Laws Question? Ask here!

Losty Dublin · 31-03-2021 9:55pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

Yellow card is the middle ground though, and one that works well for all concerned from Mini's through schools and up to International games. Granted some calls will appear unclear at times to us but all things being equal we are talking about a call that is made by up to 4 experienced officials, all who have video playback to aid them. I can't see any benefit in having another card that may be used to remove players temporarily from the game beyond that of Yellow.

Lost Ormond · 31-03-2021 10:06pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

A yellow is a middle ground though. You have penalty, penalty and yellow, penalty and red.
There will always be discrepancies in interpretation on many issues even by most experienced officials as 1 theyre humans and 2 thats part of the game

Lost Ormond · 31-03-2021 10:07pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

A yellow is a middle ground though. You have penalty, penalty and yellow, penalty and red.
There will always be discrepancies in interpretation on many issues even by most experienced officials as 1 theyre humans and 2 thats part of the game

dregin · 31-03-2021 10:13pm

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

31-03-2021 10:26pm

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Bazzo · 31-03-2021 10:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Happened in the France Wales 6 nations match that went well over 80 mins a few years back I think

sydthebeat · 31-03-2021 10:34pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

There was a game between France and Wales a couple of years ago where a prop was yellowed after 80 mins.... And ended up being able to come back on before the final whistle as the game didn't end until 100 mins

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/story-farcical-100-minute-france-15760803.amp

31-03-2021 11:34pm

dregin wrote: »

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

Are you thinking about awarding a penalty to the try scoring team? That's taken from half way line. Don't see it much though

Yeah_Right · 31-03-2021 11:48pm

Ben Bailey wrote: »

It seems to me that the underlying rationale behind the sometimes lengthy considerations between the match officials regarding sanctionable offences is an awareness of the considerable gap between YC and RC. It might assist match officials to have a middle ground sanction.
We've all witnessed striking discrepancies in interpretation by experienced officials.

I think I get what you're saying and I agree. A lot of the red cards these days are for bad timing or a slight mistake in technique. And these can have a massive impact on a game. I get why they are being sanctioned but pro rugby is entertainment and matches can get ruined by red cards.

In NZ they brought in a rule that a red card results in the team being a man down for 20 minutes then a replacement comes on but the sent off player can't return. I like this.

But I would also be happy to have another sanction where clear foul play (punching, kicking, gouging, biting etc) is a permanent reduction to 14. As long as both types of sending offs can result in suspension and fines then behaviours and techniques will change without ruining matches.

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 12:30am

dregin wrote: »

Wasn't it the case at some stage that if a foul occurred in the act of scoring a try, the scoring team took the restart? Could have sworn that was a thing, but definitely went out the window last week.

Still is the case. If an incident occurs after a try has been awarded the ref can award a penalty on halfway against the infringing side.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a bit of an edge case but where someone gets a yellow with under 10 minutes to go are they allowed back on if there's a break after the 80 minute mark? I'm sure I remember someone coming back on after 80 minutes when his team was defending (and gave up a couple of penalties) which seems a bit lucky.

Yes they can return if the sin bin period ends before the game is over

01-04-2021 12:52am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Yes they can return if the sin bin period ends before the game is over

Might be a simple enough law to change. It's not a common occurrence but it seems like a team can gain an extra advantage by conceding a penalty when time's up.

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 12:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

Might be a simple enough law to change. It's not a common occurrence but it seems like a team can gain an extra advantage by conceding a penalty when time's up.

Why does it have to change? What benefit is there to change the law?

01-04-2021 1:36am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Why does it have to change? What benefit is there to change the law?

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 2:48am

Deleted User wrote: »

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

And? The game ends when the ball goes dead next after the 60/70/80 minutes are up(depending on the level)

A team doesnt gain anything from conceding a penalty in this case.

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 9:04am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because the only way a player can return to the field is a defending team concedes a free kick/penalty.
You're up 6 points, down to 14 men, clock is in the red, defending around your 22. Under serious pressure but no penalties conceded yet. Concede a tactical one and you're back up to 15 men.

No your not.

Conceding a penalty is not making the ball dead, thus a sin binned player cannot rejoin

Losty Dublin · 01-04-2021 10:41am

Correct Syd. The only way for the player to return is after the ball has been played dead or when time is stopped by the referee, which may well be to admonish the offending team. If a tactical penalty was committed a new yellow may well be issued, which naturally would negate any such benefit.

01-04-2021 1:55pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

No your not.

Conceding a penalty is not making the ball dead, thus a sin binned player cannot rejoin

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

backcamslua · 01-04-2021 2:08pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

Lads ye weren't watching Wayne Barnes in action Wales V France from a number of years ago -Welsh prop (Samson Lee from memory) was yellow carded in 82nd minute -returned to play @92min -game finished around 100mins -and Barnes continues to ref at international level -I kid u not!

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 2:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So how do sinbinned players come back on? Is it only dead when the attacking team put it out for a lineout?

its not 'dead' when the attacking team put it out for a line out off a penalty (as per your question)... that is the point.

think about it like this... the play between the penalty being kicked to touch and been thrown back in is considered to be still "open play"

thats why a penalty can be kicked to touch after the clock has gone into the red

otherwise a player can come back on when the ball goes dead ie the ref blows his whistle to stop the play for whatever reason ie knock on, foul play etc

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 2:12pm

backcamslua wrote: »

Lads ye weren't watching Wayne Barnes in action Wales V France from a number of years ago -Welsh prop (Samson Lee from memory) was yellow carded in 82nd minute -returned to play @92min -game finished around 100mins -and Barnes continues to ref at international level -I kid u not!

see 12 posts up

01-04-2021 2:16pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

its not 'dead' when the attacking team put it out for a line out off a penalty (as per your question)... that is the point.

think about it like this... the play between the penalty being kicked to touch and been thrown back in is considered to be still "open play"

thats why a penalty can be kicked to touch after the clock has gone into the red

otherwise a player can come back on when the ball goes dead ie the ref blows his whistle to stop the play for whatever reason ie knock on, foul play etc

Right so, back to my original point, I just think it'd be better that once 80 minutes are on the clock no-one can come back on. Since the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty.

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 3:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Right so, back to my original point, I just think it'd be better that once 80 minutes are on the clock no-one can come back on. Since the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty.

the attacking team arent absolved from giving away penalties either.

01-04-2021 3:57pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the attacking team arent absolved from giving away penalties either.

If the attacking team are ahead they'll kick it out.
If the attacking team are behind and give away a penalty then the final whistle is blown then no?

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 4:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If the attacking team are ahead they'll kick it out.
If the attacking team are behind and give away a penalty then the final whistle is blown then no?

no.. the defending team, the team ahead, still have to tap the ball and then kick it dead.

the point im making is that youve said

the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty

and i was just showing you that thats not correct.

in the case of Samson Lee coming back on in that game... france had a penalty and decided to scrum. If they had have chosen to tap and go then Lee wouldnt have been back on the pitch. So its arguable that it was the attacking teams decision which allowed the defender back onto the pitch.

i do agree that clarification should be given on the situation (maybe it already has?)... but i dont agree that there should be a blanket ban on a player returning just because the clock has gone red.

what if the winning team and down to 14.. need a TBP ... whats stopping them fouling and getting their player back on the pitch... knowing the losing team arent going to kick the ball dead?

It happens so rarely anyway.... i cant actually recall any similar situation

blackwhite · 01-04-2021 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Right so, back to my original point, I just think it'd be better that once 80 minutes are on the clock no-one can come back on. Since the only way the ball can be dead but the game not over is for the defending team to give away a penalty.

Not correct

If the referee stops the clock after giving a penalty then someone can come on. He might need to stop the clock to allow an injured player get attention, to speak to a captain, or for a number of other reasons.

blackwhite · 01-04-2021 4:27pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

It happens so rarely anyway.... i cant actually recall any similar situation

How often can you think of a situation where a team manages to retain possession for 10 minutes without turning the ball over, knocking it on, infringing at a ruck or getting knocked into touch. Never mind all of this being after 80 minutes of play with fatigued players.

It's a complete edge case that doesn't really warrant any change in the laws

Miley Byrne · 01-04-2021 4:32pm

Can a quick lineout be taken by the attacking team from their own penalty? Say for example the attacking team have a penalty in the corner on the 5M line. They kick to the corner where their wily scrumhalf (or anyone) collects the ball and immediately throws the ball to the waiting backline?

I assume a quick lineout is not permissible from your own touchfinder.

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 4:42pm

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Can a quick lineout be taken by the attacking team from their own penalty? Say for example the attacking team have a penalty in the corner on the 5M line. They kick to the corner where their wily scrumhalf (or anyone) collects the ball and immediately throws the ball to the waiting backline?

I assume a quick lineout is not permissible from your own touchfinder.

I think a player needs the refs permission to deliberately leave the field of play....

Don't they?

Law 6.7

dregin · 01-04-2021 4:43pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Still is the case. If an incident occurs after a try has been awarded the ref can award a penalty on halfway against the infringing side.

Is the same to be said for a high tackle as the try is scored or is itnonly activity after the ball's been touched down?

sydthebeat · 01-04-2021 4:45pm

blackwhite wrote: »

How often can you think of a situation where a team manages to retain possession for 10 minutes without turning the ball over, knocking it on, infringing at a ruck or getting knocked into touch. Never mind all of this being after 80 minutes of play with fatigued players.

It's a complete edge case that doesn't really warrant any change in the laws

i think buttonftws point still applies if someone was binned in say, the 71st minute... can come back on in the 81st minute ie anytime after the clock goes red

Lost Ormond · 01-04-2021 5:14pm

Miley Byrne wrote: »

Can a quick lineout be taken by the attacking team from their own penalty? Say for example the attacking team have a penalty in the corner on the 5M line. They kick to the corner where their wily scrumhalf (or anyone) collects the ball and immediately throws the ball to the waiting backline?

I assume a quick lineout is not permissible from your own touchfinder.

It technically could happen but no good ref would allow it to. Management of situation would stop that.

dregin wrote: »

Is the same to be said for a high tackle as the try is scored or is itnonly activity after the ball's been touched down?

A try is scored when the attacking player grounds the ball, and any foul play that occurs after that can result in a PK on halfway
If ball hasnt been grounded then it isnt a try so cant be a penalty on halfway for something thats happened before a try is scofred

Shelflife · 01-04-2021 5:45pm

For the record I think that you are all giving teams waaaaayyyyy too much credit to come up with these scenarios in order to get a player back onto the pitch.

At amateur level they hardly know the basic laws never mind the minute details that you are all going on about (interesting as it is) at the pro level you can see from the game management in some of the recent matches that such thinking is beyond them and I doubt that many of them are any ways knowledgeable about the laws.

Ive seen a player, his team down to 14 and they score a try just at HT , he dropped kicked the ball over the bar instead of taking the full 90secs after the try and run down the YC clock, thats a simple case and they couldnt work it out.

Another team in a final scored with 60secs left on the clock to take a 2 point lead. Kicker asks me how long left I told him 30secs at this stage. He then quickly took the kick, so we had to have a restart, even when they took the restart kick they still played on which almost caught me out as I just assumed they would kick it off the pitch.

Tactics and basic law knowledge is something that it sadly lacking in the game at all levels !

Richie_Rich89 · 01-04-2021 6:33pm

If you were running with the ball and managed to get a defender to turn his back to you are you allowed to push him over?

Pussyhands · 01-04-2021 6:35pm

If someone is taking a penalty kick to touch and it bounces in field first, whose lineout is it?

blackwhite · 01-04-2021 6:42pm

Pussyhands wrote: »

If someone is taking a penalty kick to touch and it bounces in field first, whose lineout is it?

Bounce doesn't matter, it's still the kicking team's throw.

Sometimes see it where a penalty is taken quickly with wingers/full back out of position where the kicker looks to get every possible inch from it

Quin_Dub · 01-04-2021 8:30pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

If you were running with the ball and managed to get a defender to turn his back to you are you allowed to push him over?

Technically , yes - You are the ball carrier and you are entitled to push past a defender regardless of the direction they are facing.

06-04-2021 1:23pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

If you were running with the ball and managed to get a defender to turn his back to you are you allowed to push him over?

To supplement the above answer, with which I don't disagree:

(a) Law 9, Foul Play. 9.24 A ball-carrier is permitted to hand off an opponent provided excessive force is not used.

(b) Definitions: Hand-off: A permitted action, taken by a ball-carrier to fend off an opponent, using the palm of the hand.

As you can see, the hand-off is permissible "to fend off an opponent". I believe most refs would give a lot of latitude - the fact that an opponent is close enough to make physical contact with your hand would generally entitle you to fend them off. It would not concern me unduly that the player had turned his back to you as you both maneuvred - presumably he is twisting and turning in the attempt to get to grips with you or is in any event in your way as the ball-carrier. You are entitled to push them away using a permissible hand-off (palm of the hand, no excessive force).

However, you can't just shove him to the ground gratuitously. I would emphasise that if he's close enough to touch he's probably fair game for a hand-off though. You are not expected to "wait" for him to get into position or whatever.

If this had an effect on play, e.g. if a ball-carrier gratutitously pushed an opponent over who was clearly trying to get into position to mark another player's run versus tackle the ball player, I would strongly consider a penalty for obstruction. Even more so, obviously, if the ball-carrier then off-loaded to another player who the obstructed player might have been able to tackle.

But the ball carrier is entitled to quite literally fend other players off - that means they can clear them out of their way to make progress themselves, using the hand off. If that's what's happening that's fine.

When ball-carriers do something illegal in this area it tends to be more of a grasping/pulling actions - grabbing at the non-ball carrier and hauling them down as the ball carrier is tackled even where the opponent so grabbed is not trying to be part of the tackle. This is usually reasonably obvious

I think it would be much harder to identify as obstruction where a pushing action is used and penalties should be awarded for clear and obvious offences only. Certainly, unless the push resulted in the pushed player going to ground, I would expect little or no impact on play, so play on.

awec · 06-04-2021 1:41pm

I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?

06-04-2021 1:58pm

awec wrote: »

I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?

I can see it happening where there is some twisting and turning and the defender so ends up momentarily facing away with both players in motion. The defender might be running back tracking the ball carrier and another attacker, all players in motion and is somewhat going between the two attackers, again turning/orientating their body one way and the other as they do. If the ball-carrier e.g. dummies, the defender might end up facing away from the ball carrier and facing the other player.

You could also see it where the ball-carrier checks and the defender has come across and goes past them, again showing their back or primarily that aspect/orientation to the attacker.

Miley Byrne · 06-04-2021 5:15pm

awec wrote: »

I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?

James Lowe is an expert at this :pac:

Sangre · 06-04-2021 6:46pm

awec wrote: »

I would think it's an unlikely scenario as turning your back on an advancing ball carrier close enough for them to be able to fend you off is likely to be quite dangerous, no?

An unlikely but very possible scenario is two players (one attacking and one defending) running back for the same ball which has been kicked through with the defending player winning the foot race. However, the ball lands and bounces back over the defending player's into the hands of the chasing opposition who now has a lovely target of the defending player's back.

Bazzo · 11-04-2021 2:04pm

How long is it going to take before all tacklers start bending at the hips do you reckon? It's becoming a bit of a spectator shambles at the minute watching 15-20 mins of slowmo replays every match. Is there a simpler way for world rugby to make sure the tackler is never going into a tackle upright as that always seems to be causing the issue.

Shelflife · 11-04-2021 5:03pm

It'll be a slow process but we will get there.

How many tackles in the air do you see nowadays ? and the same with spear tackles. Both effectively red carded out of the game.

The same will happen with the tackle height.

Trojan · 13-04-2021 10:07am

Shelflife wrote: »

It'll be a slow process but we will get there.

How many tackles in the air do you see nowadays ? and the same with spear tackles. Both effectively red carded out of the game.

The same will happen with the tackle height.

It will eventually go that way once we get refs to be more consistent - outliers like Mathieu Raynal need to be smacked down by the ref authorities.

25-04-2021 2:49pm

Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

Captain_Crash · 25-04-2021 2:58pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

They’re trialing it in the Rainbow Cup also, I’m not a fan of it!

Lost Ormond · 25-04-2021 3:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

Probably should but reducing scrums in some places could be a good thing.
What different outcomes would you have for each scenario?

sydthebeat · 25-04-2021 3:39pm

Anything that encourages play to be more open and space orientated should be a positive in my opinion

Squidgy Black · 25-04-2021 4:53pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Saw there that Super Rugby have goal line dropouts for grounding the ball in goal, knock-on in goal and for attacking teams getting held up over the line. Those seem like 3 scenarios that should have very different outcomes surely?

Idea is to try and encourage more attacking rugby and reduce the number of scrums to keep the ball in play longer.

Grounding the ball in goal leading to a goal line drop out as opposed to a 22 encourages the attacking team to try kick through a bit more and doesn't reset play back in the attacking teams half.

Knock-on in goal is pretty much just removing the scrum and allowing the defensive team an easy exit from an attacking situation.

Held up rewards the defensive team as they're not facing another tight 5m scrum, but also gives the attacking team another chance to run it back by creating a bit more space. Would also discourage some of the constant pick and go in tight spaces for fear of being held up

BoardsMember · 28-04-2021 10:18pm

Just watching re-run of the Dragons v Scarlets game in Rainbow Cup. Scarlets first try, turnover the commentators are calling a rip in the tackle. But the tackled player was on the ground, on his back. They don't show the angle that clearly shows this in this clip: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4iea_mfip2k

But a fella running back from the Dragons side of the ball rips the ball from the player on that ground. Presume that should be a penalty?

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