e-scooters to become legal in Germany

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 23-08-2019 10:36pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

there seems to be a lot of this 'because you need to push it up to 5km/h before the motor kicks in, it's not a mechanically propelled vehicle' going on.
i've yet to see any reference to actual legislation or regulations which would support this claim. people seem to mix up the regulations for e-bikes with the regulations (or lack thereof) for e-scooters or boosted boards. but they're distinct in the regs, from what i know.

https://youtu.be/MnE-tp-pPJ8

This guy had the same experience I had with VRT. Has anything changed since? I don’t want to meet a gard and be dragged to court over it.

magicbastarder · 23-08-2019 10:37pm

that's a 10 minute video.
does he quote actual legislation in it? i suspect a garda would not react well to a 'but someone told me on the phone it was OK' excuse.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 23-08-2019 10:38pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

that's a 10 minute video.
does he quote actual legislation in it?

It’s a lot of fluff. Fast forward to the email interaction with the VRT.

magicbastarder · 23-08-2019 10:42pm

no offence, but i've had this experience on twitter and facebook too when i've asked this question. the reaction has always been to refer me to secondary sources, often with vague references about 'grey areas'.
no one yet has been able to cite an actual law or regulation which states a manual push start makes a blind bit of difference to how a vehicle is regulated.

the reference to power - this is almost always referring to the power ceiling allowed for e-bikes; which are by definition a different category to scooters, so should not be confused.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 23-08-2019 10:45pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

no offence, but i've had this experience on twitter and facebook too when i've asked this question. the reaction has always been to refer me to secondary sources, often with vague references about 'grey areas'.
no one yet has been able to cite an actual law or regulation which states a manual push start makes a blind bit of difference to how a vehicle is regulated.

I agree with you. The push start is neither here nor there. The issue is “mechanically propelled”... there is 100% a kw/h number that if you’re under it’s ok. But trying to find the actual legislation is impossible. I mean a bicycle is mechanically propelled, it’s got a chain and sprockets. An electric skateboard has less moving parts than a bicycle, in hub motors for example, the only visible difference between my board and a normal longboard is that it’s got a battery under it.

magicbastarder · 23-08-2019 10:51pm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

there is 100% a kw/h number that if you’re under it’s ok.

there definitely is for e-bikes. but i've yet to see any proof that the same limit applies to any other vehicles.
if you google it, all references to this would appear to show that the DOT, the minister, and AGS view any e-scooter or boosted board as an MPV requiring licence, insurance, etc.

magicbastarder · 23-08-2019 10:58pm

this is from the RSA's website:

What is the law on e-bikes, pedelecs orbattery powered scooters?Regardless of the type of bike, or whether it requires an initial push start,the rules are:If it can be powered by mechanical or electrical power alone(i.e. it can continuewithout you pedalling or scootingit) then itis considered to be a ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’(MPV).

https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/VS_Information_Notes/Two_Three_Wheeled_Vehicles/FAQs%20on%20E%20Bikes%20and%20Pedelecs%20and%20battery%20Scooters.pdf

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 23-08-2019 11:00pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

there definitely is for e-bikes. but i've yet to see any proof that the same limit applies to any other vehicles.
if you google it, all references to this would appear to show that the DOT, the minister, and AGS view any e-scooter or boosted board as an MPV requiring licence, insurance, etc.

But yet these skateboards cannot be VRTd or insured because they fall below what a “mechanically propelled vehicle” is.

So therefore a grey area.

magicbastarder · 23-08-2019 11:06pm

Fall below based on what? The law is clear that they are MPVs - there's no reference to a power threshold in the law.

prinzeugen · 26-08-2019 1:51am

Hunky Monster wrote: »

But yet these skateboards cannot be VRTd or insured because they fall below what a “mechanically propelled vehicle” is.

So therefore a grey area.

Bollox! A MPV in domestic Irish law is anything that is capable of self propulsion by mechanical means alone.

No grey area once again! Just because something cannot be taxed etc does not stop them from being a MPV.

ED E · 26-08-2019 10:14pm

Hunky Monster wrote: »

But yet these skateboards cannot be VRTd or insured because they fall below what a “mechanically propelled vehicle” is.

So therefore a grey area.

No. That's wholly wrong.

An Abrahams M1 Main Battle Tank is an MPV. I cannot tax/VRT/Ins it for Irish roads. Its still an MPV (A jet powered MPV in fact).

There are lots of MPVs that aren't road legal vehicles, do you think you should be able to drive a go-kart down the N11? Thats the argument you're making.

bk · 26-08-2019 11:33pm

I suspect "the grey area" is that there is an EU Directive which very carefully categorises what and are not road vehicles and what category they fall under.

This Directive also has a bunch of vehicles excepted from this categorisation, including the likes of wheelchairs, ebikes, etc. It is this Directive that allows an electric wheelchair and ebikes to be used on a road.

The issue, is that escooters aren't mentioned under any of the categories and don't appear to fall under any of them and in fact they seem to fall under at least one of the exceptions (the list that includes ebikes, wheelchairs, etc):

2. This Regulation does not apply to the following vehicles:
(a) vehicles with a maximum design speed not exceeding 6 km/h;
(b) vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped;
.....
(f) agricultural or forestry vehicles subject to Regulation (EU) No 167/2013....
......
(h)pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;
(i) self-balancing vehicles;
(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32013R0168

Clearly the above would indicate that an escooter with no seat is not classed per EU legislation. And yes this Directive is part of the Road Traffic Act.

Now there is a separate EU directive that sets out the maximum power and speed of escooters, so if you are greater then those, then you would face trouble if you used one of those or if you used one with a seat.

This is the "grey area" they are talking about. Some escooters (e.g. ones with seats) would fall fowl of the legislation. But not the lower powered ones with no seat.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 27-08-2019 12:18am

ED E wrote: »

No. That's wholly wrong.

An Abrahams M1 Main Battle Tank is an MPV. I cannot tax/VRT/Ins it for Irish roads. Its still an MPV (A jet powered MPV in fact).

There are lots of MPVs that aren't road legal vehicles, do you think you should be able to drive a go-kart down the N11? Thats the argument you're making.

So you're saying there's no exceptions?

You're wholly wrong.

GM228 · 27-08-2019 7:05am

bk wrote: »

I suspect "the grey area" is that there is an EU Directive which very carefully categorises what and are not road vehicles and what category they fall under.

The EU Regulation (not Directive) is in relation to vehicle type approval. Type approval and saying what is or is not a road vehicle/motor vehicle/mechanically propelled vehicle are not the same.

The European Commission and the European Parliament for example have both shown electric scooters and the likes are "motor vehicles" ("motor vehicle" at EU level is the same as a "mechanically propelled vehicle" under domestic legislation).

bk wrote: »

This Directive also has a bunch of vehicles excepted from this categorisation, including the likes of wheelchairs, ebikes, etc. It is this Directive that allows an electric wheelchair and ebikes to be used on a road.

The issue, is that escooters aren't mentioned under any of the categories and don't appear to fall under any of them and in fact they seem to fall under at least one of the exceptions (the list that includes ebikes, wheelchairs, etc):

2. This Regulation does not apply to the following vehicles:
(a) vehicles with a maximum design speed not exceeding 6 km/h;
(b) vehicles exclusively intended for use by the physically handicapped;
.....
(f) agricultural or forestry vehicles subject to Regulation (EU) No 167/2013....
......
(h)pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;
(i) self-balancing vehicles;
(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;[/b]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32013R0168

Clearly the above would indicate that an escooter with no seat is not classed per EU legislation.

All the exemptions do is exempt those vehicles from the EUs harmonised type approval regulations, they do not in any way exempt them from domestic road traffic laws or for example insurance requirements. The EU as I already mentioned above has confirmed that they are motor vehicles which require insurance.

There is a massive misconception regarding type approval and road traffic law, type approval is the guarantee that regulatory, technical and safety requirements are met and harmonised accross EU states which are adopted from the UNECE standard at EU level to ensure smooth working of free movement of goods and trade required under the TFEU.

bk wrote: »

And yes this Directive is part of the Road Traffic Act.

Type approval regulations are not part of the Road Traffic Acts.

bk wrote: »

Now there is a separate EU directive that sets out the maximum power and speed of escooters, so if you are greater then those, then you would face trouble if you used one of those or if you used one with a seat.

This is the "grey area" they are talking about. Some escooters (e.g. ones with seats) would fall fowl of the legislation. But not the lower powered ones with no seat.

It's actually within the same Regulation, there are no grey areas with regards to what constitutes a mechanically propelled vehicle other than the position taken on pedelecs which is in fact less grey when you look at the particular area of the law.

yermandan · 27-08-2019 7:08am

I used the Lime scooters in Hamburg last weekend. Very pricey but absolutely fantastic to use, whizzed around the place. They have a fantastic bike lane system over there though so I wouldn't think the experience would be as good in Ireland. Will be buying one as soon as it is legal though

GM228 · 27-08-2019 7:09am

Hunky Monster wrote: »

ED E wrote: »

No. That's wholly wrong.

An Abrahams M1 Main Battle Tank is an MPV. I cannot tax/VRT/Ins it for Irish roads. Its still an MPV (A jet powered MPV in fact).

There are lots of MPVs that aren't road legal vehicles, do you think you should be able to drive a go-kart down the N11? Thats the argument you're making.

So you're saying there's no exceptions?

You're wholly wrong.

In law there are no exceptions to the definition of mechanically propelled vehicle (save a tram or other vehicle running on permanent rails).

You could argue the position of the RSA and the Gardaí in relation to Pedelecs is an exception to the definition, but it is not when you look at the reasoning behind it where it is argued it does not fall into the definition in the first place.

cardinal tetra · 02-09-2019 11:46pm

GM228 wrote: »

In law there are no exceptions to the definition of mechanically propelled vehicle (save a tram or other vehicle running on permanent rails).

You could argue the position of the RSA and the Gardaí in relation to Pedelecs is an exception to the definition, but it is not when you look at the reasoning behind it where it is argued it does not fall into the definition in the first place.

It's a child's scooter for grown ups for God's sake.
People need a bit of cop on because this is getting stupid now.

Next thing you know, lads will be going home because they are on their periods because they can "feel" them. And it will be this sort of absolute nonsense about a lad not being able to ride a skateboard with a handle that is the type of absolute overkill that will bring about such a pony society.
Please, if not for society, then just for my own sanity, go away and think about the waste of time, effort and stupidity it takes for someone to try and tax, monitor, arrest or caution a grown up on a child's play toy.

TheChizler · 02-09-2019 11:56pm

cardinal tetra wrote: »

Please, if not for society, then just for my own sanity, go away and think about the waste of time, effort and stupidity it takes for someone to try and tax, monitor, arrest or caution a grown up on a child's play toy.

I guess you'd consider this appropriate for the school run? Same argument.

cardinal tetra · 03-09-2019 12:01am

TheChizler wrote: »

I guess you'd consider this appropriate for the school run? Same argument.

I'd rather that then the dog box on the back of a bicycle that you see some weirdos bringing their kids to school in.

It's a scooter. Not a Honda 50 but a little skateboard with a handle. If you can afford to shell out 500 euro for one, then you have enough sense to know how to use one the same way 6 year olds to on their way to school.

Of all the things to get your hoop in a twist about, e scooters are not one of them.
I mean come on! Just look at them!

beauf · 03-09-2019 12:28am

None of that makes any sense. Some of these scooters can do 40km/h + at a flick of a button. There was one ahead of me in traffic this evening easily doing 20-30 on the pavement. One of the bigger ones with heavy duty suspension front and rear, balloon tyres etc. Much bigger than the usual 365 that you see. He was going same speed as the cars on the road.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2019 8:01am

cardinal tetra wrote: »

Next thing you know, lads will be going home because they are on their periods because they can "feel" them.

Well, that went a bit weird.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2019 8:41am

cardinal tetra wrote: »

If you can afford to shell out 500 euro for one, then you have enough sense to know how to use one

this is the exact same unofficial entry barrier which means only sensible people buy cars too. in fact, the more expensive the car, the more sensible the driver.

Mr.Frame · 03-09-2019 8:00pm

Glad to hear the Minister for Transport say today, that e scooters are illegal.
I wish more Gardai would uphold the law and confiscate more of them.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2019 8:08pm

Ross telling retailers to inform e-scooter buyers of law is ‘nanny state gone mad’
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ross-telling-retailers-to-inform-e-scooter-buyers-of-law-is-nanny-state-gone-mad-1.4006371

while i have sympathy with the retail association's reaction, some retailers have been downright lying to customers about the legalities of them.

thenightman · 04-09-2019 12:12am

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Glad to hear the Minister for Transport say today, that e scooters are illegal.
I wish more Gardai would uphold the law and confiscate more of them.

Why? do you want more traffic on the roads? do you want a bus to pass you by full or to stand for an entire luas/dart journey? less escooters means more people just using the above modes. The amount of time/money being wasted hmming and hawwing over legalising these yokes is ridiculous. Limit them to 30kph, no riding on pavements/motorways and let people have at it for feck sake.

Amazing Gardai finding time to seize these, but can't be arsed doing things to improve quality of life for commuters like enforcing cars encroaching into bus lanes, blocking luas junctions, driving through the college green bus gate or the taxis parking up wherever they like etc.

Dravokivich · 04-09-2019 12:37pm

Well those scooters shouldn't be about anyway. So why wouldnt they gardai be involved in policing that issue along with the others?

There's only so much they can do at anyone time. We cant just have them sitting on one narrow set of objectives at a time.

Thelonious Monk · 04-09-2019 2:27pm

thenightman wrote: »

Why? do you want more traffic on the roads? do you want a bus to pass you by full or to stand for an entire luas/dart journey? less escooters means more people just using the above modes. The amount of time/money being wasted hmming and hawwing over legalising these yokes is ridiculous. Limit them to 30kph, no riding on pavements/motorways and let people have at it for feck sake.

Amazing Gardai finding time to seize these, but can't be arsed doing things to improve quality of life for commuters like enforcing cars encroaching into bus lanes, blocking luas junctions, driving through the college green bus gate or the taxis parking up wherever they like etc.

It's the same bunch of narrow minded idiots that oppose everything.

Cycle to work - no
eScooters - scurge of the cities
more pedestrianised streets - no

They just hate anything different and want to sit in their cars in traffic no matter how bad the traffic is. Leave them to it, it's only going to get worse as car is king in this country and it's not going to change any time soon.

Mr.Frame · 04-09-2019 3:08pm

thenightman wrote: »

Why? do you want more traffic on the roads? do you want a bus to pass you by full or to stand for an entire luas/dart journey? less escooters means more people just using the above modes. The amount of time/money being wasted hmming and hawwing over legalising these yokes is ridiculous. Limit them to 30kph, no riding on pavements/motorways and let people have at it for feck sake.

Amazing Gardai finding time to seize these, but can't be arsed doing things to improve quality of life for commuters like enforcing cars encroaching into bus lanes, blocking luas junctions, driving through the college green bus gate or the taxis parking up wherever they like etc.

They are dangerous.Only this morning an idiot came out of a side road in front of me , he failed to look or take notice. Then he proceeded to go up to the traffic lights,which were red. He waited a minute ,then went through the lights, in front of another car on the main road.
He is not the first idiot I have seen on e scooters, who have no regard for themselves or others.
Keep the ban in place I say and enforce it.

TheChizler · 04-09-2019 3:12pm

Mr.Frame wrote: »

They are dangerous
....
He is not the first idiot I have seen on e scooters, who have no regard for themselves or others.
Keep the ban in place I say and enforce it.

Someone acting dangerously (only to himself here I might add) doesn't make the mode of transport dangerous. On the way home from work I regularly see drivers overtake a stopped bus across a continuous white line and into oncoming traffic that's being directed into that lane for the lights. Should we ban all cars for the same reason?

What is inherently dangerous about an escooter? If they didn't have brakes or had spikes sticking out I'd agree with you.

Thelonious Monk · 04-09-2019 3:14pm

Mr.Frame wrote: »

They are dangerous.Only this morning an idiot came out of a side road in front of me , he failed to look or take notice. Then he proceeded to go up to the traffic lights,which were red. He waited a minute ,then went through the lights, in front of another car on the main road.
He is not the first idiot I have seen on e scooters, who have no regard for themselves or others.
Keep the ban in place I say and enforce it.

Everyone is an idiot on all kinds of vehicle as well as pedestrians. I don't see why people can't understand that. It's down to damage limitation though, so really we should be restricting cars to 20km/h in towns and cities, although most of the deaths happen in rural Ireland with people speeding.
The whole deaths and carnage caused by cars doesn't seem to bother people though, why is that?

thenightman · 04-09-2019 8:23pm

Mr.Frame wrote: »

They are dangerous.Only this morning an idiot came out of a side road in front of me , he failed to look or take notice. Then he proceeded to go up to the traffic lights,which were red. He waited a minute ,then went through the lights, in front of another car on the main road.
He is not the first idiot I have seen on e scooters, who have no regard for themselves or others.
Keep the ban in place I say and enforce it.

A car broke a pedestrian green light at the junction of Infirmary Road & Parkgate Street this morning as I was crossing. Therefore all cars are dangerous and should be banned.

Do you see how idiotic your theory sounds now?

thenightman · 04-09-2019 8:30pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Well those scooters shouldn't be about anyway. So why wouldnt they gardai be involved in policing that issue along with the others?

There's only so much they can do at anyone time. We cant just have them sitting on one narrow set of objectives at a time.

I've commuted into the city for 15+ years and I can count on one hand the times I've seen Gardai enforcing bus lanes in the city centre, I've never seen them pull taxis for driving like dicks and I've never seen them ticketing their colleagues private vehicles that are double and triple parked and parked on the pavement in and around Pearse Street Garda Station.

However, I've seen motorbike Gardai pull an unusually high amount of escooter riders over the last few months. Surely nothing to do with the fact that escooter riders are generally compliant when stopped, have money to pay fines and are a handy target for our lazy Gardai.

I would have thought having Traffic Gardai is a narrow enough objective, and they would be focused on improving traffic flow into the city, not stopping people for using a scooter that is having 0 negative impact on traffic.

magicbastarder · 15-10-2019 8:23am

this article in the indo claims that FF have tabled a bill which would regulate e-scooters but would impose a limit of 25km/h and levy a fine of €1,000 for speeding - however, i've seen a comment (on twitter) that the journalist has this arseways and that the €1,000 fine would specifically be for illegally chipping the scooter to be able to exceed this limit.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escooter-users-facing-2500-fine-for-speeding-38595458.html

beauf · 15-10-2019 8:42am

I'm sure the Garda are already busy faking stats in pulse in preparation.

Thelonious Monk · 15-10-2019 9:56am

So 1000 for speeding on an escooter but only 80 in a range rover. Wtf?

magicbastarder · 15-10-2019 9:57am

no, as per my post, €1,000 for illegally chipping it, not for speeding.

BeerNut · 15-10-2019 10:15am

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, as per my post, €1,000 for illegally chipping it, not for speeding.

No, per section 4 of the bill, a €1000 fine for speeding. Section 3 is the one about chipping.

magicbastarder · 15-10-2019 10:25am

that says a 'class D fine':

What is a class A fine?

Section 3 Fines Act 2010 defines the various classes of fine as follows:

“class A fine” means a fine not exceeding €5,000;

“class B fine” means a fine not exceeding €4,000;

“class C fine” means a fine not exceeding €2,500;

“class D fine” means a fine not exceeding €1,000;

“class E fine” means a fine not exceeding €500;

Therefore any time you see a criminal offence carrying a penalty on conviction ranging from class A to class E fine you will see from the above what the maximum fine can be.

Generally, it is a rare occasion when a Judge will impose the maximum fine.

https://businessandlegal.ie/court-fines-in-irish-law-what-you-should-know

so not an automatic €1000, anyway.

i wonder why they've not suggested a specific fixed fine?

ED E · 16-10-2019 12:12pm

Fixed charges get their own instrument referencing offences in the act as I understand it.

Mr.Frame · 17-10-2019 11:01am

E scooters being regulated wont work at all .

rick shaws are running around flouting the law and they are suppose to be coming under some sort of regulation, that wont work either.

The problem is , there anrnt the Gardai around to enforce regulations of any kind.

Taxi are regulated and yet we all know there are 100s of illegal taxis working the streets, without fear of being caught .

Ban rick shaws and ban e scooters is the only way

magicbastarder · 17-10-2019 11:05am

uh, going by that logic - if rickshaws should be banned because they're not policed, taxis should also be banned because they're clearly not properly policed.

Mr.Frame · 17-10-2019 11:10am

magicbastarder wrote: »

uh, going by that logic - if rickshaws should be banned because they're not policed, taxis should also be banned because they're clearly not properly policed.

Rick shaws are unregulated and as anyone who lives /works in Dublin are damn dangerous and the drivers of these couldnt care less for anyone around them , be they cars or people on footpaths.

Taxis on the other hand are regulated BUT there are many illegal ones. The problem is (which you obviously missed)is that there arnt enough enforcers to ensure illegals are taken off the road

marcos_94 · 17-10-2019 11:12am

Mr.Frame wrote: »

E scooters being regulated wont work at all .

rick shaws are running around flouting the law and they are suppose to be coming under some sort of regulation, that wont work either.

The problem is , there anrnt the Gardai around to enforce regulations of any kind.

Taxi are regulated and yet we all know there are 100s of illegal taxis working the streets, without fear of being caught .

Ban rick shaws and ban e scooters is the only way

What about bikes as well then? A large share of cyclists dont have lights which are a legal requirement.

TheChizler · 17-10-2019 11:14am

Mr.Frame wrote: »

Rick shaws are unregulated and as anyone who lives /works in Dublin are damn dangerous and the drivers of these couldnt care less for anyone around them , be they cars or people on footpaths.

Taxis on the other hand are regulated BUT there are many illegal ones. The problem is (which you obviously missed)is that there arnt enough enforcers to ensure illegals are taken off the road

According to your previous post rickshaws are about to come under regulation anyway, so you're kinda undermining your own argument there.

Sure why don't we ban all vehicles while we're at it as enforcement is lacking.

Mr.Frame · 17-10-2019 11:26am

TheChizler wrote: »

According to your previous post rickshaws are about to come under regulation anyway, so you're kinda undermining your own argument there.

Sure why don't we ban all vehicles while we're at it as enforcement is lacking.

Not undermining it at all , "IF" rick shaws are regulated it will be farcical and completely pointless for reasons I gave.
They cannot be policed.

beauf · 17-10-2019 11:59am

Mr.Frame wrote: »

... The problem is (which you obviously missed)is that there arnt enough enforcers to ensure illegals are taken off the road

Sorry the reason there is no enforcement on a wide range of issues is not simply resources. It's a factor sure. But they are ignoring lots of things right under their nose where they obviously do have resources.

There organisation seems broken from the top down.

e-scooters to become legal in Germany

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