Demos

PaulBrewer

What are they for ?

Are they for public consumption ?
Isn't that what 'CDs' or 'Releases' are for ?

Is it not damaging to a bands rep to put 'unfinished' work on a public arena like MySpace - a punter just listens and either like or dislikes, what they hear is what is being judged.

A friend referred me to a band on myspace who have 2 'demo' tracks up - both awful. My shackles are raised instantly.

Why would a band do that ?

maccored

wouldnt that always have been the case? when demos where recorded onto cassette there were people who went to studios and others who used 4 track cassette tascams. I reckon you still had badly recorded demos.

I do think though sometimes people go too far in letting people listen to every trial and tribulation. Do a mix, put it online, tweak it and put *that* online, change the vocals a bit and put that online etc etc - but otherwise I think theres always been good and bad demos

PaulBrewer

maccored wrote: »

wouldnt that always have been the case? when demos where recorded onto cassette there were people who went to studios and others who used 4 track cassette tascams. I reckon you still had badly recorded demos.

I do think though sometimes people go too far in letting people listen to every trial and tribulation. Do a mix, put it online, tweak it and put *that* online, change the vocals a bit and put that online etc etc - but otherwise I think theres always been good and bad demos

Indeed, but then a Demo was somewhat private - NOT for public consumption under any circumstances.

Why would one put something substandard out - which putting it on MySpace/Soundcloud etc is ?

maccored

part of the new world of the interweb is letting people know you are human. Granted, its normal to do this within the privacy of your own site within a members only area, but not everyone realises sometimes somethings are best kept private

jtsuited

Interesting questions.

Don't really know what way it works in the rock game anymore, but in my line of work, where you're making a lot of stuff at a constant rate, it's nice to have demos of stuff to play in clubs.
Also a lot of producers like myself will shtick some bits and bobs up on soundcloud (not myspace as myspace is a bit too 'public' if ya get me), and sometimes a lot of other producers who you respect will go mental for a demo, so you know it's worth finishing.

In an ideal world, us musicians shouldn't need that sort of feedback, but we're all a little insecure right?

I presume bands do it for similar reasons? Maybe not.

PaulBrewer

maccored wrote: »

not everyone realises sometimes somethings are best kept private

My point exactly ....

But what is driving this ?

'Me too' ? Impressing ones friends ?


Or, horror of horrors, they think it IS good enough ?

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What are they for ?

Are they for public consumption ?
Isn't that what 'CDs' or 'Releases' are for ?

Is it not damaging to a bands rep to put 'unfinished' work on a public arena like MySpace - a punter just listens and either like or dislikes, what they hear is what is being judged.

A friend referred me to a band on myspace who have 2 'demo' tracks up - both awful. My shackles are raised instantly.

Why would a band do that ?

I honestly wouldn't have any of the "success" I've had with making fans, recording at WL, etc., If I'd waited to put up stuff, until after I'd had a perfectly finished product.

I think there's GREAT opportunity to make fans by letting them see the progress of the material.

Just my opinion, but there's no real reason to NOT put up demos/unfinished stuff, as long as you label it as a demo/unfinished mix/whatever.

IMO.

DamagedTrax

personally not a fan of making demos public but each to their own.

whatever gets you to where you wanna be is the right way to go.

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I think there's GREAT opportunity to make fans by letting them see the progress of the material.

Are they REALLY interested in something unfinished. Perhaps a few completists ? Certainly not the majority ?

(Unless, of course, you have 2 fans and one of them is interested - that's 50% right there )

And the 'yet to be' Fans ? Why scare them off ?

TelePaul

The internet and a rising number of poorly-skilled enthusiasts like myself mean that an amateur band can broadcast an imperfect message further than ever before. It seems that where initially bands started self-promoting by playing in bars and clubs (where they effectively 'honed their skills'), the move to the studio now represents a less-significant leap forward; in actual fact, studio work can be undertaken in tandem or even before these traditionally pre-requisite endeavours (as any guitarist with a bassist, drummer and MacBook will attest). The importance of viral marketing has propagated a belief whereby if a band has no online presence, they have no presence at all (a mindset that is proving difficult to fault). So, given the choice, would you rather be a bad musician with no audience or a bad musician with a potential audience of several hundred million?

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Are they REALLY interested in something unfinished. Perhaps a few completists ? Certainly not the majority ?

(Unless, of course, you have 2 fans and one of them is interested - that's 50% right there )

And the 'yet to be' Fans ? Why scare them off ?

I don't see it like that at all.

I have had so many people, so many, tell me they enjoy watching the songs evolve.

AND

It's a narrative.

I've had six months of contact with people.

If I had waited until I "finished" none of the people I've met in the last six months would know of my band.

And, I'd have a brief "launch" and then that's it.

This way, I've been able to build something up...

And I really don't think (honestly) that I've "lost" any fans. The people that may have been put off by rough stuff will always potentially hear the finished stuff on the radio/internet and make up their mind again.

Now, it's not for everyone, but I honestly think, as a way to build a name without playing a bunch of crap shows, it's a pretty good option!

IMO

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

bad musician with no audience or a bad musician with a potential audience of several hundred million?

Well put TP.

However I wager it reverts to option A always.

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Well put TP.

However I wager it reverts to option A always.

True enough, and as crap as my demos are/were they were never just a guy with an acoustic guitar.

You have to be smart about it, but look, I've posted at least 6 versions of that OED song and, at this point, they all get a lot of plays almost immediately ('a lot' being a relative term). People aren't put off; if they like the songs they are drawn into the process.

PaulBrewer

MilanPan!c wrote: »

if they like the songs they are drawn into the process.

I dunno .... sounds a bit far fetched to me.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Well put TP.

However I wager it reverts to option A always.

It's funny. I played in a few bands when I was in school. We were distinctly average. I remember the bassist quitting because we 'never played any gigs'. I was of the opinion that few people - bar friends and relatives - would really want to hear a forty minute version of Rory Gallagher's 'Bad Penny'! I'd always prefer to give an excellent performance in my own living room than to give an average performance to a crowd. I've never, ever played a gig.

PaulBrewer

TelePaul wrote: »

I've never, ever played a gig.

That's a pity TP . It's great fun.
It's that 'seat of the pants stuff' that propels your playing forward .

Also the feedback (in the good sense) is instant.

MilanPan!c

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I dunno .... sounds a bit far fetched to me.

I CAN forward you the emails...?

We've never played a gig (though I have personally played hundreds) and have no finished mixes, but we do have 11K myspace views and thousands and thousands of plays between MS and SC.

I have no vested interest in saying this **** other than its true.

We have twitter followers, blog subscribers and readers and hundreds (almost 250) facebook fans (in about a month).

No finished songs, no gigs.

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's a pity TP . It's great fun.
It's that 'seat of the pants stuff' that propels your playing forward .

Also the feedback (in the good sense) is instant.

I hear what you're saying, though to echo my previous sentiments regarding music as a profession, there's a certain security to be had in not trying

Also with regard to demos; have any of you played a ham-fisted take on 'Wild Thing' only to be showered with praise/sexual favours? Same applies to the internet demo as non musicians generally can't tell one end of a guitar from another.

maccored

PaulBrewer wrote: »

My point exactly ....

But what is driving this ?

'Me too' ? Impressing ones friends ?


Or, horror of horrors, they think it IS good enough ?

I think its mainly because its possible to put it somewhere where it can be listened to. I dont think every band considers if it should be publically available or not. just because its possible to do something doesnt mean one should do it, but that wont stop everyone.

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

No finished songs, no gigs.

arent you playing that Next Becks Thing thing?

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

arent you playing that Next Becks Thing thing?

haha... Yes! that could be our first show!

Though not til ROctober...

We're gonna try and sneak a few gigs in under an assumed name before then...

I'm thinking, Chris and the Giant Internet Rumours.

maccored

that heat 5? I think we're in heat 4.

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

I think its mainly because its possible to put it somewhere where it can be listened to. I dont think every band considers if it should be publically available or not. just because its possible to do something doesnt mean one should do it, but that wont stop everyone.

It's DEF true that it's better to have a plan, then to just randomly throw **** on the internerd, but honestly, if a band has good songs it's just not an issue.

How many people do you know that say things like, "well, I WOULD like [insert massively popular artist] BUT they posted some demos online at one point so..."?

It just seems like a non-issue, if the songs are good and the demos are atrocious.

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

How many people do you know that say things like, "well, I would like [insert massively popular artist] but they posted some demos online at one point so..."?

plenty do but to private members. the beastie boys, fort minor, linkin park etc etc. beastie boys even have a studio cam that goes live every time they mess around in the studio. all part of getting people to pay the subscription fee, which is an interesting angle on the whole 'how to make money from the web' angle. FM/LP have taken the fan club idea to a new level as well, and modernised it for the web

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

that heat 5? I think we're in heat 4.

See you in the finals!



No, I actually have no idea what heat it is; Phantom has promoted this so shoddily...

Maybe they'll do more once the actual finals are approaching, but...

so far, I have no clue who's playing when...

TelePaul

MilanPan!c wrote: »

but we do have 11K myspace views and thousands and thousands of plays between MS and SC.

But what do those stats actually mean in terms of your popularity? By your own admission, none of these people have bought a gig to your show, right?

PaulBrewer

Ah lads ? Battle of the Bands ? Surely that's only for kids ? No self respecting band who could see past their noses would enter one ? No?

TelePaul

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah lads ? Battle of the Bands ? Surely that's only for kids ? No self respecting band who could see past their noses would enter one ? No?

Haha PB what were ya telling me about gigging?

eviltimeban

Maybe they do think its good enough. But also, you have to remember a lot of musicians and bands are just DYING for people to hear their music, so they put it up. They are obviously excited about the fact they have something down on tape (for want of a better word) and want to play it for everyone. Now, the quality can be bad, the song may not even be finished, and that's for them to go back and improve. But at the same time if that's the way they want to present themselves to the world, fair enough.

I've put demos up. In fact, you could say all my tracks are "demos" because they are not professionally recorded, mixed or mastered. But where do you distinguish demos from masters? If the artist feels its finished, that it can be no better, that this is the final article, then its no longer a demo and it is a master. Just because its recorded in a bedroom, doesn't mean its a demo - plenty of people have had hits with "bedroom" recorded music.

Its what they class it - if they call their own work "a demo", then they feel its not the finished article.

MilanPan!c

TelePaul wrote: »

But what do those stats actually mean in terms of your popularity? By your own admission, none of these people have bought a gig to your show, right?

Well, here's some perspective, I can name 5-6 bands that regularly play in Dublin, with properly recorded records, that don't get as many plays.

And, the other thing is that these numbers are consistent and consistently moving up. We have more plays per week now than a month ago, and so on.

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

To me, this is a victory, for the band, we have already got interested people, a lot in context, before we've done anything.

On top of that, I'm literally turning down shows, regularly.

As long as we put on a GOOD live show I think this little plan has helped us avoid the whole pay-to-play dilemma... at least it's dulled it a bit.

If that's all this has done, gotten us a bunch of early interest, and help, and helped us avoid paying to play those first few crappy gigs... what's not to recommend?

PaulBrewer

I see your point ok. Being devils advocate for a moment - couldn't a lot of those plays have come from here I.e boards? There, is after all, by definition of the forums members interest, a tacit interest in what other people are doing , which is a long way from being a 'fan'.

Also how much more interest would you have generated by posting the ultimate finished product ? Rather than sketches along the way?

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Well, here's some perspective, I can name 5-6 bands that regularly play in Dublin, with properly recorded records, that don't get as many plays.

And, the other thing is that these numbers are consistent and consistently moving up. We have more plays per week now than a month ago, and so on.

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

To me, this is a victory, for the band, we have already got interested people, a lot in context, before we've done anything.

On top of that, I'm literally turning down shows, regularly.

As long as we put on a GOOD live show I think this little plan has helped us avoid the whole pay-to-play dilemma... at least it's dulled it a bit.

If that's all this has done, gotten us a bunch of early interest, and help, and helped us avoid paying to play those first few crappy gigs... what's not to recommend?

TelePaul

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Well, here's some perspective, I can name 5-6 bands that regularly play in Dublin, with properly recorded records, that don't get as many plays.

But again...I'm not sure what this means? Is it better to have a larger online following than a moderate 'real life' following?

MilanPan!c wrote: »

And, the other thing is that these numbers are consistent and consistently moving up. We have more plays per week now than a month ago, and so on.

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

One thing I have noticed about MySpace - and this is in no way directed at you - is that there's quite alot of brown-nosing on MySpace; you know, comments akin to "you're great"/"No lads, ye are great". Or else you get comments like "Love the tunes lads, btw we're playing Whelans next week", etc, etc. I can appreciate the benefits of free exposure but I wonder just how relevant this type of mass-marketing actually is.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

As long as we put on a live show I think this little plan has helped us avoid the whole pay-to-play dilemma... at least it's dulled it a bit.

If that's all this has done, gotten us a bunch of early interest, and help, and helped us avoid paying to play those first few crappy gigs... what's not to recommend?

So then you're back to broad exposure online versus limited exposure offline. Hmmmm. I really can't decide which is better without evaluating coversion data; if the people playing your songs on MySpace go on to buy your album, fine, mass marketing FTW...but there's a big difference between a would-be fan who streams a song via MySpace and the guy who pays a tenner into a pub in town on a rainy July evening. But really, this is something I have no experience with so you're probably right.

MilanPan!c

@PB In fairness, I don't think I'm getting 60-70 plays a day on soundcloud from the MP forum. I could be wrong. But, two weeks ago or so I hadn't posted a new track in a while and was still getting that.

So, a lot of it is coming from places outside of Boards.

20% of my soundcloud and MS plays are consistently from the US and another 10-15% is from the UK.

Consistantly.

Now, you guys are 100% corect in one sense, if I started selling stuff, who knows?? Not me.

Bu if you have a professionally recorded album, play Dublin twice a month and get 5 plays a day, then the difference ain't the quality of your recording. That seems pretty definitively true.

PaulBrewer

That's all well and good but if the ideas were fully developed what might happen ?
But I digress - one Internet swallow does not a Gold Record make. In general there doesn't seem, to me, to be an argument for making unfinished work public.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Well, here's some perspective, I can name 5-6 bands that regularly play in Dublin, with properly recorded records, that don't get as many plays.

And, the other thing is that these numbers are consistent and consistently moving up. We have more plays per week now than a month ago, and so on.

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

To me, this is a victory, for the band, we have already got interested people, a lot in context, before we've done anything.

On top of that, I'm literally turning down shows, regularly.

As long as we put on a GOOD live show I think this little plan has helped us avoid the whole pay-to-play dilemma... at least it's dulled it a bit.

If that's all this has done, gotten us a bunch of early interest, and help, and helped us avoid paying to play those first few crappy gigs... what's not to recommend?

MilanPan!c wrote: »

@PB In fairness, I don't think I'm getting 60-70 plays a day on soundcloud from the MP forum. I could be wrong. But, two weeks ago or so I hadn't posted a new track in a while and was still getting that.

So, a lot of it is coming from places outside of Boards.

20% of my soundcloud and MS plays are consistently from the US and another 10-15% is from the UK.

Consistantly.

Now, you guys are 100% corect in one sense, if I started selling stuff, who knows?? Not me.

Bu if you have a professionally recorded album, play Dublin twice a month and get 5 plays a day, then the difference ain't the quality of your recording. That seems pretty definitively true.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

im not putting anything up until its bang on -
its been taking me 2 years so far , but thems the breaks .

id rather know I did my best , and be shot down - at least i will know I tried my damndest

rather than do a half assed job , be shot down - and wonder what might have been ( not aiming this at anyone by the way , im strictly commenting on myself )


I also dont want to have ****e music but with a great production / sound .
so it takes time to get all factors right - and balanced

i play evolutions to people i trust - and this has helped alot
but no way will i make it public until i feel its right.

( that said - JT'S comment about dance / electro I feel makes sense
its a different ball game in alot of ways )

I also think you should keep a bit of mystery about yourself as a musician

putting up demos / evolutions to final track can expose you as being too human and alot of people do not want their fav music creator to be human
or too much like them - they want them to be an enigma - apart from them in some way .

I dont want to hear david bowies demo of a song until hes had a huge hit with it already - then id like to hear it - kind of like musical archealogy

for that matter - read his twitter

i want to be able to wonder .

this is why I think twitter is a disaster for a musicians image .
keep it to yourself , and they will will want to find out about you.


keep your demos to yourself , in the same way .

hope that makes sense

MILAN - i will say this - what if its your demos people like , and when the final track comes out they dont like it ?
maybe its the demos themselves that are your voice- and changing them could be detrimental
thats also a risk of too much exposure to the rough mixes- just a possible thought .

maccored

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah lads ? Battle of the Bands ? Surely that's only for kids ? No self respecting band who could see past their noses would enter one ? No?

I generally just stick us down for anything going and then forget about it unless someone gets back to me. I do this for fun, not respect ;-)

maccored

MilanPan!c wrote: »

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

I believe you may find that the people who visit your webpage arent always the people who will go to your shows. You'd probably need to do a decent amount of community building work your band to achieve that

Welease

It's interesting to read the replies based upon people knowledge and interests..

For me, the essence of a good song can still come through on a lesser quality recording, so from an initial showcase point of view it's ok..

What does surprise me sometimes, if the awful presentation of "professional" material.. Myspace etc. being a classic example.. Bands spending so much time and money for those recordings, and they present the rest of the band in a dog **** format amongst the masses...

DamagedTrax

Welease wrote: »

It's interesting to read the replies based upon people knowledge and interests..

For me, the essence of a good song can still come through on a lesser quality recording, so from an initial showcase point of view it's ok..

What does surprise me sometimes, if the awful presentation of "professional" material.. Myspace etc. being a classic example.. Bands spending so much time and money for those recordings, and they present the rest of the band in a dog **** format amongst the masses...

+1

theres so many external players now that provide higher quality its crazy to present your music on the standard player.

... although i am guilty of using the player on my label myspace but the label is on long term hiatus so im not too bothered at the moment.

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

I believe you may find that the people who visit your webpage arent always the people who will go to your shows. You'd probably need to do a decent amount of community building work your band to achieve that

I agree with all of this.

It's not about me believing all these people will show up at gigs; I'm not an idiot.

I do think though that when people, a not insignificant number of people at that, are positively predisposed to your band, nohing but good can come from it.

The question was, are demos in the wild good or bad; for me personally, they've been very good.

And that's all I can go by.

maccored

this internet thing is still pretty young so I suppose theres no right or wrong yet

Welease

DamagedTrax wrote: »

+1

theres so many external players now that provide higher quality its crazy to present your music on the standard player.

... although i am guilty of using the player on my label myspace but the label is on long term hiatus so im not too bothered at the moment.

Well (for me anyway) it's wider than just the players, but you are of course correct..

The whole site is cheap ass and really isn't designed to give the full possible experience.. It's like a company being hosted on Geocities.. it just looks crap..

If someone is serious enough to spend decent cash on proper studio recordings, then they should look to spend more than zero on their web presence if that will be one of their primary marketing/distribution channels.

henessjon

strange post for you..PB

bearing in mind there probably are only few dozen worthy producers out there your not giving us lesser mortals encouragement

to invest more in our efforts..


but hey ho ...

keep music live
keep making music

is what i say

MilanPan!c

DamagedTrax wrote: »

+1

theres so many external players now that provide higher quality its crazy to present your music on the standard player.

... although i am guilty of using the player on my label myspace but the label is on long term hiatus so im not too bothered at the moment.

The vast majority of our plays from MS and FB are on the Soundcloud player. Which is wildly superior.

**** the MS player. Ugh.

Rockshamrover

I have a posted 3 songs on Paul's very own "lets hear your music" thread.
Something I wouldn't have done maybe 18 months ago.

I didn't post them up as complete and finished as I am still only learning.
My reason for putting them up was to gauge peoples reactions and to get as much information as I could about where I was going wrong/right.

I consider it one of the best things I have done in terms of learning new things and making new contacts.

I actually find it fascinating to see how a tracks from the likes of Chris/Milan or ZV Yoda can change and evolve in front of your ears.

See link http://soundcloud.com/rockshamrover

Rockshamrover

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I agree, and I was actually meant to say in my post from a songwriting point of view I find Milan's stuff very interesting. But beyond that, I don't understand the point.

The point is you get something back. Other peoples knowledge and experience.

Rockshamrover

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Fair enough...surely that's when you're learning? If you want to establish yourself as a serious band or artist you have to be beyond that stage. I know we're "always learning", but I think there comes a point when you have to do your own thing and let it stand on its own two feet.

I don't think an artist that wants to be seen as an act to be taken seriously should put his songs up for critique before release, just doesn't make sense to me!

Different strokes I suppose. I'm happy to do it as I get something from it currently. Maybe you're further along the learning curve than me, that's great and that's where I want to be.

I think getting a leg up from people with more knowledge than me now gets me there quicker than I could on my own.

MilanPan!c

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I agree, and I was actually meant to say in my post from a songwriting point of view I find Milan's stuff very interesting. But beyond that, I don't understand the point.

Thanks for the compliment!

The point is this, and I'll just explain the whole thing at once instead of just dribs and drabs:

Every band I've ever been in, and that's a few, has done this:

find members
write songs
rehearse songs
play a bunch of crappy shows
record songs in studio on our own dime
re-learn the songs the way we recorded them
play slightly better shows
record again, on our own dime
pay someone to promote
talk to labels
put out something we paid to record
collapse in frustration

essentially.

What I decided to do, this time around, was to group try and record and define the band, before playing any shows, basically skip the steps 4-6:

play a bunch of crappy shows
record songs in studio on our own dime
re-learn the songs the way we recorded them

Instead I decided to stick to a few basic principles:

record the songs as best as I could
try to find help from interested parties
crowd-source the feedback process
include the world in the process

The last part was, I think a pretty good idea.

I've found that people, strangers, are feeling connected to this... let me give you one example:

recently I posted something on thumped about the band and a stranger said, essentially, "I feel like we've watched this come from the ground up.. it's exciting"

Now, I know that's a paraphrase of a single comment, but it's not actually the only one.

Rock just said the same thing.

People develop a connection, at least some do.

I have yet to have someone say, I dismiss your band, out of hand, because I you post demos and various iterations of your material. Maybe some do, but I think I'm coming out ahead...

This process isn't random to me. Yes, it's uncharted and yes it's be different in some respect if I didn't have other "real world" connections, but go look here:

http://www.facebook.com/pages/TheRiotTapes/107102279324813?v=app_178091127385

The VAST majority of these people are not actual friends of any of us. They're strangers.

Those people get updated version of songs all the time, and they still keep listening.

This guy, who I don't know, recently posted a link on his blog to a demo:

http://www.briangreene.com/bhg/2010/the-riot-tapes-open-eyed-dreams/

The Irish Times mentioned us, favourably, after we'd been recording my kitchen for 3 months.

There's a lot more going on behind the scenes as well.

And at least 60% of this stuff has nothing to do with my old label affiliations, but with people listening to unfinished stuff.

And demos.

So, to me, like I said, it's invaluable, but maybe not to others. That's cool.

I can measure the benefits though.

MilanPan!c

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

Fair enough...surely that's when you're learning? If you want to establish yourself as a serious band or artist you have to be beyond that stage. I know we're "always learning", but I think there comes a point when you have to do your own thing and let it stand on its own two feet.

I don't think an artist that wants to be seen as an act to be taken seriously should put his songs up for critique before release, just doesn't make sense to me!

To me, that doesn't make sense, at least not the me now... and old me maybe...

(hope that didn't come across as weird..)

I have gotten so much good feedback, just huge amount of honest info... I don't think I "know what's best" in so many instances.

I want people to help me and I want people to engage with the project.

This doesn't mean I'm forced to accept anything, but at least I know, more or less, what the response will be. To me, that's just gold.

Without being cheesy, I love collaborating, but I've had my own material watered down so many times by the collaboration process.

Have a crowd opinion means a wide variety of input, that I KNOW is honest. It also means I can reject the stupid or unworkable ideas without hurting feelings.

To me, its a perfect thing.

I am CONSTANTLY telling the people I work with that this band of mine is NOT an ego project. Tell me if something sucks, give me a better suggestion, be honest!

I have good "taste" for my genre, I'm protective of my music and I'm thick skinned. This means I can pretty easily suss out a useful suggestion, I won't be bullied and bad feedback doesn't hurt me.

To me, and for what I'm trying to accomplish, this process is exciting and useful.

Welease

Niall - Dahlia wrote: »

I don't think an artist that wants to be seen as an act to be taken seriously should put his songs up for critique before release, just doesn't make sense to me!

Isn't that an old way of looking at things?

Nowaday's technology has allowed, and in some case's encourages, global collaborations.. 20 years ago it was physical "collectives".. now with the internet, it's through electronic collectives.

People can draw new ideas and perspectives from putting something out there, and getting feedback on the next logical step.

There are very few perfect song writers or songs in this world.. and most could do with some polish.. if the final product is better.. everyone has gained. Locking it away until final release minimises the potential (but some could argue, keep's it purer to the songwriter).

(final post before bed, and I had a few whiskey.. will proof read and spell check tomorrow)

eoin5

My 2 cents not that its worth that much but if youre a serious originals band trying to make a go of it then the timing of releasing makes a big deal. If you release your stuff in dribs and drabs in various qualities over a period of time its unlikely that you're going to create a decent splash in the pond and garner a bit of interest. The polished 2-3 singles plus album plus marketing and tour formula is a proven one.

Now after saying that I wouldn't do any of that in a fit unless someone else was to do all the running. My music is fun for me and I don't want it any other way. Covers or backing band stuff is a bit different, its fun paid work thats great practice I won't have to get a loan out to cover the expense of a proper album recording and promotion tour (record deal = loan in my mind). I don't feel I need fame or success as I've a job I'm very happy in, but if it happened on my terms I wouldn't say no .