Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Heavyweight Boxing

Options
1…167168170172173…470

Comments

  • Options
    #5072
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    See that what annoys me people say ah forget about that fight Mike was over the hill, it was Mike fault he looked like **** Lewis was a year older and way better ,
    If you wana get in there and fight and say this that and the other you better back it up , not say ah well i was over the hill then ,

    It's an absolute fact that in 2002 he was well over the hill

    Why he was is not relevant.......he was, that is my point.

    LL was not way over the hill. Lewis was, at that time, the best HW on the planet...again, fact!


  • Options
    #5073
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    walshb wrote: »
    Tyson at 220 lbs easily gets inside Liston's jab.....it's a jab, for chrissake...let's not make it out to be some nuclear warhead.

    Liston gets ridiculously overrated....I have seen the Ali fights. Liston barely laid a glove on Ali, so Ali's claim doesn't mean anything here in terms of Liston v Tyson. Both hit hard. Tyson for me a far deadlier overall puncher.

    He beat a blown up MW, in Floyd Patterson......that's about it......

    When faced with a bigger man in Clay, and then Ali he was exposed...

    He was done by Ali, either not bothered or intimidated by the Nation of Islam. Much like people give Tyson a pass for being done by Lewis. Liston was the same age when he fought Ali as Tyson was when he fought Lewis.

    But that Ali may be the greatest boxer of all time.

    However, look at Listons fights against Patterson (about the same size) and Cleveland Williams who was bigger. Great movement and chin, one of the best jabs in HW history and always moving. He had 3 or 4 really really good years.




  • Options
    #5074
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The Nal wrote: »
    He was done by Ali, either not bothered on intimidated by the Nation of Islam. Much like people give Tyson a pass for being done by Lewis.

    But that Ali may be the greatest boxer of all time.

    However, look at Listons fights against Patterson (about the same size) and Cleveland Williams who was bigger. Great movement and chin, one of the best jabs in HW history and always moving. He had 3 or 4 really really good years.



    Floyd Patterson was a blown up MW, and one of history's weakest ever HW champions......

    The Patterson win is in now way an indicator of what Sonny could do to a mane 25-30 lbs heavier than Patterson.....who hits far harder than Patterson and is far more aggressive and far stronger....

    The fight cannot go long, because Liston won't run, and can't run. He either takes Mike out, or he is taken out.......


  • Options
    #5075
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    walshb wrote: »
    Tyson at 220 lbs easily gets inside Liston's jab.....it's a jab, for chrissake...let's not make it out to be some nuclear warhead.

    Liston gets ridiculously overrated....I have seen the Ali fights. Liston barely laid a glove on Ali, so Ali's claim doesn't mean anything here in terms of Liston v Tyson. Both hit hard. Tyson for me a far deadlier overall puncher.

    He beat a blown up MW, in Floyd Patterson......that's about it......

    When faced with a bigger man in Clay, and then Ali he was exposed...

    Tyson just goes straight to Liston...this fight cannot last....And Mike's chin for me was very sturdy

    Hits as hard, if not harder. Far more aggressive, and a lethal finisher....who won't be able to spoil like a Tucker or Smith. Too really big men for Mike.

    It's not just a jab though is it. One of the best jabs in heavyweight history, if not the best. Wasn't a pawing jab either, it was a pure weapon that hurt fighters and made them reluctant to commit. 84inch reach too.

    The Liston that fought Ali wasn't prime Liston. I think the second Cleveland Williams fight is when Liston was at his most destructive. Around the time of 1959/60 he was the complete package imo. Not a foregone conclusion for Mike at all imo.


  • Options
    #5076
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    walshb wrote: »
    It's an absolute fact that in 2002 he was well over the hill

    Why he was is not relevant.......he was, that is my point.

    LL was not way over the hill. Lewis was, at that time, the best HW on the planet...again, fact!

    We are agreing with each other Lennox was great, Tyson was pants, my only point was Lennox was older than Mike at that point, People" not you " make age an excuse for that lose on Mikes behalf, Im saying at that stage he was mentally done,


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5077
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    We are agreing with each other Lennox was great, Tyson was pants, my only point was Lennox was older than Mike at that point, People" not you " make age an excuse for that lose on Mikes behalf, Im saying at that stage he was mentally done,

    Age means nothing here.

    Not sure why you bring it up..

    Just watch the two of them in the fight, and analyse both their careers up to the fight..

    Tyson was a shell..complete. Lennox was still very capable. Number 1..

    Different fighters and athletes can peak and diminish at different stages due to a number of factors..


  • Options
    #5078
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    walshb wrote: »
    Age means nothing here.

    Not sure why you bring it up..

    Just watch the two of them in the fight, and analyse both their careers up to the fight..

    Tyson was a shell..complete. Lennox was still very capable. Number 1..

    Different fighters and athletes can peak and diminish at different stages due to a number of factors..

    Time at the top counts for a lot when you start to consider greats ,


  • Options
    #5079
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Time at the top counts for a lot when you start to consider greats ,

    Longevity is a key metric yeah.


  • Options
    #5080
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    The Nal wrote: »
    Longevity is a key metric yeah.

    Of course , in very few other sports you would never count one or two season wonders as greats ,


  • Options
    #5081
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Time at the top counts for a lot when you start to consider greats ,

    I think our wires have crossed

    I meant that age means nothing here in relation to Lewis v Tyson fight 2002...

    You mentioned Lewis being similar age........as if it means that the fight was both them being pretty much the same...

    They were pretty much the same age...I know this....

    But Tyson was a complete shell of a fighter in 2002. Lewis was not. Lewis was still very very good. Best in the world.

    Longevity and success through years is very influential when assessing greatness. I get this..

    Mike had maybe 6 years at the top or near it......not too shabby at all, considering prison cost him almost 4 years.....his fault, that.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5082
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    walshb wrote: »

    Mike had maybe 6 years at the top or near it......not too shabby at all, considering prison cost him almost 4 years.....his fault, that.

    6 years is generous but yeah either way, Tyson never fought aged 25, 26, 27 and 28.


  • Options
    #5083
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The Nal wrote: »
    6 years is generous but yeah either way, Tyson never fought aged 25, 26, 27 and 28.

    It's not generous...he was at the top, or near the top in all those years...

    1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1995, 1996

    The first four calendar years he was a monster...circa 10-0 in HW championship fights.....


  • Options
    #5084
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    walshb wrote: »
    It's not generous...he was at the top, or near the top in all those years...

    1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1995, 1996

    The first four calendar years he was a monster...circa 10-0 in HW championship fights.....

    Again, very generous.

    KO'd by Buster Douglas in 90.

    2 fights in 95, one was Peter McNeely.

    KO'd by Holyfield in 96.


  • Options
    #5085
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    The Nal wrote: »
    Again, very generous.

    KO'd by Buster Douglas in 90.

    2 fights in 95, one was Peter McNeely.

    KO'd by Holyfield in 96.

    I never discussed his win losses. I simply stated that in those years he was at or near the top...

    He was.....he had wins and losses in 1990 and 1996....he was still a top rated HW

    And, I always have had reservations about his 1996 loss to Holyfield.....

    Holyfield to me during these years was very suspicious as regards what was in the body...

    Even removing two years, he still gets 5-6 years at the top.


  • Options
    #5086
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,702 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    walshb wrote: »
    I never discussed his win losses. I simply stated that in those years he was at or near the top...

    He was.....he had wins and losses in 1990 and 1996....he was still a top rated HW

    And, I always have had reservations about his 1996 loss to Holyfield.....

    Holyfield to me during these years was very suspicious as regards what was in the body...

    Even removing two years, he still gets 5-6 years at the top.

    ah now, you go mad whenever anyone raises doubts about boxers who dope and here you are doing the same thing :P


  • Options
    #5087
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    walshb wrote: »

    Holyfield to me during these years was very suspicious as regards what was in the body...

    Im more than very suspicious about Holyfield and juicing.


  • Options
    #5088
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    The Nal wrote: »
    Im more than very suspicious about Holyfield and juicing.

    Surely we all think they where all at it back then ?


  • Options
    #5089
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Cyrus wrote: »
    ah now, you go mad whenever anyone raises doubts about boxers who dope and here you are doing the same thing :P

    I know....

    But there is a lot written about Holyfield on this.

    I have real suspicions here....that is all....I think many many do...

    I don't apply the same level of suspicion to every person who has rumors...

    It's all down to levels. Holyfield would be high on the suspicion level for me.


  • Options
    #5090
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,676 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Surely we all think they where all at it back then ?

    I don't think that follows....

    Some were, and some were not. Like all sports....


  • Options
    #5091
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    walshb wrote: »
    I don't think that follows....

    Some were, and some were not. Like all sports....

    Testing was pants back In the day,
    Nearly the top guys where far more muscular than todays heavy weights bar AJ and Wald , and strangely all seems to have decent cardio to go with it ,


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5092
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Plenty of question marks over Tyson himself during that era. When a common word used to describe a fighter as being ‘freakish’ you often wonder why


  • Options
    #5093
    Bobby Baccala
    Registered Users Posts: 7,341 ✭✭✭Bobby Baccala


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Plenty of question marks over Tyson himself during that era. When a common word used to describe a fighter as being ‘freakish’ you often wonder why

    Him and Holyfield were probably both at it along with half the other heavys out there at the time. Look at Frank Bruno in the early 90s ffs, walking around like something out of WWE.


  • Options
    #5094
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Bobby Baccala wrote: »
    Him and Holyfield were probably both at it along with half the other heavys out there at the time. Look at Frank Bruno in the early 90s ffs, walking around like something out of WWE.

    He certainly wasn’t on anything to increase stamina


  • Options
    #5095
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,604 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    squinn2912 wrote:
    Plenty of question marks over Tyson himself during that era. When a common word used to describe a fighter as being ‘freakish’ you often wonder why
    Don King destroyed Mike Tyson.
    He was under Cus D'Amato's tutelage both inside and outside the ring and Kevin Rooney became his trainer under D'Amato. D'Amato passed away in '95 and Rooney became his mentor as well as his trainer. Rooney got fired after the Spinks fight by King. Lots of the top analysts put his loss 18 months later to Douglas down to the fact that Rooney was no longer with him. I'm talking about Larry Merchant and Jerry Isenberg amongst others.
    The Mike Tyson that fought under Cus D'Amato's and Kevin Rooney was the best there ever was imo.


  • Options
    #5096
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Don King destroyed Mike Tyson.
    He was under Cus D'Amato's tutelage both inside and outside the ring and Kevin Rooney became his trainer under D'Amato. D'Amato passed away in '95 and Rooney became his mentor as well as his trainer. Rooney got fired after the Spinks fight by King. Lots of the top analysts put his loss 18 months later to Douglas down to the fact that Rooney was no longer with him. I'm talking about Larry Merchant and Jerry Isenberg amongst others.
    The Mike Tyson that fought under Cus D'Amato's and Kevin Rooney was the best there ever was imo.

    No arguments here about King, Cus or Rooney. That night on a one off against any other fighter on their best night he’d be a tough proposition for sure. Best ever is impossible to gauge I think there are a number who would have a good chance of beating him even at that stage. Lewis, foreman, Holmes, bowe, klit x2, Holyfield, Liston abd Ali spring to mind in no particular order. Think you can make arguments for any of those and for Tyson too.
    Whether or not he and many others were on enhancers is a different issue.


  • Options
    #5097
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Tyson firing Rooney is right up there with the worst decisions in the history of sport.


  • Options
    #5098
    ElBastardo1
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ElBastardo1


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    No arguments here about King, Cus or Rooney. That night on a one off against any other fighter on their best night he’d be a tough proposition for sure. Best ever is impossible to gauge I think there are a number who would have a good chance of beating him even at that stage. Lewis, foreman, Holmes, bowe, klit x2, Holyfield, Liston abd Ali spring to mind in no particular order. Think you can make arguments for any of those and for Tyson too.
    Whether or not he and many others were on enhancers is a different issue.

    Mike Tyson was a product, he was the star and he was the biggest money spinner in boxing in years. The whole 'after Cus died' story that was the end of him story is just that. Regardless of cus dying, MT was now a man with Don King in his ear, there is a chance with all the hype and head turning he would of gone off the rails anyway. I've always felt people liked the Cus / Tyson Father / Son story, but who knows where that could have went.

    People love hype, I remember watching Joshua v Klit in a pub in town and a young lad who was maybe 20 was telling his friends that his father was a massive boxing fan and Joshua was the best boxer his father had ever seen since Tyson. now, anyone with boxing knowledge knows this is horse sh1t.


  • Options
    #5099
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    ElBastardo1 wrote: »
    Mike Tyson was a product, he was the star and he was the biggest money spinner in boxing in years. The whole 'after Cus died' story that was the end of him story is just that. Regardless of cus dying, MT was now a man with Don King in his ear, there is a chance with all the hype and head turning he would of gone off the rails anyway. I've always felt people liked the Cus / Tyson Father / Son story, but who knows where that could have went.

    People love hype, I remember watching Joshua v Klit in a pub in town and a young lad who was maybe 20 was telling his friends that his father was a massive boxing fan and Joshua was the best boxer his father had ever seen since Tyson. now, anyone with boxing knowledge knows this is horse sh1t.

    I can imagine you clenching your pint in a fit of rage! Who should we be mad at, the father for talking sh1t, the son for believing it or Joshua for being himself?

    That’s a sensible point about cus. Tyson was always liable to do that


  • Options
    #5100
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,513 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Tyson just stopped moving after he fired Rooney. Became a standard brawler.

    Immediate difference. Tysons first fight after firing Rooney was Bruno and it was the first time Tyson was in trouble. A better boxer could've finished him in round 1.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #5101
    ElBastardo1
    Registered Users Posts: 306 ✭✭ElBastardo1


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    I can imagine you clenching your pint in a fit of rage! Who should we be mad at, the father for talking sh1t, the son for believing it or Joshua for being himself?

    That’s a sensible point about cus. Tyson was always liable to do that

    I know the young lad was doing no harm, but he said this over and over again, how Joshua was unbeatable. I remember watching the Ruiz fight last year thinking " I hope that lad is watching this fight now". Joshua is very limited, his size and power sees him through most fights.

    People still go on today about Tyson being the best ever. I think people that don't watch boxing think that. He could have had a better record if he wasn't such a scum bag. His stint in prison and his druggy lifestyle destroyed his legacy.


Advertisement