Rent costs breaking records

Wibbs · 12-11-2018 4:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Take learning to drive as 1 example.. some older people were just given licenses and allowed to drive. A young person today will have to do a theory test, at least 12 driving lessons and still can't drive legally until they pass a test that is challenging to pass with a waiting list of 4 or 5 months currently. Then you get hit with car insurance, could be a few grand a year with your no claims.

Save for truly ancient people who lived at a time you could walk in and get a licence, or the ones who got a full licence on the back of having a third provisional for a time in the early 80's(backlog issue then too IIRC), not that much has changed. OK you didn't have to do twelve lessons, but when I did my test in the late 80's there was a theory test, the test itself was challenging too(good, there are already more wooden headed drivers on the road than on the golf course) and insurance was crazy money back then too. I remember figures of 1500 to 2000 pounds for young drivers back then. The Irish insurance setup was always a PITA. So no, things have not changed that much on that score at least.

whisky_galore · 12-11-2018 4:16pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm curious what will happen all those 'renters for life' when they hit pension age?

How the fcuk will they be able to afford to pay their rent then?

File under 'erra shur it'll be grand' like everything else.

No planning, no long or even medium term thinking. Just reacting too late to everything.

Squatman · 12-11-2018 4:18pm

Berserker wrote: »

We desperately need quality apartments, not the garbage that builders here throw up.

.

Where do you expect apartments to come from if not "builders"?

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 4:21pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

(What’s small minded about the comment)

2% is nothing. Insignificant. Many accidental landlords are selling up because they are out of negative equity.

Not because landlords in general aren’t taking in more money.

Of course they are, why are they doing that if the market is so good? Why not stay in and ride this current good fortune for a bit? The answer is becuase being a LL in the current legislative climate is a mugs game unless you're a REIT that can absorb deadbeat tenants not paying rent by passing the loss on.

KevinCavan · 12-11-2018 4:23pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Fcuked if I can figure out how people can afford to rent in Dublin.

Renting in Cork at the moment and paying Dublin prices.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 4:29pm

On quality of apartments - while it needs to be dry and properly insulated, including from sound, we need to relax the building standards not increase them. You're never going to get Irish people to live in 1 and 2 bed apartments long term. They should be cheap starter homes, or cheap rental units until one can afford a house. As for storage either rent a unit or don't hoard so much ****e.

22michael44 · 12-11-2018 4:30pm

i'm really suspicious about the common-ness of 'deadbeat tenants not paying rent' or it 'taking 2 years to evict non-paying tenants'. i've lived in about 30 rentals and it doesn't happen. you pay your rent or you're gone.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 4:34pm

22michael44 wrote: »

i'm really suspicious about the common-ness of 'deadbeat tenants not paying rent' or it 'taking 2 years to evict non-paying tenants'. i've lived in about 30 rentals and it doesn't happen. you pay your rent or you're gone.

It does happen and there are a cohort of people that know how to game the system. If you stopped paying rent and were illegally evicted you'd be looking at 5 figure damages, which in some cases is the better alternative to the court route.

I'm suspicious of 30 rentals tbh - unless you're talking about renting rooms to which a completely different set of rules apply, hence why there are suggestions in A&P to try and make people licencees rather than tenants.

22michael44 · 12-11-2018 4:35pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It does happen and there are a cohort of people that know how to game the system. If you stopped paying rent and were illegally evicted you'd be looking at 5 figure damages, which in some cases is the better alternative to the court route.

I'm suspicious of 30 rentals tbh - unless you're talking about renting rooms to which a completely different set of rules apply, hence why there are suggestions in A&P to try and make people licencees rather than tenants.

i was talking about renting rooms, sorry. misunderstanding.

12-11-2018 4:36pm

22michael44 wrote: »

i think these generational arguments are really silly. the ability to buy a house isn't the be all and end all decider of life quality. especially for single schmucks like myself who don't really want to be tied to an address for 40 years. things suck at the moment but i'd much rather be around now than have been born in the 60's or whatever. climate catastrophe notwithstanding.

edit: it's also really self-absorbed to think you have it worse than any other generation, imho

Its more the lack of understanding and acknowledgement that is frustrating.

How many younger people have heard something like "Sure when I was your age I had my own house, car and i was married with 2 children"

xckjoo · 12-11-2018 4:36pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

On quality of apartments - while it needs to be dry and properly insulated, including from sound, we need to relax the building standards not increase them. You're never going to get Irish people to live in 1 and 2 bed apartments long term. They should be cheap starter homes, or cheap rental units until one can afford a house. As for storage either rent a unit or don't hoard so much ****e.

Them not being dry and properly insulated are the problems though. They can't even be arsed doing that right so what's left to relax control on? Safety? Longevity? Fixtures?

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 4:38pm

22michael44 wrote: »

i was talking about renting rooms, sorry. misunderstanding.

Don't pay there and you're gone you're absolutely right. A similar system needs to be brought in for tenants where within 90 days you have the sheriff there evicting people for non-payment.

I'm perfectly willing to accpet that people might need to go onto HAP due to a loss of a job etc. but the cohort of can-pay, won't-pay need to face some sort of sanction.

JustMe,K · 12-11-2018 4:38pm

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Not really . Renters for life will no longer working so their means will be roughly the same

Their rent wont change unless its linked to their income though? A person on HAP who's income goes down where their payment is a %age of their income, will have their payment reduced accordingly. The private renter will still be expected to come up with the full amount until such time as they try to get onto whatever assistance scheme is then available.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 4:39pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Them not being dry and properly insulated are the problems though. They can't even be arsed doing that right so what's left to relax control on? Safety? Longevity? Fixtures?

Relax on aspect and size. I've a tiger era apartment that has a decent BER, actually warm in winter, doesn't suffer from damp and has a well run OMC. It's perfectly possible to build decent blocks to a budget.

Boom_Bap · 12-11-2018 4:40pm

Up the Dubs.

#1 on another list!

xckjoo · 12-11-2018 4:42pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Relax on aspect and size. I've a tiger era apartment that has a decent BER, actually warm in winter, doesn't suffer from damp and has a well run OMC. It's perfectly possible to build decent blocks to a budget.

Ah I get you now. I'd just be worried that we'd end up with them being small, damp and cold though

listermint · 12-11-2018 4:46pm

But there is no return on investment for Landlords, We are told that thousands are exiting the game because they simply cant get a return.

Look at the Accommodation forum, you have landlords with tales of woe of exiting the game because its just not there.

(note this is not a landlord blame, but just calling bollox on what many say, you wont see them implementing their words and selling up)

xckjoo · 12-11-2018 4:51pm

listermint wrote: »

But there is no return on investment for Landlords, We are told that thousands are exiting the game because they simply cant get a return.

Look at the Accommodation forum, you have landlords with tales of woe of exiting the game because its just not there.

(note this is not a landlord blame, but just calling bollox on what many say, you wont see them implementing their words and selling up)

Do we know where the money is going? Renters claim they're losing a fortune, landlords claim they're losing a fortune, potential buyers claim they can't even afford to buy (using "claim" here to not start any more rows). The money must be going somewhere because it's definitely being spent.

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 4:58pm

listermint wrote: »

But there is no return on investment for Landlords, We are told that thousands are exiting the game because they simply cant get a return.

Look at the Accommodation forum, you have landlords with tales of woe of exiting the game because its just not there.

(note this is not a landlord blame, but just calling bollox on what many say, you wont see them implementing their words and selling up)

xckjoo wrote: »

Do we know where the money is going? Renters claim they're losing a fortune, landlords claim they're losing a fortune, potential buyers claim they can't even afford to buy (using "claim" here to not start any more rows). The money must be going somewhere because it's definitely being spent.

It goes on tax which is another reason REITs will take over, they pay very little tax. At the moment the rental sector is massively proping up the likes of HAP and other benefits. There is an easy solution to this crisis for renters, simply make rent tax deductable (for tenants) brings down the cost of rent between around 20% and 54%+.

We simply can't afford to do that though.

In addition many small time LL's won't invest unless the asset pays for itself. Realistically, and I say this as a LL, profit isn't the issue - cashflow is. Cashflow is paramount as you never know when you're going to be landed with a deadbeat for a year or more and get stung for legal fees.

Edit: Many LL's are selling up hence why, even though REITs buy at a huge rate, RTB registrations are down.

mammajamma · 12-11-2018 5:01pm

The rent situation is disgraceful. Shameful.

I pointed out in another thread some of the very real reasons that explain why it is the way it is.

Thread was locked. That's says a lot.

Run along you little scamps, don't think about anything and keep grinding.

The sooner this whole sh*tshow hits the fan, the better. It all needs to be taken down with a wrecking ball, because you wont be allowed do anything about it otherwise, never mind simply talk. Of course you can point out the obvious, but never, ever, dare to seek reasoning behind it all.

Like fooking cavemen staring at an eclipse, in awe and wonder and fear. But stone anyone with explanations. Neanderthals.

El_Duderino 09 · 12-11-2018 5:04pm

cordy1969 wrote: »

I said I grew up on one yes, my family purchased it because thats all we could afford. There was no government help or handout so what was your point?

So the government built the estate to help solve the problem of supply. And gave cheaper rent to tackle the problem of rent. And sold it to your parents for a good price.

You can’t see any government help there?

Dravokivich · 12-11-2018 5:10pm

cordy1969 wrote: »

The average married couple with no children with both partners working.

Average wage lets say $40k each

69100 taxed at 20% = 55280 annual
10900 Taxed at 40% = 6540 annual

Total income for married couple = 61820 annual

Nice Rental = 1800 p/m x 12 = 21600
Living comfortably weekly expenses = 1000 x12 = 12000
Emergency fund = 400 x 12 = 4800

Total expenditure = 38400

Total Balance left over for a deposit = 23420

Current Mortgage 3.5 x gross wage = 280,000

Deposit required 20% = 56000

So in approx 30 months living very comfortably, you can save a deposit whilst still living comfortably and be a home owner within 30 months.

Can anyone explain to me why that is so hard? Now bearing in mind I have been more than generous with living expenses.

Not interested in single people's theories etc. As most people don't buy a house until they are married or in a relationship. There are exceptions of course and a single person earning a nice wage could also afford it reasonably easy.

It's great when you can make up the numbers so your maths works out.

xckjoo · 12-11-2018 5:11pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It goes on tax which is another reason REITs will take over, they pay very little tax. At the moment the rental sector is massively proping up the likes of HAP and other benefits. There is an easy solution to this crisis for renters, simply make rent tax deductable (for tenants) brings down the cost of rent between around 20% and 54%+.

We simply can't afford to do that though.

In addition many small time LL's won't invest unless the asset pays for itself. Realistically, and I say this as a LL, profit isn't the issue - cashflow is. Cashflow is paramount as you never know when you're going to be landed with a deadbeat for a year or more and get stung for legal fees.

Ya regular people are never going to have the same cashflow as the likes of REITs. Really can't see them doing anything more than making the situation worse.

Would removing the tax not just cause landlords to increase the price? Genuine question. Not a landlord, renter or buyer so out-of-touch with everything

Ray Palmer · 12-11-2018 5:13pm

Moonjet wrote: »

The vast majority of the voting population are property owners, a lot without a mortgage, some even landlords. This doesn't impact them in any negative way so they don't care if rents are hitting new all time highs every year, it even benefits some of them. Government policy usually favours the majority so I wouldn't hold my breath for this situation changing any time soon. The only time actual change happens is external factors beyond government control (e.g. 2008-2012 world recession).

Yes somehow once somebody owns a property and we sever all connections to friends and family. The vast majority of people don't want a housing crisis. There really isn't anybody that wants one no matter what conspiracy theories you hear.

The government did what the majority wanted when they added taxes and expenses to landlords. Rent caps again a majority led idea. These things made it worse for investing in rentals and added risk to investment, what other tax would they bring in? So they let REITs in who pay a lot less tax. The public wants the small landlords gone and that is what is happening. Once that happens the regulations can be really bad on landlords as it will be big companies. Of course the big companies might have better lobbying powers and just never pay as much tax

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 5:13pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Would removing the tax not just cause landlords to increase the price? Genuine question. Not a landlord, renter or buyer so out-of-touch with everything

IF caps were enforced properly it shouldn't allow current LLs to simply up the price. We can't stop the upward trend though as REITs buy new and set the price at the 'market' rate which is invaribly higher than the current rents in the area. They can do this through added value such as a gym on site.

KevinCavan · 12-11-2018 5:14pm

Does the government give a fcuk is what I’d like to know? Does the government care if average rents rise by €100 or €200 in the next 8 months?

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 5:15pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Does the government give a fcuk is what I’d like to know? Does the government care if average rents rise by €100 or €200 in the next 8 months?

They're counting on it IMO. More rent = more tax take.

KevinCavan · 12-11-2018 5:16pm

I’m personally getting the fook out of here once my current lease is up

xckjoo · 12-11-2018 5:18pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yes somehow once somebody owns a property and we sever all connections to friends and family. The vast majority of people don't want a housing crisis. There really isn't anybody that wants one no matter what conspiracy theories you hear.

The government did what the majority wanted when they added taxes and expenses to landlords. Rent caps again a majority led idea. These things made it worse for investing in rentals and added risk to investment, what other tax would they bring in? So they let REITs in who pay a lot less tax. The public wants the small landlords gone and that is what is happening. Once that happens the regulations can be really bad on landlords as it will be big companies. Of course the big companies might have better lobbying powers and just never pay as much tax

The government should be making the decisions for our long-term benefit and not trying to jump to every tune they hear, but they seem to have forgotten that.
Have the REITs provided any benefit since they came in?

mammajamma · 12-11-2018 5:19pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Does the government give a fcuk is what I’d like to know? Does the government care if average rents rise by €100 or €200 in the next 8 months?

Not in the slightest. For how many years now, YEARS, have they been talking and talking and talking? And here we are, another record.

They simply do not care. There is only so far you can attribute stupidity before it becomes directed intent.

They want this.

And they wont care when it comes crumbling down around them, because they'll be off to hide in some cushy number elsewhere. Theyre sorted, and the average person is simply a nuisance to drain money and labour from ad infinitum.

Oh and the not=worth=mentioning fact that a bunch of them are landlords and directly tied to property investment and the sell-off of public assets through NAMA. That's not worth paying attention to at all.

The pyramid scheme of the century.

whisky_galore · 12-11-2018 5:22pm

KevinCavan wrote: »

Does the government give a fcuk is what I’d like to know? Does the government care if average rents rise by €100 or €200 in the next 8 months?

The govt will only react if there's a mass backlash a la Irish Water, which won't happen as the rise in rents and house prices suit a great many people and those with a house already won't really care.

cordy1969 · 12-11-2018 5:23pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So the government built the estate to help solve the problem of supply. And gave cheaper rent to tackle the problem of rent. And sold it to your parents for a good price.

You can’t see any government help there?

No I can't , please enlighten me with your years of wisdom. Explain how a private buyer paying market price for a property is by anyway receiving help from the government.

mammajamma · 12-11-2018 5:23pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

They're counting on it IMO. More rent = more tax take.

Jesus, if it were only that innocent you could almost forgive it!

listermint · 12-11-2018 5:24pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

It goes on tax which is another reason REITs will take over, they pay very little tax. At the moment the rental sector is massively proping up the likes of HAP and other benefits. There is an easy solution to this crisis for renters, simply make rent tax deductable (for tenants) brings down the cost of rent between around 20% and 54%+.

We simply can't afford to do that though.

In addition many small time LL's won't invest unless the asset pays for itself. Realistically, and I say this as a LL, profit isn't the issue - cashflow is. Cashflow is paramount as you never know when you're going to be landed with a deadbeat for a year or more and get stung for legal fees.

Edit: Many LL's are selling up hence why, even though REITs buy at a huge rate, RTB registrations are down.

Tax included, There is no way a landlord is not making a return on the investment. Its drivel. unless they overspent on that investment (massively) Its waffle to indicate that current rental trends is not covering the investment and allowing profit.

Tax is high yes, but in this market a landlord is winning.

A quick way to acknowledge this is asking them would they sell ?

mammajamma · 12-11-2018 5:28pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

The govt will only react if there's a mass backlash a la Irish Water, which won't happen as the rise in rents and house prices suit a great many people and those with a house already won't really care.

And that's the thing, there wont be a backlash because the narrative is as carefully controlled as possible.

When it comes crashing down (and it 100% will), all the government will have to do is endure a few months of awkwardness, then get voted out and disappear off to la la land with their lovely perks and accumulated gains.

There is literally no down-side to this for them. Its a free for all, grab all, disappear job for them. Handy number!

In other words, there is no accountability now, and there wont be later. Why would they try to do anything about anything that doesn't involve lining their own pockets?

Samuel T. Cogley · 12-11-2018 5:29pm

listermint wrote: »

Tax included, There is no way a landlord is not making a return on the investment. Its drivel. unless they overspent on that investment (massively) Its waffle to indicate that current rental trends is not covering the investment and allowing profit.

Tax is high yes, but in this market a landlord is winning.

A quick way to acknowledge this is asking them would they sell ?

It's not making a positive cash flow which is the issue. Cash flow is required as a contingency fund needs to be built up to carry you through a period of not getting any rent which could be upto 24 months. Like it or not people won't invest unless the asset is at least covering itself, unless you're a REIT of course.

As for selling, as people pop out of neg equity and have a capital loss they can deal with they are selling. I'm not sure what more proof you need of that other than RTB registrations are down and there are an estimated 10K less LLs than there were 12 months ago.

If it's so good, why are people leaving?

whisky_galore · 12-11-2018 5:31pm

Yes. It's never about what's good for society here. It's how much money you can trouser.

22michael44 · 12-11-2018 5:54pm

Do any of the landlords in the accomodation forum post about having problems sleeping at night? i think i definitely would.

Moonjet · 12-11-2018 5:57pm

mammajamma wrote: »

When it comes crashing down (and it 100% will)

The chance of property prices crashing in the short to medium term is slim to none. Definitely nowhere near 100%.
Could you explain the circumstances or series of events that is going to occur in order for you to state with 100% certainty there will be another property crash? (Apart from 'it happened before')

BattleCorp · 12-11-2018 5:57pm

22michael44 wrote: »

Do any of the landlords in the accomodation forum post about having problems sleeping at night? i think i definitely would.

What many people seem to not realise is that landlords aren't a homogenous group. Some are making money and some are not.

Rory28 · 12-11-2018 6:01pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What many people seem to not realise is that landlords aren't a homogenous group. Some are making money and some are not.

They are an easy target to point at and say "Thats the bad guy". But we are both being shafted by the current system.

Not including politicians who are landlords.

mammajamma · 12-11-2018 6:05pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What many people seem to not realise is that landlords aren't a homogenous group. Some are making money and some are not.

Very true.

There are those that got in before the pyramid scheme, and those after.

Theres the guy that was a landlord before an artisan dwelling in oxmantown road, 2 bed, cost 490'000 euro. Theyre singing in the rain, only the rain is money, hand over fist.

Theres the guy who bought into the pyramid scheme, got a mortgage for some eye-watering amount, and now has to rape people to get the money back.

Then there are those that had no intentions of becoming a landlord, but were forced into it because they too were post-pyramid scheme.

Honestly, out of those 3 categories, and from personal lived experience, the pre-pyramid schemers probably form the vast majority. So I don't think its the worst categorisation in the world when it is said taht "landlords are robbing us blind" generally, because generally, I think MOST of them are robbing us blind!

12-11-2018 6:12pm

22michael44 wrote: »

Do any of the landlords in the accomodation forum post about having problems sleeping at night? i think i definitely would.

My head is fried with my tenant. I’m sick and tired of having to chase him up for rent week after week after week. He will never answer the call but send a text with some sob story. It’s been an ongoing situation since early 2016, things run smoothly for a couple of months then back to the chasing again.

He thinks I’m his therapist and agony aunt and credit facility all rolled into one. The mad thing is the place is spotless with him in it and if he just stuck to his side of the bargain we could all live quietly. I’d rather just pay my mortgage and have my daughters or other family members use it when they’re visiting rather than a stranger treating me as a surrogate mother.

I tried it out and this landlord lark is not for me. Next year I will be part of the statistic of a landlord not signing up again to rtb.

22michael44 · 12-11-2018 6:32pm

Rory28 wrote: »

They are an easy target to point at and say "Thats the bad guy". But we are both being shafted by the current system.

Not including politicians who are landlords.

ah of course yeah, but it's not as if After Hours doesn't have a habit of grouping people together and pointing the finger at them en masse.

wyf437gn6btzue · 12-11-2018 6:32pm

mammajamma wrote: »

Very true.

There are those that got in before the pyramid scheme, and those after.

Theres the guy that was a landlord before an artisan dwelling in oxmantown road, 2 bed, cost 490'000 euro. Theyre singing in the rain, only the rain is money, hand over fist.

Theres the guy who bought into the pyramid scheme, got a mortgage for some eye-watering amount, and now has to rape people to get the money back.

Then there are those that had no intentions of becoming a landlord, but were forced into it because they too were post-pyramid scheme.

Honestly, out of those 3 categories, and from personal lived experience, the pre-pyramid schemers probably form the vast majority. So I don't think its the worst categorisation in the world when it is said taht "landlords are robbing us blind" generally, because generally, I think MOST of them are robbing us blind!

You have absolutely no clue what a pyramid scheme is do you?

:D

steddyeddy · 12-11-2018 6:42pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

What the article fails to point out is taxes and expenses have gone up in this time. So while rents are higher landlords get less money and that is after years of making a loss while rents were down.
When rents were dropping they added these taxes and expenses and the public didn't care. Why should landlords care about people complaining?

Grand but we have landlords on here calling for even higher rent despite record breaking rents. You really expect sympathy from tenants who pay a substantially proportion of their wage towards rent?

beauf · 12-11-2018 6:43pm

This issue is not about landlords.

Its supply.

If you want to push rents down you need over supply.

Greyfox · 12-11-2018 6:49pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What many people seem to not realise is that landlords aren't a homogenous group. Some are making money and some are not.

Most are making money though, their in a much better position than the tenant who hasent had a raise in years and is not hard by the increase in cost of everything. Most landlords have a 2nd or 3rd home

whisky_galore · 12-11-2018 7:07pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What many people seem to not realise is that landlords aren't a homogenous group. Some are making money and some are not.

Ah shur God love them.

But they could sell, couldn't they?

22michael44 · 12-11-2018 7:25pm

beauf wrote: »

This issue is not about landlords.

Its supply.

If you want to push rents down you need over supply.

it's both

this nihilistic capitalist 'let the market sort it out' attitude really gets to me

Rent costs breaking records

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