Madeleine McCann

16-03-2019 11:34pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Did you ever think the parents might be responsible in any way? If not, I doubt your posts quite frankly.

We all need to have an open mind.

Unless the parents are the offenders. Which I don't know, then no they are not responsible for her disappearance just because they left the kids alone.

limnam · 16-03-2019 11:36pm

bubblypop wrote: »

A victim of a crime is never to blame, & yes her family are also victims in this case.

Not if they committed the crime..

Either way. Their responsible for the protection of their kids.

They failed to protect them.

Trekker09 · 16-03-2019 11:36pm

limnam wrote: »

You seem to think if lots of people neglect their kids. it's fine.

Bizzare.

You seen to jump to conclusions.

Also bizzare.

Prey tell where i indicated that it's OK to neglect kids

splinter65 · 16-03-2019 11:39pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

limnam wrote: »

Not if they committed the crime..

Either way. Their responsible for the protection of their kids.

They failed to protect them.

There’s no evidence they committed any crime of any description. They’re not responsible for the disappearance of their child.

16-03-2019 11:39pm

limnam wrote: »

They failed to protect them.

Do all parents of abducted & murdered children hold some responsibility? They failed to protect their children?

limnam · 16-03-2019 11:41pm

Trekker09 wrote: »

You seen to jump to conclusions.

Also bizzare.

Prey tell where i indicated that it's OK to neglect kids

Sorry i had your words and another username in my mind.

As you were good man.

Spanish Eyes · 16-03-2019 11:42pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Did the driver intend to hit your child? Did he go out of his way to run over your child, or was it an accident?
If it was an accident, then it is not comparable to the McCann case.
If, assuming she did not disappear herself, someone was responsible for her disappearance, then it's fairly likely it was done on purpose, correct?
Not the same situation.
A victim of a crime is never to blame, & yes her family are also victims in this case.

Just wondered when the word "disappear" became a verb. I am sure you will tell me soon enough. Sounds like pre GFA to me but so be it.

limnam · 16-03-2019 11:42pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Do all parents of abducted & murdered children hold some responsibility? They failed to protect their children?

No, just the ones that failed to do the basics and protect their children.

If they all fcked off to the restaurant drinking and eating while their kids under 4 were at home alone. Then yes.

Trekker09 · 16-03-2019 11:42pm

splinter65 wrote: »

My own neighbor was staying for a week in a very nice 4 star hotel in Crete ( she tells this story still 25 years later) and every day the tired the kids a boy and a girl aged 7 and 5 out to the extent where once they’d had their tea and a bath they were collapsing into bed at 7 to fall asleep and not wake until morning allowing my neighbor and her husband to get dolled up quietly and go down to the “posh” restaurant for dinner.
The husband would pop up to the room between courses to check on them.
Just tucking into the entree on the 4th night they were utterly mortified to see the porter weaving his way through the candlelit tables with a child by either hand looking shamefaced and wide awake. He’d apprehended them leaving to “go for a walk” right at the front door.

Now that is just damned scary.

When my wife and I used to go on holiday when the kids were small we'd book a place where we had plenty of room to sit out in the evening and have a couple of drinks.

KikiLaRue · 16-03-2019 11:47pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Do all parents of abducted & murdered children hold some responsibility? They failed to protect their children?

If they left them unsupervised in an unfamiliar apartment in a foreign country, yes.

dark crystal · 16-03-2019 11:47pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just wondered when the word "disappear" became a verb. I am sure you will tell me soon enough. Sounds like pre GFA to me but so be it.

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2013/08/disappear.html

American Heritage says the transitive “disappear” means “to cause (someone) to disappear, especially by kidnapping or murder.” Merriam-Webster’s defines it as “to cause the disappearance of.” Neither dictionary has any lexical reservations about the usage.

16-03-2019 11:47pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just wondered when the word "disappear" became a verb. I am sure you will tell me soon enough. Sounds like pre GFA to me but so be it.

To disappear someone is wildly used when someone is forcibly dissapeared by someone else. Like the IRA used to.
But if course you know exactly what I mean, not sure why you want to discuss English grammar.

iamwhoiam · 16-03-2019 11:48pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Trekker09 wrote: »

Now that is just damned scary.

When my wife and I used to go on holiday when the kids were small we'd book a place where we had plenty of room to sit out in the evening and have a couple of drinks.

As do the vast majority of responsible , sensible and loving parents

16-03-2019 11:48pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

If they left them unsupervised in an unfamiliar apartment in a foreign country, yes.

Nope.

Spanish Eyes · 16-03-2019 11:48pm

Really, for most rational parents, the bottom line is that they are your primary priority and responsibility when they are young.

They will grow up eventually whew. But whilst they are your kids of a young age you look after them and go on hols to places where you can sit on your terrace with the kids in their rooms behind you.

We have all done it, and with gratitude. Knowing they are safe and we can hear them.

KikiLaRue · 16-03-2019 11:50pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Nope.

So, do you think it's a normal thing that most parents should feel comfortable with doing? How long is it acceptable to live three children alone in apartment for? One hour? Two? Six?

Where would you draw the line?

Mam of 4 · 16-03-2019 11:52pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Do all parents of abducted & murdered children hold some responsibility? They failed to protect their children?

But isn't that the elephant in the room as it were ?
No one knows whether Madeleine was abducted or not , or murdered , or wandered off .

Unless they are the abductor/s or murderer/s .

But if she was abducted/murdered , then yes , the parents share in the responsibility of that for the simple fact of leaving their children unattended . Imo .

splinter65 · 16-03-2019 11:53pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Trekker09 wrote: »

Now that is just damned scary.

When my wife and I used to go on holiday when the kids were small we'd book a place where we had plenty of room to sit out in the evening and have a couple of drinks.

This lady is a now retired primary school teacher who only had these two precious children after nearly ten years of trying.
I know another lady now in her 70s who when she had 4 children took the same holiday rental house every year the same fortnight in Lahinch. The house was facing the beach in a terrace. The year they went when her youngest child was still a baby sleeping in a cot they just got up in the morning fed the children and left to troop across the road for a day on the beach leaving the baby to go back to sleep in his cot, alone upstairs in the house with the key in the front door so that his mam and dad could go back and forth during the morning to check on him.
As the youngest he was forgotten and left and lost in beauty spots and tourist attractions and supermarkets and in airports all over the place for his entire childhood.
He’s an electrical engineer.

Spanish Eyes · 16-03-2019 11:53pm

bubblypop wrote: »

To disappear someone is wildly used when someone is forcibly dissapeared by someone else. Like the IRA used to.
But if course you know exactly what I mean, not sure why you want to discuss English grammar.

I did mention GFA, and you have said everything I thought. Thank you.

Anyway, not to have an argument, "disappeared" is not a verb here in the good ole Republic of Ireland. Well at least I have never heard it mentioned outside of the Northern Troubles. I know I am not alone there either. It has a certain connotation really.

16-03-2019 11:59pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

So, do you think it's a normal thing that most parents should feel comfortable with doing? How long is it acceptable to live three children alone in apartment for? One hour? Two? Six?

Where would you draw the line?

I have already stated that it was very irresponsible, I believe everyone knows that.
It doesn't make them responsible for her disappearance though.

17-03-2019 12:01am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I did mention GFA, and you have said everything I thought. Thank you.

Anyway, not to have an argument, "disappeared" is not a verb here in the good ole Republic of Ireland. Well at least I have never heard it mentioned outside of the Northern Troubles. I know I am not alone there either. It has a certain connotation really.

Actually I spent time in the Balkans, & yes it is used there also in relation to persons who dissapeared during the war there.
Anyway, completely off topic

Spanish Eyes · 17-03-2019 12:02am

bubblypop wrote: »

I have already stated that it was very irresponsible, I believe everyone knows that.
It doesn't make them responsible for her disappearance though.

Why not? If they were there with their children, on the balcony with a takeaway and bottle of wine, would the "disappearance" have happened do you think?

KikiLaRue · 17-03-2019 12:04am

bubblypop wrote: »

I have already stated that it was very irresponsible, I believe everyone knows that.
It doesn't make them responsible for her disappearance though.

So you're admitting they abdicated their responsibilities as parents.

If the question is: "Are the McCann's directly responsible if Madeleine was abducted by a third party?" the answer is no.

If the question is "Did the McCann's negligence create the opportunity for Madeleine's abduction?" the answer is quite clearly yes.

Spanish Eyes · 17-03-2019 12:04am

bubblypop wrote: »

Actually I spent time in the Balkans, & yes it is used there also in relation to persons who dissapeared during the war there.
Anyway, completely off topic

You mentioned the verb "disappeared", no one else did. And you have actually correlated the word with conflict and war. Oh dear.

17-03-2019 12:04am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Why not? If they were there with their children, on the balcony with a takeaway and bottle of wine, would the "disappearance" have happened do you think?

Who knows.
Maybe they could have been asleep in bed & it could have happened.
Maybe it could have happened when she was at kids club.
There were other kids left alone in the apartments that did not disappear.

Mantis Toboggan · 17-03-2019 12:04am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Took a while to get going but 4 episodes in its quite good.

17-03-2019 12:06am

KikiLaRue wrote: »

If the question is "Did the McCann's negligence create the opportunity for Madeleine's abduction?" the answer is quite clearly yes.

That is a different question, it does not make them responsible for the actions of any offender.

Spanish Eyes · 17-03-2019 12:08am

bubblypop wrote: »

That is a different question, it does not make them responsible for the actions of any offender.

Not a different question, and in fairness you know this.

But I admire your tenacity. A bit like Theresa May at this point in time.

17-03-2019 12:15am

Some of us have to work in the morn, so bedtime for me.

It appears to me that people want to blame someone, which is human nature.
In the absence of any evidence as to what happened to Madeline, many people want to blame the parents.
The only thing we can all agree on is that the should not have left the kids alone. So many people seem to think it is somehow their fault.
A victim is never at fault in a crime. The offender is always the person to blame. & that's it.

KikiLaRue · 17-03-2019 12:19am

bubblypop wrote: »

Some of us have to work in the morn, so bedtime for me.

It appears to me that people want to blame someone, which is human nature.
In the absence of any evidence as to what happened to Madeline, many people want to blame the parents.
The only thing we can all agree on is that the should not have left the kids alone. So many people seem to think it is somehow their fault.
A victim is never at fault in a crime. The offender is always the person to blame. & that's it.

You’re just wrong about that.

Let’s say John hits Peter and Peter hits John back. If John hits his head on the curb and dies, Peter is guilty of killing him.

But a defense lawyer can successfully argue that it was manslaughter or even self-defence because John threw the first punch i.e. the victim of the crime was also at fault.

Spanish Eyes · 17-03-2019 12:27am

bubblypop wrote: »

Some of us have to work in the morn, so bedtime for me.

It appears to me that people want to blame someone, which is human nature.
In the absence of any evidence as to what happened to Madeline, many people want to blame the parents.
The only thing we can all agree on is that the should not have left the kids alone. So many people seem to think it is somehow their fault.
A victim is never at fault in a crime. The offender is always the person to blame. & that's it.

To be fair how could anyone blame the victim at all. No one would ever do that. You miss the point I think.

Since the offender is unidentified. S/he could be anyone. But I doubt it was a stranger myself. Just because of the unobserved monitoring of the babes really. That's all. It really was neglectful. IMO.

Most parents would agree.

Plumbthedepths · 17-03-2019 12:55am

bubblypop wrote:

Unless the parents are the offenders. Which I don't know, then no they are not responsible for her disappearance just because they left the kids alone.

Irresponsible parents not responsible.

Plumbthedepths · 17-03-2019 1:23am

bubblypop wrote:

, it does not make them responsible for the actions of any offender.

But they're behaviour allowed the actions of an offender, if there was one.

Plumbthedepths · 17-03-2019 1:27am

splinter65 wrote:

But they werenâ€™t left alone. They were being checked every half hour.

splinter65 wrote:

This lady is a now retired primary school teacher who only had these two precious children after nearly ten years of trying. I know another lady now in her 70s who when she had 4 children took the same holiday rental house every year the same fortnight in Lahinch. The house was facing the beach in a terrace. The year they went when her youngest child was still a baby sleeping in a cot they just got up in the morning fed the children and left to troop across the road for a day on the beach leaving the baby to go back to sleep in his cot, alone upstairs in the house with the key in the front door so that his mam and dad could go back and forth during the morning to check on him. As the youngest he was forgotten and left and lost in beauty spots and tourist attractions and supermarkets and in airports all over the place for his entire childhood. Heâ€™s an electrical engineer.

You expect anyone to believe you when you stated the above about the McCann children being left alone. Zero credibility.

Juwwi · 17-03-2019 2:07am

Something Else

splinter65 wrote: »

This lady is a now retired primary school teacher who only had these two precious children after nearly ten years of trying.
I know another lady now in her 70s who when she had 4 children took the same holiday rental house every year the same fortnight in Lahinch. The house was facing the beach in a terrace. The year they went when her youngest child was still a baby sleeping in a cot they just got up in the morning fed the children and left to troop across the road for a day on the beach leaving the baby to go back to sleep in his cot, alone upstairs in the house with the key in the front door so that his mam and dad could go back and forth during the morning to check on him.
As the youngest he was forgotten and left and lost in beauty spots and tourist attractions and supermarkets and in airports all over the place for his entire childhood.
He’s an electrical engineer.

l hope he doesn't read this and disown them .

Plumbthedepths · 17-03-2019 2:12am

Juwwi wrote:

l hope he doesn't read this and disown them .

Honestly do you believe that rubbish?

LETHAL LADY · 17-03-2019 3:15am

I've tried my best to keep an open mind about this case. I'm watching episode 5 now and growing ever cynical.
Can someone please explain to me why it was acceptable for the Rothley community to feel aggrieved by press intrusion but not the Praia da Luz community?
The PR team supporting the McCanns also appear to be really horrible people.

17-03-2019 8:25am

KikiLaRue wrote: »

You’re just wrong about that.

Let’s say John hits Peter and Peter hits John back. If John hits his head on the curb and dies, Peter is guilty of killing him.

But a defense lawyer can successfully argue that it was manslaughter or even self-defence because John threw the first punch i.e. the victim of the crime was also at fault.

Not exactly. This is an assault situation, but however, Peter is guilty of manslaughter, he is the offender. T he reason he is guilty of manslaughter & not murder is mitigating circumstances, it took place during an assault. Now John is the victim of manslaughter because he is dead. The offender is still guilty because he did not have to punch him back, but he did & then he killed him.

A more appropriate situation would be, if I was in my mother's house & i leave the front window open while I go out the back garden. If someone gets into my mother's sitting room through the open window, am I responsible?
No doubt some victim blamers in here would think yes. They are wrong however, the offender is responsible. As in this case.

thomas 123 · 17-03-2019 9:18am

Accident happened, parents hid body

bubblypop wrote: »

Not exactly. This is an assault situation, but however, Peter is guilty of manslaughter, he is the offender. T he reason he is guilty of manslaughter & not murder is mitigating circumstances, it took place during an assault. Now John is the victim of manslaughter because he is dead. The offender is still guilty because he did not have to punch him back, but he did & then he killed him.

A more appropriate situation would be, if I was in my mother's house & i leave the front window open while I go out the back garden. If someone gets into my mother's sitting room through the open window, am I responsible?
No doubt some victim blamers in here would think yes. They are wrong however, the offender is responsible. As in this case.

Personally you would be responsible - which her parents feel no doubt.
Your mother / family would blame you.
In the eyes of the law, no.

But say you left a dog/cat in a hot car and it nearly died. Is it the suns fault or yours?

splinter65 · 17-03-2019 10:20am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You expect anyone to believe you when you stated the above about the McCann children being left alone. Zero credibility.

You can only speak for yourself. You don’t speak for anyone else. It’s neither here nor there, nor does it matter to me, wether you believe me or not. I, like you, am only here to give my opinion. Take it or leave it. You don’t have any more or less credibility then anyone else here. You’re an anonymous poster on a chat room forum. Everyone here is. I don’t think you understand that but that’s not a problem.

Lashes28 · 17-03-2019 10:31am

Accident happened, parents hid body

Does anyone know if the McCann's have ever reached out to Robert Murat? His life has been destroyed and all he tried to do was help them.

Nobody knows what happened her.

But it was really foolish for the McCann's to not have seen that the public would turn on them.

Would you expect the world to give you sympathy of you left 10 grand sitting unlocked in your car only to come back and find it stolen?

pleas advice · 17-03-2019 10:43am

bubblypop wrote: »

A more appropriate situation would be, if I was in my mother's house & i leave the front window open while I go out the back garden. If someone gets into my mother's sitting room through the open window, am I responsible?
No doubt some victim blamers in here would think yes. They are wrong however, the offender is responsible. As in this case.

Do you lock your front door at night? If your housemate came home drunk one night and left the door open, and the house was robbed would you say 'ah, no worries. Not your fault at all...'

splinter65 · 17-03-2019 10:51am

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Lashes28 wrote: »

Does anyone know if the McCann's have ever reached out to Robert Murat? His life has been destroyed and all he tried to do was help them.

Nobody knows what happened her.

But it was really foolish for the McCann's to not have seen that the public would turn on them.

Would you expect the world to give you sympathy of you left 10 grand sitting unlocked in your car only to come back and find it stolen?

The McCanns didn’t do anything to Mr Murat. In the middle of their nightmare you want them to “reach out to him”? In what way?

limnam · 17-03-2019 11:35am

As a parent you cannot protect your kids from everything.

What you can do is your best and act with their safety at the forefront of everything you do. Especially so young. Especially in unfamiliar surroundings.

Heading of to a restaurant drinking with your pals leaving the kids in unsecured apartment that has public access is the complete opposite of the above. Selfishness/carelessness/negligent.

If this was there only mistake and everything afterwards was them acting in the best interest of the kids. I could probably find a way to put it to one side. So many questionable actions after it that you at some point run out of passes to give them.

I don't know if they're involved or not, but there actions before and after are all wrong.

Lashes28 · 17-03-2019 11:38am

Accident happened, parents hid body

I'm not sure if you just want to nit pick and argue with every comment that gets posted

I didn't say the McCann's did anything to him

I just wondered if they reached out to the innocent man that got sucked in to the shît storm and had his whole life ruined by the media when all he did was try to help translate.
Their nightmare became a nightmare for him too

Plumbthedepths · 17-03-2019 11:53am

splinter65 wrote:

You can only speak for yourself. You donâ€™t speak for anyone else. Itâ€™s neither here nor there, nor does it matter to me, wether you believe me or not. I, like you, am only here to give my opinion. Take it or leave it. You donâ€™t have any more or less credibility then anyone else here. Youâ€™re an anonymous poster on a chat room forum. Everyone here is. I donâ€™t think you understand that but thatâ€™s not a problem.

You have shown yourself willing to lie and twist the comments of others to to try and elicit an actionable response. As I said you have no credibility whatsoever.

splinter65 · 17-03-2019 1:39pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Lashes28 wrote: »

I'm not sure if you just want to nit pick and argue with every comment that gets posted

I didn't say the McCann's did anything to him

I just wondered if they reached out to the innocent man that got sucked in to the shît storm and had his whole life ruined by the media when all he did was try to help translate.
Their nightmare became a nightmare for him too

In the middle of their nightmare looking for their daughter under the glare of the entire world trying to deal with the bile and the death threats and the police Gerry should have said to Kate “Do you know who is the real victim in this? Not Madeleine not me not you not the twins. It’s that poor man Robert Murat. Let’s reach out to him to comfort him in his hours of agony”. Sure.

splinter65 · 17-03-2019 1:42pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You have shown yourself willing to lie and twist the comments of others to to try and elicit an actionable response. As I said you have no credibility whatsoever.

You don’t have any more credibility than me. I can keep this up as long as you like.

Plumbthedepths · 17-03-2019 1:45pm

splinter65 wrote:

You donâ€™t have any more credibility than me. I can keep this up as long as you like.

Yet I have not resorted to lying or twisting the words of others I disagree with, the fact I don't resort to your behaviour gives me credibility. Do as you wish you don't need my consent or permission. ;-)

tretorn · 17-03-2019 1:49pm

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

bubblypop wrote: »

Not exactly. This is an assault situation, but however, Peter is guilty of manslaughter, he is the offender. T he reason he is guilty of manslaughter & not murder is mitigating circumstances, it took place during an assault. Now John is the victim of manslaughter because he is dead. The offender is still guilty because he did not have to punch him back, but he did & then he killed him.

A more appropriate situation would be, if I was in my mother's house & i leave the front window open while I go out the back garden. If someone gets into my mother's sitting room through the open window, am I responsible?
No doubt some victim blamers in here would think yes. They are wrong however, the offender is responsible. As in this case.

Well, yes you are responsible if the window opening is large enough for someone to climb through. Most sensible people dont leave front windows that are visible from the road open, you sound quite lax about your personal security.

The Mc Cann parents are responsible for what happened, they were lucky enough to get away with taking chances with their childrens safety 99 per cent of the time but eventually their luck ran out. Hopefully other parents who left their children in holiday resorts learnt a lesson from this and either stayed in the apartment with their children or else paid babysitters to act in loco parentis.

Madeleine McCann

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