The state of comments online about road traffic deaths and cycling

beauf · 30-09-2020 10:39am

People have to want space less dominated by cars. Thus far they don't.

Unless its gets a momentum behind it, like the changes for equality etc. Its not going to change.

Thelonious Monk · 30-09-2020 10:48am

beauf wrote: »

People have to want space less dominated by cars. Thus far they don't.

Unless its gets a momentum behind it, like the changes for equality etc. Its not going to change.

Some do, some dont, it still doesn't justify the vitriol out there.

beauf · 30-09-2020 10:59am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Some do, some don't, it still doesn't justify the vitriol out there.

A lot of that is armchair warriors getting their jollies from winding people up.

07Lapierre · 30-09-2020 1:20pm

beauf wrote: »

People have to want space less dominated by cars. Thus far they don't.

Unless its gets a momentum behind it, like the changes for equality etc. Its not going to change.

It’s a vicious circle. People “want” cars because we’ve engineered it that way. Introducing bike lanes, widening pavements etc is just the start. We need to encourage people to live and work locally, so that kids can cycle or walk to school and parents can get by with one family car. None of this will happen until people want it to happen and it certainly won’t happen in our lifetime.

beauf · 30-09-2020 1:48pm

Depends how you plan your life. You can choose to live beside schools and public transport. People move for work etc.

But yeah all the dots have to line up...

Thelonious Monk · 30-09-2020 3:22pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

It’s a vicious circle. People “want” cars because we’ve engineered it that way. Introducing bike lanes, widening pavements etc is just the start. We need to encourage people to live and work locally, so that kids can cycle or walk to school and parents can get by with one family car. None of this will happen until people want it to happen and it certainly won’t happen in our lifetime.

I can't see how this can ever happen in rural/small town Ireland with one offs and ribbon development, but I think they are happy to drive everywhere. There's less excuse for driving everywhere in Dublin and Cork and other urban areas, and this is where the real traffic chaos is.

07Lapierre · 30-09-2020 4:10pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I can't see how this can ever happen in rural/small town Ireland with one offs and ribbon development, but I think they are happy to drive everywhere. There's less excuse for driving everywhere in Dublin and Cork and other urban areas, and this is where the real traffic chaos is.

Agreed. That's what i mean by "we've engineered it that way". Example, a lot of people commute by car into Dublin for Naas, Dunboyne, Kells etc. they were lured/forced to live in these towns due the lack of affordable housing in Dublin. It will take generations to solve this problem.

07Lapierre · 30-09-2020 4:12pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah more PT between Limerick and Cork will solve the fundamental problem of Charleville in that everything goes down the main street.

A fast efficient, affordable rail link would remove a lot of vehicles from the roads.

beauf · 30-09-2020 4:13pm

There are two issues here.

#1 The actual issues.
#2 The media feeding the trolls.

Just filter out #2, don't read it.

Thelonious Monk · 30-09-2020 4:37pm

beauf wrote: »

There are two issues here.

#1 The actual issues.
#2 The media feeding the trolls.

Just filter out #2, don't read it.

The problem is that when the media feeds the trolls it makes the actual issues harder to solve and much more likely to be ignored to keep the status quo

Blazer · 30-09-2020 4:45pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

We don't know the details but I would wager the anti-pedestrian layout of the town is responsible for this man's death. Most towns in Ireland are like this, planning disasters.

You’re talking complete and utter horse****e.
The problem is most people are ****in morons who are too lazy to walk to the several pedestrian crossings in Charleville and just blindly cross a road that has a constant flow of traffic from 7am to 8pm because it’s the main road for Limerick-Cork-Waterford etc.
The clown before you said it was a street you could put your foot down and rip down the Main Street if you wanted to. That guy obviously has never been to Charleville because if he had and saw it he’d know no one would even attempt to do that.
What the council or NRA should be doing is improving the back road around Charleville and diverting all traffic going through Charleville on this route and dramatically decreasing the flow itself through the town.

SeanW · 30-09-2020 5:06pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Yeah more PT between Limerick and Cork will solve the fundamental problem of Charleville in that everything goes down the main street.

The idea is indeed completely bonkers, yet it seems as though all the cyclists (at least the ones here) believe that Charlevilles' Main Street can function effectively as a street when it's also *clearly* a key national main road.

07Lapierre wrote: »

It’s a vicious circle. People “want” cars because we’ve engineered it that way. Introducing bike lanes, widening pavements etc is just the start. We need to encourage people to live and work locally, so that kids can cycle or walk to school and parents can get by with one family car. None of this will happen until people want it to happen and it certainly won’t happen in our lifetime.

It's got little to do with engineering and more to do with inherent advantages.

With a car, a person can go from any place, to any other place, at any time of the day or night, carrying as much luggage (within reason) as they need. Such a thing will always have use.

The problem occurs when you have too many people trying to do the exact same thing at the same time (e.g. a lot of people trying to use their car to go from a suburban hinterland into a main city for 9AM and leaving again at 5-6PM). In cities, providing alternatives like public transport is key, owing to density and other factors.

07Lapierre · 30-09-2020 6:44pm

SeanW wrote: »

It's got little to do with engineering and more to do with inherent advantages.

With a car, a person can go from any place, to any other place, at any time of the day or night, carrying as much luggage (within reason) as they need. Such a thing will always have use.

The problem occurs when you have too many people trying to do the exact same thing at the same time (e.g. a lot of people trying to use their car to go from a suburban hinterland into a main city for 9AM and leaving again at 5-6PM). In cities, providing alternatives like public transport is key, owing to density and other factors.

Maybe engineering was the wrong word.. maybe it would be more accurate to say that due to bad planning, corruption and greed, we've ended up in this mess where a lot of people have no option but to commune long distances by car in and out of Dublin (and Cork, Galway, Limerick) etc. The problem can't be fixed by getting people to drive in and out at different times. It can only be fixed by reducing the need for people to drive in the first place.

At the moment, the Irish people don't want to stop driving. As a nation we're addicted to our cars. The Americans will ban guns before Irish people give up their car keys.

Thelonious Monk · 30-09-2020 6:59pm

Blazer wrote: »

You’re talking complete and utter horse****e.
The problem is most people are ****in morons who are too lazy to walk to the several pedestrian crossings in Charleville and just blindly cross a road that has a constant flow of traffic from 7am to 8pm because it’s the main road for Limerick-Cork-Waterford etc.
The clown before you said it was a street you could put your foot down and rip down the Main Street if you wanted to. That guy obviously has never been to Charleville because if he had and saw it he’d know no one would even attempt to do that.
What the council or NRA should be doing is improving the back road around Charleville and diverting all traffic going through Charleville on this route and dramatically decreasing the flow itself through the town.

Chillax.

patrickbrophy18 · 30-09-2020 7:43pm

Firstly, RIP to the deceased and their family, friends and loved ones.

The problem which permeates all road user groups (and I suspect is the cause of death being talked about here) is a lack of observation. In a lot of cases, it is caused by a sense of entitlement while in others, it is just zombie road users.

Seriously, the amount of pedestrians (mainly adults) who cross the road with their heads buried in their phones or just step out in front of moving traffic is mind blowing. I see numerous drivers (including those who drive for a living) on their phones while in motion. Finally, there are the proverbial cyclists who break traffic lights and travel against the flow of one-way systems, etc.

Many of these traits seem to have been exacerbated by the current pandemic. However, in general, I wonder what makes Ireland so special where the rules of the road are frequently flouted by members of each road user group?

Then again, loads of people in this country outsource the responsibilities of their actions to the government and motorists instead of good old self responsibility*.

*:I do make exceptions for people with moderate to severe mental and physical disabilities for obvious reasons.

07Lapierre · 30-09-2020 8:40pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I wonder what makes Ireland so special where the rules of the road are frequently flouted by members of each road user group?
.

Lack of enforcement of the ROTR?
Insufficient penalties for those who are caught breaking the ROTR?
Lack of investment in descent infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians?
Lack of political will to change the status quo?

Spook_ie · 01-10-2020 12:40am

07Lapierre wrote: »

A fast efficient, affordable rail link would remove a lot of vehicles from the roads.

So build a rail system to get you from A-B, what happens if it's A-C and the rail doesn't go there?

Anyway far cheaper to just build a by pass

Spook_ie · 01-10-2020 12:53am

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Firstly, RIP to the deceased and their family, friends and loved ones.

The problem which permeates all road user groups (and I suspect is the cause of death being talked about here) is a lack of observation. In a lot of cases, it is caused by a sense of entitlement while in others, it is just zombie road users.

Seriously, the amount of pedestrians (mainly adults) who cross the road with their heads buried in their phones or just step out in front of moving traffic is mind blowing. I see numerous drivers (including those who drive for a living) on their phones while in motion. Finally, there are the proverbial cyclists who break traffic lights and travel against the flow of one-way systems, etc.

Many of these traits seem to have been exacerbated by the current pandemic. However, in general, I wonder what makes Ireland so special where the rules of the road are frequently flouted by members of each road user group?

Then again, loads of people in this country outsource the responsibilities of their actions to the government and motorists instead of good old self responsibility*.

*:I do make exceptions for people with moderate to severe mental and physical disabilities for obvious reasons.

This coincidentally in Charleville

How far to go to a crossing?

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 9:20am

Spook_ie wrote: »

So build a rail system to get you from A-B, what happens if it's A-C and the rail doesn't go there?

Anyway far cheaper to just build a by pass

Yep... that's what got us into this mess...always taking the cheaper option.

91wx763 · 01-10-2020 10:17am

Spook_ie wrote: »

This coincidentally in Charleville

How far to go to a crossing?

Never the let truth get in the way etc....

Spook_ie · 01-10-2020 11:05am

07Lapierre wrote: »

Yep... that's what got us into this mess...always taking the cheaper option.

And the A-C option is covered by what?

Blazer · 01-10-2020 11:09am

91wx763 wrote: »

Never the let truth get in the way etc....

There’s a crossing at that traffic light.
Simply walk down 20 yards and push the button.
It’s not too damn hard.

JimmyVik · 01-10-2020 11:19am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I am both and I don't think I hate myself

I am both and I hate the cyclist me

Sometimes I do go a bit overboard on OTHER motorists as if they are a disease on society. I dont include my motorist self in those though

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 1:05pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

And the A-C option is covered by what?

It’s covered by existing roads. The idea is the roads would have less traffic as some people would us the train.

Spook_ie · 01-10-2020 1:41pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

It’s covered by existing roads. The idea is the roads would have less traffic as some people would us the train.

Right, so you use a train from A-B and then the roads from B-C, fine, so just how do you actually get from B-C, build new tram lines, bus routes all of which go when you want them and where you want them to?

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 2:00pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Right, so you use a train from A-B and then the roads from B-C, fine, so just how do you actually get from B-C, build new tram lines, bus routes all of which go when you want them and where you want them to?

Clearly if the train doesn't go to C, then in that situation you would jump into your car and drive (or cycle or walk or get a taxi?. you didn't specify a location, the distance, the reason for the journey, how many are travelling etc. etc.)

if we take the example of Charleville. Its on the N20 between Limerick and Cork. I think its a safe bet that the vast majority of the traffic in Charleville is people travelling to/from Limerick and Cork. if more of them took the train.. their would be no reason to build another by-pass? and remember, you'd also need to bypass Mallow. Building a by-pass simply moves the bottle-neck from one town to the next and it also results in more traffic.

By hey.. don't worry. You are correct in that they will eventually build a new Motorway between Limerick and Cork. Then, just like Dublin, a few years later, they'll add a 3rd lane in each direction, then a few years after that, they'll upgrade the junctions, then finally they'll add electronic tolls etc.

Spook_ie · 01-10-2020 2:08pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Clearly if the train doesn't go to C, then in that situation you would jump into your car and drive (or cycle or walk or get a taxi?. you didn't specify a location, the distance, the reason for the journey, how many are travelling etc. etc.)

if we take the example of Charleville. Its on the N20 between Limerick and Cork. I think its a safe bet that the vast majority of the traffic in Charleville is people travelling to/from Limerick and Cork. if more of them took the train.. their would be no reason to build another by-pass? and remember, you'd also need to bypass Mallow. Building a by-pass simply moves the bottle-neck from one town to the next and it also results in more traffic.

By hey.. don't worry. You are correct in that they will eventually build a new Motorway between Limerick and Cork. Then, just like Dublin, a few years later, they'll add a 3rd lane in each direction, then a few years after that, they'll upgrade the junctions, then finally they'll add electronic tolls etc.

So the train is going to remove only the cars that were (almost literally) travelling from one station to the other, doesn't seem a flier to me, maybe you should start asking for heliports?

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 2:58pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

So the train is going to remove only the cars that were (almost literally) travelling from one station to the other, doesn't seem a flier to me, maybe you should start asking for heliports?

Your not the only one with that view. Which is why we will get more roads, more cars, more trucks, more traffic.

magicbastarder · 01-10-2020 3:08pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

So the train is going to remove only the cars that were (almost literally) travelling from one station to the other, doesn't seem a flier to me

i'm coming in late to this, why is this the case? we know trains work, the maynooth line was way over capacity before lockdown (not sure what it's like now).
people were willing to get the train even if it didn't offer a door to door service in many places, not sure why that's not a factor here?

Stepping Stone · 01-10-2020 3:35pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm coming in late to this, why is this the case? we know trains work, the maynooth line was way over capacity before lockdown (not sure what it's like now).
people were willing to get the train even if it didn't offer a door to door service in many places, not sure why that's not a factor here?

The rail service from Cork to Limerick is the issue. You get on in Cork, stop or change in Mallow, onto Limerick Junction. You have to change there, then it’s onto Limerick City. That’s 2 or 3 trains, depending on when you go. You inevitably end up waiting on a platform to change somewhere. That’s just assuming that you want to go from city centre to city centre. Alternatively, you can hop into your own car, be warm, comfortable and in control your environment and be there in the same amount of time. That’s building in stopping in traffic in Charleville. It’s a no brainer for most people since they don’t start or end at the stations. They inevitably have to travel to them, possibly park, etc. It’s not worth it at all. Cork to Dublin by train works really well but this one doesn’t. In pretty much the same way that Cork to Tralee doesn’t work well either.

The thing is, encouraging people onto public transport doesn’t do anything for the huge amount of freight and other commercial traffic on that road. Charleville does need a bypass . It’s probably a nice town, but much in common with a lot of these places, I would never stop there because it would take too long to get back on the road again.

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 3:41pm

Stepping Stone wrote: »

The rail service from Cork to Limerick is the issue. You get on in Cork, stop or change in Mallow, onto Limerick Junction. You have to change there, then it’s onto Limerick City. That’s 2 or 3 trains, depending on when you go. You inevitably end up waiting on a platform to change somewhere. That’s just assuming that you want to go from city centre to city centre. Alternatively, you can hop into your own car, be warm, comfortable and in control your environment and be there in the same amount of time. That’s building in stopping in traffic in Charleville. It’s a no brainer for most people since they don’t start or end at the stations. They inevitably have to travel to them, possibly park, etc. It’s not worth it at all. Cork to Dublin by train works really well but this one doesn’t. In pretty much the same way that Cork to Tralee doesn’t work well either.

The thing is, encouraging people onto public transport doesn’t do anything for the huge amount of freight and other commercial traffic on that road. Charleville does need a bypass . It’s probably a nice town, but much in common with a lot of these places, I would never stop there because it would take too long to get back on the road again.

Which is why so many people drive and why i'm saying we should invest in better public transport and not more roads. If only trains could take freight as well as passengers?

Seth Brundle · 01-10-2020 3:51pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

If only trains could take freight as well as passengers?

I don't think Irish Rail want the hassle of freight.
Mind you, sometimes I think they don't want the hassle of passengers either!

Stepping Stone · 01-10-2020 4:00pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Which is why so many people drive and why i'm saying we should invest in better public transport and not more roads. If only trains could take freight as well as passengers?

Irish Rail made the decision to get out of freight years ago but realistically, that wouldn’t sort the Charleville issue. There’s a Lidl or Aldi distribution centre just outside the town, there’s a Dairygold factory in the town, plus numerous other businesses that rely on road transportation.

I honestly don’t think that they want passengers on that line. Cork to Dublin seems to be as much as they want. They should offer a commuter service from Cork to Limerick, stopping in Mallow and Charleville on the way, but because it’s an intercity line, the prices are really high and there’s realistically a much better option for people, which is the car. That’s not even factoring in the timetables either. Sad but true fact. I would always choose the train where possible but I wouldn’t even consider it to go to between Limerick and Cork.

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 4:08pm

Stepping Stone wrote: »

Irish Rail made the decision to get out of freight years ago but realistically, that wouldn’t sort the Charleville issue. There’s a Lidl or Aldi distribution centre just outside the town, there’s a Dairygold factory in the town, plus numerous other businesses that rely on road transportation.

I honestly don’t think that they want passengers on that line. Cork to Dublin seems to be as much as they want. They should offer a commuter service from Cork to Limerick, stopping in Mallow and Charleville on the way, but because it’s an intercity line, the prices are really high and there’s realistically a much better option for people, which is the car. That’s not even factoring in the timetables either. Sad but true fact. I would always choose the train where possible but I wouldn’t even consider it to go to between Limerick and Cork.

Agree. The last time i was on the train i can only describe it as a horrendous experience! It was December and the carriage was freezing and the lights weren't working. Hours sitting in a dark, cold train (and having paid a fortune for the privilege) is not something i would do again.

Stepping Stone · 01-10-2020 4:39pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Agree. The last time i was on the train i can only describe it as a horrendous experience! It was December and the carriage was freezing and the lights weren't working. Hours sitting in a dark, cold train (and having paid a fortune for the privilege) is not something i would do again.

It’s awful. They’re doing a dismal job of getting people on the train. If I get the train to Dublin, the 6am train is the best option. It’s quiet and calm. Another hour and it’s heaving. Give it a few hours and it’s really rough, with absolutely no staff to do anything. Realistically, they need bouncers. I have gone Cork to Limerick return on the train and it’s just a bad service. It shouldn’t be, but it is. I don’t know how it can be solved at this stage, because there seems to be seriously entrenched thinking in Irish Rail.

Spook_ie · 01-10-2020 5:00pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

Agree. The last time i was on the train i can only describe it as a horrendous experience! It was December and the carriage was freezing and the lights weren't working. Hours sitting in a dark, cold train (and having paid a fortune for the privilege) is not something i would do again.

Should have cycled it.

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 7:28pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

Should have cycled it.

I have! It was part of a club weekend away. Great craic

07Lapierre · 01-10-2020 9:09pm

We can only dream!

https://twitter.com/cyclistie/status/1311757369458778114?s=21

SeanW · 02-10-2020 10:42pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm coming in late to this, why is this the case? we know trains work, the maynooth line was way over capacity before lockdown (not sure what it's like now).
people were willing to get the train even if it didn't offer a door to door service in many places, not sure why that's not a factor here?

Public transport is a very good thing to have in large cities because there will be a lot of people trying to do much the same thing. Not just the Maynooth line, but both Luas lines, the entire coastal DART line and the Southwestern Commuter service were, pre-pandemic, all very heavily over-subscribed. I was at the coalface of it for years, a complete mess. And I dare say that (pandemic excluded) if DART underground, Metro North and the Finglas Luas were built and in operation, they would be well utilised by people today.

The reason why is that you have a lot of people trying to do much the same thing as all the others - travel from suburbs hopefully near train/tram stations, to the city centre and back, for both commuting and other reasons for travel travel inside the city, or between the city and its hinterlands.

Regional and inter-regional travel is a different problem domain. Regional and inter-regional travel is more likely some random person going from some random place to some other random place at some random time, or involve freight that is also travelling between random places in small amounts.

07Lapierre wrote: »

Which is why so many people drive and why i'm saying we should invest in better public transport and not more roads. If only trains could take freight as well as passengers?

Freight rail is usually only efficient if you have large volumes of point-to-point freight. If you're a Toyota dealer in Ohio and you're going import 1,000,000 Toyotas from Japan, it makes sense to take them at the Port of California, put them on auto-racks and send them by rail to Ohio. Or if you run a coal mine in West Virgina and have to ship 20,000 tons of coal to a power plant in Indiana. It also helps the more these types of flows exist, it better justifies having a rail freight business.

You don't tend to have such flows in Ireland. Ergo, the question must be raised as to why trucks should continue to be forced through tows like Charleville, because again, it's very likely that in the accident Thelonius referred to, that the truck driver did not have any business in the town but simply had to go through it. If that is the case, then the M20 would have saved the pedestrians life - as motorways do.

07Lapierre wrote: »

At the moment, the Irish people don't want to stop driving. As a nation we're addicted to our cars. The Americans will ban guns before Irish people give up their car keys.

I think people in other countries would find the idea that Irish people are unique or even noteworthy in owning/using cars to be questionable, if not outright bizarre.

But that seems to be the wont of cyclists in this country. Crapping on Irish people for no reason whatsoever or things that are common across the world. Usually verging on demonisation out of all proportion to reality.

07Lapierre wrote: »

Your not the only one with that view. Which is why we will get more roads, more cars, more trucks, more traffic.

Please show us a section of motorway in Ireland, outside the main cities (e.g. the M50, the M7 from Kildare towards Dublin) that is congested?

Motorways tend to work very well for the small towns far from cities that they bypass. Abbeyleix, Loughrea, Ballinasloe etc were all towns that were strangled with through traffic, now with motorways, the towns can breathe and the motorways that bypass them work well. Charleville should have had the same, 10-20 years ago.

dashcamdanny · 04-10-2020 11:31am

My son cycles to school everyday, I cycle with him at the weekend away from busy roads in parks and such. I use a car to commute as Irish weather is not compatible with cycles IMO. Reading the comments on FB when it was announced there would be more funding for cycle infrastructure , I was actually shocked. The usual crap about tax and insurance for bikes. Raw hate. What is very apparent is how fanatical each side was. Like the usual posters here I suppose. You either go to bed with little bicycles or little cars on your hat and pyjamas. It's pathetic TBH
And this, in my opinion is part of the problem.

People spiting at eachother online, trying to shame or humiliate the people they argue against. Instead of trying to win them over to their way of thinking.

It's not hard to understand that what is really needed is complete segregation. (Both online and the road) But I see that the very militant cycle and anti cycle posters fail miserably on agreeing on this point . And turns into the same old same old. Crap fling contest.

My opinion is that major money needs spent on widening roads to accommodate cycles. And not impede on pedestrians or cars and buses. With a priority on school and child safety. Commute routes last as they are supposed to be a bit more sensible. Why are car owners so against this? It's a win/win for everyone.

Surely this is simple common sense?

Thelonious Monk · 04-10-2020 8:20pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

My son cycles to school everyday, I cycle with him at the weekend away from busy roads in parks and such. I use a car to commute as Irish weather is not compatible with cycles IMO. Reading the comments on FB when it was announced there would be more funding for cycle infrastructure , I was actually shocked. The usual crap about tax and insurance for bikes. Raw hate. What is very apparent is how fanatical each side was. Like the usual posters here I suppose. You either go to bed with little bicycles or little cars on your hat and pyjamas. It's pathetic TBH
And this, in my opinion is part of the problem.

People spiting at eachother online, trying to shame or humiliate the people they argue against. Instead of trying to win them over to their way of thinking.

It's not hard to understand that what is really needed is complete segregation. (Both online and the road) But I see that the very militant cycle and anti cycle posters fail miserably on agreeing on this point . And turns into the same old same old. Crap fling contest.

My opinion is that major money needs spent on widening roads to accommodate cycles. And not impede on pedestrians or cars and buses. With a priority on school and child safety. Commute routes last as they are supposed to be a bit more sensible. Why are car owners so against this? It's a win/win for everyone.

Surely this is simple common sense?

I don't think it's possible to improve cycling infrastructure without getting rid of car park spaces and making some more roads one way and maybe having less lanes for cars.
I have to say that the hate towards cyclists isn't really reciprocated by cyclists as most of us also drive. You don't get cyclists on car crash articles blaming drivers and enjoying the fact that people have died, I see this all the time on articles about cycling deaths.
I'm just trying to ignore it now, it genuinely upsets me. The infrastructure for cyclists is slowly improving in Dublin anyway, so hopefully it keeps going that way and we have less accidents.

Duckjob · 09-10-2020 2:30pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

My son cycles to school everyday, I cycle with him at the weekend away from busy roads in parks and such. I use a car to commute as Irish weather is not compatible with cycles IMO. Reading the comments on FB when it was announced there would be more funding for cycle infrastructure , I was actually shocked. The usual crap about tax and insurance for bikes. Raw hate. What is very apparent is how fanatical each side was. Like the usual posters here I suppose. You either go to bed with little bicycles or little cars on your hat and pyjamas. It's pathetic TBH
And this, in my opinion is part of the problem.

People spiting at eachother online, trying to shame or humiliate the people they argue against. Instead of trying to win them over to their way of thinking.

It's not hard to understand that what is really needed is complete segregation. (Both online and the road) But I see that the very militant cycle and anti cycle posters fail miserably on agreeing on this point . And turns into the same old same old. Crap fling contest.

My opinion is that major money needs spent on widening roads to accommodate cycles. And not impede on pedestrians or cars and buses. With a priority on school and child safety. Commute routes last as they are supposed to be a bit more sensible. Why are car owners so against this? It's a win/win for everyone.

Surely this is simple common sense?

I would tend to agree with you regarding the segregation. Some folks seem to want to assert the "right" to mix it with motorised traffic. Me? I see so much crazy sh*t* on the roads these days that I tend to like to keep as much distance between me and traffic where possible.

In NL they have reached in a point of maturity in their culture where segregation is not needed everywhere anymore and many streets are now shared with cars, (albeit with low speed limits enforced by good street design).

Unfortunately we're quite a bit behind and segregation is a good way to "brute force" in the culture change that is needed.
ie. better segregration means more of the population feel safe to get on a bike, means more of the people in cars either ride a bike as well or have family/friends who do, means the mindset of bitter irrational hatred (where we are now) gets consigned to the scrapheap where it belongs.

I would take some issue with the first part of your post because while its very true that there's extreme views on both sides, it's far from a level playing field, because once out on the road, the power balance is very, very skewed.

As a motorist, I have the luxury of driving down the road and not having to give a flying f**k what people on bikes might think of me. Even if they absolutely hate me on sight, they're practically of 0% danger to me. I don't have that luxury if I'm on a bike.

If people see me on a bike, and are triggered with an irrational hatred for me because of the perceived crimes of the "group" I involuntarily represent, and let that hatred impact on the standard of their driving and my safety, then that's a big problem that I have very little control over.

beauf · 09-10-2020 5:27pm

Duckjob wrote: »

I would tend to agree with you regarding the segregation. Some folks seem to want to assert the "right" to mix it with motorised traffic. . ..

Because you need to integrate with motorised traffic for the vast majority of journeys of any length. Remove that right and it would be impossible to cycle most places. What sense does that make.

Duckjob · 09-10-2020 6:11pm

beauf wrote: »

Because you need to integrate with motorised traffic for the vast majority of journeys of any length. Remove that right and it would be impossible to cycle most places. What sense does that make.

None at all. That wasn't the point I was arguing for. It was that with the road culture we've currently got I see crazy stuff happening nearly everytime I go out. While everyone has and *should have* the right to go on the road, my own personal preference tends to be take off-road routes where possible if it helps put some distance between myself and the crazies.

Removing right of way for people on bikes should only be done when there is a high quality alternative that they can use instead. I made the point before how in NL you can see roads that you're not allowed to go on a bike, but anywhere you see that you can turn your head and see a high quality cycle path that takes you where you want to go with no compromise on convenience.

beauf · 09-10-2020 6:23pm

Didn't read like that. But fair enough.

I always say to people getting back on the bike to take advantage of off road stretches, or quieter roads even if it makes the journey longer. No need to go the direct route if it's unpleasant.

07Lapierre · 09-10-2020 8:02pm

On my commute home this evening, I turned off the main road and took the back roads most of the way home. Sooo much more pleasant without close passes! Given a choice I’d always take the quitter routes, but it’s just not possible for most of my usual commute.

Thelonious Monk · 21-10-2020 5:58pm

A teenager killed on the roads this morning, 9 hours ago there was an article posted and we got 1 RIP comment. There was someone hit off a bike last week, injured but didn't die, and we had 80 comments or something mostly giving out about how dangerous cyclists are.
I'll just never be able to comprehend this.

Pinch Flat · 21-10-2020 8:05pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

A teenager killed on the roads this morning, 9 hours ago there was an article posted and we got 1 RIP comment. There was someone hit off a bike last week, injured but didn't die, and we had 80 comments or something mostly giving out about how dangerous cyclists are.
I'll just never be able to comprehend this.

We live in car dominated society and cars are the ultimate expression of the deep seated insecurities that exist in people in a socially immature country like ours with an ingrained culture of victim blaming and reluctance to take personal responsibility. Cycling is considered inferior and the anthesis of all that's wrong with motoring - convenient, cheap, healthy and a virtual certainty of getting from a to b in the same time - weather, schools, summer / winter has little impact.

I can never understand why drivers don't turn their ire towards other drivers - after all, they're the ones they're stuck behind in their (mostly) single occupant cars. They subsidize their fellow drivers insurance with a levy on their policy that covers the €60m in damage uninsured drivers cause annually. They tolerate unaccompanied learner drivers, drunks and drugged drivers, sloppy driving and lazy parking. Speeding is almost seen as some sort of badge of honour - a lot of people see gardai and speed vans as "tax collectors". And you're positively expected to run an amber or late red or else potentially face a tirade of abuse from the motorist behind you who you've "held up". Ironically one of the most common things that irates drivers about cyclists. It's a truly bizarre attitude.

SeanW · 23-10-2020 3:59pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

We live in car dominated society and cars are the ultimate expression of the deep seated insecurities that exist in people in a socially immature country like ours with an ingrained culture of victim blaming and reluctance to take personal responsibility. Cycling is considered inferior and the anthesis of all that's wrong with motoring - convenient, cheap, healthy and a virtual certainty of getting from a to b in the same time - weather, schools, summer / winter has little impact.

I can never understand why drivers don't turn their ire towards other drivers - after all, they're the ones they're stuck behind in their (mostly) single occupant cars. They subsidize their fellow drivers insurance with a levy on their policy that covers the €60m in damage uninsured drivers cause annually. They tolerate unaccompanied learner drivers, drunks and drugged drivers, sloppy driving and lazy parking. Speeding is almost seen as some sort of badge of honour - a lot of people see gardai and speed vans as "tax collectors". And you're positively expected to run an amber or late red or else potentially face a tirade of abuse from the motorist behind you who you've "held up". Ironically one of the most common things that irates drivers about cyclists. It's a truly bizarre attitude.

I've read some unbelievable bilge on these boards but this must be among the most bizarre.

It's almost like you're suggesting that Ireland is the only country in the world where people drive cars. Or you are suggesting that Ireland is the only country in the world in which some drivers do not always follow the law.

Needless to say, that in all of your inane ranting about how Irish drivers are unique in tolerating X, Y and Z, and are "immature" etc. you failed to mention how Irish road safety compares with the rest of the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

I put it to you that given Ireland's ranking in those statistics, that it does not show evidence of unique "deep seated insecurities" or "a socially immature country." In fact, the evidence shows the exact opposite. Unless of course, it is reasonable to expect a "deeply immature" country to have a very good safety record.

Thelonious Monk · 23-10-2020 4:20pm

Pedestrian mowed down yesterday and killed. 2 thoughts and prayers comments.
It's crazy, it's solid proof that there's an irrational hatred of cyclists. We'll see when the next cycling article or accident comes up and everyone goes on about how dangerous cyclists are.

The state of comments online about road traffic deaths and cycling

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