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The Stanford case - **MOD WARNING POST 46**

  • 04-06-2016 2:28pm
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MOD

    The OP and posts from the feminism thread have been copied here. Please be aware that this is a sensitive issue so bear that in mind in the standard of your posts.

    The usual charter applies. Please read it if you're not familiar with it.

    There will be a ZERO TOLERANCE policy of "victim blaming" - any posts that imply that women bring rape on themselves will result in infractions. This is the first and final warning. Posters please report posts rather than feeding the trolls on thread.

    -sullivlo

    ---


    I need feminism because a Stanford University student was discovered on top of an unconscious woman behind a dumpster, and instead of the six years in prison the prosecution wanted after he was found guilty of three felony counts of sexual assault - he plead not guilty - the judge has decided that prison would have a 'severe impact on him' and gave him six months in County, and probation.

    He will serve only three months, with good behaviour.
    Turner was charged with assault with intent to commit rape of an intoxicated woman, sexually penetrating an intoxicated person with a foreign object and sexually penetrating an unconscious person with a foreign object, according to the Guardian. He will serve six months in county jail for the crime and will be required to register as a sex offender.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    MOD
    Potential trigger warning in the victim impact statement. A marvellous piece of writing but may bring up some memories for anyone who has been a victim of trauma.
    - sullivlo

    ---
    Here's the victim impact statement. No words.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-letter-the-stanford-victim-read-to-her-ra

    And here's the rapist's father's statement. Again, no words.

    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/06/father-stanford-university-student-brock-turner-sexual-assault-statement?CMP=share_btn_tw


  • #3
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Wow.

    I can't even describe the feelings I have after reading those.

    The fathers statement... Je. Sus. I understand that a father should love his son unconditionally, and that it is possible to separate the action from the person, but to be so callous in his words... There really are no words.

    This is more than a feminism issue. This is a moral issue. This is wrong.

    The Internet went crazy over Steven Avery and his unjust sentence. I see that there are online petitions set up for this case too. But I think it's too little, too late. The damage has already been done.

    The scary part is that it could have been me, or any one of my friends, colleagues, fellow boardsies... That makes it difficult to sleep at night.


  • #4
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    The "20 minutes of action out of his 20 years of life" comment is what disgusted me the most, as if a crime, any violent crime, can be reduced to an empirical statement like that.


  • #5
    Sapphire
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭Sapphire


    "a prison would have a severe impact on him"

    Well, duh, Judge. :rolleyes:


  • #6
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    The "20 minutes of action out of his 20 years of life" comment is what disgusted me the most, as if a crime, any violent crime, can be reduced to an empirical statement like that.
    Well you can see where son got his values.


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  • #7
    beks101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭beks101


    Dolbert wrote: »
    Here's the victim impact statement. No words.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-letter-the-stanford-victim-read-to-her-ra

    What a wonderfully articulate, intelligent and incredibly brave woman. I hope she'll recover from all of this in time.

    That was one of the most powerful pieces of writing I've ever read and I think it should be included on the curriculum for sex education in secondary schools/universities everywhere. Sadly we're so far off this kind of education though that it's laughable.

    I need feminism because the voice of this woman and every woman who has been sexually assaulted is so rare, so silenced when it comes to this kind of crime. The rhetoric surrounding a woman's "credibility" and her "part to play" in the event is so strong, and the focus on the guy's "upstanding character" and how this one woman lied about being raped in this one isolated case ten years ago and therefore any woman who finds the strength to seek justice is guilty until proven innocent...is just exhaustive and exhausting and so remarkably insulting and has created this incredibly flawed legal system where this kind of abuse is usually NOT reported and the perpetrator virtually NEVER brought to justice.
    I stood there examining my body beneath the stream of water and decided, I don’t want my body anymore.

    This really stood out for me. I've fortunately never been assaulted, and wouldn't even dare to compare my own experiences with this woman's trauma. But she's articulated a feeling I've had before, and I think perhaps many women have had. Decades of unwarranted attention or feelings of extreme unsettledness or sometimes danger; will sometimes do that. When you've dared to leave the house in a short dress or dared to walk into the wrong bar and you become public property: the subject of ogling for others' amusement.

    I'm 31 and I'm pretty bloody good at handling myself and asserting my own boundaries, but when you don't have that backbone of experience or confidence it can be the most intimidating thing in the world. At 19 and finding myself alone with someone who won't take no for an answer, or dealing with the prying eyes of men older than my dad in the early days of my career. Heavy stares or insidious groping on the tube. "I don't want this body anymore". It's nothing special or exceptional. It's just female. And that makes me a target sometimes. And that is not ok.


  • #8
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,513 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    The internet has its bad side, but I'm glad it's around to be able to read articles like that. What a piece of writing.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #9
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    The "20 minutes of action out of his 20 years of life" comment is what disgusted me the most, as if a crime, any violent crime, can be reduced to an empirical statement like that.

    It genuinely upsets me that he can equate sexual assault, of which the details made me properly wince at the thoughts, as 20 minutes of action. As if it was an intended quicky, or a discussion of whether anyone got any action the night before... So casual. I don't know how he can look his son in the eye after hearing the victim impact statement.

    I wonder what his opinion would be if the situation was reversed and his son had been raped by a potential Olympian. Would he be so quick to dismiss it as 20 minutes of action.

    As for her chilling description of the two Swedish cyclists...

    **** me. It's just beyond belief that in this day and age that something like this could happen.

    Victim blaming makes me sad.


  • #10
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    That is infuriating. And it's worrying how much that kid just does not seem to get it, even now. Nor does that seem to be an uncommon attitude towards consent.


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,007 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Katherine Witty Popgun wrote: »
    it's worrying how much that kid just does not seem to get it, even now.

    Why would he? The judge said it was no biggie. His Dad said it wasn't his fault. His female friend claims it's political correctness gone mad.

    Hell, I remember a few years age we had a discussion HERE about a rape crisis centre poster stating:
    No matter how much she’s drunk…
    No matter what she’s wearing…
    No matter if you’ve already kissed…
    … sex without consent is rape.

    If there’s any doubt about whether a woman has drunk too much to give consent, assume she hasn’t given it. Responsibility for rape will always lie with the rapist.
    And the most thanked post in the thread said something like "this kind of message tells women it's ok to cry rape after drunk sex" and "women shouldn't end up in situations where consent is an issue".

    Any time the teaching turns from "don't get raped" to "don't rape", the whole discussion gets drowned out with this kind of thing ... which is why I need feminism.


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  • #12
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Deleted User wrote: »

    Any time the teaching turns from "don't get raped" to "don't rape", the whole discussion gets drowned out with this kind of thing ... which is why I need feminism.

    I saw someone on Twitter pointing out that "don't get raped" essentially means "make sure he* rapes some other girl*", which I thought was a very good point. Trying to move the conversation and action to a more proactive place than that is not an attack on anyone.

    And all this outrage over consent classes being run. "We don't need to be taught not to rape and it's insulting to say we do, the men who are going to rape won't listen". Consent classes don't mean teaching people not to drag strangers into the bushes and violently assault them, that's what baby infants is for. Consent classes are for clearing up the difficulty that a great many people quite fcuking obviously have over issues like intoxication, entitlement and so on. These cases arise frequently enough to prove that it is a problem, and it is a problem that seems to disproportionately negatively affect women.

    **and of course men can be victims of rape and women the perpetrators, which imo is also a problem that feminism can be a very effective weapon against


  • #13
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,583 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Katherine Witty Popgun wrote: »
    **and of course men can be victims of rape and women the perpetrators, which imo is also a problem that feminism can be a very effective weapon against

    Good post but what do you mean here?

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #14
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Good post but what do you mean here?

    That there is nothing inherently emasculating about being a victim of rape by another man, that there is nothing unbelievable in a man saying that a woman raped him (i.e. questions like 'why didn't you just overpower her? Did you have an erection?' and so on are entirely beside the point), that a male victim of sexual violence or abuse needs just as much support and help as a female victim. Assumptions like these are very deeply embedded at a societal and systemic level, although things are changing; and they arise from this notion of man=active=strong and female=passive=weak which feminism challenges.


  • #15
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The judge said it was no biggie. His Dad said it wasn't his fault. His female friend claims it's political correctness gone mad.
    Christ alive. What really gets to me is another woman saying such a thing (not to mention her lack of understanding what the fairly simple concept of political correctness is, but this is an indication of how misused the term has become) - I know some might think it should not matter that she is a woman, and perhaps not, but I cannot get my head around a woman being so lacking in compassion and empathy for another woman.

    And in addition to the above "It's no big deal"/"She brought it on herself"/"He couldn't help himself" (what is this - the Magdalene laundries?!) stuff, you can be sure there is someone saying in relation to this case, "Yes, but what about the cases where men are falsely accused of rape?" as if that has to be said in response to what happened to this woman. As if there is nothing inappropriate/downright obnoxious about it. As if it cannot be discussed separately.

    Discussion of this dreadful case is not a downplaying of false rape allegations. It is discussion of an actual rape case.

    Those discussing this case are also capable of discussing false rape allegations and do not have some sort of innate lack of sympathy for men who experience false rape allegations - but it is a separate discussion.

    As for these reams upon reams of rape allegations all over the place but actual figures cannot be provided: making a false rape allegation is an horrific thing to do - I don't know anyone who would do such a life-destroying thing. What sort of person, with a father/grandfathers/brother/son/male friends, would want to do something so horrific to a man? Very few, I strongly suspect. It happens unfortunately - it does not mean actual rape deserves to be downplayed. Both are horrible - it is not a competition.

    With regard to her getting drunk - it is unwise to get blind drunk. For anyone. Not just women on a night out. Anyone in any situation. Making a decision to have sex with that blind drunk ragdoll of a person is entirely the responsibility of the person who does so, and who is well able to control themselves. The question is asked of the person as to why they were out on their own late at night drunk. Does the question get asked of the person who takes advantage of them sexually in their unconscious state as to why they were also out late at night alone and feeling compelled to rape someone?


  • #16
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,007 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Two Tone wrote: »
    I know some might think it should not matter that she is a woman, and perhaps not, but I cannot get my head around a woman being so lacking in compassion and empathy for another woman.

    "There is a special place in hell for women who don't help other women"
    Madeleine Albright


  • #17
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    There is a fascinating discussion on this subject with Dave Fanning on RTE radio one right now, if anyone is interested.


  • #18
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,513 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    beks101 wrote: »
    That was one of the most powerful pieces of writing I've ever read and I think it should be included on the curriculum for sex education in secondary schools/universities everywhere. Sadly we're so far off this kind of education though that it's laughable.

    I'm trying to dig into this now. So far, the Education Centre in Drumcondra along with SPHE teams appear to hold primary responsibility for the development of sex education materials. In a booklet for parents I found just a single reference to consent. One.
    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    There is a fascinating discussion on this subject with Dave Fanning on RTE radio one right now, if anyone is interested.

    https://soundcloud.com/rte-radio-1/the-ryan-tubridy-show-katie-koestner-on-date-rape

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #19
    Charles Fat Smokestack
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Charles Fat Smokestack


    That character letter girl is in a band and they've been blacklisted by venues who "won't support rape apologists"
    Good enough for em


  • #20
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    And the judge got death threats. There was no justice in court but do you really want one by social media mob?


  • #21
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    The Black Oil wrote: »
    I'm trying to dig into this now. So far, the Education Centre in Drumcondra along with SPHE teams appear to hold primary responsibility for the development of sex education materials. In a booklet for parents I found just a single reference to consent. One.


    I know people from the rape crisis centre who run sex ed classes for transition years, some of the questions they get asked are remarkable, even taking into account that some kids are probably taking the piss. Is it true that after a certain point a man can't stop. How long do I have to say no. How long can I be going out with someone before we have to have sex. Is it still rape if he's my boyfriend.

    This is how cases like this end up happening.


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  • #22
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,513 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Katherine Witty Popgun wrote: »
    I know people from the rape crisis centre who run sex ed classes for transition years, some of the questions they get asked are remarkable, even taking into account that some kids are probably taking the piss. Is it true that after a certain point a man can't stop. How long do I have to say no. How long can I be going out with someone before we have to have sex. Is it still rape if he's my boyfriend.

    This is how cases like this end up happening.

    The booklet for parents I referred to earlier, Busy Bodies, outlines consent on page 37, is actually geared to 5th and 6th class aged pupils re puberty. Its language is pitched at that level. Mea culpa criticising without reading it in full. This one is more suited to parents of teenagers.

    On the post-primary end, lesson 19 of this RSE teaching resource for senior cycle students highlights 6 myths about rape and 'Aishling's story'. Just seeing that the copyright is 1999...

    Perhaps I'm mistaken, though, as the SPHE resources appear to be more recent, such as those from b4udecide.ie

    On your point about questions,
    In a sexual encounter, if someone says yes, but then pushes you away, this means:
    A) They want to have sex
    B) They do not want to have sex

    In a sexual encounter, if someone says no, but you think they mean yes, this means:
    A) They want to have sex
    B) They do not want to have sex

    What is the safest way to be sure that someone has given consent to sex?
    A) To ask them directly
    B) To assume that they have given consent if they have not pushed you away

    Source

    The resources appear to be there in black and white form at least. However, last year, The Irish Times noted that sex ed in Ireland is patchy, likely in part, as the article notes "because ethos!".

    Back to the particulars of Stanford, it's now being reported that the university is at the top of the list for sexual violence investigations, with 5 cases - not including the recent story.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #23
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Just reading Turner's friend's statement in full, the clause at the end of the political-correctness sentence is...interesting
    But where do we draw the line and stop worrying about being politically correct every second of the day and see that rape on campuses isn’t always because people are rapists

    Rape happens precisely because people are rapists, and only because people are rapists. Not because of what someone was wearing, how much they had to drink, or where they were walking - because they had the misfortune to encounter a rapist. If you rape someone, you are a rapist. If you sexually assault someone, you are a sexual offender. And no matter how sorry you feel for yourself, you are not EVER the injured party in that scenario. If you're drunk and you rob someone, you're a thief. Drunk and you murder someone, you're a murderer. Why on earth would it be different for sexual crimes? Millions of people the world over manage to consume alcohol and not sexually assault anyone.


  • #24
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,513 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    The empathy deficit is strong in this one.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #25
    Scarinae
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 11,362 ✭✭✭✭Scarinae


    Katherine Witty Popgun wrote: »
    And all this outrage over consent classes being run. "We don't need to be taught not to rape and it's insulting to say we do, the men who are going to rape won't listen".
    Most of the time these responses come up even when nobody has actually said that all men are rapists or potential rapists, and it's certainly irrelevant in the Stanford case. It makes me think of this comic though:

    06a.jpg


  • #26
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I think everyone needs consent classes. Men and women. I don't know anyone who thinks it's okay to rape but I think there are people out there who don't understand what rape and sexual assault is. I have met guys, nice normal guys, who think it's funny to flash a woman. I know women who don't see a problem in grabbing a man's bum. None of these people are bad people but they really don't get how their actions could be considered offensive or threatening.

    College age is too late though, this needs to be done in primary school. We spend a lot of time teaching kids about their own bodies and what they should do if someone makes them feel uncomfortable, we don't deal with the flip side well at all. Hyper sexualised behaviour is now becoming a major issue and I fear when these kids reach adult hood we are in for a massive amount of problems with victims and perpetrators who don't have to exist if we just educate them now.


  • #27
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think everyone needs consent classes. Men and women. I don't know anyone who thinks it's okay to rape but I think there are people out there who don't understand what rape and sexual assault is.

    I agree with most of the above post except this part. This case reminded me of something that happened in my hometown 22 years ago. A girl of my age, 16 at the time was raped in similar circumstances only she wasn't so 'lucky'. Her vest was pushed into her throat so she couldn't breathe. Her body produced enough adrenaline that she was dying four or five hours. A 16 year boy from well off, well known family was charged with murder. There were rumors that his friends from some other influential families at least knew what happened but case was quickly closed. His sentence was couple of years in juvenile probation home.

    Like this case some high profile rape cases involving kids from affluent families, possibly sportsmen. These are kids whose parents didn't take enough drugs to fry the brain cells of next five generations. They are kids who are well able to distinguish between right and wrong or rape and not rape but are constantly told how special they are and how society owes them respect. The most disturbing part about father statement was the question why would 20 minutes destroy the whole life. The rapist's life won't be destroyed, this case will be yesterday's news soon and he should be able to lead some kind of normal life. But what it implies is that his life will be destroyed because he won't be able to have privileged he was expected to have. And for that no consent course will be enough (BTW they shout be part of proper sexual education in schools) but our attitude to 'special'kids will have to change so someone's bad behavior isn't forgotten because they are good sportsmen or because their parents are on school board.

    Anyway I am rambling but I just think there is more to it than a kid not knowing what consent is.


  • #28
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I agree with most of the above post except this part. This case reminded me of something that happened in my hometown 22 years ago. A girl of my age, 16 at the time was raped in similar circumstances only she wasn't so 'lucky'. Her vest was pushed into her throat so she couldn't breathe. Her body produced enough adrenaline that she was dying four or five hours. A 16 year boy from well off, well known family was charged with murder. There were rumors that his friends from some other influential families at least knew what happened but case was quickly closed. His sentence was couple of years in juvenile probation home.

    Like this case some high profile rape cases involving kids from affluent families, possibly sportsmen. These are kids whose parents didn't take enough drugs to fry the brain cells of next five generations. They are kids who are well able to distinguish between right and wrong or rape and not rape but are constantly told how special they are and how society owes them respect. The most disturbing part about father statement was the question why would 20 minutes destroy the whole life. The rapist's life won't be destroyed, this case will be yesterday's news soon and he should be able to lead some kind of normal life. But what it implies is that his life will be destroyed because he won't be able to have privileged he was expected to have. And for that no consent course will be enough (BTW they shout be part of proper sexual education in schools) but our attitude to 'special'kids will have to change so someone's bad behavior isn't forgotten because they are good sportsmen or because their parents are on school board.

    Anyway I am rambling but I just think there is more to it than a kid not knowing what consent is.

    I think in this case he knew exactly what he was doing and just didn't expect to get caught. In general though there are people who don't understand that rape can be having sex with a person under 17 or someone who is drunk because they seem to be up for it. You only have to look at the comments online when these cases hit the media.


  • #29
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,513 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Joe Biden sometimes prone to putting his foot in it, not so here. Bit torn up reading this too.
    An Open Letter to a Courageous Young Woman - Source

    I do not know your name — but your words are forever seared on my soul. Words that should be required reading for men and women of all ages.
    Words that I wish with all of my heart you never had to write.

    I am in awe of your courage for speaking out — for so clearly naming the wrongs that were done to you and so passionately asserting your equal claim to human dignity.

    And I am filled with furious anger — both that this happened to you and that our culture is still so broken that you were ever put in the position of defending your own worth.

    It must have been wrenching — to relive what he did to you all over again. But you did it anyway, in the hope that your strength might prevent this crime from happening to someone else. Your bravery is breathtaking.

    You are a warrior — with a solid steel spine.

    ~

    I do not know your name — but I see your unconquerable spirit.

    I see the limitless potential of an incredibly talented young woman — full of possibility. I see the shoulders on which our dreams for the future rest.

    I see you.

    You will never be defined by what the defendant’s father callously termed “20 minutes of action.”

    His son will be.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #30
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Evil twin, I agree. In the interview with the rape victim I mentioned earlier, she said she kept saying no but he wouldn't listen. He said "When she stopped saying no,I thought I'd changed her mind".
    Obviously there was a huge problem with his understanding of consent.

    EDIT I should mention, I'm not talking about the Stanford case, in case there is confusion.


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  • #31
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    IvyTheTerrible wrote: »
    Evil twin, I agree. In the interview with the rape victim I mentioned earlier, she said she kept saying no but he wouldn't listen. He said "When she stopped saying no,I thought I'd changed her mind".
    Obviously there was a huge problem with his understanding of consent.

    Oh my Christ. That's just... wow. No words.


  • #32
    Edward Hopper
    Closed Accounts Posts: 713 ✭✭✭Edward Hopper


    He and his family will live to regret how they've weaseled their way out of accepting his responsibility for what he's done. Maybe if he'd done that, served a "proper" sentence he could start on the road back to rehabilitating himself and trying to return to normality. He and his family have ensured he may well serve little to no time in prison but the rest of the world are aware of his actions, both before during and after the crime and shine the light on what type of human he is.

    Banned from his University, banned by USA swimming from competing in any of their sanctioned competitions, and he can't compete in their Olympic trials.

    Hopefully he'll recieve the metaphorical death by a thousand cuts. It will be well deserved.


  • #33
    Tordelback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    A lot of good sense talked in this thread. However, on the point of the father's enthusiasm for getting his son out of jail time: US prisons remain hideous places run entirely for profit where rape and violence are tacitly acknowledged as justice served. No kid is walking out after a few years as a convicted rapist with his life intact. Any father, ANY father, would want to spare their child that, no matter what their crime or what ****e they had to spout to do it.

    This doesn't mean he didn't deserve a proper sentence irrespective of failures in the prison system, of course he did, but I find it hard to fault anyone's efforts to avoid it.


  • #34
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Tordelback wrote: »
    A lot of good sense talked in this thread. However, on the point of the father's enthusiasm for getting his son out of jail time: US prisons remain hideous places run entirely for profit where rape and violence are tacitly acknowledged as justice served. No kid is walking out after a few years as a convicted rapist with his life intact. Any father, ANY father, would want to spare their child that, no matter what their crime or what ****e they had to spout to do it.

    This doesn't mean he didn't deserve a proper sentence irrespective of failures in the prison system, of course he did, but I find it hard to fault anyone's efforts to avoid it.
    I don't think people are disputing that the father shouldn't fight for his kid - any father would stand by their child.

    My issue with the whole thing is HOW he's standing up for his kid. The way that he called it 20 minutes of action. How, not once he mentioned the impact on the victim - solely saying how badly his son is suffering in all of this. Had he released a more tactful statement, such as: "I am appalled at the crime committed by my son. As a family we wholeheartedly apologise for the hurt and pain that was inflicted on the victim. However my son is just a kid, and he is showing great potential as a swimmer. We accept that he deserves punishment for his deplorable actions, however we would appeal the severity of the punishment" - perhaps there would be a more sympathetic response.


  • #35
    Tordelback
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Tordelback


    sullivlo wrote: »
    I don't think people are disputing that the father shouldn't fight for his kid - any father would stand by their child.

    My issue with the whole thing is HOW he's standing up for his kid. The way that he called it 20 minutes of action. How, not once he mentioned the impact on the victim - solely saying how badly his son is suffering in all of this. Had he released a more tactful statement, such as: "I am appalled at the crime committed by my son. As a family we wholeheartedly apologise for the hurt and pain that was inflicted on the victim. However my son is just a kid, and he is showing great potential as a swimmer. We accept that he deserves punishment for his deplorable actions, however we would appeal the severity of the punishment" - perhaps there would be a more sympathetic response.


    Yeah, very well put Sullivlo.


  • #36
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    http://huff.to/1rgDIvj

    No longer eligible to swim for swim America. No Olympics for Brock.


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  • #37
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    sullivlo wrote: »
    http://huff.to/1rgDIvj

    No longer eligible to swim for swim America. No Olympics for Brock.

    Adam Johnson was convicted couple of months ago of grooming minor, sexual activity with minor etc... Sunderland CEO resigned because the club did not dismiss him straight away after the actions of the player were known and they waited till the end of the trial. Her actions were heavily criticized and rightly so.

    Swim America needed conviction, sentencing, weeks of traditional media outrage, social media outrage , celebrity and political statements to realize his actions were not exactly compatible with their stance on sexual violence. If he would have good prospects for medals they would probably forget to make up their mind.

    Edit: just to add, I know his membership lapsed in 2014 but it would be refreshing for sporting organization to make up their mind before they are forced into it.

    And another thing, how many remember that Mike Tyson is not just a crazy guy with the tiger from Hangover but convicted rapist too? His career was not over because he raped someone but because he bit off someone's ear.


  • #38
    beks101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭beks101


    Another rape-apologist letter, this time from Brock's mum.
    In her letter to the judge, Carleen Turner insisted her son “has lived an exemplary life” and was on a path to success at Stanford, all of which she said has been “shattered” by the guilty verdicts. Carleen Turner's letter does not mention the victim.

    “He has never been in trouble, never even had a demerit in high school, he studied, swam worked hard,” the mother wrote. “His dreams have been shattered by this. No NCAA Championships. No Stanford degree, no swimming in the Olympics (and I honestly know he would have made a future team), no medical school, no becoming an Orthopedic surgeon.”

    Carleen Turner also described how the trial has “destroyed” her family.

    “I know what a broken heart feels like. It is a physical pain that starts just below the collar bone and extends to below the rib cage, it is a crushing and heavy ache that feels like I am being squeezed. This feeling has not left my body since the verdict. This verdict has destroyed us,” she wrote.

    Carleen Turner said she and her husband are a “working middle-class couple with Midwestern values” who had recently downsized their house to ease their financial burdens. Her two other children have collectively accumulated $150,000 in student loan debt, Carleen Turner said, because she and her husband were unable to pay for college tuition. Brock Turner had been awarded a 60 percent swimming scholarship by Stanford University prior to his expulsion over the sexual assault case.

    “There have been many references to Brock being from a wealthy, privileged background and he thinks he is entitled. Your honor, this could not be further from the truth,” Carleen Turner said in her statement to the judge. “We do NOT come from money, rather the opposite.”

    YEAH BUT WHAT ABOUT THE VICTIM? WHAT ABOUT THE WOMAN WHOSE WHOLE LIFE HAS BEEN TURNED UPSIDE DOWN WHEN SHE WOKE UP BROKEN IN HOSPITAL HAVING ENDURED A HORRIFIC VIOLATION AND SEXUAL ASSAULT JUST BECAUSE SHE DECIDED TO GO OUT AND HAVE A FEW DRINKS?

    Not a single mention or reference to her.

    I can understand a parent's instinct to protect, and you can be sure if I found myself in hot water my parents would go to the ends of the earth to defend my reputation and salvage what they could of my life and livelihood.

    But they would never lie or misrepresent the truth for me. They would never brush a serious crime I had committed and the victims I had hurt under the carpet for the sake of these comparatively banal and meaningless things that are so less important than the respect and dignity that we all deserve as human beings. Because I was not raised to not take responsibility for my actions. I was not raised to violate other human beings and then hide behind my academic credentials. Because that is BAD PARENTING.

    And it helps to build a fuller picture of this guy, whose parents "risked so much" to have this picture-perfect American-dream-style "successful" son - who probably thrived on knowing he would be an Olympic athlete, an Ivy League graduate, a doctor, and fcuk being an actual upstanding human being who treats others with respect, because where's the praise and the adulation for that?

    Bad bloody parenting. I hope through all the bad publicity and negative attention and no doubt years of judgement and doors slamming in their faces that lies ahead, that they learn something more fundamental about life than Olympic swimming meets and prestigious college scholarships.


  • #39
    Shelga
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭Shelga


    It is just stomach-churningly repulsive to read the parents' pathetic, selfish, narcissistic, inhumane and terrifyingly misjudged defence of their son, the felon convicted of three counts of sexual assault of an unconscious woman.

    It makes me so angry and so, so disappointed that these attitudes prevail. The only positive that can be said for their words is that each paragraph that comes out of their mouths goes further to inadvertently explain why their son is the way he is.

    Beks got it spot on with her assessment of this illusion of the 'American Dream'- who cares if your son rapes an unconscious human being with a foreign object, as long as it doesn't affect his glittering, self-obsessed path to athletic glory, academic success and wealth.

    Won't somebody please think of the rapists.


  • #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think some posts are veering into general American bashing. I've never met the kind of American who thinks the achievement of the American Dream is more important than the achievement of human decency.

    What the parents are displaying is absolute denial and they're clinging to whatever bright points in his expected future paints him in the best light, it's not necessarily indicative of a cancerous attitude prevalent in all middle-class American families; most Americans are decent and kind people, these parents are just these parents.

    On another point, while extremely prestigious, Stanford isn't an Ivy League school, it's the top Pac-12 school.


  • #41
    Jenneke87
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Jenneke87


    It's so sad. It just once again shows that despite living in the 21th century, if you're a woman and got raped it's still somehow your fault. You drank alcohol, wore something that maybe, just maybe could see seen as sexy/revealing and if your attacker is a an "upstanding member of society" you can expect a life-sentence and your rapist 6 months.

    Why is it that when a woman gets drunk, that is somehow seen as a contributing factor(maybe you shouldn't have gotten drunk) while for the man it's seen as an excuse(well, he was drunk, maybe he just didn't know that what he did at the time was commiting sexual assault.) Why is there one set of rules for her, and another for him? It's so strange: we have a society that's hellbend on sexualising women and our bodies but once a woman is a victim of rape we suddenly don't know what to do with her anymore, so will just blame her instead of her attacker...

    This is why I don't drink alcohol, this is why I don't go out.


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  • #42
    Dog Man Star
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 410 ✭✭Dog Man Star


    Jenneke87 wrote: »
    It's so sad. It just once again shows that despite living in the 21th century, if you're a woman and got raped it's still somehow your fault. You drank alcohol, wore something that maybe, just maybe could see seen as sexy/revealing and if your attacker is a an "upstanding member of society" you can expect a life-sentence and your rapist 6 months.

    Why is it that when a woman gets drunk, that is somehow seen as a contributing factor(maybe you shouldn't have gotten drunk) while for the man it's seen as an excuse(well, he was drunk, maybe he just didn't know that what he did at the time was commiting sexual assault.) Why is there one set of rules for her, and another for him? It's so strange: we have a society that's hellbend on sexualising women and our bodies but once a woman is a victim of rape we suddenly don't know what to do with her anymore, so will just blame her instead of her attacker...

    This is why I don't drink alcohol, this is why I don't go out.

    I agree with you for the most part, but a lot of women go out with tits hanging out and complain about bad attention. They hang their tits out for all to see but when dodgy fellas approach, they are offended. There's a post here about a woman in her 30s falling out of a taxi with her arse on show.

    Someone filmed it, put it up on facebook and she's raging about it.

    Seems to me if you're staggering home with your bare ass out, it is YOUR problem.


  • #43
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    Dog Man Star wrote: »
    I agree with you for the most part, but a lot of women go out with tits hanging out and complain about bad attention. They hang their tits out for all to see but when dodgy fellas approach, they are offended. There's a post here about a woman in her 30s falling out of a taxi with her arse on show.

    Someone filmed it, put it up on facebook and she's raging about it.

    Seems to me if you're staggering home with your bare ass out, it is YOUR problem.

    Mod
    Dog man star - have a read of the charter before visiting tLL again. There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to begin.


  • #44
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Dog Man Star wrote: »
    I agree with you for the most part, but a lot of women go out with tits hanging out and complain about bad attention. They hang their tits out for all to see but when dodgy fellas approach, they are offended. There's a post here about a woman in her 30s falling out of a taxi with her arse on show.

    Someone filmed it, put it up on facebook and she's raging about it.

    Seems to me if you're staggering home with your bare ass out, it is YOUR problem.
    Either way, it does not make a person responsible for being raped. Not advisable behaviour but only the rapist is responsible for rape - they are perfectly capable of controlling themselves.

    It's just so classy of the mother to say the trial has destroyed her family rather than what her son did (without which, there would have been no trial).


  • #45
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Dog Man Star wrote: »
    I agree with you for the most part, but a lot of women go out with tits hanging out and complain about bad attention. They hang their tits out for all to see but when dodgy fellas approach, they are offended. There's a post here about a woman in her 30s falling out of a taxi with her arse on show.

    Someone filmed it, put it up on facebook and she's raging about it.

    Seems to me if you're staggering home with your bare ass out, it is YOUR problem.

    She can go out in nothing but dental floss and a smile, and that's still not any kind of excuse for rape. Jesus Christ, thanks for making the rest of us look bad.


  • #46
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    MOD

    Have updated the OP to include a link to the charter. Please also note the mod warning contained below.

    The usual charter applies. Please read it if you're not familiar with it.

    There will be a ZERO TOLERANCE policy of "victim blaming" - any posts that imply that women bring rape on themselves will result in infractions. This is the first and final warning. Posters please report posts rather than feeding the trolls on thread.

    -sullivlo


  • #47
    Sapphire
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭Sapphire


    I saw a tweet that got me thinking - I cant find it now, but it was basically that the alcohol a woman consumes is usually deemed a contributory factor to her getting raped, yet consumption of alcohol is typically presented as a mitigating factor for a rapists defence of his actions.

    "Well, if she hadn't been drinking so much..."

    "Poor lad. He cant be held responsible for what he did, he was drunk."

    Depressingly we see variants of those statements all the time.


  • #48
    The Black Oil
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,513 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Sapphire wrote: »
    I saw a tweet that got me thinking - I cant find it now, but it was basically that the alcohol a woman consumes is usually deemed a contributory factor to her getting raped, yet consumption of alcohol is typically presented as a mitigating factor for a rapists defence of his actions.

    "Well, if she hadn't been drinking so much..."

    "Poor lad. He cant be held responsible for what he did, he was drunk."

    I re-read the Stanford woman's statement and she spent some time discussing the role of alcohol, summing it up better than I ever could. Perhaps this should be in every student diary/orientation pack in America.
    You said, Being drunk I just couldn’t make the best decisions and neither could she.

    Alcohol is not an excuse. Is it a factor? Yes. But alcohol was not the one who stripped me, fingered me, had my head dragging against the ground, with me almost fully naked. Having too much to drink was an amateur mistake that I admit to, but it is not criminal. Everyone in this room has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much, or knows someone close to them who has had a night where they have regretted drinking too much. Regretting drinking is not the same as regretting sexual assault. We were both drunk, the difference is I did not take off your pants and underwear, touch you inappropriately, and run away. That’s the difference.

    You said, you are in the process of establishing a program for high school and college students in which you speak about your experience to “speak out against the college campus drinking culture and the sexual promiscuity that goes along with that.”

    Campus drinking culture. That’s what we’re speaking out against? You think that’s what I’ve spent the past year fighting for? Not awareness about campus sexual assault, or rape, or learning to recognize consent. Campus drinking culture. Down with Jack Daniels. Down with Skyy Vodka. If you want talk to people about drinking go to an AA meeting. You realize, having a drinking problem is different than drinking and then forcefully trying to have sex with someone? Show men how to respect women, not how to drink less.

    Drinking culture and the sexual promiscuity that goes along with that. Goes along with that, like a side effect, like fries on the side of your order. Where does promiscuity even come into play? I don’t see headlines that read, Brock Turner, Guilty of drinking too much and the sexual promiscuity that goes along with that. Campus Sexual Assault. There’s your first powerpoint slide. Rest assured, if you fail to fix the topic of your talk, I will follow you to every school you go to and give a follow up presentation.

    Moderator: Television, Psychology and Dublin County North.

    CMod: Entertainment



  • #49
    sammyjo90
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,176 ✭✭✭✭sammyjo90


    I know its not a situation to make light of but i thought this was great

    http://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8


  • #50
    sullivlo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭sullivlo


    sammyjo90 wrote: »
    I know its not a situation to make light of but i thought this was great

    http://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8

    All I could think about watching that was Mrs Doyle :pac:

    Agree. It's great. It should be shared far and wide.


  • #51
    IvyTheTerrible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    sammyjo90 wrote: »
    I know its not a situation to make light of but i thought this was great

    http://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8
    I actually think that's a brilliant way to explain it!


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