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Demos

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    #62
    ClutchIt
    Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭ClutchIt


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Now at all of these stages I actually do the 'writing' by running through hundreds (if not many hundreds) or ideas and iterations of those ideas. It's just something I can do and the easiest way for me to write.

    Now, many many of those ideas are equally "good" and at some point the end result becomes a hit "arbritary" I'm the sense that, I've sort of randomly chosen between two good parts (or 10 or sometimes more).

    When I get feedback, sometimes, mutilple people say they'd like to hear something different at point x.

    I certainly considered many variations for the same point in the song.

    To me, if the song is "better" because I've switched to another one of my own ideas, then I'm happy, others are happy and the band is potentially more successful.

    But this is the essence of songwriting really. Everyone has to decide between different notes, chords, length of times to repeat something etc.
    You should try to be more confident in your own decisions instead of needing other opinions all the time. But I don't blame you, I know it's not easy and if I wasn't working by myself so much I'd prob be the same.

    I think you should make one demo. Then use that to get your band together, get gigs and hopefully get the money together to do a proper record release. Doing more than one demo of a song and posting them all up is boring and a completely pointless exercise to anyone other than musicians (or even worse probably just to music producers).

    But each to their own and you seem to be doing OK for a band that hasn't even gigged together!


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    #63
    Neurojazz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Neurojazz


    Surely posting publicly and asking for feedback creates a nightmare for a publisher and potential label.

    NFP category comes to mind, but there are probably others.

    Any contributor to criticism to any track posted that way would be legally entitled to a share of royalties even if they were not credited, and take issue with the bands publisher and you'd get no royalty until settled. As all the feedback is in black & white, dated, here.

    Another angle that's probably at the back of PBs mind.


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    #64
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    Neurojazz wrote: »
    Surely posting publicly and asking for feedback creates a nightmare for a publisher and potential label.

    NFP category comes to mind, but there are probably others.

    Any contributor to criticism to any track posted that way would be legally entitled to a share of royalties even if they were not credited, and take issue with the bands publisher and you'd get no royalty until settled. As all the feedback is in black & white, dated, here.

    Another angle that's probably at the back of PBs mind.

    No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.

    If someone came up to you a a gig and said, the solo is too long, and then you shortened the solo, would they get a credit??

    I'm pretty sure that wouldn't hold up in any court.

    That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

    Besides, I've got all the original bits.. I someone can find something they suggested that falls outside of some bit I've recorded and theyan prove they gave it to me, and they can convince a court of all of that, then grand, they can have 1% of the song. But no one aside from the core of the band actually writes the material.

    Not worried about that at all, in all honesty.


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    #65
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    ClutchIt wrote: »
    But this is the essence of songwriting really. Everyone has to decide between different notes, chords, length of times to repeat something etc.
    You should try to be more confident in your own decisions instead of needing other opinions all the time. But I don't blame you, I know it's not easy and if I wasn't working by myself so much I'd prob be the same.

    I think you should make one demo. Then use that to get your band together, get gigs and hopefully get the money together to do a proper record release. Doing more than one demo of a song and posting them all up is boring and a completely pointless exercise to anyone other than musicians (or even worse probably just to music producers).

    But each to their own and you seem to be doing OK for a band that hasn't even gigged together!

    It's got nothing to do with confidence, it's about stepping outside my bubble.

    I don't think "how do I fix this crap" I think " can I somehow make a good song better".

    I wouldn't post it anywhere if I didn't think it was good, or unless I thought it was interesting.

    As for it being boring, lots of folks disagree, others just ignore the stuff.

    As for only being interesting to musicians, go look at our facebook friends, that's not a big list of musos/musicians.


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    #66
    novarock
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭novarock


    In my experience, what we have classified as demo's are not what we record ourselves. There is nothing worse than being handed a CD, or sent a link and then being told "this isnt the final mix" or "we're recording it properly next month".

    A demo should give the listener an idea of what you sound like, but it still has to sound great/professional. An example would be my own band that use some electronics/backing tracks and the normal three piece rock setup. Our initial "demo's" were what we were playing live at the time, as in the three main instruments and the mono backing track with very few overdubs or post/pre production put into it, but recorded properly (by Mick in Trackmix).

    They were demo's recorded on a tight budget, and giving Mick very little time to mix, (3 or 4 songs in 2 or 3 days) but they were recorded to airplay standard, and were sent to radio.

    It wasnt until this year that we properly produced the songs and recorded them on a bigger budget with more time, but the ground work was in place, and people had heard a demo of a good standard, so we still got great feedback on the new recordings.

    The point im trying to make is that im one of the listeners (as im sure that most people on this forum are) that doesnt just listen to the song as a whole, i listen to the production, the individual instruments, the singer etc.. So in my opinion to put something in the public domain that you cannot fully stand behind, and not give any excuses about, is a bad idea.


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    #67
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    henessjon wrote: »
    strange post for you..PB

    bearing in mind there probably are only few dozen worthy producers out there your not giving us lesser mortals encouragement

    to invest more in our efforts..


    but hey ho ...

    keep music live
    keep making music

    is what i say

    That's the point Jon ! Try harder - make decisions and present work when it's finished !


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    #68
    Rockshamrover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Rockshamrover


    How many bands have gone the route of spending vast sums in getting top quality recordings done to find that their stuff just isn't up to scratch? Or is of no interest to Joe Bloggs? A good 99.9%

    That's just not a viable option for the majority of people now. It just doesn't make sense for a band.

    You can log onto Gearslutz and go to their version of "lets hear your music".
    A lot of the guys there are using state of the art equipment but it doesn't mean their song writing or music compositions are better than the guy with a 4 track.

    The net is just a new way to reach listeners. My crappy songs have been listened to by people in every part of the world, I think that's incredible and I think it's the future of Rock and Roll:D


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    #69
    Neurojazz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Neurojazz


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.

    If someone came up to you a a gig and said, the solo is too long, and then you shortened the solo, would they get a credit??

    I'm pretty sure that wouldn't hold up in any court.

    That's the kind of thing we're talking about.

    It's more about the material posted here, in black and white when people recommendations - that would stand up in a court, and even a publisher seeing it would balk. Just makes me wonder about people posting for feedback, and then saying 'No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.' - why do you actually post and ask for feedback then? Ego masturbation?


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    #70
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    That's the point Jon ! Try harder - make decisions and present work when it's finished !

    I really don't believe you think I don't try hard.

    It's not about my effort levels and its kinda annoying to see it framed like that.

    If I was working with you and you told gave me a suggestions, should I ignore it? I mean, if the song is done, why listen to ANYONE?

    I don't know a single successful musician (and I know more than a few) that got that way by assuming that a) they didn't need outside opinions and b) their material was perfect.

    I honestly, honestly, think that a LOT of the material I hear should've gone through a more rigorous demoing process.

    I don't actually believe that live is a good way to demo material (no one can hear it, you can't actually bring production ideas to stage the way you can in a studio and drunks aren't great at critical thinking).

    Until I have a bad experience from this process, you're not gonna convince me it's flawed.

    To me, asking for advice and knowing what advice to listen to and what to ignore is a crucial part of the equation... To me.

    But PB, I bust my hump on a pretty much daily basis for this thing, you may not like my choices, that's cool, but saying I'm not trying is pretty weak. I assume if I had sorta half-assed the material, not shared the demos, and went to a studio, then came out with a gorgeously polished turd, that would be "trying hard"?

    I don't think it's reasonable to equate, "recording quality" to "effort".


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    #71
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    Neurojazz wrote: »
    It's more about the material posted here, in black and white when people recommendations - that would stand up in a court, and even a publisher seeing it would balk. Just makes me wonder about people posting for feedback, and then saying 'No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.' - why do you actually post and ask for feedback then? Ego masturbation?

    i dont know about this to be honest.
    look at it from from a point of view that'd we'd both be familiar with neuro - take d.a.v.e. the drummer (stay up forever, hydraulix, boscaland etc etc). he posts nearly all his demos online and never has a problem releasing them. maybe he's at a stage where he's gonna shift units no matter what? maybe the electronic scene works differant?

    i know when i was starting out making techno i used to post a lot of tracks over at mark EGs blackout audio forums and a lot of my earlier stuff was signed from those posts.

    personally i choose not to post demos when i started getting happy with my productions but i know quite a few producers on the techno scene with a large amount of releases between them that still post demos and sketches over there.

    im also currently about to start making techno again and since i havent been doing it in a few years ill probably go back over there for some input before i start sending out to labels. thats a lot to do with the speed in which that scene moves though and being away from it for a while i'd be pretty arrogant to assume i know whats working a dancefloor these days.

    i think its all pretty simple - whatever works for you is the way to go.


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    #72
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    I really don't believe you think I don't try hard.

    It's not about my effort levels and its kinda annoying to see it framed like that.

    If I was working with you and you told gave me a suggestions, should I ignore it? I mean, if the song is done, why listen to ANYONE?

    I don't know a single successful musician (and I know more than a few) that got that way by assuming that a) they didn't need outside opinions and b) their material was perfect.

    I honestly, honestly, think that a LOT of the material I hear should've gone through a more rigorous demoing process.

    I don't actually believe that live is a good way to demo material (no one can hear it, you can't actually bring production ideas to stage the way you can in a studio and drunks aren't great at critical thinking).

    Until I have a bad experience from this process, you're not gonna convince me it's flawed.

    To me, asking for advice and knowing what advice to listen to and what to ignore is a crucial part of the equation... To me.

    But PB, I bust my hump on a pretty much daily basis for this thing, you may not like my choices, that's cool, but saying I'm not trying is pretty weak. I assume if I had sorta half-assed the material, not shared the demos, and went to a studio, then came out with a gorgeously polished turd, that would be "trying hard"?

    I don't think it's reasonable to equate, "recording quality" to "effort".

    Is your name Jon ?;)


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    #73
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    Neurojazz wrote: »
    It's more about the material posted here, in black and white when people recommendations - that would stand up in a court, and even a publisher seeing it would balk. Just makes me wonder about people posting for feedback, and then saying 'No one really contributes in that meaningful a way.' - why do you actually post and ask for feedback then? Ego masturbation?

    Like I said, no one has yet said, "try going to C# here" etc.etc.

    It's always little things and it's almost always something I've thought of anyway. In fact it's often something I already have recorded.

    Really though, we've talked to all sorts of industry folks (our producer is wildly connected) and they see what we do and don't raise any flags.

    Maybe they will at some point, but so far, nothing.

    On the other hand, I was at a party recently, full of musicians and assorted hangers-on... I met at least five people that had heard of my band... a few knew song titles.

    This thing I do works for me... and people that find it annoying or boring have just learned to ignore it.


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    #74
    Neurojazz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Neurojazz


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Like I said, no one has yet said, "try going to C# here" etc.etc.

    It's always little things and it's almost always something I've thought of anyway. In fact it's often something I already have recorded.

    Really though, we've talked to all sorts of industry folks (our producer is wildly connected) and they see what we do and don't raise any flags.

    Maybe they will at some point, but so far, nothing.

    On the other hand, I was at a party recently, full of musicians and assorted hangers-on... I met at least five people that had heard of my band... a few knew song titles.

    This thing I do works for me... and people that find it annoying or boring have just learned to ignore it.

    Then maybe the thing missing is that people actually are seeking producers/guidance to get the confidence to think it's something to release and seeking that input from whatever source they can get?

    Look at Hysteria/Def Leppard and the whole Mutt Lange impact.


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    #75
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    Neurojazz wrote: »
    Then maybe the thing missing is that people actually are seeking producers/guidance to get the confidence to think it's something to release and seeking that input from whatever source they can get?

    Look at Hysteria/Def Leppard and the whole Mutt Lange impact.

    I'm not sure about the whole producers/confidence angle.

    I have no lack of confidence, but I'm not arrogant. I am open to hearing people's input.

    All the bands you can think of work with producers that influence and change their sound, at least most of...

    Do all those bands, from the Beatles, to Radiohead, to Sinatra, etc., lack confidence?

    Or did they just value an outside ear and someone else's input and help?


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    #76
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    (our producer is wildly connected)

    Who's that then ?


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    #77
    henessjon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭henessjon


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    That's the point Jon ! Try harder - make decisions and present work when it's finished !

    so is it the song you are damming or the production?

    maybe Im getting confused on your viewpoint?


    whats use are demos maybe another thread


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    #78
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    henessjon wrote: »
    so is it the song you are damming or the production?

    maybe Im getting confused on your viewpoint?

    The two are very intertwined. I just feel posting unfinished work is a bit lazy.

    I'm not interested in unfinished work as a rule (unless I'm involved) and while it might be of some interest to some 'in da biz' I don't believe many punters are either.


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    #79
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Who's that then ?

    An English guy named Tim.


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    #80
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    An English guy named Tim.

    Tim Who ?


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    #81
    MilanPan!c
    Site Banned Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭MilanPan!c


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Tim Who ?

    Why do you care?


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    #82
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Tim Who ?

    tumblr_l3z49d3Vbu1qbe8who1_500.jpg


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    #83
    TelePaul
    Registered Users Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭TelePaul


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Why do you care?

    frankie-say-relax.jpg

    :D


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    #84
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    thats easy for frankie to say...


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    #85
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    LOL


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    #86
    stateofflux
    Registered Users Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭stateofflux


    with the amount of recording power the average person has on even a basic laptop....there should'nt be a need to use the term demo....
    sometimes i can't tell the difference between high end studio masters and a DIY job with a guy who knows what he's doing....especially with non miced instruments


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    #87
    Rockshamrover
    Registered Users Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭Rockshamrover


    PaulBrewer wrote: »
    Rock, posting here and it's likes wasn't what I meant - even though this is 'public' in the broad sense it's really rather specialised, so that's fair enough.

    I meant dropping unfinished work into the public arena MySpace etc.

    Some famous producer once said (or was it twice) "a song is never finished, it's abandoned".

    Again it all depends on why you are putting the music out there and where you are on the learning curve.

    There is obviously no benefit in posting unfinished work for the likes of yourself as you know what you're doing and what you want to achieve.

    Us slow learners:D can still derive some benefit from it for now.

    I would probably share your view if I had your experience but I would recommend my view for people looking for experience.

    People need to get their music listened to at a certain point in their development. No point in Auntie B and uncle Joe hearing it.


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    #88
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    MilanPan!c wrote: »
    Why do you care?

    Just asking. I'm interested in who is doing what within the industry.


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    #89
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    stateofflux wrote: »
    with the amount of recording power the average person has on even a basic laptop....there should'nt be a need to use the term demo....
    sometimes i can't tell the difference between high end studio masters and a DIY job with a guy who knows what he's doing....especially with non miced instruments

    Good Point -

    I use the term 'Demo' as in unfinished idea as opposed to a reflection on it's recording quality.


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    #90
    PaulBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,790 ✭✭✭PaulBrewer


    Rockshamrover wrote: »
    Some famous producer once said (or was it twice) "a song is never finished, it's abandoned".

    Again it all depends on why you are putting the music out there and where you are on the learning curve.

    There is obviously no benefit in posting unfinished work for the likes of yourself as you know what you're doing and what you want to achieve.

    Us slow learners:D can still derive some benefit from it for now.

    I would probably share your view if I had your experience but I would recommend my view for people looking for experience.

    People need to get their music listened to at a certain point in their development. No point in Auntie B and uncle Joe hearing it.

    That's fine Rock, and I can see that that could make sense.
    But I think there can be negative consequences.

    My gut reaction to that band I mentioned in the OP was hit the 'Stop' button quick.

    I doubt that was intention.


    Had they presented even one song well, this thread might never have happened.


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    #91
    PMI
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭PMI


    Demo is an OLD word....

    I like to call it the 1st run, and if your throwing it out in the public arena your designing the song to what suits....

    I fought hard and lost about putting some really bad one take demos up they went ahead and i try to ignore it....

    Demo was for a record company, so those days are gone you have to be finished, looking good, fan base built etc.. and off ya go...

    I too like paul would like to know this tim guy as im english and have worked with a few tims in my time, in london and am wondering if its any of them.... :)

    no need to dive down pauls throat :D


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