own infrared search on top of the unit. There is an older version thats just fired by hand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmo_rKuZKQc

Heres an RBS 70 mounted on a ship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHIheBUg_tE

cameramonkey · 07-01-2020 11:25pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjR1Pzldc8E

This is what they need.

sparky42 · 07-01-2020 11:46pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjR1Pzldc8E

This is what they need.

It's not an either or, it's more both, but unlikely.

jonnybigwallet · 08-01-2020 10:13am

Exactly. Oto melara forward facing and 2 or 4 of the missile units on the sides. Cracking video of the Mistral rocket firing by the French navy! Seems pretty accurate.

jonnybigwallet · 09-01-2020 11:45am

Interesting item in yesterday's Examiner about the NS. Apparently the Maritime Forum is urging the government to replace the 2 inshore vessels with replacements which have a mine sweeping capability.

Yawlboy · 09-01-2020 11:58am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting item in yesterday's Examiner about the NS. Apparently the Maritime Forum is urging the government to replace the 2 inshore vessels with replacements which have a mine sweeping capability.

That would be sensible, we used to have that capability but its been a long time. I think for UN/EU work it would be useful for peace keeping operations.

sparky42 · 09-01-2020 1:47pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Interesting item in yesterday's Examiner about the NS. Apparently the Maritime Forum is urging the government to replace the 2 inshore vessels with replacements which have a mine sweeping capability.

Yawlboy wrote: »

That would be sensible, we used to have that capability but its been a long time. I think for UN/EU work it would be useful for peace keeping operations.

Ah no, I'm guessing said Forum looked at the WP and just repeated what the Government put in it back to everyone to make a headline. The WP suggested that years ago but the Peacock replacement is "paused".

Frankly unless we change our stance on NATO I don't see the point as to be effective we'd need to do massive training to get up to spec, attaching to the NATO standing groups would really be the only practical way to build up that experience quickly enough.

That being said the roles also don't fit, the WP called for replacing the Peacocks with something of similar tonnage/spec, but if you look at the new build European Sweepers they are about the 3K tons, you aren't going to fit a modern anti mine capability onto a hull the size of the Peacock.

jonnybigwallet · 09-01-2020 3:07pm

Some of the RN minesweepers are quite a bit smaller than 3K tonnes. And of timber construction if I remember correctly (the hulls).

sparky42 · 09-01-2020 3:29pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Some of the RN minesweepers are quite a bit smaller than 3K tonnes. And of timber construction if I remember correctly (the hulls).

And they are also decades old, I'm talking about the current build hulls for example which are much larger due to the changes in doctrine. The new Belgian/Dutch class that are being designed shows the changes in design. Even for the RN the floated replacements (whenever they happen) are to be much larger designs.

Yawlboy · 09-01-2020 11:22pm

The Swedish have a small, 400t, 48M, MCM vessel https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-surface-ships/surface-ships/mine-counter-measure-vessels/
Maybe too small for Irish Waters

This Belgian/Dutch model looks more appropriate but its 2800t and nearly €170m per vessel https://navaltoday.com/2019/05/22/belgian-dutch-minehunter-contract-officially-awarded/

Either way I'm sure we wouldn't spend the money on the sophisticated electronics and other equipment needed for modern mine counter measures.

sparky42 · 09-01-2020 11:54pm

Yawlboy wrote: »

The Swedish have a small, 400t, 48M, MCM vessel https://saab.com/naval/submarines-and-surface-ships/surface-ships/mine-counter-measure-vessels/
Maybe too small for Irish Waters

This Belgian/Dutch model looks more appropriate but its 2800t and nearly €170m per vessel https://navaltoday.com/2019/05/22/belgian-dutch-minehunter-contract-officially-awarded/

Either way I'm sure we wouldn't spend the money on the sophisticated electronics and other equipment needed for modern mine counter measures.

I really wouldn't like to think about how they might handle West Coast weather tbh, also fails on the replacing the current capabilities of the Peacocks.

As I said even leaving aside the costs of modern MCM capabilities, we'd almost have to attach them to someone else to build up the operational knowledge base and that brings it's own headaches.

jonnybigwallet · 23-01-2020 2:20pm

Just spotted an interesting snippet of info. (At least I thought it was interesting)...The Royal Navy is replacing the 2 smallest ships in the fleet (inshore patrol vessels based in Gibraltar) with 2 modern ships. It is expected that the contract is going to Safemarine for their Barracuda vessel. The one I'm always recommending for the NS.

sparky42 · 23-01-2020 5:09pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Just spotted an interesting snippet of info. (At least I thought it was interesting)...The Royal Navy is replacing the 2 smallest ships in the fleet (inshore patrol vessels based in Gibraltar) with 2 modern ships. It is expected that the contract is going to Safemarine for their Barracuda vessel. The one I'm always recommending for the NS.

And there's still zero use case for them for the NS.

jonnybigwallet · 23-01-2020 8:14pm

I don't agree. I think they could come in pretty handy. Tis a pretty lethal piece of kit for pursuing drug dealers and any dodgy shipping in Irish or Mediterranean waters.

sparky42 · 23-01-2020 10:16pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I don't agree. I think they could come in pretty handy. Tis a pretty lethal piece of kit for pursuing drug dealers and any dodgy shipping in Irish or Mediterranean waters.

Our deployment to the Med is over and I can almost bet money that between the DOD and DOF they will move heaven and earth to make sure it never happens again (remember the DOD basically had to be overruled by Kenny). Nor is Drug Dealers an issue there, it's dealing with unsafe boats full over people that vastly outnumber what the Barracuda could deal with.

Nor can I see why it would be the case for Irish waters, there's nothing like the "Go Fast" that the US Coastguard deal with crossing the Atlantic.

They make sense for the RN if they are buying them for base protection missions at Gib and Cyprus but we don't have any such commitments.

jonnybigwallet · 21-02-2020 10:42pm

I like the look of that Almirante Juan de Bourbon. One of them would come in well handy, albeit a bit pricey !

Leonidas BL · 21-02-2020 10:55pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I like the look of that Almirante Juan de Bourbon. One of them would come in well handy, albeit a bit pricey !

Handy for what?? Using up our entire defence budget? I like the look of a Lamborghini Huracan but I cant afford it, and it wouldn't even come in handy.

Larbre34 · 22-02-2020 5:50am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I like the look of that Almirante Juan de Bourbon. One of them would come in well handy, albeit a bit pricey !

A bit. 600 million.

Why not ring up the USN and make an offer for the Kitty Hawk, its currently inactive in the reserve fleet, I'm sure an Aircraft Carrier would be pretty handy too.....

jonnybigwallet · 22-02-2020 4:01pm

Was thinkin that meself...only problem is that I don't think that the Air Corps Gripens, which hopefully will be arrivin in a bit, will be compatible. Not keen on them F35's at all...Too pricey for me! Someting less grandiose such as the Mistrale class would be perfect if establishing an air arm. With a dozen second hand Harriers.

salmocab · 22-02-2020 4:06pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Was thinkin that meself...only problem is that I don't think that the Air Corps Gripens, which hopefully will be arrivin in a bit, will be compatible. Not keen on them F35's at all...Too pricey for me! Someting less grandiose such as the Mistrale class would be perfect if establishing an air arm. With a dozen second hand Harriers.

As a lurker here I’m absolutely shocked that you’ve found something that you consider too pricey.

Markcheese · 23-02-2020 12:40am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Was thinkin that meself...only problem is that I don't think that the Air Corps Gripens, which hopefully will be arrivin in a bit, will be compatible. Not keen on them F35's at all...Too pricey for me! Someting less grandiose such as the Mistrale class would be perfect if establishing an air arm. With a dozen second hand Harriers.

Harriers ? Those really difficult to fly things , that are pretty much at the end of their life , and a mistrale ?
It's, ah ,umh , an interesting proposal...
Just the 1 mistrale ? Or should there be 2 ? And while the mistrale(s) is protecting Ireland or invading Finland or chile or whatever ,who or what is protecting the mistrale...?

sparky42 · 23-02-2020 2:34am

Markcheese wrote: »

Harriers ? Those really difficult to fly things , that are pretty much at the end of their life , and a mistrale ?
It's, ah ,umh , an interesting proposal...
Just the 1 mistrale ? Or should there be 2 ? And while the mistrale(s) is protecting Ireland or invading Finland or chile or whatever ,who or what is protecting the mistrale...?

Why a half dozen Flight 3 Burkes of course, I mean why not?

Heraldoffreeent · 23-02-2020 2:47am

Markcheese wrote: »

Harriers ? Those really difficult to fly things , that are pretty much at the end of their life , and a mistrale ?
It's, ah ,umh , an interesting proposal...
Just the 1 mistrale ? Or should there be 2 ? And while the mistrale(s) is protecting Ireland or invading Finland or chile or whatever ,who or what is protecting the mistrale...?

A few P60's up armed with 25 or 30 20mm Rhinemetalls, nipping in and out of Killybegs, Kilrush, Kilkee, Belmullet etc to refuel from a couple of old Topaz tankers parked on the jetties.

Couple of FCA lads with recoilless rifles and Brens up front in the stern and down back in the starboard, Cushty!

jonnybigwallet · 23-02-2020 8:41am

Good to see all the regulars have bucked up their ideas and are looking at more ambitious plans going forward. By the way....slightly off topic , but read that the Spanish are flogging off some block 1 Eurofighters. 17 all told. Might be able to pick up 8 of them at a nice price!

sparky42 · 23-02-2020 10:33am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Good to see all the regulars have bucked up their ideas and are looking at more ambitious plans going forward. By the way....slightly off topic , but read that the Spanish are flogging off some block 1 Eurofighters. 17 all told. Might be able to pick up 8 of them at a nice price!

Think we're just ripping the p!ss out of you to be fair.

roundymac · 23-02-2020 2:16pm

The FCA lads would get sea-sick.

Markcheese · 23-02-2020 7:02pm

roundymac wrote: »

The FCA lads would get sea-sick.

Are slua na marra still going ? Maybe I got the name wrong , anyway marine version of the fca ,

jonnybigwallet · 23-02-2020 8:45pm

I'm a member!

Leonidas BL · 24-02-2020 12:19am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

I'm a member!

You should forward your ideas to the quartermaster

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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