Luas Finglas

CatInABox wrote: »

Reading the tender, they mention "four new stops and a new park and ride". Depending on how you interpret that, it's possible that the "new park and ride" is a fifth stop itself, on the far side of the M50.

Would have thought that a park and ride also has to be a stop so dont think there will be five stations.

Also the tender document mentions a new terminus at Charlestown which I can only presume means right in front of the shopping centre and not further north in a field outside the M50, an area which is commonly known as Coldwinters.

AFAIK the area now referred to as Charlestown only got that name after the shopping centre was built and the area has effectively assumed the name Charlestown after the shopping centre itself. I think older maps used to list the area as Meakstown but now Charlestown is commonly used and refers to the SC and the areas around it.

In any case I think a P&R right outside Charlestown SC would be choked with traffic and people wont be able to get in/out of it quick enough, thus defeating the purpose. Also theres a big chuck of land there between Joe Duffy motors and the McDonalds/KFC. That land had or else still has planning permission for a retail park with the likes of Woodies. Halfords, etc in it which when built will bring more traffic into the area. The road outside Charlestown SC is already busy and suffers from tailbacks on it at rush hour as it is. If they stick a P&R there too it would only get a lot worse imo.

Yeah that grass verge is pretty wide and runs all the way up the side of Noyeks Newmans and fronts onto the N2 so definitely good space there for two tram lines.

The problem is that road Charlestown Place is already jammers at rush hours and putting a park and ride there is only going to make the traffic even worse. Theres two industrial estates either side of the N2 at that point with alot of employees coming and going as well as a lot of trucks serving the entire Parcel Motel/Nightline operation as well as UPS there too.

Ive only ever used the Red Cow P&R a couple of times but it works because you've direct access to it right off the N7 and when you park up its generally a 2-3 minute walk to the Luas stop. If the Finglas extension P&R goes in front of Charlestown Shopping Centre I could see traffic backed up in the mornings to turn right to get into it and then you might have to go up three or four stories to find a space, then a walk and a lift back down to ground floor and walk to the Luas station. If all that took you 10 or 12 minutes you'd soon be thinking that if you were in your car you'd be in Phibsoro before the tram has even left the station at Charlestown.

If the powers that be want people to switch modes mid journey then the switch over has to be as fast and as seamless as possible. No point in people switching from car to tram if their journey time goes up instead of down. Eventually congestion charges might take the choice away from many people but its still pretty crap if peoples commute takes longer than it would if the Park and Ride was located in a more accessible location such as north of the M50.

CatInABox wrote: »

Reading the tender, they mention "four new stops and a new park and ride". Depending on how you interpret that, it's possible that the "new park and ride" is a fifth stop itself, on the far side of the M50.

It says two bridges, assuming one is over the canal/railway and the other crossing the Finglas Road, there is no bridge to cross the M50.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Would it be better to not have a P&R on Luas Finglas and instead have one at Ashbourne with buses direct to the city centre? Having a thousand cars drive 10km each to get on public transport isn't really sustainable, far better to have them drive a short journey and then share a vehicle all the way into the city. Between the individual estate and other lands around Finglas, we should be aiming to fill the Luas with people walking/cycling to stations.

I disagree. A bus is simply not going to tempt people out of their cars the way a train or tram will.

I also disagree that there should be any particular focus on who is using the trams - the priority IMO should be first and foremost to have a public transport system that is useful to PEOPLE no matter their lifestyle. My priorities would be that such an extension should:
1) Offer enough capacity for all the people who need/want to use it.
2) Be useful to as many people as possible.

Admittedly I've only been to Charlestown once or twice but I would share concern about using the area as a Park and Ride. It seems like the area has enough usage with the shopping centre and local residential areas, that is developed as part of the city. Bringing lots of long distance traffic in there does not strike me as a good idea for either the locals or the P&R users.

The best place for an N2 P&R would be actually off the N2, not beyond it, the whole point of park and ride is that you don't come into the city and avoid the worst congestion, bringing drivers in past the M50 to get the trams isn't really compatible with that. The space in Charlestown should be for the people who live/work/shop there, not through travelers and the resulting congestion would ill suit those changing there at the P&R. The line should be extended beyond the M50 if they want Park and Ride.

SeanW wrote: »

I disagree. A bus is simply not going to tempt people out of their cars the way a train or tram will.

I also disagree that there should be any particular focus on who is using the trams - the priority IMO should be first and foremost to have a public transport system that is useful to PEOPLE no matter their lifestyle. My priorities would be that such an extension should:
1) Offer enough capacity for all the people who need/want to use it.
2) Be useful to as many people as possible.

Admittedly I've only been to Charlestown once or twice but I would share concern about using the area as a Park and Ride. It seems like the area has enough usage with the shopping centre and local residential areas, that is developed as part of the city. Bringing lots of long distance traffic in there does not strike me as a good idea for either the locals or the P&R users.

The best place for an N2 P&R would be actually off the N2, not beyond it, the whole point of park and ride is that you don't come into the city and avoid the worst congestion, bringing drivers in past the M50 to get the trams isn't really compatible with that. The space in Charlestown should be for the people who live/work/shop there, not through travelers and the resulting congestion would ill suit those changing there at the P&R. The line should be extended beyond the M50 if they want Park and Ride.

Sounds great but easier said than done. Getting beyond the M50 is going to be extremely expensive. The M50 is well above the ground level either side so going over it would involve rising the track from a long way back which is going to be very difficult given the amount of development around Charlestown SC. Going under requires a very expensive tunnel and again limited space for a portal at Charlestown. How many millions do we have to spend for people who think buses aren't good enough for them.

Again, let's not pretend hundreds of people each driving 10km to get a tram then driving 10km back is eco friendly. Buses bringing all those people those journeys in the same vehicles is far more efficient and economical. We also want to avoid an existing Green Line situation where one line is expected to serve too big an area with the result being people can't get on. The industrial estate is earmarked for substantial residential development, we shouldn't be facilitating development further out and eating up pt capacity which urban regeneration will rely on.

Or could they not just build the park and ride the far side of m50 and put in a pedestrian bridge to bring people over to the last stop on the city side ?

SeanW wrote: »

Not sure where to start with this tbh.

Firstly, Ashbourne already has buses, so I'm not sure how your proposal is really any different to what is in place now. Second, anyone who proposes that more buses into Dublin City Centre will help ANYTHING, very likely has not been there (at peak times at least) in some time. The Luas Cross City made a complete mess of it, creating severe pinch points of tram/bus congestion in particular around Trinity College, I have very distinct memories of spending 2+ hours each way each day on a bus for a short journey, with a good chunk of that (1/2 hour each way each day) trying to get around the mess at College St/Westmoreland St/D'Olier St. Dublin is FAR beyond the point where fooling around with buses is going to do any good. Dublin needs things like the Metro and the Dart Underground. Yesterday. Thirdly (to the extent that you are proposing anything new) your solution only makes sense to people who live in or near Ashbourne, a P&R on the new line itself would serve anyone along or near the N2. Fourth, there would be no need for new tunnels or a massive new gradient to cross the M50, because the M50 runs in a cutting under the R122. A new Luas line could take the R104 St. Margarets Road, turn onto the R122, cross the M50 on that bridge and end in green space just off the N2 and outside the city. Fifth and finally, your concern about P&R users "eating up pt capacity which urban regeneration will rely on" can be addressed by making sure that the capacity of thing is sufficient to serve all its users, now and for the foreseeable future.

Your rant about buses need to be reassessed in terms of BusConnects which will bring in big changes. If BusConnects are Luas Finglas we're in place, there would be less cars and buses on the road which would really improve bus journey times from Ashbourne.Taking the road bridge over the M50 for Luas is going to be met with significant opposition, much like closing Dunville Ave. Getting to the other side of the M50 would certainly be the source of significant cost and/or delay.

We really need to stop looking at Luas as the solution to all our problems. Luas is great but it has limitations and shouldn't be serving areas 10km away. Talk about making sure that the capacity is sufficient to serve all its users, now and for the foreseeable future means recognising this reality. If Luas Finglas opened in the morning, it would attract significant numbers of users. It is probably a decade from opening and the population is growing. Lots of apartments at Charlestown SC and Dublin Industrial Estate should be the next Cherrywood (ironically the current Green Line which was to serve Cherrywood is approaching breaking point before any apartments are finished there).

Idbatterim wrote: »

luas ten km is one thing, its the twenty something km distance that is the issue. Anyway, if they can be upgraded to metro later on, and this is planned for, from the get go, its not a bad way to get the ball rolling...

Twenty something km is not a issue for buses, particularly when there is motorway half the way and there should be (post BusConnects) good quality bus lanes the remainder. In fact, that is the kind of thing buses are perfect for. I doubt this route will be suitable for upgrading to Metro, there won't be the required segregation. It is a route suited to Luas in terms of length and area served, as long as they don't lump a chunk of north county Dublin and the south west corner of Meath onto it to.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Your rant about buses need to be reassessed in terms of BusConnects which will bring in big changes. If BusConnects are Luas Finglas we're in place, there would be less cars and buses on the road which would really improve bus journey times from Ashbourne.

BusConnects will help, but remember that Dublin was first laid out in the 10th century and even in newer cities that are well laid out (like New York with its grid patterns) there is only so much that you can get out of surface transport. Dublin is at or near the limits of that. In addition to have Trinity College, a solid mile+ squared of no streets, right in the city centre and in everyone's way as they try to get from North to South or from places like Merrion Square towards the West. Bad as this was, it was fine before the Luas Cross City, now it's a shambles. The gov. tried to get more out of the city streets and it backfired.

Taking the road bridge over the M50 for Luas is going to be met with significant opposition, much like closing Dunville Ave. Getting to the other side of the M50 would certainly be the source of significant cost and/or delay.

There is plenty of road space on St. Margarets' Road up to the R122 junction that could easily accommodate tram lanes. Once you turn at the R104/R122 roundabout, you cross the M50 and are into open countryside. It would be simple enough to add tram tracks and powerline to the two lane bridge and share the road between the trams and the insignificant levels of traffic on it. If need be, the bridge could be widened to have traffic lanes and tram lanes, the latter of which buses would be allowed to use as well, presumably.

There's no reason, except being penny-wise and pound-foolish, to have a P&R in Charlestown and not just beyond the M50. Zero. And you're not going to get much more transport service in Dublin via surface streets, BusConnects or no BusConnects. Ask anyone who has the misfortune of commuting into the central area by any mode. The city is FAR beyond that.

We really need to stop looking at Luas as the solution to all our problems. Luas is great but it has limitations and shouldn't be serving areas 10km away. Talk about making sure that the capacity is sufficient to serve all its users, now and for the foreseeable future means recognising this reality.

On what basis have you reached the conclusion that a line with a proper P&R at the end could not possibly serve all its users?

If Luas Finglas opened in the morning, it would attract significant numbers of users. It is probably a decade from opening and the population is growing. Lots of apartments at Charlestown SC and Dublin Industrial Estate should be the next Cherrywood (ironically the current Green Line which was to serve Cherrywood is approaching breaking point before any apartments are finished there).

Yes, the Green Line Luas needs to be upgraded to Metro. Not exactly news to anyone here ...

I can see the arguments for the Bray extension. But with the Green line already jammers and the building of 25,000 units at Cherrywood it would be like throwing petrol on a fire.

Agree that new central lines should take priority though. That said the Finglas extension at only 4km and which opens up the Dublin Industrial Estate to lots of new housing would be an easy win. Just gotta go a bit further for a proper Park and Ride north of the m50 but Im sure they'll figure that out.

The minutes of the NTA Board Meeting in May indicate that a non-statutory consultation on the emerging preferred route for the LUAS extension to Finglas will be held shortly (date not specified).

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1286975654202941442?s=19

Early look at the proposed routing

dhaughton99 wrote: »

I predict that the country won’t have a pot to piss in around 2025 and Luas Finglas will be long forgotten.

I think if the country is in recession its actually more likely to go ahead because it is such a small project, just 4kms of track and perhaps around 300m of investment. Were the Metrolink to get postponed due to a recession that then makes the Finglas Luas an easy win for government, it allows them to point at something they are doing and the costs are relatively cheap in the grand scheme of things.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Hete we go again , basically just come up wity the cheapest option. Build nothing if cost is all they are concerned about and not value...

Well for that price you're introducing luas into a new neighbourhood, plus it would further justify the money already spent on the extension to Broombridge because I would hazard a guess that this existing branch probably has the lowest patronage of all the luas arms spanning out of the city centre. For such a low price, it's great value for money and I would hope it acts as a template for more extensions to other parts of the city. Of course, for some people, nothing less than a fully fledged metro is good enough for Dublin regardless of where you want to send it.

I can't see another junction being added immediately north of the M50, a P&R would have to go at the next existing junction. That would be a fair bit of extra track and would have a significant enough cost. I'm not sure it actually offers that good value when you consider that numbers will be paltry outside of a few hours a day, 5 days a week. The vast majority of the traffic is originating from Ashbourne or Ratoath, better to provide solutions directly from those towns.