Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

Junkyard Tom · 29-10-2020 10:31am

The border in Ireland was forced through the Irish people, it divides a nation against their will and it will come to an end one way or another.

jm08 · 29-10-2020 11:56am

downcow wrote: »

I think you are wrong. As I say, I wish you were right. I have always thought it was a bit disingenuous of Eire to name the country after the whole landmass even though they share it with part of another country. To use the American analogy again, it would be like the USA calling their country America.
Is there anyone can clarify this form ittakestwo and me as my knowledge on your beautiful country is limited

So you expected that Ireland should have changed its name to facilitate partition? Change the name to what?

PS I thing a lot of people from the USA call their country 'America' and refer to themselves as Americans (which they are).

jh79 · 29-10-2020 11:57am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The border in Ireland was forced through the Irish people, it divides a nation against their will and it will come to an end one way or another.

You suggesting that that the GFA won't be respected if the people of NI continue to prefer to stay in the UK?

jm08 · 29-10-2020 12:06pm

jh79 wrote: »

You suggesting that that the GFA won't be respected if the people of NI continue to prefer to stay in the UK?

The GFA doesn't limit the number of referendums that can be held. I think there can be one every 7 years so it's not in UI supporters interest not to respect the GFA. It might be inpartionist interests though.

blanch152 · 29-10-2020 12:09pm

jm08 wrote: »

The GFA doesn't limit the number of referendums that can be held. I think there can be one every 7 years so it's not in UI supporters interest not to respect the GFA. It might be inpartionist interests though.

Each referendum is subject to the same overarching condition - that the SOS holds one "if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."

If the first referendum is heavily defeated, and there is no obvious change in political mood, there might never be another one.

FrancieBrady · 29-10-2020 12:32pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Each referendum is subject to the same overarching condition - that the SOS holds one "if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland."

If the first referendum is heavily defeated, and there is no obvious change in political mood, there might never be another one.

...and then again, there might be.

What is point here blanch?

downcow · 29-10-2020 12:57pm

jm08 wrote: »

So you expected that Ireland should have changed its name to facilitate partition? Change the name to what?

PS I thing a lot of people from the USA call their country 'America' and refer to themselves as Americans (which they are).

Ittakestwo. I think jmo8 is agreeing with me that the country is officially called Ireland.

..... again I may be wrong jmo8 (but I wasn’t the last time). I thought the country (26 counties) only took on the name Ireland much later than it was formed. I thought it had various names since partition. But as I say my kno we ledge of your beautiful country is limited. (Mind you, at least I know it’s name which it seems some residents don’t )

jh79 · 29-10-2020 1:54pm

jm08 wrote: »

The GFA doesn't limit the number of referendums that can be held. I think there can be one every 7 years so it's not in UI supporters interest not to respect the GFA. It might be inpartionist interests though.

The poster said a UI would happen one way or another, assuming the GFA is one way, I'm curious as to what the other way is?

Junkyard Tom · 29-10-2020 2:06pm

jh79 wrote: »

You suggesting that that the GFA won't be respected if the people of NI continue to prefer to stay in the UK?

The GFA is a road-map to unification. This issue isn't going away, ever.

How the GFA works in essence. We keep having border polls until the people vote for a UI.

Border poll 1: UI 0 - 1 UK
Border poll 2: UI 0 - 1 UK
Border poll 3: UI 1 - 0 UK (all over, no replay)

ittakestwo · 29-10-2020 2:37pm

downcow wrote: »

I think you are wrong. As I say, I wish you were right. I have always thought it was a bit disingenuous of Eire to name the country after the whole landmass even though they share it with part of another country. To use the American analogy again, it would be like the USA calling their country America.
Is there anyone can clarify this for ittakestwo and me as my knowledge on your beautiful country is limited

Anyway regardless of the name of the state. You can refer to anyone from Ireland as irish even tho not all irish (tho they could if chosed) are citzens of the state republic of Ireland.

As your post #1844 say you dont have to refer people by their citzenship as identifys like English or Scottish would mean nothing. If a person is from England you can refer to them as English and if a person is from Ireland you can refer to them as irish by that fact.

Five Eighth · 30-10-2020 11:37pm

Given that it is suggested by the polls that many nationalists born and bred in Northern Ireland would vote to remain within the UK in a referendum, I am would really like to read a post from one of these nationalists outlining their reasons why they would vote in such a way. I believe, as previously posted, that the reason is purely economic e.g. job security, making a living, etc. Maybe, this is not the full story. I would really like to know if there are other reasons why they may make that choice in the referendum. Also, I would like to hear why they believe that Northern Ireland is a success 99 years on. Any takers?

blanch152 · 31-10-2020 12:39am

Five Eighth wrote: »

Given that it is suggested by the polls that many nationalists born and bred in Northern Ireland would vote to remain within the UK in a referendum, I am would really like to read a post from one of these nationalists outlining their reasons why they would vote in such a way. I believe, as previously posted, that the reason is purely economic e.g. job security, making a living, etc. Maybe, this is not the full story. I would really like to know if there are other reasons why they may make that choice in the referendum. Also, I would like to hear why they believe that Northern Ireland is a success 99 years on. Any takers?

Pretty easy, just talk to young people from a nationalist background in the North and many will say that they are happy with the status quo and aren’t as interested in some sentimental aspiration as their ancestors.

Five Eighth · 31-10-2020 12:52am

blanch152 wrote: »

Pretty easy, just talk to young people from a nationalist background in the North and many will say that they are happy with the status quo and aren’t as interested in some sentimental aspiration as their ancestors.

Surely there's at least one such person who could speak for themselves and contribute to the thread?

BonnieSituation · 31-10-2020 1:07am

blanch152 wrote: »

Pretty easy, just talk to young people from a nationalist background in the North and many will say that they are happy with the status quo and aren’t as interested in some sentimental aspiration as their ancestors.

Sounds like you talk to a lot of young Nationalists in the North.

:rolleyes:

downcow · 31-10-2020 6:31am

Five Eighth wrote: »

Given that it is suggested by the polls that many nationalists born and bred in Northern Ireland would vote to remain within the UK in a referendum, I am would really like to read a post from one of these nationalists outlining their reasons why they would vote in such a way. I believe, as previously posted, that the reason is purely economic e.g. job security, making a living, etc. Maybe, this is not the full story. I would really like to know if there are other reasons why they may make that choice in the referendum. Also, I would like to hear why they believe that Northern Ireland is a success 99 years on. Any takers?

It’s a fair question if you did not attach the subjective ‘success’ question. I do think blach has summed up a fair bit of the answer ie living standard and lifestyle are fairly good, nhs etc as shown in the poll, we are part of a very large nation which enables such things as our current furlough system. But more than anything as blanch says, they aren’t interested in rocking the status quo for some 100-year old aspiration that they are not too bothered about. They also have the internet etc so they can access a range of views outside of their narrow community view.
I am not a young nationalist so just my observations.

BonnieSituation · 31-10-2020 2:24pm

downcow wrote: »

It’s a fair question if you did not attach the subjective ‘success’ question. I do think blach has summed up a fair bit of the answer ie living standard and lifestyle are fairly good, nhs etc as shown in the poll, we are part of a very large nation which enables such things as our current furlough system. But more than anything as blanch says, they aren’t interested in rocking the status quo for some 100-year old aspiration that they are not too bothered about. They also have the internet etc so they can access a range of views outside of their narrow community view.
I am not a young nationalist so just my observations.

You are gas.

Five Eighth · 31-10-2020 7:30pm

downcow wrote: »

It’s a fair question if you did not attach the subjective ‘success’ question. I do think blach has summed up a fair bit of the answer ie living standard and lifestyle are fairly good, nhs etc as shown in the poll, we are part of a very large nation which enables such things as our current furlough system. But more than anything as blanch says, they aren’t interested in rocking the status quo for some 100-year old aspiration that they are not too bothered about. They also have the internet etc so they can access a range of views outside of their narrow community view.
I am not a young nationalist so just my observations.

Firstly, i didn't specify that the contributor had to be anything other than a nationalist born and bred in Northern Ireland. Secondly, as you state you are not a 'young nationalist'. Therefore, any chance that Northern Ireland nationalist might be allowed speak for himself/herself. Thank you.

31-10-2020 8:25pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Pretty easy, just talk to young people from a nationalist background in the North and many will say that they are happy with the status quo and aren’t as interested in some sentimental aspiration as their ancestors.

ask them again after jan 1st.

brexit is in the process of changing that status quo.

downcow · 31-10-2020 8:36pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Firstly, i didn't specify that the contributor had to be anything other than a nationalist born and bred in Northern Ireland. Secondly, as you state you are not a 'young nationalist'. Therefore, any chance that Northern Ireland nationalist might be allowed speak for himself/herself. Thank you.

I don’t think the average’young nationalist’ will comment here for the very reason blanch identified ie it’s far down their list of important issues in their life. They are just not interested. They are fine with the status quo. It’s what fitzs poll said and it’s what those of us living in ni just know.
The average young nationalist does not even say ‘the north’, they are happy to buy into ni. It’s not perfect and there are headers on both sides but unfortunately for the old republicans on here, it’s done, over, past. The Ira ensures their will never be unification (at least for several more generations)

Five Eighth · 31-10-2020 9:00pm

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think the average’young nationalist’ will comment here for the very reason blanch identified ie it’s far down their list of important issues in their life. They are just not interested. They are fine with the status quo. It’s what fitzs poll said and it’s what those of us living in ni just know.
The average young nationalist does not even say ‘the north’, they are happy to buy into ni. It’s not perfect and there are headers on both sides but unfortunately for the old republicans on here, it’s done, over, past. The Ira ensures their will never be unification (at least for several more generations)

Any chance you might leave Northern Ireland nationalists speak for themselves?

downcow · 31-10-2020 9:13pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

Any chance you might leave Northern Ireland nationalists speak for themselves?

Don’t get cross with me. I wouldn’t hold your breath for many responses from the young nationalists who are not interested in your old conflict - exactly because they are not interested!

Five Eighth · 31-10-2020 9:18pm

downcow wrote: »

Don’t get cross with me. I wouldn’t hold your breath for many responses from the young nationalists who are not interested in your old conflict - exactly because they are not interested!

You obviously believe that you know the Northern Ireland nationalist mind and are exhibiting a very ageist attitude by continuously emphasising 'young nationals' to the exclusion of the older generation. Is it too much to ask that you might allow Northern Ireland nationalists to decide for themselves whether they wish to contribute to the thread or not. Thank you.

downcow · 31-10-2020 10:06pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

You obviously believe that you know the Northern Ireland nationalist mind and are exhibiting a very ageist attitude by continuously emphasising 'young nationals' to the exclusion of the older generation. Is it too much to ask that you might allow Northern Ireland nationalists to decide for themselves whether they wish to contribute to the thread or not. Thank you.

Wise up. I was responding to your post where you emphasised ‘young nationalist’. Sorry apologies for blocking them posting. I give them an hour or so. No doubt we’ll be inundated

Five Eighth · 31-10-2020 10:21pm

downcow wrote: »

Wise up. I was responding to your post where you emphasised ‘young nationalist’. Sorry apologies for blocking them posting. I give them an hour or so. No doubt we’ll be inundated

'Wise up'? Touching on a patronising and sarcastic tone, i'm afraid. Please refer to original post on this matter #1862 and identify where i "emphasised young nationalist"? It's the prerogative of those Northern Ireland nationalists to decide whether they post or not - if they decide not to, then we'll just move on.

downcow · 31-10-2020 10:50pm

Five Eighth wrote: »

'Wise up'? Touching on a patronising and sarcastic tone, i'm afraid. Please refer to original post on this matter #1862 and identify where i "emphasised young nationalist"? It's the prerogative of those Northern Ireland nationalists to decide whether they post or not - if they decide not to, then we'll just move on.

Too easy to just move on. You need to accept why they don’t care enough to post

Five Eighth · 31-10-2020 11:01pm

downcow wrote: »

Too easy to just move on. You need to accept why they don’t care enough to post

Again you are claiming by your posts that you know the minds of Irish nationalists living in Northern Ireland. I very much doubt if they would concur with your assumption. I agree that the open border facilitated by the ROI and UK membership of the EC meant that many of them were content enough with their lot. Brexit brings a whole new dimension into play. Time will tell.
Also, don't assume you know my mind.

Scoondal · 09-11-2020 8:36pm

Mr Lord John Kilc Looney lives up to his titled name.

Scoondal · 09-11-2020 9:38pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

Britain doesn't want Northern Ireland and a lot of people in Republic of Ireland does not want this dis-functional society to be part of our country.
On 1 January, Northern Ireland will be part of UK, outside EU but part of EU Single Market. A bit of this and a bit of that. Wishey washey.

downcow · 09-11-2020 9:59pm

Scoondal wrote: »

Britain doesn't want Northern Ireland and a lot of people in Republic of Ireland does not want this dis-functional society to be part of our country.
On 1 January, Northern Ireland will be part of UK, outside EU but part of EU Single Market. A bit of this and a bit of that. Wishey washey.

Fitz posted a poll recently demonstrating that every age group living in ni are happy with it. Does it really matter what southerners think? And thanks to the gfa, we control our own destiny. Thank god for the gfa.

Scoondal · 10-11-2020 1:22am

downcow wrote: »

Fitz posted a poll recently demonstrating that every age group living in ni are happy with it. Does it really matter what southerners think? And thanks to the gfa, we control our own destiny. Thank god for the gfa.

Okay, go ahead and control your own destiny. The citizens of The Republic of Ireland are not "southeners". You can keep your own insulting language to your own "country".

downcow · 10-11-2020 7:01am

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay, go ahead and control your own destiny. The citizens of The Republic of Ireland are not "southeners". You can keep your own insulting language to your own "country".

Absolutely unintended insult. I had no idea your people were offended by the term ‘southerners’ .......And if others can confirm that “southerners” is offensive then I will refrain from using a term I have used all my life, unwittingly, and indeed in the company of (I am not sure what to call them now) republic of Irelanders.
Could you tell me what is a handy term I could use to refer to specifically those living in the 26 counties?
It is ironic that your last post you described ‘northerners’ as dysfunctional and wishywashy.
Your main football forum officially refers to the NI football team as ’the Nordies’, which seems like a fair enough nickname to me and not particularly offensive https://forum.ybig.ie/euro-2020-draw_topic57282_post2335219.html?KW=Nordies#2335219

Granadino · 10-11-2020 8:19am

No. Southerners isn’t offensive. We’re also known as Irish.

grayzer75 · 10-11-2020 8:30am

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay, go ahead and control your own destiny. The citizens of The Republic of Ireland are not "southeners". You can keep your own insulting language to your own "country".

They affectionately known as 'Mexicans' :pac:

Feisar · 10-11-2020 8:49am

grayzer75 wrote: »

They affectionately known as 'Mexicans' :pac:

I get Mexicans because, south of the border. But can you please explain Comanche!

grayzer75 · 10-11-2020 8:52am

Feisar wrote: »

I get Mexicans because, south of the border. But can you please explain Comanche!

Dunno where it started but first time I heard it was when my now father-in-law called me it lol. It's all just in jest and to wind them up I just smile and say I'd rather be a mexican than a brit, works a treat every time haha.

ittakestwo · 10-11-2020 8:52am

Granadino wrote: »

No. Southerners isn’t offensive. We’re also known as Irish.

Southerners isn't offensive to me in the context of someone from NI reffering to someone from the ROI. We're both irish so the reference irish would not work in trying to distinguish a person from NI to a person from the ROI

lawred2 · 10-11-2020 8:54am

downcow wrote: »

Absolutely unintended insult. I had no idea your people were offended by the term ‘southerners’ .......And if others can confirm that “southerners” is offensive then I will refrain from using a term I have used all my life, unwittingly, and indeed in the company of (I am not sure what to call them now) republic of Irelanders.
Could you tell me what is a handy term I could use to refer to specifically those living in the 26 counties?
It is ironic that your last post you described ‘northerners’ as dysfunctional and wishywashy.
Your main football forum officially refers to the NI football team as ’the Nordies’, which seems like a fair enough nickname to me and not particularly offensive https://forum.ybig.ie/euro-2020-draw_topic57282_post2335219.html?KW=Nordies#2335219

There is no need for such a specific term.

Irish is specific enough.

It's only relevant to someone who wants to set themselves apart. Namely those who see themselves as British.

downcow · 10-11-2020 8:58am

I wish I knew how to post an image on here. There is a class Lord Kilclooney ‘guide to the world’ doing the rounds up here since his latest outburst. (Remember this is the guy that republicans on here were quoting as evidence, a few pages ago, to prove that every unionist was an Ulster Scot hahaha - indeed that’s what he labels us as on his guide to the world lol) ...and he refers to you guys as the Mexicans lol
If anyone has it do me a favour and post it - I think jm08 and Francie regard him as a reference on ethnicity hehe

downcow · 10-11-2020 9:02am

lawred2 wrote: »

There is no need for such a specific term.

Irish is specific enough.

It's only relevant to someone who wants to set themselves apart. Namely those who see themselves as British.

So lawred, eg if you wanted to refer to the group of people who live on this island but don’t have access to the nhs how would you do it in a word?

Ps I know loads of people who don’t even live on this island who refer to themselves as Irish. So that doesn’t really work

Solutionking · 10-11-2020 9:04am

Scoondal wrote: »

Okay, go ahead and control your own destiny. The citizens of The Republic of Ireland are not "southeners". You can keep your own insulting language to your own "country".

Why would anyone think that is insulting? sure people from Galway/Mayo etc are called Westerners, I don't hear them getting all riled up.

lawred2 · 10-11-2020 9:06am

downcow wrote: »

So lawred, eg if you wanted to refer to the group of people who live on this island but don’t have access to the nhs how would you do it in a word?

Ps I know loads of people who don’t even live on this island who refer to themselves as Irish. So that doesn’t really work

Irish residents.

grayzer75 · 10-11-2020 9:10am

lawred2 wrote: »

Irish residents.

Seriously?

Everyone knows there's nicknames for various parts of the country and most are harmless or just in jest so nobody should be taking offence.

downcow · 10-11-2020 9:14am

lawred2 wrote: »

Irish residents.

You might offend northern nationalists with that term. Since gfa they are allowed to refer to themselves as Irish residents afaik

downcow · 10-11-2020 9:22am

lawred2 wrote: »

Irish residents.

I remember my first visit to Dublin, and a taxi driver who did not appreciate my driving technique hollering at me ‘go back the the black north you stupid barstewart’. Is that still a term used? It didn’t offend me in the slightest. I remember I actually blew him a kiss, to encourage international relationships

downcow · 10-11-2020 9:26am

downcow wrote: »

So lawred, eg if you wanted to refer to the group of people who live on this island but don’t have access to the nhs how would you do it in a word?

Ps I know loads of people who don’t even live on this island who refer to themselves as Irish. So that doesn’t really work

Maybe this will work
https://ibb.co/thyw4H2

ittakestwo · 10-11-2020 9:36am

lawred2 wrote: »

Irish residents.

Confusing as anybody who lives anywhere in Ireland can be called Irish resident? Southerner is fine in the context of separating NI to ROI.

Could be used in this context between two people in NI:

"Southerners have the advantage of still being able to access European courts"

lawred2 · 10-11-2020 10:09am

downcow wrote: »

You might offend northern nationalists with that term. Since gfa they are allowed to refer to themselves as Irish residents afaik

There's a difference between Irish citizenship and Irish residency.

I can be an Irish citizen resident in Australia.

lawred2 · 10-11-2020 10:10am

downcow wrote: »

I remember my first visit to Dublin, and a taxi driver who did not appreciate my driving technique hollering at me ‘go back the the black north you stupid barstewart’. Is that still a term used? It didn’t offend me in the slightest. I remember I actually blew him a kiss, to encourage international relationships

black north?

never heard that in my life

taxi drivers are often bastions of poor manners

downcow · 10-11-2020 10:24am

lawred2 wrote: »

There's a difference between Irish citizenship and Irish residency.

I can be an Irish citizen resident in Australia.

No doubt. But I still think you will offend a northern nationalist by telling them they are not an Irish resident.
Try it with a few shinners and tell me how you get along. I don’t think they will mind being called northerners though

lawred2 · 10-11-2020 10:48am

downcow wrote: »

No doubt. But I still think you will offend a northern nationalist by telling them they are not an Irish resident.
Try it with a few shinners and tell me how you get along. I don’t think they will mind being called northerners though

why would I say that to them? I don't differentiate.

I think Irish citizens resident in Northern Ireland are well aware of what their legal and state entitlements are. They don't need me telling them anything.

Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

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