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Dublin @30km

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    #62
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I' going to do a test drive @30kh/h tonight on the way home, (just to see how I get on at such a slow speed). Will report back later this evening.

    Cheers 4 now.

    Please dont. You will only be holding up the people driving behind you.

    Better off doing it in your driveway when you get home :D


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    #63
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,716 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Another ridiculous law made by the anti-car lobby of the inner city. It'll actually cause additional dangers as you'll get more lane-hopping and indecision, less attention to the actual road as motorists watch the speedometer instead, pedestrians and cyclists chancing a run between traffic and so on.

    Many people will ignore it which will result in more danger as the difference in speeds will be greater. 30 km/h on most roads is simply too slow, but it makes the "I can't take responsibility for my own life and personal safety by being aware of traffic and behaving accordingly rather than walking out in front of it" types feel better I suppose so it's all worthwhile. :rolleyes:

    Personally it's pretty rare I go into town these days anyway because it's such a pain to get around (and I actually would never accept a job in the city centre as a result), but I'll continue to drive as I always have.. at a speed appropriate to the conditions at the time - be it faster or slower than the "limit" - rather than blind adherence to it regardless.


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    #64
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,716 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I really hope county councils throughout Ireland see sense and implement similar schemes in resedential and high footfall pedestrian areas. 30km/h is a grand speed to drive at or you are not actually able to operate your car properly.

    Do you drive yourself out of curiosity, and if so do you drive greater distances than maybe a km or two?

    Genuine question as I can't believe anyone who spends any sort of time behind the wheel would come out with such an uninformed statement.


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    #65
    PhilipsR
    Registered Users Posts: 723 ✭✭✭PhilipsR


    The planning in this city is an absolute mess. There just isn't an overall plan at all.

    18mph is Nanny State crap. Painfully slow and completely unnecessary.


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    #66
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I' going to do a test drive @30kh/h tonight on the way home, (just to see how I get on at such a slow speed). Will report back later this evening.

    Cheers 4 now.

    OK, so I tried it out and this is what I discovered;

    Its definately a 2nd gear job in my car, and its also very difficult to hold it at 30km/h (18MPH). Its the same speed as if you were on a potholed narrow counytry lane. Its slow, very slow, painfully slow, with a capital S for SLOW.

    You keep wanting to change up into 3rd, but if you do then that imediately pushes you over the limit ... (so you must stay in 2nd) and concentrate hard on the dashboard so that you don't creep over 30km/h.

    On saying all of the above, I did get the impression that the new limit would be a sensible precaution in a multi story car park, or a built up estate with a cul de sac. Otherwise the new limit is totally crazy, uninforcable & unatainable (for any length of time) as cyclists whizz past on your inside . . .


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    #67
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Deedsie wrote: »
    50 km/h is not the "default" speed limit in Dublin city centre. Surely the driver must take some responsibility to know the speed limit of an area they regularly drive in. Although taxis happily ignore speed limits etc and they are professional drivers.

    50 is the national speed limit and from my understanding is considered a default unless clearly stated otherwise.

    I had gone through my route throughout and there was very minimal information to state alternative speed limits. The only spot is where there is a lot of works going on for the luas, where traffic proceeds slowly anyway and as a result, there are more pedestrians walking through the road between cars.


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    #68
    sdanseo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    loyatemu wrote: »
    even if half of drivers obey it, the other half will be forced to obey it because they'll be stuck behind the slower cars.

    The AA are banging on about it being unenforceable, but that's not really the point, it will bring average speeds down and set a marker that city streets are shared spaces (I see the AA wanted limits on some city streets increased to 80 - really nailing their colours to the mast there...)

    City streets like the Stillorgan Road. Y'know, 3 lanes each way, partially grade separated, central median.
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    50 is the national speed limit and from my understanding is considered a default unless clearly stated otherwise.

    There has (rather stupidly) been no such thing as a national speed limit since 2002. Used to be if no posted limit, 60mph. Now, if in doubt, it could well be 60km/h instead. Every road has a limit except narrow country roads with a max speed of 80km/h and advisory of "SLOW".


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    #69
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    LordSutch wrote: »
    OK, so I tried it out and this is what I discovered;

    Its definately a 2nd gear job in my car, and its also very difficult to hold it at 30km/h (18MPH). Its the same speed as if you were on a potholed narrow counytry lane. Its slow, very slow, painfully slow, with a capital S for SLOW.

    You keep wanting to change up into 3rd, but if you do then that imediately pushes you over the limit ... (so you must stay in 2nd) and concentrate hard on the dashboard so that you don't creep over 30km/h.

    On saying all of the above, I did get the impression that the new limit would be a sensible precaution in a multi story car park, or a built up estate with a cul de sac. Otherwise the new limit is totally crazy, uninforcable & unatainable (for any length of time) as cyclists whizz past on your inside . . .

    If you round like a normal person it's 19mph. Only a bad driver can't drive at that speed. Keep up the practice. You should improve. I can drive in 4th gear in my car at that speed. No problem at all.

    I seriously can't understand people's need to go as fast as possible all th time. Relax!


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    #70
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    LordSutch wrote: »
    OK, so I tried it out and this is what I discovered;

    Its definately a 2nd gear job in my car, and its also very difficult to hold it at 30km/h (18MPH). Its the same speed as if you were on a potholed narrow counytry lane. Its slow, very slow, painfully slow, with a capital S for SLOW.

    You keep wanting to change up into 3rd, but if you do then that imediately pushes you over the limit ... (so you must stay in 2nd) and concentrate hard on the dashboard so that you don't creep over 30km/h.

    On saying all of the above, I did get the impression that the new limit would be a sensible precaution in a multi story car park, or a built up estate with a cul de sac. Otherwise the new limit is totally crazy, uninforcable & unatainable (for any length of time) as cyclists whizz past on your inside . . .

    Trade in for a slower model so. I've no problem driving at 30 when I know I have to :p


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    #71
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    sdanseo wrote: »
    City streets like the Stillorgan Road. Y'know, 3 lanes each way, partially grade separated, central median.



    There has (rather stupidly) been no such thing as a national speed limit since 2002. Used to be if no posted limit, 60mph. Now, if in doubt, it could well be 60km/h instead. Every road has a limit except narrow country roads with a max speed of 80km/h and advisory of "SLOW".

    Fair enough, but there are defaults for road types and or scenarios unless stated otherwise as attached. The Northside of the city doesn't seem to have much signage along the route I take. And my only chance to see it is minimised by an abundance of those its meant to assist. So I might find out who that should be queried with when I get a chance. But if they look to push this through a lot of the city, they'll really need to put a lot of effort into informing people of it.


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    #72
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Your understanding is incorrect, city centre driving naturally is different to the rest of the country. Distractions like Luas works, groups of pedestrians, large numbers of cyclists demand an even higher level of awareness from motorists. Alas we don't really get that do we.

    Eh, I'm not sure what you are at. I have just stated I spend more time looking at what's around me, then 2 metres up every pole, only to miss the single pole on my route that states the 30 km/h speed limit.


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    #73
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Would you not just assume that the speed limit would be different in an Urban area? And that Dublin city centre it is 30 km/h? Better safe than sorry would be my approach

    No, attaining the speed limit is obviously dependent on other factors, such as what's going on around you. It doesn't matter whether or not that road is rated for 50, you won't be doing it because of pedestrian behaviour with slow moving traffic, due to congestion, road works, a lot of traffic lights out of sync or any other reason. But if that isn't happening, I'd of seen no reason to not assume it should be 50. I'll be looking out for the sign I identified earlier tomorrow, to determine why I'd not seen it before.

    If I was to incorrectly assume a lower limit further back on that road through summerhill where town houses and apartments are, I'd have to contend with everyone going nearly twice the speed of me. That also creates a dangerous environment for road users. Especially when you take into account a badly laid out junction just before it.

    There's a whole lot going on a road level in that area.


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    #74
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    If you round like a normal person it's 19mph. Only a bad driver can't drive at that speed. Keep up the practice. You should improve. I can drive in 4th gear in my car at that speed. No problem at all.

    I seriously can't understand people's need to go as fast as possible all th time. Relax!

    18.6 MPH.

    In my diesel machine 2nd gear is the only option. Revs too high in 1st, and I can't get into 3rd without the car wanting to creep over 30km/h. Can't get into 4th gear till about 40km/h for fear of stalling. I have been driving for several decades & in different machines (petrol & diesel), so its not as if I am inexperienced on the subject.

    For the non drivers among you, think of it as a 'slow bicycle race for cars', meaning you have to concentrate hard on holding back & going very slow, so as not to go over the limit.

    Technically speaking; 30km/h is an abnormally slow speed to maintain for any length of time (in certain cars). The gearing ratios play a part as does the engine aspiration type, high torque low revs diesel, high revs petrol.


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    #75
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    LordSutch wrote: »
    18.6 MPH.

    In my diesel machine 2nd gear is the only option. Revs too high in 1st, and I can't get into 3rd without the car wanting to creep over 30km/h. Can't get into 4th gear till about 40km/h for fear of stalling. I have been driving for several decades & in different machines (petrol & diesel), so its not as if I am inexperienced on the subject.

    For the non drivers among you, think of it as a 'slow bicycle race for cars', meaning you have to concentrate hard on holding back & going very slow, so as not to go over the limit.

    Technically speaking; 30km/h is an abnormally slow speed to maintain for any length of time (in certain cars). The gearing ratios play a part as does the engine aspiration type, high torque low revs diesel, high revs petrol.

    What is this mighty steed you call your car?


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    #76
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    The Pheasant2 wrote: »
    How do they plan on monitoring cyclists going over 30km/h?

    same as every other speed limit. It's completely irrelevant as cyclists are not subject to them.


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    #77
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,903 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Either way, it's happening and it should lead to less people killed on the roads in Dublin. 29 or so were killed in Dublin crashes in the past 3 years. Is life really that invaluable to people that they couldn't leave the house 5 minutes earlier for their trip?

    How many of these people were killed by vehicles travelling at 50? Most are large vehicles turning, which in most cases are due to the person going into the blindspot of the large vehicle, or people doing way more than 50 and they will be doing way way more than 30 for the next fatality or serious injury.

    I don't drive in Dublin City centre often and I try my best not to exceed urban limits if the road is clear, by using cruise control so I can concentrate on the road. I've driven through the current 30 zone several times looking out for the reduced limit signs but have never seen them. If they seriously wanted to protect pedestrian then if should be blatantly obvious that you are in the zone with massive signs when entering and regular repeat signs.

    An even better way to protect pedestrians and cyclists would be the system in some US cities where the speed limit is 25 but motorists get a green wave if they do 20, doing 25 you get stopped at every junction.


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    #78
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    What is this mighty steed you call your car?

    Its a mighty standard 1.6 HDi (92 BHP) turbo Diesel.

    Renault Scenic type.
    ...nothing special.


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    #79
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Its a mighty standard 1.6 HDi (92 BHP) turbo Diesel :)

    Renault Scenic type.
    ...nothing special.

    Should be no issue putting it into 3rd or 4th. Mine is 1.7 CRDi (115 BHP). No problems with 4th in it at 30 kph.


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    #80
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    Should be no issue putting it into 3rd or 4th. Mine is 1.7 CRDi (115 BHP). No problems with 4th in it at 30 kph.

    I have already told you in a previous post.

    "In my diesel machine 2nd gear is the only option. Revs too high in 1st, and I can't get into 3rd without the car wanting to creep over 30km/h. Can't get into 4th gear till about 40km/h for fear of stalling".

    Accept that and move on.


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    #81
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Del2005 wrote:
    An even better way to protect pedestrians and cyclists would be the system in some US cities where the speed limit is 25 but motorists get a green wave if they do 20, doing 25 you get stopped at every junction.

    I think the green wave does exist on the quays or at least did at one point. Remember cycling along the north side of the quays for the first time a couple of years ago and getting 4/5 greens in a row. Having driven down them before I was expecting to have to stop alot. That many greens in a row was actually disconcerting until I looked at my speedo and saw I was sitting at about 30km/hr. I'm not a regular user so don't know if that's a once off. But I imagine at rush hour heavy traffic either side of the 30km/hr zone could know any attempt at a gren wave out of wack.


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    #82
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users Posts: 6,483 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I have already told you in a previous post.

    "In my diesel machine 2nd gear is the only option. Revs too high in 1st, and I can't get into 3rd without the car wanting to creep over 30km/h. Can't get into 4th gear till about 40km/h for fear of stalling".

    Accept that and move on.

    Maybe it needs someone to look at it, or, a different driver. :p


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    #83
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Well I drive a 2.0 litre (120 bhp) Ford Kuga with zero issues driving at 30 km/h. Practice makes perfect though, people will adapt to it.

    In 4th gear?


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    #84
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Otherwise the new limit is totally crazy, uninforcable & unatainable (for any length of time) as cyclists whizz past on your inside . . .
    It won't be obeyed, by anyone.

    Instead, law abiding drivers will learn that it is ok to drive faster than 30, and in turn will decide that maybe it's not so bad to drive outside the other limits too as the chances of getting caught are very slim. It will be ignored by people who ignore limits anyway.

    Cyclists will continue to get killed by left turning trucks, people will continue to get killed on the M50 because they are looking at their phone.


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    #85
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Can everyone please remember that this is Commuting and Transport and not After Hours -- posters are expected to go beyond mud slinging and the basic stuff.

    Please everyone stop debating 30km/h vs 20mph and ever fraction between -- every one please call it 30, 30km/h or even 30kmph. Please debate the real issues and points of disagreement, not semantics.

    People have mostly being ok, but a bit of toning it down is needed on both sides around the edges.

    -- moderator
    hmmm wrote: »
    law abiding drivers will learn that it is ok to drive faster than 30,

    Then they won't be law abiding if they go over 30km/h on a street with that limit.... I'm saying this now to stop another side debate.

    -- moderator


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    #86
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Well I think its too slow, and seriously doubt that it will be adhered to by the majority of drivers.

    Back in May of this year Conor Faughnan of the AA said this ...

    “You don’t make roads safer by writing a lower number on a pole,” he said.

    “Imposing a 30km/h limit on wide areas is unwise and tends not to work.

    “These limits have to be introduced in sympathy with the engineering of the road,” he said. “Putting up polls with ‘30km’ on them will not make roads safer.

    “If you put up a number that compels drivers to drive in a way that would fail the driving test, it undermines confidence in speed limits generally.”

    Mr Faughnan said AA Ireland lobbied long and hard to get rid of 80km/h signs on narrow country roads for the same reason.

    “If the number on the sign is obviously ridiculous, you’re embarking on a widespread advertising campaign that speed limits are ridiculous and don’t need to be followed,” he said.

    Full article here > http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/controversy-erupts-over-plans-for-blanket-30km-dublin-city-speed-limit-34735439.html


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    #87
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I agree that it will not immediately lead to mass obediance. It currently doesn't. But the possibility of being caught should reduce off peak speeds as people foolishly try to beat the odds (I'll brake in time thinking).

    I have driven a range of vehicles, from a massey 35 to a volvo p1800 to 2ltr TDS and 8 wheelers. A few in between. Driving at 30 is not difficult in any of them (bar the Massey).

    It will take a few years to be the norm amd that will be that.

    A far better improvement to public safety would be red light cameras and average speed cameras but I really can't see the negatives unless there is no attempt at random location enforcement.


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    #88
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,903 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    I think the green wave does exist on the quays or at least did at one point. Remember cycling along the north side of the quays for the first time a couple of years ago and getting 4/5 greens in a row. Having driven down them before I was expecting to have to stop alot. That many greens in a row was actually disconcerting until I looked at my speedo and saw I was sitting at about 30km/hr. I'm not a regular user so don't know if that's a once off. But I imagine at rush hour heavy traffic either side of the 30km/hr zone could know any attempt at a gren wave out of wack.

    You fluked it, the opposite of Sod's Law. I've occasionally got a green wave on the N81, from the M50 to past Jobstown, but the next day doing the exact same speed I get stopped at every light . Unless policy has been changed in the last few years there is no green wave, IIRC I heard a rep from Dublin city council saying that they would not introduce it.


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    #89
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,903 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Well I think its too slow, and seriously doubt that it will be adhered to by the majority of drivers.

    Back in May of this year Conor Faughnan of the AA said this ...

    “You don’t make roads safer by writing a lower number on a pole,” he said.

    “Imposing a 30km/h limit on wide areas is unwise and tends not to work.

    “These limits have to be introduced in sympathy with the engineering of the road,” he said. “Putting up polls with ‘30km’ on them will not make roads safer.

    “If you put up a number that compels drivers to drive in a way that would fail the driving test, it undermines confidence in speed limits generally.”

    Mr Faughnan said AA Ireland lobbied long and hard to get rid of 80km/h signs on narrow country roads for the same reason.

    “If the number on the sign is obviously ridiculous, you’re embarking on a widespread advertising campaign that speed limits are ridiculous and don’t need to be followed,” he said.

    Full article here > http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/controversy-erupts-over-plans-for-blanket-30km-dublin-city-speed-limit-34735439.html

    The AA represents its shareholders not motorists. 30 in built up areas is safer for everyone. The issue is that it has no effect if it isn't enforced and there will never be speed checks in housing estates.

    Harping back to the US where they have variable speed limits, and increased penalties, outside schools during school hours. You can be guaranteed that there will be a police car sitting outside a school during these hours, come over to good old Ireland and you'll see the worse driving outside our schools and not a Garda to be seen.


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    #90
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I can't believe this, "it's hard to drive slowly", "people will be watching the speedometer and not the road" nonsense is still flying around.

    Argue about whether it's enforced, by all means. There have been 30km/h limits in Dublin City centre for a number of years now, I think we've put to bed any arguments about whether it's physically possible to drive that slowly, or safer to do so.


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    #91
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 892 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    To be honest I can't see it making a huge difference to how fast I get around, particularly at peak time.

    Arterial routes like Amiens St will still be 50kph.

    For everywhere else the combination of ramps, parked cars, congestion, cyclists, etc, makes it difficult to go much above 30kph consistently already.


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