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Was there ever slave trading or slaves in Ireland.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 224 ✭✭Cheeble


    CDfm wrote: »
    .... So my question is was there slavery or slaves in Ireland and/or did slave ships operate from Irish Ports.

    From Independent.ie:

    Sunday May 28 2006

    JEROME REILLY
    "WOMEN from 12 different nations are now officially known to have been trafficked into Ireland and effectively forced into slavery over the last six years, disturbing new research has revealed. As the sex industry in Ireland comes under the control of organised international criminal gangs, the absence of tough legislation on trafficking has turned this country into a destination of choicefor the traffickers."


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Cheeble wrote: »
    From Independent.ie:

    Sunday May 28 2006

    JEROME REILLY
    "WOMEN from 12 different nations are now officially known to have been trafficked into Ireland and effectively forced into slavery over the last six years, disturbing new research has revealed. As the sex industry in Ireland comes under the control of organised international criminal gangs, the absence of tough legislation on trafficking has turned this country into a destination of choicefor the traffickers."
    that doesent count,because the british are not involved


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Dublin was a slave trading center under the vikings


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    getz wrote: »
    that doesent count,because the british are not involved

    specifically - my question is more about slavery as a legal trade.

    too right its wrong to approve of the human traffic of any person and especially young women as prostitutes


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭DublinDes


    getz wrote: »
    that doesent count,because the british are not involved
    How do you know that their aren't ? And if their is, aren't they just following in the foot steps of Britain's greatest ' heros ' such as Drake and Raleigh ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    DublinDes wrote: »
    How do you know that their aren't ? And if their is, aren't they just following in the foot steps of Britain's greatest ' heros ' such as Drake and Raleigh ?

    But - in other societies like africa - the whites did not go in country but got their slaves from other africans or arabs. So they had local suppliers. I wonder what happened in ireland.

    in baltimore - a local irish chief directed the arab pirates

    so wre there any native irish complicit in the trade of irish slaves then?

    the original question was if irish were involved in the tramsportation or commerce of slaves from irish ports so this is off topic but a very interesting off topic

    prisoners may not have been put to thr sword but sold into slavery

    EDIT - I found this link - while it seems there was african slave trade - it does seem to be limited

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=ATq5_6h2AT0C&pg=PT258&lpg=PT258&dq=african+slave+trade+ireland+and+irish+ports&source=bl&ots=5LPbt8XPx5&sig=RVhauqvCSBoe9pQQ5GUZPobnCdA&hl=en&ei=l9MWS6DnA962jAeoqOmMBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CCkQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=african%20slave%20trade%20ireland%20and%20irish%20ports&f=false


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055533740&highlight=irish+slaves

    This was posted a while ago and opened my eyes to Irish slaves...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    DublinDes wrote: »
    How do you know that their aren't ? And if their is, aren't they just following in the foot steps of Britain's greatest ' heros ' such as Drake and Raleigh ?

    Clever. Less of this stuff, stick to the historical facts. Mod.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Here isa link to a book review that details some involvement including mentioning a black american who spoke irish,Samuel Burke
    http://www.irlandeses.org/0711burtonb1.htm

    odgers’ analysis of Ireland’s connection with the slave trade highlights some undisputed facts. Since Britain governed Ireland on the garrison principal, treating the island as a colony in its imperial mercantile system, imposing taxes and exporting goods, such as butter and beef, to West Indian plantations, the island’s economy languished under British control. Ireland’s exclusion from membership of the slave-trading Royal Africa Company - whose initials, RAC, were branded into the chests of Africans - meant that the island was banned from participation in the infamous triangular trade for most of the eighteenth century. With Ireland’s economy subservient to Britain’s economy, it lacked the capacity to produce the wide range of manufactured goods demanded by the dehumanising commerce in people, including chains, cooking pots, cutlery, trading irons, and firearms, all produced in Britain. Maintaining a well-funded lobby at Westminster, planters of the sugar islands - ‘the spoiled children of the empire’ - were economically and intellectually tied to Britain. Rodgers argues that in 1784, plans to engage in the slave trade, hatched by merchants in Limerick and Belfast, did not come to fruition. The Dublin Chamber of Commerce proudly observed that Ireland was unsullied by the ‘odious slave trade’. In 1788, the Chamber observed with satisfaction that ‘the traffic in human species does not appear to have ever been carried on from this kingdom


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    CDfm wrote: »
    Here isa link to a book review that details some involvement including mentioning a black american who spoke irish,Samuel Burke

    Why don't they teach such things in school. I had heard of Frederick Douglas (no thanks to An Roinn Oideachas), but the curiousity of Samuel Burke is new to me. Kids should be made read boards.ie in class as a more direct route to enlightenment!;)

    That book looks good - but ain't cheap - $155 on Amazon for example.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    topper75 wrote: »
    Why don't they teach such things in school. I had heard of Frederick Douglas (no thanks to An Roinn Oideachas), but the curiousity of Samuel Burke is new to me. Kids should be made read boards.ie in class as a more direct route to enlightenment!;)

    Its cool and very interesting.Its revived my interest in History. I was never told about slavery in school or that it had happened in my home town.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 mrtaylor1981


    i am not saying that what you posted is not true, but it is a misleading way of putting it. the poor were being exported from all over europe, all the articles about the poor Irish are written in a misleading manner to portray how poor and downtrodden the Irish were, when in reality they were no more poor and down trodden than any other of the poor around europe.
    As R.Dub.Fusilier says " the op was about ireland and not dutch or English poor. "
    since when is the truth misleading? have a read of the book i mentioned and judge for yourself .the op was about ireland and not dutch or English poor. i do agree that the poor of england were mistreated by the english government . the reason the article didnt mention the irish being indentured was probably because we mostly were slaves and didnt have the choice of freedom after seven years in the west indies.
    Fred Fratton above is trying to use what is called the Straw man tatic, i.e. a straw man is a fallacy in which a different topic is introduced in order to divert attention from the original issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    indented servents[slaves] were english as well as irish,sent to the colonies,people who committed crimes[like being in debt or stealing a slice of bread] would be sent to the colonies,just ask the australians,many people from both ireland and even more from england were sent out there,even up to the 20th century,but slavery is a little different,young woman were kidnapped from ireland,mainly because it was easy to get away with it, and sent to the west indies, the plantation owners wanted white woman in some of the irelands there were irish plantation owners only ,and they themselves allso took on the woman, even after it was illegal in britain it still went on in the americas


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    As R.Dub.Fusilier says " the op was about ireland and not dutch or English poor. "

    I am the OP and it wasnt limited to any nationality.

    The Zong incident occured in 1781 and it involved black slaves being thrown overboard to claim insurance.

    so you didnt specifically have irish slave trade in africans as you did out of liverpool.

    Fred Fratton above is trying to use what is called the Straw man tatic, i.e. a straw man is a fallacy in which a different topic is introduced in order to divert attention from the original issue.

    I dont know here as it happened in Britain too.

    Just say the debate over did Cromwell massacre Drogheda or did he sell the population into slavery.

    Did indiginous Irish sell other Irish into slavery.You shouldnt be afraid to think the unthinkable.

    Its not a great leap in the imagination that peopke signed up as indentured servants to make their passage to America.

    Coffin ships -were these former slavers.

    I mean the raid of baltimore had 2 ships and two captains from Dungarvan as part of the raid.

    http://www.from-ireland.net/cor/hist/baltimoreraid.htm
    On Sunday the 19th of June 1631, two boats were taken from Dungarvan, in Co. Waterford, each about 12 tons burden and went to the old head of Kinsale, Co. Cork

    John Hackett the master of the first, from Dungarvan was ordered to bring his boat into Kinsale but he refused saying that the place was too hot for them, for besides the fort there was the King's ships, and so the boats set sail for Baltimore, Co. Cork.

    John Hackett was tried at the assises in Cork, condemned and executed for his part in this affair.

    The Master of the second boat was Thomas Carew also from Dungarvan.

    These boats had been pirated and were manned with Turks and Renagadoes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    junder wrote: »
    Dublin was a slave trading center under the vikings

    Yes indeed. At one point, Viking Dublin had one of the largest slave markets in Europe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I think I have found our elusive irish slave traders- a short exceprt
    http://www.historyireland.com//volumes/volume15/issue3/features/?id=164

    The Irish and the Atlantic slave trade
    It was the Stuarts who introduced the Irish to the slave trade. Charles II returned to the throne in 1660 at a time when it was becoming clear that sugar plantations were as valuable as gold-mines. The Royal Africa Company (RAC) was established to supply slaves to the British West Indies in order to extend production. Irish names can be found among those working for the RAC. Among the most successful was William Ronan, who worked in West Africa for a decade (1687–97). A Catholic Irishman, he rose to become the chairman of the committee of merchants at Cape Castle in present-day Ghana, his career apparently unhindered by the ascent of William of Orange. In the seventeenth century Europeans saw slaving as respectable and desirable. It was conveniently accepted that Africans sold into slavery by their rulers were prisoners of war, who would otherwise have been slaughtered. Thus export to the Americas offered them prolonged life in a Christian society.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,245 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    getz wrote: »
    the plantation owners wanted white woman
    Actually no.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Victor wrote: »
    Actually no.

    on an aside - i have some distant relatives from new orleans who are black

    the story was that the guys married them as they had trades as seamstresses etc.

    you did get intermarriage and white women married black guys after the american civil war beacause they had trades and made better money than the unskilled irish,

    i am trying to find out now how the irish slave trade in irish worked


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Victor wrote: »
    Actually no.
    i was just quoting from the book,by pete mccarthy called mccarthys bar


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Read this article and then work out the numbers. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22131344-38200,00.html?from=public_rss

    this claims that 70% of convicts sent to oz were English and 24% were Irish. In the mid 19th century the population of England was about twice that of Ireland, yet three times more English people were sent to Botany bay?
    So if 70% were English and 24% were Irish, the Scots and Welsh only made up 6% of the convicts sent to Australia....... post's a load of tripe.
    Also, read the article i posted earlier, it talks about white slave/indentured servents coming from the Netherlands and England, no mention of the Irish.

    i am not saying that what you posted is not true, but it is a misleading way of putting it. the poor were being exported from all over europe, all the articles about the poor Irish are written in a misleading manner to portray how poor and downtrodden the Irish were, when in reality they were no more poor and down trodden than any other of the poor around europe.

    Yes we are quite well aware that the Irish were not the only downtrodden people in Europe. It's been more than pointed out in the discussions on other forums regarding the wearing of the poppy that Irishmen were invovled in some of the worst aspects of the british empire, albeit that most of them probably were economic conscripts. But like any society we have had our fair share of degenerates, hence we do not see why people should honour those who carried out sich deeds by wearing the poppy - which commerates ALL those who served in britain's forces and carried out such various dispicable acts such as slavery etc


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    CDfm wrote: »

    Did indiginous Irish sell other Irish into slavery.You shouldnt be afraid to think the unthinkable.

    I mean the raid of baltimore had 2 ships and two captains from Dungarvan as part of the raid.

    http://www.from-ireland.net/cor/hist/baltimoreraid.htm

    I would say that some people from Ireland did indeed sell Irish people into slavery. Every society has it's share of criminals and collaborators, if you read Schlinders List you'll see how incrediably some of the guards of the Jewish Warsaw ghetto were actually Jewish -all under Nazi supervision of course. Likewise some Indians in America helped the white man in the destruction of their own people, it's not limited to any society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    McArmalite wrote: »
    I would say that some people from Ireland did indeed sell Irish people into slavery. Every society has it's share of collaborators, if you read Schlinders List you'll see how incrediably some of the guards of the Jewish Warsaw ghetto were actually Jewish -all under Nazi supervision of course. Likewise some Indians in America helped the white man in the destruction of their own people, it's not limited to any society.


    But - slavery and slave raids were part of world politic, just look at this link at muslims capturing a vessel that left Youghal and taking 150 passengers into slavery



    http://books.google.ie/books?id=5q9zcB3JS40C&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=slaves+captured+in+youghal+ireland&source=bl&ots=j6ylJKtERj&sig=h79BF8_eC9LN6INz3qbZUNjGexU&hl=en&ei=S3MaS46EH8PRjAev_PmFBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=slaves%20captured%20in%20youghal%20ireland&f=false

    And you did have serfs all over Europe and not everyone was a freeman

    Lots of indentured servants sold themselves in exchange for passage to avoid worse coinditions at home. Like they didnt travel for free.

    I read Sam Goldwyns biography about how he walked across Europe to get to America, hard social conditions were not exclusively Irish.So right Ireland was a hole and conditions awful but so wre conditions elsewhere.

    http://www.irelandoldnews.com/History/runaways.htm

    I would love to know who the owners of the vessels were that funded these indentured servitude relocations. Were any Irish?

    A serf was essentially a slave and they were all over Europe and its abolition occured slowly, i found this table on Wikipedia on its abolition.
    Dates of emancipation from serfdom in various countries
    Scotland: neyfs (serfs) disappeared by late 14th century,[16] but heritable jurisdictions survived until 1747.[17]
    England: obsolete by 15th-16th century,[18]
    Wallachia: Never widely practiced. Officially ended in 1746 (land reforms in 1864)
    Moldavia: Never widely practiuced. Officially ended in 1749 (land reforms in 1864)
    Savoy: 19 December 1771
    Austria: 1 November 1781 (first step; second step: 1848)
    Bohemia: 1 November 1781 (first step; second step: 1848)
    Baden: 23 July 1783
    Denmark: 20 June 1788
    Helvetic Republic: 4 May 1798
    Serbia: 1804 (de facto, de jure in 1830)
    Schleswig-Holstein: 19 December 1804
    Swedish Pomerania: 4 July 1806
    Duchy of Warsaw (Poland): 22 July 1807
    Prussia: 9 October 1807 (effectively 1811-1823)
    Mecklenburg: October 1807 (effectively 1820)
    Bavaria: 31 August 1808
    Nassau: 1 September 1812
    Governorate of Estonia: 23 March 1816
    Governorate of Courland: 25 August 1817
    Württemberg: 18 November 1817
    Governorate of Livonia: 26 March 1819
    Hanover: 1831
    Saxony: 17 March 1832
    Hungary: 11 April 1848 (first time), 2 March 1853 (second time)
    Croatia: 8 May 1848
    Austrian Empire: 7 September 1848[19]
    Bulgaria: 1858 (de jure by Ottoman Empire; de facto in 1880)
    Russian Empire: 19 February 1861 (see Emancipation reform of 1861)
    Tonga: 1862
    Congress Poland: 1864[20]
    Georgia: 1864-1871
    Kalmykia: 1892
    Bosnia and Herzegovina: 1918
    Afghanistan: 1923
    Bhutan: officially abolished by 1959[11]
    Tibet: possibly 1959 but use of "serf" for Tibet is controversial[7][8][9][10]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Serfs in Gaelic Tradition
    clientship (céilsine) in early Irish law was the relationship between a lord (flaith) and a client (céile). It took two principal forms, called ‘free clientship’ and ‘base clientship’ after the Irish terms sóerchéilsine and dóerchéilsine. In free clientship both the client and the lord could end the relationship at will and without penalties; base clientship did not bind the client permanently to the lord, but it did include penalties which were incurred if one party ended the relationship early against the will of the other.

    Base clientship was the more important of the two varieties. First, the status of being noble depended upon being the lord of base rather than of free clients; and, secondly, base clientship was firmly associated with, though perhaps not necessary to, the status of a free commoner. For Críth Gablach the lowest grade of noble consisted of lords of five base clients, the next grade consisted of lords of ten clients, and so on. Similarly, a normal word for the commoner, both inside and outside the legal texts, was aithech, literally ‘(food‐) render‐payer’. Base clientship was, therefore, one of the principal determinants of the shape of early Irish society. It was the subject of a tract within the 8th‐century law‐book the Senchas Már, Cáin Aicillne; most of this text is preserved intact, whereas we only have fragments of its companion tract, Cáin Sóerraith, dealing with free clientship.

    For Cáin Aicillne, base clientship normally endured for the lifetime of the lord. It was initiated by a grant or gift from the lord to the client, usually of cattle. Together with this grant came a further payment, ‘the chattels of submission’, equivalent in value to the client's honour price (see enech) and marking the personal subordination of a freeman to a lord. The lord, therefore, began the relationship by making one‐off payments to the client. The latter, by contrast, made fixed annual payments throughout the term of the relationship. The lord created a debt by the initial grant, which the client, the recipient of the grant, took a lifetime of renders to discharge. The client's fixed annual payments took the form of food renders, including both livestock products and grain. Whereas the lord's grant was normally in the form of cattle, the client's render came from both his livestock and arable farming.

    Sometimes at least a free client also received a grant from his lord and gave food renders in return. The grant, however, appears to have been much less in value than in base clientship. The renders were proportionately much more valuable, probably amounting to the entire returns from the livestock given. The point may have been that free clientship was not intended to provide the client with further economic resources; since the grant was small, the renders were absolutely of minor significance though proportionately to the grant they were valuable.

    So this is how the Irish serfs morphed into tenant farmers


    betagh, from the Irish biatach, a food‐rendering client, seen by the Anglo‐Normans as a servile tenant, synonymous with a ‘serf’. Judging from the fact that betaghs lived in communities called ‘betaghries’, it seems that Anglo‐Normans inherited them from their former Gaelic lords. In theory they were bound to do labour service on the demesnes at the will of the lord, but in practice precedent hardened into immutable manorial custom, with the result that services were limited to a few days' seasonal work. By 1300 betagh services were generally commuted to rent, which may explain why the betaghs disappear as an identifiable group in the 15th century.
    Revd Canon C. A. Empey



    So the tenant farmers evolved thru a Gaelic and Anglo Norman tradition. It wasnt an invention after the flight of the Earls or anything like that.

    Taken from www.encyclopedia .com and sourced from the Oxford Companion to Irish History.
    Pedantic moi!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭Azelfafage


    Mitocondrial DNA proves that most Icelandic women are of Irish descent.

    The men,as expected, come from Denmark and Norway.

    So they really did snatch Irish women slaves as they claimed.

    See this link:

    http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf107/sf107p02.htm

    The Westmann Islands in Iceland are named after Irish slaves captured by the Vikings:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestmannaeyjar


    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 125 ✭✭Azelfafage


    Incidentally,

    The Irish were very good at taking slaves too.

    That's how Saint Patrick got here.

    .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23 KingKiller


    CDfm wrote: »
    Serfs in Gaelic Tradition

    clientship (céilsine) in early Irish law was the relationship between a lord (flaith) and a client (céile). It took two principal forms, called ‘free clientship’ and ‘base clientship’ after the Irish terms sóerchéilsine and dóerchéilsine. In free clientship both the client and the lord could end the relationship at will and without penalties; base clientship did not bind the client permanently to the lord, but it did include penalties which were incurred if one party ended the relationship early against the will of the other.

    Base clientship was the more important of the two varieties. First, the status of being noble depended upon being the lord of base rather than of free clients; and, secondly, base clientship was firmly associated with, though perhaps not necessary to, the status of a free commoner. For Críth Gablach the lowest grade of noble consisted of lords of five base clients, the next grade consisted of lords of ten clients, and so on. Similarly, a normal word for the commoner, both inside and outside the legal texts, was aithech, literally ‘(food‐) render‐payer’. Base clientship was, therefore, one of the principal determinants of the shape of early Irish society. It was the subject of a tract within the 8th‐century law‐book the Senchas Már, Cáin Aicillne; most of this text is preserved intact, whereas we only have fragments of its companion tract, Cáin Sóerraith, dealing with free clientship.

    For Cáin Aicillne, base clientship normally endured for the lifetime of the lord. It was initiated by a grant or gift from the lord to the client, usually of cattle. Together with this grant came a further payment, ‘the chattels of submission’, equivalent in value to the client's honour price (see enech) and marking the personal subordination of a freeman to a lord. The lord, therefore, began the relationship by making one‐off payments to the client. The latter, by contrast, made fixed annual payments throughout the term of the relationship. The lord created a debt by the initial grant, which the client, the recipient of the grant, took a lifetime of renders to discharge. The client's fixed annual payments took the form of food renders, including both livestock products and grain. Whereas the lord's grant was normally in the form of cattle, the client's render came from both his livestock and arable farming.

    Sometimes at least a free client also received a grant from his lord and gave food renders in return. The grant, however, appears to have been much less in value than in base clientship. The renders were proportionately much more valuable, probably amounting to the entire returns from the livestock given. The point may have been that free clientship was not intended to provide the client with further economic resources; since the grant was small, the renders were absolutely of minor significance though proportionately to the grant they were valuable.

    So this is how the Irish serfs morphed into tenant farmers

    betagh, from the Irish biatach, a food‐rendering client, seen by the Anglo‐Normans as a servile tenant, synonymous with a ‘serf’. Judging from the fact that betaghs lived in communities called ‘betaghries’, it seems that Anglo‐Normans inherited them from their former Gaelic lords. In theory they were bound to do labour service on the demesnes at the will of the lord, but in practice precedent hardened into immutable manorial custom, with the result that services were limited to a few days' seasonal work. By 1300 betagh services were generally commuted to rent, which may explain why the betaghs disappear as an identifiable group in the 15th century.
    Revd Canon C. A. Empey


    So the tenant farmers evolved thru a Gaelic and Anglo Norman tradition. It wasnt an invention after the flight of the Earls or anything like that.

    Taken from www.encyclopedia .com and sourced from the Oxford Companion to Irish History.
    Pedantic moi!!!

    Pre Norman Ireland certainly was no Eutopia, and their certainly was slaves, but the author of the above appears to have an agenda and seems fly in the face of most accepted writings on pre Norman Irish society [FONT=&quot]( and probably Scotland, Wales and Cronwall also )[/FONT]. Here is a good source of information on what the Brehon Laws called the Non Free -

    " There being no prisons or convict settlements in Ireland, except where the natural prison afforded by a small island was available, reduction to a species of slavery, permanent or temporary, was considered a reasonable punishment of criminals guilty of capital offences but whose lives had been spared, and of other criminals who could not or would not satisfy the fines imposed upon them. Slavery in such cases differed very little from transportation or penal servitude. The taking of persons as hostages, too, for various purposes in civil matters was quite an ordinary proceeding in Ireland as in other European countries in ancient times. When any of these persons were forfeited the law entitled the holder to keep them in servitude, permanently or until they were redeemed or his claim satisfied by their labour or otherwise according to its extent. Cowards who deserted their clan in the day of trial on the field of battle, or got wounded in the back (while running away), lost their status however high or low it might have been, and virtually lost with it their freedom. "

    http://www.libraryireland.com/Brehon-Laws/Non-Free.php


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23 KingKiller


    Azelfafage wrote: »
    Incidentally,

    The Irish were very good at taking slaves too.

    That's how Saint Patrick got here.

    .
    From my quote above - " When any of these persons were forfeited the law entitled the holder to keep them in servitude, permanently or until they were redeemed or his claim satisfied by their labour or otherwise according to its extent. "

    So is this why poor old St Patrick was captured and made a slave by baddie Niall of the Nine Hostages. Allegedly released after several years to go home as baddie Niall of the Nine Hostages decided the debt or whatever was paid ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    From what I see there were two phases of mass Irish Emigration to the USA with Indntured Servitude

    Pre Famine - mostly Ulster Scots

    Post Famine - Catholic Tenants

    Now the dynamics were different.

    Initialy Indentured Servants were entitled to a settlement when they finished service - so if people went as IS what could they expect?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    McArmalite wrote: »
    So if 70% were English and 24% were Irish, the Scots and Welsh only made up 6% of the convicts sent to Australia....... post's a load of tripe.
    the article must be then, because that is what it says.

    6% Scots is probably about right actually. A lot of those deported were done so to clean up the streets. the wealthy Victorians didn't want to poor hanging around cluttering up their nice cities of London and Dublin.


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Yes we are quite well aware that the Irish were not the only downtrodden people in Europe. It's been more than pointed out in the discussions on other forums regarding the wearing of the poppy that Irishmen were invovled in some of the worst aspects of the british empire, albeit that most of them probably were economic conscripts. But like any society we have had our fair share of degenerates, hence we do not see why people should honour those who carried out sich deeds by wearing the poppy - which commerates ALL those who served in britain's forces and carried out such various dispicable acts such as slavery etc

    Nice rant. WTF is it exactly you are trying to say?

    Or is it the old "Anyone Irish who did anything worng was a traitor" line you keep coming out with?

    I should remember, nothing bad happened in the world to anyone other than the Irish.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    OK -Mc and Fred - your arguments cover the same ground.

    But what has come out of this is that you did have indentured slavery in the first wave of emigration in pre famine times and servants got a settlement - clothes ,money, tools even land at the conclusion of their period of service.

    However, what we havent discussed is during the famine and after it -how did the poor Irish travel to America and did they do so as indentured servants to raise their fares?

    Was this different to the other nationalities like Germans or Russians?

    Who profited from it?

    Dont you think if you are going to argue you should back it with facts rather than rhetoric.


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