Laws Question? Ask here!

Tim Robbins · 16-07-2009 11:35am

Crash wrote: »

So for free kicks once first phase is over its back to normal rules, but in first phase you can't take a drop kick, is that correct?

Absolutely. Now see the reaction in a J4 game or a youth match, when it happens :-)

Crash · 16-07-2009 11:46am

Aye, its like the one about being able to score a try with your feet in touch if you're grounding a ball that has rolled into the try area - that'd be a pain in the hole to enforce at top level, let along amateur.

jumpguy · 27-07-2009 2:01am

I've a question, if you go to clear a ball out of a turned over ruck, but kind of half-fall on the ground (like one knee is on the ground to reach over and grab the ball out of the ball carrier's hands) is that playing on the ground? What is playing on the ground then?

mikedragon32 · 27-07-2009 10:08am

That is playing the ball on the ground. Any attempt to play the ball must be by a player with both feet on the ground.

big neilly · 29-07-2009 7:07am

If the opposition kick the ball, it hits one of your players in the face and bounces forward into your hands are you offside?

curts82 · 29-07-2009 11:47am

Accident offside, scrum

crisco10 · 07-10-2009 6:00pm

This happened in the match in the RDS on saturday:

After a bit of aerial ping pong, Earls kicked the ball from inside his own 22 but mis hit it so it bounced around the Munster 10 yard line. Now luke was running to catch it but it hopped over his head, luke then jumped and reached to catch it. He failed but it did hit his hand (but went backwards off his hand).
Now the ref must have called it a charge down thus meaning all the munster players hanging around the halfway were onside (due to the bout of ping pong that proceded it). The reason i think the ref called it is that all the munster players "woke up" at the same time.

My question is how was it a charge down? Luke was trying to field the kick and failed. if he had caught the ball the munster lads would have been offside surely? So how were all the munster players onside? This worked out as a big advantage to munster as they suddenly had about a 6 on 2 situation. (not that this makes a difference)

oh and the munster players were 10 yards away from where the ball landed (if that matters).

if anybody has the match recorded, it happened just before Munster's period of pressure on the Leinster line before halftime.

Thanking you...

curts82 · 09-10-2009 1:14pm

he played the ball bringing them onside!! The ref wouldn't of called it, it would of being just commen knowledge

Ceartgoleor · 09-10-2009 5:15pm

I remember this incident and remember being puzzled by the referee's decision at the time too. The Munster players in question were surely obliged to retreat when Earls kicked the ball yet failed to do so, so I don't think Luke's playing the ball could have brought them onside, and there was no way Earls had brought them onside by the time they reacted. Think it was simply another error by the ref.

uberwolf · 10-10-2009 6:20pm

I've done a little reading already, and it contradicts what I understood.

I thought that if the referee was playing advantage for a knock on, and the team playing the advantage kicked the ball the advantage was over, whereas if he was playing advantage for a penalty offence then it would be pulled back.

Now what I've read is that the ref has complete discretion as to whether advantage has accrued, irrespective of the nature of the orig offence.

daveharnett · 13-10-2009 7:09pm

Ceartgoleor wrote: »

The Munster players in question were surely obliged to retreat when Earls kicked the ball

There is no obligation to retreat (provided you're not within 10M of where the ball will land). All that is required of an offside player is to keep out of everybody's way and not to move forward.

crisco10 wrote: »

After a bit of aerial ping pong, Earls kicked the ball from inside his own 22 but mis hit it so it bounced around the Munster 10 yard line. Now luke was running to catch it but it hopped over his head, luke then jumped and reached to catch it. He failed but it did hit his hand (but went backwards off his hand)...

how were all the munster players onside?

In this situation, a defender playing the ball (knocking it, passing it, kicking it, or running ~5 meters with it) puts all the kicker's teammates onside.

daveharnett · 13-10-2009 7:18pm

uberwolf wrote: »

I've done a little reading already, and it contradicts what I understood.

I thought that if the referee was playing advantage for a knock on, and the team playing the advantage kicked the ball the advantage was over, whereas if he was playing advantage for a penalty offence then it would be pulled back.

Now what I've read is that the ref has complete discretion as to whether advantage has accrued, irrespective of the nature of the orig offence.

Your last paragraph is correct. Here is why the knock on/penalty have different criteria for advantage.

The penalty for a knock on is a scrum, which means the non-offending scrum half will receive the ball 2m (half the length of a scrum) behind where the offense occurred. So, if the non-offending team gets the ball, doesn't get stuffed immediately, and makes a meter or two, they have 'gained an advantage'.

In the case of a penalty (depending on position) a good kicker can bring play 40 meters down the pitch. So it can take a big positional or tactical gain before a team has 'gained an advantage' by playing on.

daveharnett · 17-10-2009 1:22am

A question about intpretation -
When a scrum half is planning to box kick from the back of a ruck, we regularly see two forwards (from the kicking team) standing on either side of the ruck, in front of the back foot. They make no effort to join it, but they will occasionally put a hand on it. The idea is to make it more difficult for would-be blockers to reach the kicker.

Is this legal, and if so, how? I know that standing offside is fine as long as you don't interfere, but surely they are interfering just by being there?
This happens very regularly at professional levels, and I have never seen a ref pull it.

Podge_irl · 17-10-2009 1:57am

daveharnett wrote: »

A question about intpretation -
When a scrum half is planning to box kick from the back of a ruck, we regularly see two forwards (from the kicking team) standing on either side of the ruck, in front of the back foot. They make no effort to join it, but they will occasionally put a hand on it. The idea is to make it more difficult for would-be blockers to reach the kicker.

Is this legal, and if so, how?

They are what are regularly referred to as "pillars" and no, they're not technically legal. Its a matter of interpretation though, and the vast majority of the time they are let away with it. Just putting your hand on someone in the ruck does not qualify as binding so they're not part of the ruck, yet most definitely ahead of the last foot.They never really get pinged though.

castie · 17-10-2009 5:12pm

If they put a hand on the ruck then there are part of a defensive ruck and legal as far as i know
I thought also that a player does not have to get out of your way, just like with a garryowen, if the kicker was to run into a guy who just stood still then its no penalty.

daveharnett · 17-10-2009 6:31pm

castie wrote: »

If they put a hand on the ruck then there are part of a defensive ruck and legal as far as i know

No they are not part of the ruck - they haven't entered through the gate, and they're not bound to it (binding means shoulder deep, not touching with one finger)

castie wrote: »

I thought also that a player does not have to get out of your way, just like with a garryowen, if the kicker was to run into a guy who just stood still then its no penalty.

In the case of a kick, players can be offside through no fault of their own. AFAIK, if a player is offside through their own fault, it's another story. Think of a lazy runner after a ruck - they are obliged to keep out of the way.

Downtime · 17-10-2009 9:28pm

daveharnett wrote: »

A question about intpretation -
When a scrum half is planning to box kick from the back of a ruck, we regularly see two forwards (from the kicking team) standing on either side of the ruck, in front of the back foot. They make no effort to join it, but they will occasionally put a hand on it. The idea is to make it more difficult for would-be blockers to reach the kicker.

Is this legal, and if so, how? I know that standing offside is fine as long as you don't interfere, but surely they are interfering just by being there?
This happens very regularly at professional levels, and I have never seen a ref pull it.

In law they are offside. Most refs will ask them to move back. They are not bound to it but should be penalized if they prevent the 'attacking' team from accessing the scrum half. It all depends on the materiality of what they do as to whether they are pinged or not.

Munster Blogger · 12-11-2009 8:31pm

Small bit of a complicated question. Some ref allow it some don't

If a team try and set up a maul off a line out and no opposition players join ( to my knowledge this then is technically not a maul )
Is the opposition player then allowed go to the back of the "Maul" and tackle the player with the ball.

Hope that makes sense
Thanks

Downtime · 13-11-2009 9:26am

Munster Blogger wrote: »

Small bit of a complicated question. Some ref allow it some don't

If a team try and set up a maul off a line out and no opposition players join ( to my knowledge this then is technically not a maul )
Is the opposition player then allowed go to the back of the "Maul" and tackle the player with the ball.

Hope that makes sense
Thanks

Yes it is not a maul. The opposition have 4 choices here. 1) Got to the back and tackle the ball carrier assuming the ball is there. 2) Engage at the front and assuming the ball is at the back it is penalisable for offside 3) If the ball carrier is at the front they can tackle him - 1 person only 4) Assuming the ball is at the front they can engage the opposition to form a maul

Munster Blogger · 13-11-2009 11:45am

Downtime wrote: »

Yes it is not a maul. The opposition have 4 choices here. 1) Got to the back and tackle the ball carrier assuming the ball is there. 2) Engage at the front and assuming the ball is at the back it is penalisable for offside 3) If the ball carrier is at the front they can tackle him - 1 person only 4) Assuming the ball is at the front they can engage the opposition to form a maul

Thanks what i thought .Thanks for that, was never sure. Also saw it in the england match, ref got the call wrong and so have alot of others when ive been playing.

Alan_007_ · 28-11-2009 6:36pm

What is the ruling for a mark to be given?I always thought that two feet had to be on the ground but from the match today it doesnt seem so.

Buceph · 28-11-2009 6:49pm

As long as there's a clear catch within the 22, and the catcher calls for it, it's given. If you had to have both feet down, then you'd be at a huge disadvantage.

uberwolf · 28-11-2009 6:51pm

Buceph wrote: »

As long as there's a clear catch within the 22, and the catcher calls for it, it's given. If you had to have both feet down, then you'd be at a huge disadvantage.

I think it used to be the case that you needed planted feet.

Alan_007_ · 28-11-2009 7:28pm

Buceph wrote: »

As long as there's a clear catch within the 22, and the catcher calls for it, it's given. If you had to have both feet down, then you'd be at a huge disadvantage.

Thanks.

castie · 30-11-2009 9:15pm

Sure if hes off the ground and gets hit its a penalty anyway.
So makes sense to give the mark

Guy:Incognito · 03-12-2009 11:02pm

Not sure if this varies between top level rugby and partisipation level (J4)
If theres a ruck right on the try line and you come up behind it, pick the ball and go over it (through the gate), is it a try (assumeing you manage to ground the ball?

irishbucsfan · 04-12-2009 12:27am

Stekelly wrote: »

Not sure if this varies between top level rugby and partisipation level (J4)
If theres a ruck right on the try line and you come up behind it, pick the ball and go over it (through the gate), is it a try (assumeing you manage to ground the ball?

Yes it is. You'd rarely see it though due to modern rucking techniques and blanket defenses at ruck time.

I think a few years back Martin Corry picked the ball and went through a ruck to score against Ireland for England in this manner (The ruck wasn't on the try line, he had to run a fair distance, but the same rules apply). As long as no one is in front of you obstructing any defenders the try should be given.

j4supporter · 09-12-2009 11:33am

I have a question in relation to the above. I know that a scrum half is not allowed dummy a pass from the base of a scrum.

But lets say for example that the number 8 dummied a pick up (left the ball on the ground) and ran from the base of the scrum without making contact with an oppisition player and the SH picked up the ball from where the no.8 was and went the other way.

Is this considered an illegal 'dummy' move or is this legal?

Downtime · 09-12-2009 12:00pm

j4supporter wrote: »

I have a question in relation to the above. I know that a scrum half is not allowed dummy a pass from the base of a scrum.

But lets say for example that the number 8 dummied a pick up (left the ball on the ground) and ran from the base of the scrum without making contact with an oppisition player and the SH picked up the ball from where the no.8 was and went the other way.

Is this considered an illegal 'dummy' move or is this legal?

This is illegal as the No.8 has unbound from the scrum and has not played the ball and should be therefore penalized. Also don't forget that scrum half relates to the player in that position not just the person wearing the number 9 jersey.

Further to this if the number 8 unbinds the opposition scrum half can play the ball. It is likely if the No.8 goes one way he might obstruct the opposition scrum half.

durkadurka · 25-01-2010 10:50pm

Paul o connells sin binning on friday against northampton for hands in the ruck. What precisely was he doing wrong?

davidpfitz · 25-01-2010 11:26pm

durkadurka wrote: »

Paul o connells sin binning on friday against northampton for hands in the ruck. What precisely was he doing wrong?

He handled the ball when the ball was in the ruck - that's not allowed (it briefly was, under the ELVs - but never before, and no more). It contravenes law 16.4.

He was also off his feet and attempting to play the ball, contravening law 15.6.

Not necessarily a yellow in itself, but I think the ref was a bit annoyed with him for what her saw as persistent complaining... so took the opportunity to stamp his authority.

EDIT: http://www.irblaws.com/EN/ has a handy web site which talks you through the laws. There's also a more complete PDF file on http://www.irb.com which has the full text of the laws, and also another text of interpretations - and also official questions and answers from unions!

durkadurka · 26-01-2010 12:00am

Could have sworn he was ON his feet?.... If he was on his feet couldn't he have used his hands to get the ball?

davidpfitz · 26-01-2010 12:17am

durkadurka wrote: »

Could have sworn he was ON his feet?.... If he was on his feet couldn't he have used his hands to get the ball?

Nope. You can't play the ball with your hands in a ruck, even when on your feet. The scrum-half is given special dispensation... Technically, they're breaking the law of the game, but it's allowed as it'd be stupid otherwise!

Downtime · 26-01-2010 9:27am

durkadurka wrote: »

Could have sworn he was ON his feet?.... If he was on his feet couldn't he have used his hands to get the ball?

Only if he was the first player there which he wasn't.

big neilly · 26-01-2010 10:34am

as far as i know tackler or first supporting player allowed hands in aslong as its before ref calls ruck

davidpfitz · 26-01-2010 11:00am

big neilly wrote: »

as far as i know tackler or first supporting player allowed hands in aslong as its before ref calls ruck

That's the 'Jackler' interpretation / protocol ... there's a document on the irb web site which discusses it.

The way the interpretation appears to be, is that the first player on his feet in the tackle zone (i.e. the tackler) may play the ball with his hands. If a ruck forms, he does not have to release it, but no other player may touch it. He can pick it up to form a maul if another player binds on.

NB: Laws questions, and interpretations questions are always very different things!

randomname2005 · 29-01-2010 10:09am

There is also the issue of a ruck vs collapsed maul. A collapsed maul does not become a ruck, a ruck is only formed when the ball is on the ground.

If a player sees the ball in a collapsed maul and picks it out, then surely that is not a problem?

davidpfitz · 29-01-2010 10:12am

prepetualstudnt wrote: »

If a player sees the ball in a collapsed maul and picks it out, then surely that is not a problem?

So long as the player is on their feet, and in an onside position then no - no problem.

Tim Robbins · 02-02-2010 12:18pm

prepetualstudnt wrote: »

There is also the issue of a ruck vs collapsed maul. A collapsed maul does not become a ruck, a ruck is only formed when the ball is on the ground.

If a player sees the ball in a collapsed maul and picks it out, then surely that is not a problem?

If a maul goes to ground (because it is not collapsed) the ball must be played immediately otherwise its turnover ball.

If there's some award fall, the defensive team still need to comply with usual breakdown law - i.e. roll away etc.

j4supporter · 05-02-2010 11:55am

What is the issue with the no.8 locking down in the scrum behind the 2nd rows and then once the ball is put in, moving to behind the flanker and the 2nd row?

Is this allowed? Not allowed?

Is it possible to do it at all levels from AIL to J4. Seen different things happen around this.

randomname2005 · 05-02-2010 1:37pm

j4supporter wrote: »

What is the issue with the no.8 locking down in the scrum behind the 2nd rows and then once the ball is put in, moving to behind the flanker and the 2nd row?

Is this allowed? Not allowed?

Is it possible to do it at all levels from AIL to J4. Seen different things happen around this.

AFAIK it is not allowed, they are technically breaking from the scrum. Number 8 must have an arm completly touching a lock to the level of the armpit, and this would be quite difficult to retain when moving from between the 2nd rows to between 2nd row and flanker. But, I do think it is ok to move before the ball comes in.

shaunhulme · 07-02-2010 11:31pm

Is it only a ruck when the ref calls it or when there is 2 or more at a breakdown, ie tackle:D

Podge_irl · 08-02-2010 12:04am

I presume you mean a ruck rather than a maul. A ruck is only formed when there is one attacker, one defender and a third player from either team. But its all up to the ref's judgement ultimately.

Tim Robbins · 08-02-2010 4:09pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I presume you mean a ruck rather than a maul. A ruck is only formed when there is one attacker, one defender and a third player from either team. But its all up to the ref's judgement ultimately.

Ruck is formed when there is a player from each team contesting for the ball on the ground. It begins as soon as the players contact each other and are bound on to each other.

Maul is formed when there is two attackers and one defender and the attackers are carrying the ball.

The ref never has to call ruck or maul. The only reason why they do it is to remind players it is a ruck and to obey the ruck law so that the game keeps moving and there are less penalties. Or they just like the sound of their own voice!

JustinDee · 08-02-2010 4:29pm

j4supporter wrote: »

What is the issue with the no.8 locking down in the scrum behind the 2nd rows and then once the ball is put in, moving to behind the flanker and the 2nd row?

Is this allowed? Not allowed?

Is it possible to do it at all levels from AIL to J4. Seen different things happen around this.

Once the ball leaves the halfback's hands (ie. is fed), the nr8 must stay bound in same channel til they leave the scrum or scrum ends. They can bind between lock and flanker or lock and lock but must remain there. They may not change bind-channel mid-scrum

At U19 level below, only permitted to bind between lock and lock.

Brayruit · 08-02-2010 7:20pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Maul is formed when there is two attackers and one defender and the attackers are carrying the ball.

Doesn't the defender have to be bound?

If no defender is bound, can a defender tackle the ball carrier and hence pull down the 'maul'?

Tim Robbins · 08-02-2010 9:14pm

Brayruit wrote: »

Doesn't the defender have to be bound?

Yes

If no defender is bound, can a defender tackle the ball carrier and hence pull down the 'maul'?

Yes

Brayruit · 09-02-2010 10:34am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes

Yes

Thanks... so taking this further then, does the following make sense?

If the attacking team forms what is intended to be a maul (e.g. after taking the ball down from a line out) and starts moving the ball forward, and if the defending team does not 'co-operate' in that no defender binds with another player...

1) All defenders can try to tackle the ball carrier from any angle

2) If a non ball carrying attacker is bound to the intended maul and is hence in the way of an intended tackle on the ball carrier, the attacker is offside and is penalised

?

Tim Robbins · 09-02-2010 11:09am

Brayruit wrote: »

Thanks... so taking this further then, does the following make sense?

If the attacking team forms what is intended to be a maul (e.g. after taking the ball down from a line out) and starts moving the ball forward, and if the defending team does not 'co-operate' in that no defender binds with another player...

1) All defenders can try to tackle the ball carrier from any angle

Yes. But they need to cute on how they do this. If they bind onto the upper body of the ball carrier - by definition they have started a maul so they can't.

2) If a non ball carrying attacker is bound to the intended maul and is hence in the way of an intended tackle on the ball carrier, the attacker is offside and is penalised

?

Yes. You are right there.

The IRB did some rulings on this. I'll dig them up at lunch and post them.

shaunhulme · 10-02-2010 9:11pm

Is the ball out of the scrum once the scrum-half places his hands on the ball or is it when he plays the ball. Can he put his hands on and wait until he is ready to pass?

Laws Question? Ask here!

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