Demos

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 5:00pm #1

What are they for ?

Are they for public consumption ?
Isn't that what 'CDs' or 'Releases' are for ?

Is it not damaging to a bands rep to put 'unfinished' work on a public arena like MySpace - a punter just listens and either like or dislikes, what they hear is what is being judged.

A friend referred me to a band on myspace who have 2 'demo' tracks up - both awful. My shackles are raised instantly.

Why would a band do that ?

maccored · 19-07-2010 5:11pm

wouldnt that always have been the case? when demos where recorded onto cassette there were people who went to studios and others who used 4 track cassette tascams. I reckon you still had badly recorded demos.

I do think though sometimes people go too far in letting people listen to every trial and tribulation. Do a mix, put it online, tweak it and put *that* online, change the vocals a bit and put that online etc etc - but otherwise I think theres always been good and bad demos

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 5:15pm

maccored wrote: »

wouldnt that always have been the case? when demos where recorded onto cassette there were people who went to studios and others who used 4 track cassette tascams. I reckon you still had badly recorded demos.

I do think though sometimes people go too far in letting people listen to every trial and tribulation. Do a mix, put it online, tweak it and put *that* online, change the vocals a bit and put that online etc etc - but otherwise I think theres always been good and bad demos

Indeed, but then a Demo was somewhat private - NOT for public consumption under any circumstances.

Why would one put something substandard out - which putting it on MySpace/Soundcloud etc is ?

maccored · 19-07-2010 5:18pm

part of the new world of the interweb is letting people know you are human. Granted, its normal to do this within the privacy of your own site within a members only area, but not everyone realises sometimes somethings are best kept private

jtsuited · 19-07-2010 5:22pm

Interesting questions.

Don't really know what way it works in the rock game anymore, but in my line of work, where you're making a lot of stuff at a constant rate, it's nice to have demos of stuff to play in clubs.
Also a lot of producers like myself will shtick some bits and bobs up on soundcloud (not myspace as myspace is a bit too 'public' if ya get me), and sometimes a lot of other producers who you respect will go mental for a demo, so you know it's worth finishing.

In an ideal world, us musicians shouldn't need that sort of feedback, but we're all a little insecure right?

I presume bands do it for similar reasons? Maybe not.

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 5:22pm

maccored wrote: »

not everyone realises sometimes somethings are best kept private

My point exactly ....

But what is driving this ?

'Me too' ? Impressing ones friends ?

Or, horror of horrors, they think it IS good enough ?

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 5:24pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What are they for ?

Are they for public consumption ?
Isn't that what 'CDs' or 'Releases' are for ?

Is it not damaging to a bands rep to put 'unfinished' work on a public arena like MySpace - a punter just listens and either like or dislikes, what they hear is what is being judged.

A friend referred me to a band on myspace who have 2 'demo' tracks up - both awful. My shackles are raised instantly.

Why would a band do that ?

I honestly wouldn't have any of the "success" I've had with making fans, recording at WL, etc., If I'd waited to put up stuff, until after I'd had a perfectly finished product.

I think there's GREAT opportunity to make fans by letting them see the progress of the material.

Just my opinion, but there's no real reason to NOT put up demos/unfinished stuff, as long as you label it as a demo/unfinished mix/whatever.

IMO.

DamagedTrax · 19-07-2010 5:26pm

personally not a fan of making demos public but each to their own.

whatever gets you to where you wanna be is the right way to go.

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 5:32pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

I think there's GREAT opportunity to make fans by letting them see the progress of the material.

Are they REALLY interested in something unfinished. Perhaps a few completists ? Certainly not the majority ?

(Unless, of course, you have 2 fans and one of them is interested - that's 50% right there )

And the 'yet to be' Fans ? Why scare them off ?

TelePaul · 19-07-2010 5:39pm

The internet and a rising number of poorly-skilled enthusiasts like myself mean that an amateur band can broadcast an imperfect message further than ever before. It seems that where initially bands started self-promoting by playing in bars and clubs (where they effectively 'honed their skills'), the move to the studio now represents a less-significant leap forward; in actual fact, studio work can be undertaken in tandem or even before these traditionally pre-requisite endeavours (as any guitarist with a bassist, drummer and MacBook will attest). The importance of viral marketing has propagated a belief whereby if a band has no online presence, they have no presence at all (a mindset that is proving difficult to fault). So, given the choice, would you rather be a bad musician with no audience or a bad musician with a potential audience of several hundred million?

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 5:40pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Are they REALLY interested in something unfinished. Perhaps a few completists ? Certainly not the majority ?

(Unless, of course, you have 2 fans and one of them is interested - that's 50% right there )

And the 'yet to be' Fans ? Why scare them off ?

I don't see it like that at all.

I have had so many people, so many, tell me they enjoy watching the songs evolve.

AND

It's a narrative.

I've had six months of contact with people.

If I had waited until I "finished" none of the people I've met in the last six months would know of my band.

And, I'd have a brief "launch" and then that's it.

This way, I've been able to build something up...

And I really don't think (honestly) that I've "lost" any fans. The people that may have been put off by rough stuff will always potentially hear the finished stuff on the radio/internet and make up their mind again.

Now, it's not for everyone, but I honestly think, as a way to build a name without playing a bunch of crap shows, it's a pretty good option!

IMO

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 5:43pm

TelePaul wrote: »

bad musician with no audience or a bad musician with a potential audience of several hundred million?

Well put TP.

However I wager it reverts to option A always.

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 5:48pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Well put TP.

However I wager it reverts to option A always.

True enough, and as crap as my demos are/were they were never just a guy with an acoustic guitar.

You have to be smart about it, but look, I've posted at least 6 versions of that OED song and, at this point, they all get a lot of plays almost immediately ('a lot' being a relative term). People aren't put off; if they like the songs they are drawn into the process.

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 5:55pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

if they like the songs they are drawn into the process.

I dunno .... sounds a bit far fetched to me.

TelePaul · 19-07-2010 5:57pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Well put TP.

However I wager it reverts to option A always.

It's funny. I played in a few bands when I was in school. We were distinctly average. I remember the bassist quitting because we 'never played any gigs'. I was of the opinion that few people - bar friends and relatives - would really want to hear a forty minute version of Rory Gallagher's 'Bad Penny'! I'd always prefer to give an excellent performance in my own living room than to give an average performance to a crowd. I've never, ever played a gig.

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 6:01pm

TelePaul wrote: »

I've never, ever played a gig.

That's a pity TP . It's great fun.
It's that 'seat of the pants stuff' that propels your playing forward .

Also the feedback (in the good sense) is instant.

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 6:05pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I dunno .... sounds a bit far fetched to me.

I CAN forward you the emails...?

We've never played a gig (though I have personally played hundreds) and have no finished mixes, but we do have 11K myspace views and thousands and thousands of plays between MS and SC.

I have no vested interest in saying this **** other than its true.

We have twitter followers, blog subscribers and readers and hundreds (almost 250) facebook fans (in about a month).

No finished songs, no gigs.

TelePaul · 19-07-2010 6:35pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's a pity TP . It's great fun.
It's that 'seat of the pants stuff' that propels your playing forward .

Also the feedback (in the good sense) is instant.

I hear what you're saying, though to echo my previous sentiments regarding music as a profession, there's a certain security to be had in not trying

Also with regard to demos; have any of you played a ham-fisted take on 'Wild Thing' only to be showered with praise/sexual favours?

Same applies to the internet demo as non musicians generally can't tell one end of a guitar from another.

maccored · 19-07-2010 6:37pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

My point exactly ....

But what is driving this ?

'Me too' ? Impressing ones friends ?

Or, horror of horrors, they think it IS good enough ?

I think its mainly because its possible to put it somewhere where it can be listened to. I dont think every band considers if it should be publically available or not. just because its possible to do something doesnt mean one should do it, but that wont stop everyone.

maccored · 19-07-2010 6:40pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

No finished songs, no gigs.

arent you playing that Next Becks Thing thing?

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 6:43pm

maccored wrote: »

arent you playing that Next Becks Thing thing?

haha... Yes! that could be our first show!

Though not til ROctober...

We're gonna try and sneak a few gigs in under an assumed name before then...

I'm thinking, Chris and the Giant Internet Rumours.

maccored · 19-07-2010 6:46pm

that heat 5? I think we're in heat 4.

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 6:46pm

maccored wrote: »

I think its mainly because its possible to put it somewhere where it can be listened to. I dont think every band considers if it should be publically available or not. just because its possible to do something doesnt mean one should do it, but that wont stop everyone.

It's DEF true that it's better to have a plan, then to just randomly throw **** on the internerd, but honestly, if a band has good songs it's just not an issue.

How many people do you know that say things like, "well, I WOULD like [insert massively popular artist] BUT they posted some demos online at one point so..."?

It just seems like a non-issue, if the songs are good and the demos are atrocious.

maccored · 19-07-2010 6:48pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

How many people do you know that say things like, "well, I would like [insert massively popular artist] but they posted some demos online at one point so..."?

plenty do but to private members. the beastie boys, fort minor, linkin park etc etc. beastie boys even have a studio cam that goes live every time they mess around in the studio. all part of getting people to pay the subscription fee, which is an interesting angle on the whole 'how to make money from the web' angle. FM/LP have taken the fan club idea to a new level as well, and modernised it for the web

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 6:49pm

maccored wrote: »

that heat 5? I think we're in heat 4.

See you in the finals!

No, I actually have no idea what heat it is; Phantom has promoted this so shoddily...

Maybe they'll do more once the actual finals are approaching, but...

so far, I have no clue who's playing when...

TelePaul · 19-07-2010 7:11pm

MilanPan!c wrote: »

but we do have 11K myspace views and thousands and thousands of plays between MS and SC.

But what do those stats actually mean in terms of your popularity? By your own admission, none of these people have bought a gig to your show, right?

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 8:25pm

Ah lads ? Battle of the Bands ? Surely that's only for kids ? No self respecting band who could see past their noses would enter one ? No?

TelePaul · 19-07-2010 8:29pm

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah lads ? Battle of the Bands ? Surely that's only for kids ? No self respecting band who could see past their noses would enter one ? No?

Haha PB what were ya telling me about gigging?

eviltimeban · 19-07-2010 8:29pm

Maybe they do think its good enough. But also, you have to remember a lot of musicians and bands are just DYING for people to hear their music, so they put it up. They are obviously excited about the fact they have something down on tape (for want of a better word) and want to play it for everyone. Now, the quality can be bad, the song may not even be finished, and that's for them to go back and improve. But at the same time if that's the way they want to present themselves to the world, fair enough.

I've put demos up. In fact, you could say all my tracks are "demos" because they are not professionally recorded, mixed or mastered. But where do you distinguish demos from masters? If the artist feels its finished, that it can be no better, that this is the final article, then its no longer a demo and it is a master. Just because its recorded in a bedroom, doesn't mean its a demo - plenty of people have had hits with "bedroom" recorded music.

Its what they class it - if they call their own work "a demo", then they feel its not the finished article.

MilanPan!c · 19-07-2010 8:33pm

TelePaul wrote: »

But what do those stats actually mean in terms of your popularity? By your own admission, none of these people have bought a gig to your show, right?

Well, here's some perspective, I can name 5-6 bands that regularly play in Dublin, with properly recorded records, that don't get as many plays.

And, the other thing is that these numbers are consistent and consistently moving up. We have more plays per week now than a month ago, and so on.

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

To me, this is a victory, for the band, we have already got interested people, a lot in context, before we've done anything.

On top of that, I'm literally turning down shows, regularly.

As long as we put on a GOOD live show I think this little plan has helped us avoid the whole pay-to-play dilemma... at least it's dulled it a bit.

If that's all this has done, gotten us a bunch of early interest, and help, and helped us avoid paying to play those first few crappy gigs... what's not to recommend?

PaulBrewer · 19-07-2010 8:55pm

I see your point ok. Being devils advocate for a moment - couldn't a lot of those plays have come from here I.e boards? There, is after all, by definition of the forums members interest, a tacit interest in what other people are doing , which is a long way from being a 'fan'.

Also how much more interest would you have generated by posting the ultimate finished product ? Rather than sketches along the way?

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Well, here's some perspective, I can name 5-6 bands that regularly play in Dublin, with properly recorded records, that don't get as many plays.

And, the other thing is that these numbers are consistent and consistently moving up. We have more plays per week now than a month ago, and so on.

What it means, on a basic level, is that when we start playing shows, I'll have hundreds of Dubs I can advertise them too, who have shown interest and have heard a song or two, at the very least. That puts us a few steps up over a LOT of local bands, who gig for 6 months, then decide to record.

To me, this is a victory, for the band, we have already got interested people, a lot in context, before we've done anything.

On top of that, I'm literally turning down shows, regularly.

As long as we put on a GOOD live show I think this little plan has helped us avoid the whole pay-to-play dilemma... at least it's dulled it a bit.

If that's all this has done, gotten us a bunch of early interest, and help, and helped us avoid paying to play those first few crappy gigs... what's not to recommend?

Demos

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