Minimising injury risk in the gym?

silverharp · 13-03-2019 10:24am #1

Apart from basic “Gym hygiene” stuff what principles/modifications are there to minimize injury risk so that you get the majority of benefits? One Ive done is do Hex bar dead lifts instead of regular dead lifts , the risk reward seems like a no brainer. I happened to catch a video on youtube talking about this topic in general but one specific thing in relation to protecting the shoulder was to never have your elbow go behind the plane of your body, so for example Bench Press don’t let the bar touch your chest as you are putting your shoulders at risk, is that a valid one? . Any other ones to look out for , say in relation to squats for example? would anyone suggest only doing the hex bar in place of DL and squat or is that being too conservative?

Mr. CooL ICE · 13-03-2019 10:57am

By using a hex bar instead of straight bar deadlifts, you're kinda taking away some of the benefits of the hip hinge aspects of a regular deadlift. There are reasons for doing hex bar deadlifts, but doing them instead of straight bar deadlifts to avoid getting injured is an odd one. Only reasons I can think of would be if you have a pre-existing injury, or if you just don't know how to deadlift properly. Deadlifting is safe if done correctly using proper form.

That elbow plane one sounds like absolute nonsense. For benching, your elbow can absolutely go behind the body, but the bar shouldn't go up and down, i.e. it should touch your chest somewhere below your nipples and not around your shoulders. Also, locking your shoulders back and down is important.

Squats, yeah, lots to look out for there. Short answer is to use proper form. Slightly longer answer is to breath properly, brace your entire core and move up and down while keeping the weight of the bar over mid foot. Hex bar deadlifts to replace squats is something I have never heard of.

Mellor · 13-03-2019 2:40pm

silverharp wrote: »

One Ive done is do Hex bar dead lifts instead of regular dead lifts , the risk reward seems like a no brainer. I happened to catch a video on youtube talking about this topic in general but one specific thing in relation to protecting the shoulder was to never have your elbow go behind the plane of your body, so for example Bench Press don’t let the bar touch your chest as you are putting your shoulders at risk, is that a valid one?

What's the no brainier in relation to hex bars?
I'm not a fan of them personally.

Hex bar deadlifts to replace squats is something I have never heard of.

I vaguely remember, a long time ago, somebody talking about trap bar deadlift movement replicating front squats movements. But I think it was more a case if overliafingbthe movement than a replacement.

Brian? · 14-03-2019 1:11pm

Mellor wrote: »

What's the no brainier in relation to hex bars?
I'm not a fan of them personally.

I vaguely remember, a long time ago, somebody talking about trap bar deadlift movement replicating front squats movements. But I think it was more a case if overliafingbthe movement than a replacement.

Trap bar deadlift is basically a front squat with the weight in your hands. It take a an awful lot of hamstring activation out of the exercise. Obviously there's more upper body engagement. I don't think it's a replacement for either front squats or deadlifts, it's something different to both.

Brian? · 14-03-2019 1:16pm

silverharp wrote: »

Apart from basic “Gym hygiene” stuff what principles/modifications are there to minimize injury risk so that you get the majority of benefits? One Ive done is do Hex bar dead lifts instead of regular dead lifts , the risk reward seems like a no brainer. I happened to catch a video on youtube talking about this topic in general but one specific thing in relation to protecting the shoulder was to never have your elbow go behind the plane of your body, so for example Bench Press don’t let the bar touch your chest as you are putting your shoulders at risk, is that a valid one? . Any other ones to look out for , say in relation to squats for example? would anyone suggest only doing the hex bar in place of DL and squat or is that being too conservative?

If you don't touch the bar with your chest, you're not doing a full bench press. If you're worried about your shoulders do proper shoulder mobility work and stick to DB pressing until it's decent.

That advice pretty much applies to everything. Spend more time on mobility work, don't do odd variations of exercises.

Why are you worried a out deadlift? Is there something wrong with your mobility or your form. A trap bar deadlift isn't a replacement.

Mellor · 14-03-2019 1:40pm

Brian? wrote: »

Trap bar deadlift is basically a front squat with the weight in your hands. It take a an awful lot of hamstring activation out of the exercise. Obviously there's more upper body engagement. I don't think it's a replacement for either front squats or deadlifts, it's something different to both.

That's basically what I was getting at.
It's assistance for both, but it's lesser than either imo.
When I see people who permanently opt for trap bar over deadlifts. I can't can't help but feel a lot of them are doing it to stronebtge ego with more weight on the bar.

....... · 14-03-2019 1:42pm

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

Also, locking your shoulders back and down is important.

I call it "packing your shoulders" - and its important for lots of exercises yet its not often mentioned.

I see LOADS of people not packing their shoulders when they should be.

Brian? · 14-03-2019 1:46pm

Mellor wrote: »

That's basically what I was getting at.
It's assistance for both, but it's lesser than either imo.
When I see people who permanently opt for trap bar over deadlifts. I can't can't help but feel a lot of them are doing it to stronebtge ego with more weight on the bar.

Stroke the ego? Some quality typos in your last couple of post

.

I agree. I’m sure there are some fairly legitimate reasons to trap bar deadlift, I’m not sure what they are though. The only time I’ve done them for an extended period was because my gym got one and I liked the novelty.

Brian? · 14-03-2019 1:49pm

....... wrote: »

I call it "packing your shoulders" - and its important for lots of exercises yet its not often mentioned.

I see LOADS of people not packing their shoulders when they should be.

I have terrible trouble with doing it for heavy benches. I think it’s purely mental.

It’s a fairly important part of the deadlift as well. I often whisper “back and down” when I grip the bar. I’d say people think I’ve lost it.

....... · 14-03-2019 1:52pm

Brian? wrote: »

I have terrible trouble with doing it for heavy benches. I think it’s purely mental.

It’s a fairly important part of the deadlift as well. I often whisper “back and down” when I grip the bar. I’d say people think I’ve lost it.

Yes, I am a woman and I dont bench much but I do deadlift and it is very important.

When deadlifting I dont even whisper, I say out loud (through gritted teeth usually), "shoulders back now be the hinge, be the hinge"

Mind you on the treadmill I say "be the T1000, be the T1000" so they all think Im just some weird old woman in my gym anyway.

Mellor · 14-03-2019 1:57pm

Brian? wrote: »

Stroke the ego? Some quality typos in your last couple of post .

I openly admit I have some weird autocorrect typos when I'm phone posting. Butnthat wasn't one if them.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/stroke+ego

Alf Veedersane · 14-03-2019 2:00pm

Mellor wrote: »

I openly admit I have some weird autocorrect typos when I'm phone posting. Butnthat wasn't one if them.

https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/stroke+ego

What he probably meant is that what you intended to say 'stroke their ego' actually appeared as 'stronebtge ego'. Which means your autocorrect language may well be Scandinavian.

Mellor · 14-03-2019 2:14pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

What he probably meant is that what you intended to say 'stroke their ego' actually appeared as 'stronebtge ego'. Which means your autocorrect language may well be Scandinavian.

Ah right, lol. I didn't even notice that. I thought he was laughing a stroke being a euphemism.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQqCW7C0hfEARBuYT1hmGJjNtEFkhG-Xo7opMgJyqIRYkZ2vQMX

IvoryTower · 14-03-2019 2:56pm

I alternate the trap bar deadlift with RDL. I also heard from a couple of PT's and I've seen it on videos that its a good alternative so I hope they're right! I find the standard deadlift really awkward, not worth the hassle for me when i'm only lifting to supplement my running

Mr. CooL ICE · 14-03-2019 3:11pm

Brian? wrote: »

I have terrible trouble with doing it for heavy benches. I think it’s purely mental.

It’s a fairly important part of the deadlift as well. I often whisper “back and down” when I grip the bar. I’d say people think I’ve lost it.

What works *for me* is when the bar is in the top position, keep the arms locked out and I try to touch my nipples up to the bar. Really engages my lats and put the shoulder joint in the right position.

However, keeping the shoulder in place throughout the rest of the lift is something I struggle to get right 100% of the time.

Brian? · 14-03-2019 3:20pm

Mark Rippetoe wrote: »

What works *for me* is when the bar is in the top position, keep the arms locked out and I try to touch my nipples up to the bar. Really engages my lats and put the shoulder joint in the right position.

However, keeping the shoulder in place throughout the rest of the lift is something I struggle to get right 100% of the time.

That's not a bad way to think about it all. Thanks

Armand Tamzarian · 14-03-2019 4:40pm

Theres been some interesting research on Trap Bar Vs Straight Bar Deadlifts.

They are a lot closer to a conventional deadlift than a squat or a front squat.

Greg Nuckols has an article on the info here.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

Personally i like the trap bar. I also like conventional deadlifts.

I certainly wouldn't be ruling out one over the other.

Alf Veedersane · 14-03-2019 4:54pm

IvoryTower wrote: »

I alternate the trap bar deadlift with RDL. I also heard from a couple of PT's and I've seen it on videos that its a good alternative so I hope they're right! I find the standard deadlift really awkward, not worth the hassle for me when i'm only lifting to supplement my running

There's less spinal loading on the trap bar deadlift, which is why it's probably used more than conventional deadlift by athletes. There was a study published in the Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research that looked muscle activation (using EMG) and peak power, force and velocity. The different muscle activation patterns observed suggested the trap bar deadlift may be more effective at developing maximal force, power, and velocity, which would be why an athlete might use them over a conventional deadlift.

But I don't think trap bar deadlifts exclusively is necessarily a better option than some conventional deadlift involvement.

....... · 14-03-2019 5:49pm

Armand Tamzarian wrote: »

Personally i like the trap bar. I also like conventional deadlifts.

I rarely find a trap bar that I like.

I find the fixed position less comfortable than just plain deadlifting.

It might just be that Im quite a short female and trap bars are designed for the average male.

Or it might be that my previous knee surgeries give me a bit of gyp using it.

Im not really sure. I do farmers walk it but I rarely deadlift/squat with it.

Eoinbmw · 14-03-2019 7:14pm

For some reason on heavy trap bar deads i get straining in my lower chest!
Its also a lot harder to break off the floor as the trap bar is seriously stiff so i think that carries over to conventional in helping you generate more force from the ground!
Its also a decent way to overload as i can pull a good bit more weight with the high handle on the trap bar so is benefits me on the top end and lockout!

coffee_cake · 14-03-2019 8:39pm

I've literally never tried the trap bar

Mr. CooL ICE · 14-03-2019 10:03pm

bluewolf wrote: »

I've literally never tried the trap bar

I once picked one up loaded with 20kg of plates and moved it out of the way. Aside from that, same

Dtp1979 · 16-03-2019 10:46am

bluewolf wrote: »

I've literally never tried the trap bar

I wouldn’t recommend. The risk Dosent outweigh the reward

silverharp · 16-03-2019 11:03am

Armand Tamzarian wrote: »

Theres been some interesting research on Trap Bar Vs Straight Bar Deadlifts.

They are a lot closer to a conventional deadlift than a squat or a front squat.

Greg Nuckols has an article on the info here.

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

Personally i like the trap bar. I also like conventional deadlifts.

I certainly wouldn't be ruling out one over the other.

thanks, that was an interesting read a very positive assessment. basically my goal is to have the "health" benefits of resistance training and what appealed to me about the hex lift is that you are lifting the weight through your center instead of in front of you and that means less stress on the body and requires less skill

. ive started adding farmer's walks with them as well so its ready to go.

Alf Veedersane · 16-03-2019 11:05am

silverharp wrote: »

but one specific thing in relation to protecting the shoulder was to never have your elbow go behind the plane of your body, so for example Bench Press don’t let the bar touch your chest as you are putting your shoulders at risk, is that a valid one

I don't think that's valid as a general rule. If the full ROM is causing shoulder pain, then maybe consider it. But I would venture that some people experiencing shoulder pain might want to look at their technique.

It's one thing modifying the bench press if you're feeling pain but to do it to prevent possible shoulder pain...I don't think so.

silverharp · 16-03-2019 11:07am

Eoinbmw wrote: »

For some reason on heavy trap bar deads i get straining in my lower chest!
Its also a lot harder to break off the floor as the trap bar is seriously stiff so i think that carries over to conventional in helping you generate more force from the ground!
Its also a decent way to overload as i can pull a good bit more weight with the high handle on the trap bar so is benefits me on the top end and lockout!

fwiiw ive seen a few comments saying that people got over a DL plateau by switching to a hex for a while and switching back

Alf Veedersane · 16-03-2019 12:06pm

silverharp wrote: »

fwiiw ive seen a few comments saying that people got over a DL plateau by switching to a hex for a while and switching back

It depends on the purpose. If you switched to trap bar deadlift to work on leg drive, for example, then there would be carry over to conventional deadlift. But there isn't necessarily a carry over. You would program trap bar deadlifts for a specific purpose rather than just including them as a variation because they're similar movements.

From the perspective of training the deadlift, I mean.

Eoinbmw · 16-03-2019 12:27pm

A decent article here https://www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/

Mink · 19-03-2019 2:11pm

To minimize injuring my lower back I make sure to really foam roll out my legs, glutes and lats. As soon as they get too tight then my lower back gets very tight after a workout and I am more at danger of “putting it out”.

Generally a lot of good stretching, foam rolling and mobility work outside of gym and then a good sweaty warm up before the work out. This has kept me injury free for the longest time.

Oh and really bracing my core - whether attempting something heavy at gym AND at home.

silverharp · 19-03-2019 6:41pm

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think that's valid as a general rule. If the full ROM is causing shoulder pain, then maybe consider it. But I would venture that some people experiencing shoulder pain might want to look at their technique.

It's one thing modifying the bench press if you're feeling pain but to do it to prevent possible shoulder pain...I don't think so.

The point i had come across (which maybe wrong) was that at the low point of a bp you are trying to lift a heavy weight where the chest muscles are at their weakest.?

As it happens I was doing combined dumbbell curl and press at the weekend, I liked the extra instability that it created

Alf Veedersane · 19-03-2019 7:11pm

silverharp wrote: »

The point i had come across (which maybe wrong) was that at the low point of a bp you are trying to lift a heavy weight where the chest muscles are at their weakest.?

And other muscles come into it. 'Weak' shoulder muscles (at the front) are one of the reasons people fail a bench off the chest.

But avoiding the range of motion where certain muscles are at their weakest is a sure fire way to create imbalances

Minimising injury risk in the gym?

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