e-scooters to become legal in Germany

rivegauche

https://www.autozeitung.de/plev-e-scooter-legal-194626.html
warning: german website.


Personal light electric vehicles will be legislated for.
This will allow them to travel the streets like bikes do now.

They might be obliged to carry a reg. number like mopeds with 50 euro insurance or maybe just like a bike with no insurance or reg. number.

They will certainly remove one reason for owning a car in urban Germany where the public spaces are already bike friendly.

magicbastarder

from that article:

Presumably, the e-vehicles are equated with bicycles and their maximum speed is limited to 20 km / h. Helmet will probably not exist.

rivegauche

Eine Helmpflicht wird es wahrscheinlich nicht geben
translates as roughly:
An obligation to wear a helmet will probably not be mandated.

ThomasJ85

Germany are ahead of the times really! We need to start pushing the government to change things. An absolute embarrassment of a country we are!

munchkin_utd

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Germany are ahead of the times really! We need to start pushing the government to change things. An absolute embarrassment of a country we are!

chill, its still not legal in Germany and looks like the middle of the year before it'll come through.

https://www.wired.de/article/e-roller-erst-ab-2019-legal-in-deutschland

ThomasJ85

Yes, but I believe in France it is legal. Just saying, if Germany are making them legal, we need to follow their path. People deserve an alternative to a car or motorbike.

dashcamdanny

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Yes, but I believe in France it is legal. Just saying, if Germany are making them legal, we need to follow their path. People deserve an alternative to a car or motorbike.

As long as they have CBT and insurance. I would be ok with it.

These scooter riders seem to ride with blinkers on , no awareness of the dangers around them, and ride all over the road.

Its only a matter of time before the inevitable happens.

Del.Monte

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Yes, but I believe in France it is legal. Just saying, if Germany are making them legal, we need to follow their path. People deserve an alternative to a car or motorbike.

You mean like bicycles, buses, trains, trams and, God forbid, shank's mare - however did we manage before.

ThomasJ85

I want to use an e scooter with airless tires. I think having electric assist bikes are still limited for going up hill. The fact is, self accelerating small vehicles can have speed limits set on them. No reason they can't be regulated and used on the road like normal bikes. We should have the right to use! Stupid lazy legislation is what caused this. They should be an option for us, like they are in other countries.

ThomasJ85

Del.Monte wrote: »

You mean like bicycles, buses, trains, trams and, God forbid, shank's mare - however did we manage before.

Yes but not every City has them. E scooters are a viable alternative to bikes.

loyatemu

dashcamdanny wrote: »

As long as they have CBT and insurance. I would be ok with it.

These scooter riders seem to ride with blinkers on , no awareness of the dangers around them, and ride all over the road.

Its only a matter of time before the inevitable happens.

CBT?

they're no more dangerous than bikes. Yes, the inevitable will happen, it happens to cyclists and pedestrians every year, nobody (sane) suggests they should have insurance.

TheQuietFella

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Germany are ahead of the times really! We need to start pushing the government to change things. An absolute embarrassment of a country we are!

Say the same to the fools who drive around with only fog lights on!

Cookie_Monster

they're on trial in several cities over here but govt and police are encouraging people to use the footpath rather than the road, I really don't get that...

ThomasJ85

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they're on trial in several cities over here but govt and police are encouraging people to use the footpath rather than the road, I really don't get that...

Over here you can't use them on the footpath or road. You can use bikes on both aswell.

Ireland will choose to copy the legislation that turns out to be the most expensive for the consumer and that produces some tax revenue to be frittered away with usual lack of accountability -> road tax and insurance no doubt.

pretty much a given unfortunately.

would be pleasantly shocked with any other outcome

magicbastarder

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

they're on trial in several cities over here but govt and police are encouraging people to use the footpath rather than the road, I really don't get that...

where's 'here'?

when these started popping up (in the last few months for those of us who don't pass through the centre of the city itself), it caused a few double takes for me - i'd be cycling down griffith avenue in the dark and would see what appeared to be a stationary pedestrian up ahead, and start to subconsciously plan moving out, only to realise several seconds later they're still roughly the same distance from me. grand in that context, in that the scooter was moving the same direction as me, but i'd be concerned that if it was one converging on a motor vehicle, a motorist seeing what appeared to be someone standing still would assume that very thing, when it's actually a scooter moving at 20km/h+

granturismo

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Over here you can't use them on the footpath or road. You can use bikes on both aswell.

No, bicycles are not supposed to be ridden on footpaths.

ThomasJ85

glasso wrote: »

Ireland will choose to copy the legislation that turns out to be the most expensive for the consumer and that produces some tax revenue to be frittered away with usual lack of accountability -> road tax and insurance no doubt.

pretty much a given unfortunately.

would be pleasantly shocked with any other outcome

Well e-bikes have been legalised. You don't have to get them insured. The situation with the e scooter is just lazy legislation which has led to the loophole. I think its cause people were installing lawnmower motors on bikes to allow them self accelerate. This was obviously dangerous at the time.

magicbastarder

i don't think you can blame 'lazy legislation' to be fair - e-bikes are catered for in legislation because you still have to pedal them, they are pedal cycles albeit with power assist. scooters are vehicles controlled by a throttle, so at a basic level are no different to a moped. what separates them from mopeds is a quantitative rather than a qualitative measurement.

Cookie_Monster

magicbastarder wrote: »

where's 'here'?

New Zealand

Edit: seems the location tag on a users post has been removed

ThomasJ85

granturismo wrote: »

No, bicycles are not supposed to be ridden on footpaths.

They can ridden on walkways and parks. Like the Mahon walkway is Cork has a lot of cyclists. I don't like using footpaths for cycling anyway.

granturismo

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

They can ridden on walkways and parks. Like the Mahon walkway is Cork has a lot of cyclists. I don't like using footpaths for cycling anyway.

Your original post referred to cycling on 'footpaths' not shared ways or marked cycle paths.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/cycling_offences.html
Article 13 of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997) makes it an offence to cycle on a footpath unless you are entering or exiting a property

ThomasJ85

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't think you can blame 'lazy legislation' to be fair - e-bikes are catered for in legislation because you still have to pedal them, they are pedal cycles albeit with power assist. scooters are vehicles controlled by a throttle, so at a basic level are no different to a moped. what separates them from mopeds is a quantitative rather than a qualitative measurement.

What exactly do you mean by 'quantitative rather than a qualitative measurement' ?. Do you mean in speed or size? I think speed and size of the vehicle should be relevent. Not wether or not they can be self motorised. They are also tiny and weigh less in comparison to e e bikes, regular motorbikes, cars. They are the size of my leg and their wheels are the size of my fists!

I heard the current legislation is due to people installing lawnmower motors on to regular bikes, a couple of years ago, to allow for self acceleration. Obviously this is stupid and dangerous so they need legislation on that.

e scooters have limits. They can't go faster than 25 klm an hour, similar to an e bike speed, although in theory you can go faster on e bikes, just the electric assist wont help you after 25 klm. Some have breaks similar to a bicycle break, like the Xiaomi M365 which also needs to be moving at 5 klm of speed before the motor kicks in.

Do you not think there needs to more specific legislation on them atleast?

ThomasJ85

granturismo wrote: »

Your original post referred to cycling on 'footpaths' not shared ways or marked cycle paths.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/cycling_offences.html
Article 13 of the Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997) makes it an offence to cycle on a footpath unless you are entering or exiting a property

Yeah well the footpath is a grey area haha!

_Brian

Escooters with motors, batteries and riders are heavier than regular bikes, one hitting you at 25 kph will do substantial damage.

License, and insurance is a reasonable expectation, tax I wouldn’t bother with to incentivise their use over cars.

granturismo

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Yeah well the footpath is a grey area haha!

No, its not. The law is clear on the matter of footpaths.

ThomasJ85

_Brian wrote: »

Escooters with motors, batteries and riders are heavier than regular bikes, one hitting you at 25 kph will do substantial damage.

License, and insurance is a reasonable expectation, tax I wouldn’t bother with to incentivise their use over cars.

E bikes are allowed but they weigh way more. Regular bikes are not relevant.

Carrera Crosscity weighs at 18.0kg - a small foldable e bike!
Xiaomi m365 weighs at 12.5kg - Considered to be a heavy e scooter!

https://www.piccadillycycles.com/blog-entries/2015/3/12/does-e-bike-weight-matter
https://www.halfords.ie/cycling/bikes/electric-bikes/carrera-crosscity-electric-bike
https://www.banggood.com/Xiaomi-M365-IP54-12_5kg-Ultra-light-30km-Long-Life-Folding-Electric-Scooter-Intelligent-BMS-25-kmh-Max_-Load-100kg-Skateboard-Hoverboard-Balancing-Scooter-p-1112746.html?ID=233&cur_warehouse=CN[url][/url]

dashcamdanny

What is the law here in Ireland?

As they are completely mechanically propelled they must be classed as a moped surly.


And tax, insurance, CBT, proper legal lights, helmet required number plate required.


Is this not the case?

sharper

dashcamdanny wrote: »

What is the law here in Ireland?

As far as I know it's fairly strict and comes from an EU directive.

e-bikes can be used without registration/tax/insurance so long as they're limited 25km/h, a motor of 250w and lack a throttle i.e. they only provide assist to the rider pealing and don't propel themselves. An e-bike that goes over any of those limits brings you into the realm of being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#Europe

Realistically someone is probably not going to interact with the law on this until they're involved in an accident, then they're going to be on the hook for hitting someone with a vehicle.

dashcamdanny

After a bit of googling, it seems they are illegal here, regardless of speed.

An Garda Siochana says it considers electric scooters as mechanically propelled vehicles under road traffic law, meaning you must have a licence, tax and insurance to ride one on the road.

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2018/1114/1010894-new-bill-seeks-to-clarify-legality-of-electric-scooters-on-roads/

GM228

A few threads were I detailed about e-bikes and the relevant law. (The 250w limit mentioned 2 posts back changed several years ago).

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104204620&postcount=364

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104204920&postcount=368

This thread in particular:-

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057697731&page=1

dashcamdanny

So . It seems they are completely illegal.

Any reports of Garda seizing they yet? I have not heard of any.

GM228

dashcamdanny wrote: »

So . It seems they are completely illegal.

Any reports of Garda seizing they yet? I have not heard of any.

There have been several over the years which have appeared in the Garda Twitter thread.

Here's one:

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/890477022245519361?s=19

loyatemu

_Brian wrote: »

Escooters with motors, batteries and riders are heavier than regular bikes, one hitting you at 25 kph will do substantial damage.

License, and insurance is a reasonable expectation, tax I wouldn’t bother with to incentivise their use over cars.

they're not heavier than regular bikes, in fact they're probably lighter than most cheapo bikes and considerably lighter than eBikes. As with a bike most of the weight is going to be comprised of the person on it.

They're not dangerous, license and insurance is total overkill.

Dj Stiggie

I live in Copenhagen where they're completely legal and treated the same as bikes. There's also a private company that rents them out through an app so they're littered all over the city, then you go up to one and unlock it with your phone. This means that people have no regard for where they leave them, often they're abandoned in the middle of a footpath, and riders frequently drift from the amazing cycle lanes to the footpath then back again. It's like the South Park episode really

bk

GM228 wrote: »

There have been several over the years which have appeared in the Garda Twitter thread.

Here's one:

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/890477022245519361?s=19

I don't remember ever seeing any of the normal standup, push to start, e-scooters being seized.

They all seem to be the ones with petrol engines or big powerful ones with a seat, etc. like in this tweet. Almost regular scooters

I'd suspect those ones would all been banned anyway if legislation was introduced definitely legalising the stand-up push to start ones.

Also I have to say given the absolute bollocking that the above tweeted received and how unpopular it seems to be, I'd suggest that the Gardai are very much out of step with popular public opinion.

I'd also suggest that they maybe looking the other way on the stand-up ones, given that I'm seeing them multiple times a day now, every day, often riding right past Gardai who seem to busily ignore them.

ThomasJ85

ThomasJ85 wrote: »

Germany are ahead of the times really! We need to start pushing the government to change things. An absolute embarrassment of a country we are!

Have you cycled German Cycle lanes ? if not it's worth taking a holiday just for that. A lot of people go to cycle those fabulous cycle lanes.

Ever time I go over I have to be constantly reminded that I don't have to "keep to the right" because I'm not on a road, I just fear a car coming at 80 Km/h around a bend all the time , I just can't get my head around it.

It's a beautifully clean country, it's a pleasure cycling in the country over there and you will not find as much as a coke bottle in the ditches compared to bags of rubbish littering the Irish countryside which is a complete embarrassment every time the outlaws come over.

Every year I go to Baden-Württemberg to a place called Michelbach an der Bilz and first thing I do rain or shine is take to the cycle lanes .

Cycle lanes through farm land , yes you heard that right, "farm land" and through the woods and from Village to Village , Town to Town, it's cycling Heaven.

A lot of fabulous things about Germany except Stuttgart Airport which is a disaster trying to get through security !

prinzeugen

bk wrote: »

I don't remember ever seeing any of the normal standup, push to start, e-scooters being seized.

They all seem to be the ones with petrol engines or big powerful ones with a seat, etc. like in this tweet. Almost regular scooters

I'd suspect those ones would all been banned anyway if legislation was introduced definitely legalising the stand-up push to start ones.

Also I have to say given the absolute bollocking that the above tweeted received and how unpopular it seems to be, I'd suggest that the Gardai are very much out of step with popular public opinion.

I'd also suggest that they maybe looking the other way on the stand-up ones, given that I'm seeing them multiple times a day now, every day, often riding right past Gardai who seem to busily ignore them.

There was discussion on another forum about the legally of these things.

If its capable of moving you without physical effort its a MPV and you need a M licence minimum. If its ok for someone with no driving licence to ride one of these, then I should not need a licence for a similar, petrol powered scooter.

I would also be scared of having one of these things in my house. They tend to catch fire..

bk

prinzeugen wrote: »

There was discussion on another forum about the legally of these things.

If its capable of moving you without physical effort its a MPV and you need a M licence minimum. If its ok for someone with no driving licence to ride one of these, then I should not need a licence for a similar, petrol powered scooter.

It is a bit of a grey area as the electric ones require you to scoot a bit before the electric motor kicks in, thus some argue (perhaps wrongly) that they are electric assistance, rather then drive.

I'd be interested to see if any of these electric scooters (the stand-up, push) ones have ever actually gone in front of a judge. I don't think they have, not that I have heard anyway. That is why it is such a legal grey area, until it goes before a judge and s/he makes a decision, it will remain so.

Frankly what I've learned from discussions on forums is that peoples understanding of how the law works in Ireland is pretty terrible and it isn't as black and white as people think it is.

When something new and unique comes before a judge, that is a big deal. A judge gets to set precedence then and thus such a case would get far more attention then normal.

A judge might ask:
- Does this fall under the definition of a MPV? Maybe, but not certain
- Did such devices exist when the definitions were devised? No
- If they had, would they have been including or excluded? Probably excluded.
- Are these more similar to a MPV or more similar to other excluded devices like electric bikes and electric wheelchairs? More like Bikes, wheelcharis
- Do these pose a danger to the operator or others more in line with a regular MPV or an excluded bike or powered wheelchair? Again, bikes, wheelchairs
- Is is actually possible to get license and insurance for these devices at the moment? No
- Would their be a public benefit to requiring these to have a license/insurance or not? Probably not, most likely major public benefit to not.

Of course, you never know how any particular judge will decide, but I really wouldn't be so certain that a judge would rule against these. I kind of suspect if it ever went before a judge, they would likely give the Gardai a bollocking for wasting their time, kick it out of court and send a note to the government that these need to be clearly legislated for.

This is why this is such a grey area, why the Gardai say one thing, but the Department of Transport another. These didn't exist when the legislation was drafted and thus it isn't 100% clear how a judge would decide on them and it wouldn't be clear until one does or new legislation specifically for them is.

Don't get me wrong, it should be cleared up and specifically legislated for. That would be the best for everyone. I'd suspect they will get defined the same as electric bikes, with the same power and speed limits.

That would then allow these to be widely sold here and used by people, while allowing the Gardai to actually go after the ones that go beyond the limits set out.

Given how much of a PR disaster that tweet by the Gardai was, how their hasn't been any similar tweets or stories of seized scooters in the past two years since that tweet, yet e-scooters have massively increased on our streets, with me seeing dozens every day, passing right be Gardai, it is clear that they have been told to look the other way for now. Probably until legislation is properly drafted.

These scooters are all illegal in Ireland because if they have no pedelec system and if the motor engages while no pedals are being turned or by using a throttle and are over 250 watts of power then they are illegal and can not be used on public streets and footpaths as they are classed as motor vehicles/mopeheads.

God help anyone if they hit someone with one of these scooters as they will have some compensation and legal bills to pay and possibly a criminal conviction for knowingly using a illegally powered motor vehicle without insurance and or license and ignorance of the Law is no exception. You buy it it's your job to know the legalities.

The same goes for hoverboards etc are all illegal in public in Ireland.

It is not illegal to buy or sell them yet that I am aware.

bk

Great job Mad_Lad, so can you point me at Irish case law on these?

Not legislation that was drafted prior to their invention, actual case law?

Again this is a great example of people being clueless of how the law works here.

prinzeugen

prinzeugen wrote: »

There was discussion on another forum about the legally of these things.

If its capable of moving you without physical effort its a MPV and you need a M licence minimum. If its ok for someone with no driving licence to ride one of these, then I should not need a licence for a similar, petrol powered scooter.

I would also be scared of having one of these things in my house. They tend to catch fire..

It's good you brought this up,

Most people are not in the slightest bit aware of the dangers of lithium batteries.

I always emphasise to people, never, ever charge a battery for ebike/e-scooter-hoverboard etc unattended.

If charging ebike batteries etc, remove them and charge on the Hob with extractor fan on ( make sure the hob is cold :-) ) and have a fire alarm close by with blankets.

These batteries can catch fire at any time even in storage. Never charge in a non fire proof location , there is not just you to think about but others in the house, Kids, neighbors etc.

And do not ever put water on a lithium battery that is on fire as it will become even more flammable

The smoke is also highly toxic so if a fire occurs, evacuate

bk

Mad_Lad, have you had experience of your EV car bursting into flames like that?

bk

bk wrote: »

Mad_Lad, have you had experience of your EV car bursting into flames like that?

lol No, electric cars are completely different and are built to far higher standards than a lot of batteries assembled in China. Not all but a lot but even so if it's in the house it should never, ever be trusted.

Eric Cartman

I agree with legalizing these, theres already tonnes in dublin anyway. But a helmet and high vis should be mandated just like people on bicycles should have to wear.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

lol No, electric cars are completely different and are built to far higher standards than a lot of batteries assembled in China. Not all but a lot but even so if it's in the house it should never, ever be trusted.

They are exactly the same lithium ion batteries used in smart phones, laptops and EVs. And yes many (if not most) EV batteries are made in China too.

My point is that you are scaremongering about batteries. Of course a certain amount of caution with all batteries is a good idea. But seeing such comments coming from you is rather ironic as I often see similar scaremongering from ICE drivers about EV's

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I agree with legalizing these, theres already tonnes in dublin anyway. But a helmet and high vis should be mandated just like people on bicycles should have to wear.

Bicycles don't require High Viz and helmets. And there is lots of evidence that forcing legislation on that actually increases the danger faced by cyclists.

Eric Cartman

bk wrote: »

They are exactly the same lithium ion batteries used in smart phones, laptops and EVs. And yes many (if not most) EV batteries are made in China too.

My point is that you are scaremongering about batteries. Of course a certain amount of caution with all batteries is a good idea. But seeing such comments coming from you is rather ironic as I often see similar scaremongering from ICE drivers about EV's



Bicycles don't require High Viz and helmets. And there is lots of evidence that forcing legislation on that actually increases the danger faced by cyclists.

I know theres not, but there should be, please explain how it does ?

pedestrians should have arm bands on each arm minimum it's hard to see them sometimes when driving.

If they are legalised they will not be allowed on foot paths where I see them mostly, they'll be on the street and our streets are not safe for cyclists never mind people on these scooters.

bk

bk wrote: »

They are exactly the same lithium ion batteries used in smart phones, laptops and EVs. And yes many (if not most) EV batteries are made in China too.

My point is that you are scaremongering about batteries. Of course a certain amount of caution with all batteries is a good idea. But seeing such comments coming from you is rather ironic as I often see similar scaremongering from ICE drivers about EV's



Bicycles don't require High Viz and helmets. And there is lots of evidence that forcing legislation on that actually increases the danger faced by cyclists.

They are not the same, most of the electric car batteries are made using pouch cells , most ebike batteries are made from 18650 cylindrical cells.

The difference being the quality of EV batteries is much higher, and the assembly of the packs is much higher and the electronics are built and tested to a far higher standard.

Ebike batteries are not crushed, smashed etc like ev batteries are for testing.

The likes of the Gen I Nissan Leaf battery would not catch fire only smoke , the current gen I am not so sure.

There are different chemistry some a lot safer than others.

My question to anyone here , if it's known that ebike, scooter, hoverboard batteries can catch fire would they trust that battery with their families life or the lives of anyone else in the building and all for the sake of taking a little precaution and charge the battery in a fire proof location with smoke alarm ?

We have seen Tesla batteries catch fire because they use a much less safer chemistry than the other Auto companies and the penalty of this is power density meaning less battery capacity.

If a car catches fire it's mostly going to be outside and will not cause the potential devastating consequences and loss of life than an ebike battery setting ht house on fire !

bk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I know theres not, but there should be, please explain how it does ?

There are various ways.

When they introduced mandatory helmet laws in Australia, it massively reduced the amount of cyclists, yet the number of deaths of cyclists actually went up:

- Saftey in numbers. The more cyclists on the roads, the more likely a motorist is to expect a cyclist to be their and use caution. These helmet laws often radically cut the number of cyclists, which results in motorists being less careful driving.

It is pretty noticable that almost no one in Amsterdam or Copenhagen wear helmets or high viz, yet they have the highest cycling rates in the world and the least accidents. Saftey in numbers, there are so many cyclists their, drivers always expect their to be a cyclist and drive more carefully.

Also mandatory laws lead to less people cycling, thus more congestion and people get less exercise. Which can compound our already serious weight problems we are now experiencing in the west.

Research has also shown that when cyclists wear helmets and high viz, that motorists drive closer to them and give them less space, then when not wearing a helmet.

Their really is a lot of psychology going on with this subject and lot of very unexpected results when you study the subject around the world.

If you truly care about cyclists and want them to be safer, then demand that better, fully segregated cycling infrastructure is built and the more people are encouraged to cycle.

Safety in numbers and well designed infrastructure is what protects cyclists.

bk

Deleted User wrote: »

They are not the same, most of the electric car batteries are made using pouch cells , most ebike batteries are made from 18650 cylindrical cells.

Err... 18650 cycles, so exactly the same ones in the Tesla Model S and X...

Even pouch cells aren't fundamentally different. They are still lithium ion and can still catch fire. The batteries in mobile phones and laptops are pouch cells and they catch fire all the time too. Galaxy Note most famously....

BMW i3's like yours also catch fire:
https://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-burns-to-a-crisp-near-barcelona/

Not that I'm terribly concerned by all this, it isn't like ICE cars don't also regularly burst into flames too.

You are just scaremongering and spreading FUD about a technology you don't like.

Of course a bit of caution when it comes to all batteries and electricity is of course a good idea. Just like ICE cars and gas appliances. Which is why I have multiple very good smoke alarms (Nest Protects) to protect my family. But such incidents are relatively rare.