Who will be Ireland's 1st choice outhalf at the next world cup?

UAEguy2020 · 02-12-2020 12:59pm

td1 wrote: »

If JS is in the frame for the next World Cup squad, it'll be an indictment of our professional set up

If he declines a good bit and is still our starting 10 in 2023 then yes I’d agree but if he’s 38 and still in good form I don’t think it’s outrageous to say he could make another World Cup granted not as a starter.

Paul Smeenus · 02-12-2020 1:06pm

td1 wrote: »

If JS is in the frame for the next World Cup squad, it'll be an indictment of our professional set up

He can't be. He simply can't. This is the point at which his much-lauded competitive nature, refusal to compromise, dive to succeed etc etc diverges from reality and becomes a delusion.

Players with his self-belief and willpower don't just go quietly - what made them great in their pomp, now stops them accepting the march of time. I imagine there will be some horrible experiences and games ahead of him before he accepts that he's done. (When he is past it - I'm not saying he's finished now!)

Buer · 02-12-2020 1:14pm

The problem is that Sexton is still comfortably our best outhalf. At this point in time, it's not out of the question at all that he'll remain first choice for at least up to the end of the 2021/22 season.

We can discuss the next outhalf until the cows come home but this is very much a hypothetical discussion until one of them shows they're able to perform consistently at provincial level and then seize their opportunity at test level to a standard equal to Sexton currently. That's certainly not out of the question as Sexton isn't the player he was but he still is the man in possession.

The best periods of outhalf play we've seen in the past 6 weeks are still probably the opening half against France and the opening half against Wales. Hopefully one of Healy or Harry Byrne step up to the plate in the next 12 months and get opportunities but that's completely unknown.

ELM327 · 02-12-2020 1:20pm

Buer wrote: »

The problem is that Sexton is still comfortably our best outhalf. At this point in time, it's not out of the question at all that he'll remain first choice for at least up to the end of the 2021/22 season.

We can discuss the next outhalf until the cows come home but this is very much a hypothetical discussion until one of them shows they're able to perform consistently at provincial level and then seize their opportunity at test level to a standard equal to Sexton currently. That's certainly not out of the question as Sexton isn't the player he was but he still is the man in possession.

The best periods of outhalf play we've seen in the past 6 weeks are still probably the opening half against France and the opening half against Wales. Hopefully one of Healy or Harry Byrne step up to the plate in the next 12 months and get opportunities but that's completely unknown.

Agree. No one has shown the ability to step up and take the job from Sexton, in the way that Sexton himself did, and ROG before him, Humphreys before him etc.

I still think that Sexton will be our 10 at the world cup. Ironically the best replacement IMO is playing in Ireland again after time in France and UK but not centrally contracted.

El_Duderino 09 · 02-12-2020 1:30pm

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If he declines a good bit and is still our starting 10 in 2023 then yes I’d agree but if he’s 38 and still in good form I don’t think it’s outrageous to say he could make another World Cup granted not as a starter.

Exactly, it should be more of a comeback story rather than him slowly declining between one WC and the next, and still being Ireland’s best option at 10.

Ireland is always reluctant to drop a big name. They need another big name to usurp them. So it won’t be a problem if H Byrne kicks on and becomes the obvious challenger. It’s hard to drop a declining former star for a normal player like Burns.

It’s been a long time since Ireland hasn’t had a world class 10 in either ROG or JS. But we might be heading into a period where they don’t have a world class 10.

ELM327 · 02-12-2020 1:35pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Exactly, it should be more of a comeback story rather than him slowly declining between one WC and the next, and still being Ireland’s best option at 10.

Ireland is always reluctant to drop a big name. They need another big name to usurp them. So it won’t be a problem if H Byrne kicks on and becomes the obvious challenger. It’s hard to drop a declining former star for a normal player like Burns.

It’s been a long time since Ireland hasn’t had a world class 10 in either ROG or JS. But we might be heading into a period where they don’t have a world class 10.

Agree.

But a declining JS is still IMO better than any of the other options by some margin.

Buer · 02-12-2020 1:39pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s been a long time since Ireland hasn’t had a world class 10 in either ROG or JS. But we might be heading into a period where they don’t have a world class 10.

It happens. In the space of 26 months, England had Goode, Hodgson, Flood, Cipriani, Flood, Wilkinson and Geraghty all line out for them in the 6N at 10.

We can accommodate a solid but unspectacular outhalf in the team but it means the pack will have to be on top of their game. First and foremost, they need to actually win their own set piece and at least find parity on the gain line. No outhalf is going to be able to look anything remotely close to top quality if they are playing in a team going backwards.

Former Former Former · 02-12-2020 2:02pm

Buer wrote: »

It happens. In the space of 26 months, England had Goode, Hodgson, Flood, Cipriani, Flood, Wilkinson and Geraghty all line out for them in the 6N at 10.

We can accommodate a solid but unspectacular outhalf in the team but it means the pack will have to be on top of their game. First and foremost, they need to actually win their own set piece and at least find parity on the gain line. No outhalf is going to be able to look anything remotely close to top quality if they are playing in a team going backwards.

Yep.

But also, we're never going to have a pack that is so dominant that we can get by with a mediocre out-half because he's getting an armchair ride. We need quality at 10.

I would dread the idea of Sexton being in the jersey at RWC 2023 but at the moment I'd say it's 50-50 that he will be. None of the currently capped alternatives are remotely good enough except Carbery and I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact he's never coming back.

Hopefully one of H Byrne, Healy or even Lowry steps up big time.

El_Duderino 09 · 02-12-2020 2:03pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Agree.

But a declining JS is still IMO better than any of the other options by some margin.

depends on how much he declines over that period. He might be better now but we need to think about the future as the decline happens slowly. We saw JS attack the line in a way he hadn’t done in ages. Carrying ball and hitting the line (or gaps) had just slipped out of his game. It was interesting to note that I heard people refer to things “we all know” such as JS carries the be all close to the line, but that had also slipped out of his game and he was still getting credit for doing it even when he wasn’t doing it.

I think we need a fresh observation of JS and see how good he actually is right now. I suspect he’s getting lots of credit for things he doesn’t really do anymore. Ireland gets hammered by England with R Byrne at 10 results in Byrne missing WC selection. Ireland gets hammered by England with JS at 10 and nobody considers blaming JS for the loss. While he definitely was a great player and still has lots of elements of a great player, he’s judged by a completely differently set of standards than the competitors.

El_Duderino 09 · 02-12-2020 2:06pm

If Sexton is the out half at the next World Cup, then it will almost certainly mean that 10 is a weakness in the Ireland team.

The best on-form player should be picked for the WC and if that’s JS then fair play. But chances of him being close to as good in 2023 as he was in 2019, are very slim.

UAEguy2020 · 02-12-2020 2:21pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Exactly, it should be more of a comeback story rather than him slowly declining between one WC and the next, and still being Ireland’s best option at 10.

Ireland is always reluctant to drop a big name. They need another big name to usurp them. So it won’t be a problem if H Byrne kicks on and becomes the obvious challenger. It’s hard to drop a declining former star for a normal player like Burns.

It’s been a long time since Ireland hasn’t had a world class 10 in either ROG or JS. But we might be heading into a period where they don’t have a world class 10.

At this point Sexton needs to play.

We do have some players with potential to be world class (Harry byrne,Joey Carbery,Ben Healy) but at this point it’s a matter of getting them up to speed so we can smoothly transition one of them into the 10 shirt for 2023.

CMcsporty · 02-12-2020 2:42pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If Sexton is the out half at the next World Cup, then it will almost certainly mean that 10 is a weakness in the Ireland team.

The best on-form player should be picked for the WC and if that’s JS then fair play. But chances of him being close to as good in 2023 as he was in 2019, are very slim.

Its not even very slim! It's a physiological impossibility!

He has long history of "lower back", hamstring and calf injuries.

It would be a financial gamble if the irfu were to give him another year.
One i think they cant afford to take.

Dubinusa · 02-12-2020 2:47pm

I admire Sexton and his drive, but I doubt he'll be an option in 2023. His body won't hold up imo. The odds are long.
That said, someone has to stand out. I reckon Healy is a good bet. I think he will be starting for Munster soon enough.
Burns, with more experience could be our 10. He's been good so far.
RB imo, just plays too deep. Unless he changes his approach and becomes a viable running threat he won't kick on.
Carty is either brilliant or me.
HB is talented, but is still got to pass his brother and Sexton.
Lowry could be a dark horse. But again, Burns is Ulster 10.
Which leads me back to PJ. would they bring him back?
Carberry would have to be wrapped in cotton wool. His body has already taken a beating and there's no sign of him returning.

Paul Smeenus · 02-12-2020 3:16pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I admire Sexton and his drive, but I doubt he'll be an option in 2023. His body won't hold up imo. The odds are long.
That said, someone has to stand out. I reckon Healy is a good bet. I think he will be starting for Munster soon enough.
Burns, with more experience could be our 10. He's been good so far.
RB imo, just plays too deep. Unless he changes his approach and becomes a viable running threat he won't kick on.
Carty is either brilliant or me.
HB is talented, but is still got to pass his brother and Sexton.
Lowry could be a dark horse. But again, Burns is Ulster 10.
Which leads me back to PJ. would they bring him back?
Carberry would have to be wrapped in cotton wool. His body has already taken a beating and there's no sign of him returning.

They will never bring PJ back.

Besides which, is he still the player he was?

Dog Botherer · 02-12-2020 3:18pm

Jackson will never play in Ireland again, and on the basis of the form over the past few years wouldn’t start for any of the provinces regardless.

td1 · 02-12-2020 4:49pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If Sexton is the out half at the next World Cup, then it will almost certainly mean that 10 is a weakness in the Ireland team.

The best on-form player should be picked for the WC and if that’s JS then fair play. But chances of him being close to as good in 2023 as he was in 2019, are very slim.

He wasn't good in 2019! But then again neither were most of the others. Nor have he/they been good enough this year.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-12-2020 10:16am

I see the IRFU saying they’ll judge sexton on form rather than age when negotiating his contract. That seems to suggest they’re negotiating a central contract. But surely a 1 year extension rather than a multi-year deal or a deal that gets him to the next WC.

They’re pointing out that players have gotten to world cups at 37 or 38 before so sexton could do it. I don’t judge them for saying this stuff because it’s the kind of thing they need to say and there’s no value in talking him down. I just hope they’re not taking it too seriously.

If H Byrne, Carbery, Healy all fail to be good enough or injury free for the World Cup, then sexton might be a good option. But only as a last resort. Planning to have a 38 year old out half is to plan for another mediocre World Cup.

td1 · 03-12-2020 10:32am

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I see the IRFU saying they’ll judge sexton on form rather than age when negotiating his contract. That seems to suggest they’re negotiating a central contract. But surely a 1 year extension rather than a military year deal or a deal that gets him to the next WC.

They’re pointing out that players have gotten to world cups at 37 or 38 before so sexton could do it. I don’t judge them for saying this stuff because it’s the kind of thing they need to say and there’s no value in talking him down. I just hope they’re not taking it too seriously.

If H Byrne, Carbery, Healy all fail to be good enough or injury free for the World Cup, then sexton might be a good option. But only as a last resort. Planning to have a 38 year old out half is to plan for another mediocre World Cup.

We saw in last year's World Cup (and indeed 6N) the effects of sticking with an older, declining captain. We are still struggling in that position because of the failure to develop alternatives when the incumbent was clearly waning. Surely we can't make the same mistake again?

Podge_irl · 03-12-2020 10:44am

td1 wrote: »

We saw in last year's World Cup (and indeed 6N) the effects of sticking with an older, declining captain. We are still struggling in that position because of the failure to develop alternatives when the incumbent was clearly waning. Surely we can't make the same mistake again?

Alternatives are not always there to be developed. Sticking with Best was a calculated risk that the management were fully aware may not work out, but it is not as if any of the hookers played since then have demonstrated there was an obvious alternative. The players available weren't good enough and weren't going to be no matter how much the were "developed".

The plan won't be to stick with Sexton til 2023, and I would consider it highly unlikely but if it does happen it will be because no one else good enough was available.

sydthebeat · 03-12-2020 10:53am

td1 wrote: »

We saw in last year's World Cup (and indeed 6N) the effects of sticking with an older, declining captain. We are still struggling in that position because of the failure to develop alternatives when the incumbent was clearly waning. Surely we can't make the same mistake again?

Are we struggling?? Or are the players simply not that good (yet)

Carty has got sufficient game time in my opinion to stake a claim for a test level spot but hasnt taken it.

Ross Byrne has shown that he looks good behind a dominant pack but hasn't the playing skills behind a beaten on.

Billy burns has looked pretty good in the limited time he's had at test level so far, and is in pole position currently to challenge Sexton for the spot. Unlucky that he's injured this weekend.

Carbery unfortunately is crocked.... But not for want of development time.

Harry Byrne and Ben healy are both getting great game time at provincial level, with healy hopefully going to get challenged at euro level soon. H Byrne has been in a few Ireland training camps so far which is a good sign for the young man's progress.
He needs to take over from his brother at leinster though before being a realistic test squad option.

So at the moment we have the senior out half of every province either having had a shot, or getting development time at test level. We also have sextons understudy having gotten decent games time to assess, and we have sextons no. 3 involved with the squad as well.

All this with the hamstring of the time put into paddy Jackson development as well.

So again, are we struggling to develop these players or are the players simply not that good (yet)

Wegians89 · 03-12-2020 11:00am

Think 10 will be a battle between sexton, Harry bryne and Healy. I’d hope that frawley (12), carbery and Lowry (both at 15) are given opportunities, who ever is at 10, I think there needs to be another play maker in the back line

El_Duderino 09 · 03-12-2020 11:15am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Alternatives are not always there to be developed. Sticking with Best was a calculated risk that the management were fully aware may not work out, but it is not as if any of the hookers played since then have demonstrated there was an obvious alternative. The players available weren't good enough and weren't going to be no matter how much the were "developed".

The plan won't be to stick with Sexton til 2023, and I would consider it highly unlikely but if it does happen it will be because no one else good enough was available.

Herring was about as good then as he is now and both were probably better than Best. Hey we’re blinded by the fact that Best was captain so they played him regardless. Plus “what he brings to the dressing room”, which is an excuse for playing a player who should be dropped and something I hope I never hear again.

Someone like sexton is like an old shirt in the wardrobe that you know you’ll never wear against but you’re reluctant to throw it out. He was so heavily involved with brilliant days for Ireland and I think there’s a clear path to playing him in the next World Cup. A combination of sexton being such a big personality and having lots of influence and lack of a clear option to push him aside and grab the jersey.

If the IRFU believes it’s own rhetoric then it could happen. It’s perfectly possible. Let’s just hope they’re not serious.

Dubinusa · 03-12-2020 2:56pm

There is a crop of younger lads beginning to come through. Healy and H Byrne are prominent atm. But there's also Crowley and maybe Lowry, if Ulster tried him more at 10. I think Frawley could be an option also, but Leinster are playing him at 12.
I hope one of these lads pushes on. We are 3 years out, so there's time. Sexton is obviously in the pole position right now. But at his age .... it's also telling that he appears so little for Leinster. I suppose we wouldn't know how HB would go in Europe if he wasn't selected.
It's a tough situation. HB plays pro14 and is sat for the big matches. So his experience is really only against weaker opposition.
I think Healy is in a better position. He will get an opportunity in Europe.

Jump_In_Jack · 03-12-2020 3:01pm

JJ Hanrahan is an odd omission but at 28 years of age he could kick on and be in contention by 2023.

El_Duderino 09 · 03-12-2020 3:12pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

There is a crop of younger lads beginning to come through. Healy and H Byrne are prominent atm. But there's also Crowley and maybe Lowry, if Ulster tried him more at 10. I think Frawley could be an option also, but Leinster are playing him at 12.
I hope one of these lads pushes on. We are 3 years out, so there's time. Sexton is obviously in the pole position right now. But at his age .... it's also telling that he appears so little for Leinster. I suppose we wouldn't know how HB would go in Europe if he wasn't selected.
It's a tough situation. HB plays pro14 and is sat for the big matches. So his experience is really only against weaker opposition.
I think Healy is in a better position. He will get an opportunity in Europe.

All true. HB usually plays those pro 14 games behind a dominant Leinster pack too. It’s no discredit to him, but he doesn’t have much experience of playing any other way.

It’s probably easier to find space for kicks in behind the defenders when the defenders are having to mind the front line because Leinster are always a threat in attack. We’ll have to see him play on the defensive

The Lost Sheep · 03-12-2020 3:13pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

JJ Hanrahan is an odd omission but at 28 years of age he could kick on and be in contention by 2023.

Dont see any chance of that. What evidence of him so far suggests that?
He hasnt any involvement in irish squads yet and doesnt look like he will any time soon. if he was 23/24 then maybe but not now.

sydthebeat · 03-12-2020 3:39pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

JJ Hanrahan is an odd omission but at 28 years of age he could kick on and be in contention by 2023.

nah, at 28 and with the experience he has had, i think hes hit his ceiling.

a very handy 22 shirt in Europe is about his highest level going forward

Dog Botherer · 03-12-2020 3:41pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

nah, at 28 and with the experience he has had, i think hes hit his ceiling.

a very handy 22 shirt in Europe is about his highest level going forward

Hanrahan hit his ceiling about 6 months before he left Munster. He’s never played consistently at anything other than Pro14/Premiership level since.

ersatz · 07-12-2020 10:48pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Herring was about as good then as he is now and both were probably better than Best. Hey we’re blinded by the fact that Best was captain so they played him regardless. Plus “what he brings to the dressing room”, which is an excuse for playing a player who should be dropped and something I hope I never hear again.

Someone like sexton is like an old shirt in the wardrobe that you know you’ll never wear against but you’re reluctant to throw it out. He was so heavily involved with brilliant days for Ireland and I think there’s a clear path to playing him in the next World Cup. A combination of sexton being such a big personality and having lots of influence and lack of a clear option to push him aside and grab the jersey.

If the IRFU believes it’s own rhetoric then it could happen. It’s perfectly possible. Let’s just hope they’re not serious.

Everyone loves Sexton for what he has done and for his insane personality that makes him such a warrior but any thoughts of his being out half coming into 2023 WC are completely mad. Yes there are a couple of notable back rowers who've continued to play to a great age but it's unprecedented among backs for good reason. Any opposition team will be licking their lips lining up again a geriatric (relatively) 10. It won't happen and the longer any discussion of it being a possibility persists the less experience the next in line will have. Comparisons to Tom Brady (I believe Sexton floated this himself) are akin to comparing horse racing to motor racing.

RB is journeyman level and not someone we can build a team around to beat 2 or 3 of the best teams in the world in a tournament, Burns showed some potential, will he be much better in a couple of years? Can HB get 15 or 20 caps in the next few years? I've always really liked Carbury but the poor lad has a torrid time with somewhat innocuous injuries, is he the sort of player who can get through a 6N playing every game, never mind a WC? I doubt it. Carty looked only OK in Japan but seems to have fallen out of favour since. Maybe one of the younger lads can make the leap but Farrell better start trying guys out in real tests and figure out who is next because if Sexton remains in situ for the next 3 seasons because the coaches haven't figured out how to replace him WC 23 will be another car crash. Let's remember ROG who was playing pretty well until he wasn't. His decline happened slowly and then very, very fast.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-12-2020 12:51am

ersatz wrote: »

Everyone loves Sexton for what he has done and for his insane personality that makes him such a warrior but any thoughts of his being out half coming into 2023 WC are completely mad. Yes there are a couple of notable back rowers who've continued to play to a great age but it's unprecedented among backs for good reason. Any opposition team will be licking their lips lining up again a geriatric (relatively) 10. It won't happen and the longer any discussion of it being a possibility persists the less experience the next in line will have. Comparisons to Tom Brady (I believe Sexton floated this himself) are akin to comparing horse racing to motor racing.

RB is journeyman level and not someone we can build a team around to beat 2 or 3 of the best teams in the world in a tournament, Burns showed some potential, will he be much better in a couple of years? Can HB get 15 or 20 caps in the next few years? I've always really liked Carbury but the poor lad has a torrid time with somewhat innocuous injuries, is he the sort of player who can get through a 6N playing every game, never mind a WC? I doubt it. Carty looked only OK in Japan but seems to have fallen out of favour since. Maybe one of the younger lads can make the leap but Farrell better start trying guys out in real tests and figure out who is next because if Sexton remains in situ for the next 3 seasons because the coaches haven't figured out how to replace him WC 23 will be another car crash. Let's remember ROG who was playing pretty well until he wasn't. His decline happened slowly and then very, very fast.

I agree that the concern is that they consider him no.1 until the year before the World Cup and then paint themselves into the corner of nobody else having enough experience to take the place from him.

There’s talk of Ben Healy being offered a contract by Glasgow as he is Scottish qualified by ancestry. So I think they’ll fast track him into the Ireland camp and he might get a cap ahead of H Byrne. Healy will start Munster European games where H Byrne will need to overtake Ross and hope sexton isn’t fit, if he is to get a European game. But Healy will be getting all the European starts if he’s fit.

It’s not easy to see who takes the jersey from sexton.

TRC10 · 08-12-2020 1:45am

Ben Healy to get some starts at European Level over the next few weeks. That should be enough for him to wear 22 during the 6 nations and maybe start v Italy. Then he'll start during the summer tour in the Pacific (Even if sexton isnt with the lions there is no way he should go on that tour). Then with some more big European games under his belt, Ben Healy should be in a position to challenge sexton by november 2021.

bilston · 08-12-2020 8:57am

TRC10 wrote: »

Ben Healy to get some starts at European Level over the next few weeks. That should be enough for him to wear 22 during the 6 nations and maybe start v Italy. Then he'll start during the summer tour in the Pacific (Even if sexton isnt with the lions there is no way he should go on that tour). Then with some more big European games under his belt, Ben Healy should be in a position to challenge sexton by november 2021.

I dont thibk getting some starts at European level will be enough for Healy to get the 22 jersey in the 6Ns. For a start he has to get ahead of Burns and Ross Byrne who are also playing European rugby.

However it should be enough to put him ahead of Harry Byrne if he is not getting into Leinster's European 23, that might get him into the training squad and then he can build from there. Who knows its not impossible he could make the match day 23...but I'd say it is more likely to be the Pacific Islands tour

El_Duderino 09 · 08-12-2020 9:41am

bilston wrote: »

I dont thibk getting some starts at European level will be enough for Healy to get the 22 jersey in the 6Ns. For a start he has to get ahead of Burns and Ross Byrne who are also playing European rugby.

However it should be enough to put him ahead of Harry Byrne if he is not getting into Leinster's European 23, that might get him into the training squad and then he can build from there. Who knows its not impossible he could make the match day 23...but I'd say it is more likely to be the Pacific Islands tour

Playing European games isn’t necessarily enough to get an Ireland cap but it’s pretty unlikely H Byrne will get a cap without playing some European games.

I think they should bite the bullet and put H Byrne on the bench for Europe. I think most people both respect Ross for being a sound out half, but also acknowledge he’s not top notch. If he didn’t grow up in the Leinster system, they wouldn’t go out of their way to sign him - they wouldn’t think twice about signing him if he wasn’t already in the system.

He’s a steady stand in until a better prospect comes along and now that time has come (Harry and Frawley)

ec18 · 08-12-2020 10:03am

I think it's a bit more complicated just then who replaces sexton at 10. We're seeing the more successful teams having multiple playmakers across the back line.(NZ with mounga and Barrett, SA with pollard and le roux). Really by the next world cup we'll be looking at 10,12,15 at least being stand in out halves. Perfect world it's Carbery at 10 with Frawley at 12 and stockdale at 15. with Harry byrne and ben healy the back ups

Jump_In_Jack · 08-12-2020 12:53pm

ec18 wrote: »

I think it's a bit more complicated just then who replaces sexton at 10. We're seeing the more successful teams having multiple playmakers across the back line.(NZ with mounga and Barrett, SA with pollard and le roux). Really by the next world cup we'll be looking at 10,12,15 at least being stand in out halves. Perfect world it's Carbery at 10 with Frawley at 12 and stockdale at 15. with Harry byrne and ben healy the back ups

England can go further with 10.Ford, 12.Farrell, 13.Slade, 15.Daly.
I think Ireland need ball players in as many positions as possible, we can afford one or two in a back-line that can't execute kicks, but certainly not all of them.
We could go for something like, 10.Sexton, 12.Frawley, 13.Ringrose, 15.Lowry.
That kind of spine through the backline with Stockdale and Lowe on the wings would be interesting.

ELM327 · 08-12-2020 1:05pm

ec18 wrote: »

I think it's a bit more complicated just then who replaces sexton at 10. We're seeing the more successful teams having multiple playmakers across the back line.(NZ with mounga and Barrett, SA with pollard and le roux). Really by the next world cup we'll be looking at 10,12,15 at least being stand in out halves. Perfect world it's Carbery at 10 with Frawley at 12 and stockdale at 15. with Harry byrne and ben healy the back ups

Carbery shouldnt be a starting 10 at the next WC

El_Duderino 09 · 08-12-2020 1:17pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Carbery shouldnt be a starting 10 at the next WC

Well, whoever is on the best form at the time should start. And if that’s sexton then so be it. But that would signify a complete failure to develop another 10 and the failure of the other 10s to develop.

ELM327 · 08-12-2020 1:25pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, whoever is on the best form at the time should start. And if that’s sexton then so be it. But that would signify a complete failure to develop another 10 and the failure of the other 10s to develop.

I would tend to agree. I just dont see any other option as we sit right now.
Sexton is going to play till he's dropped/ousted from the 10 slot and I dont think we have anyone capable of that.

aloooof · 08-12-2020 1:44pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Carbery shouldnt be a starting 10 at the next WC

Why not?

If he comes back from injury, has a clear run of form and remains injury free, then I don't see why he shouldn't. They are big if's, but we're 3 years out from the next RWC, there's plenty of time for him to have the opportunity at least. Discounting him right now seems a bit premature.

TRC10 · 08-12-2020 4:26pm

bilston wrote: »

I dont thibk getting some starts at European level will be enough for Healy to get the 22 jersey in the 6Ns. For a start he has to get ahead of Burns and Ross Byrne who are also playing European rugby.

However it should be enough to put him ahead of Harry Byrne if he is not getting into Leinster's European 23, that might get him into the training squad and then he can build from there. Who knows its not impossible he could make the match day 23...but I'd say it is more likely to be the Pacific Islands tour

At present, I dont think theres a lot between Healy and R.Byrne/Burns. f he plays well on the European stage and Farrell wants to groom him to take over the 10 jersey, I dont see why he couldn't back sexton up after Christmas. We're no more likely to finish above third with Byrne or Burns on the bench, than we are with Healy on the bench. We know that R.Byrne isn't the answer, we know that Burns is the next best alternative but is he the answer? Possibly not. And we know that Healy has bags of potential. Were not going to win the six nations. So why not bring him in.

El_Duderino 09 · 08-12-2020 4:48pm

TRC10 wrote: »

At present, I dont think theres a lot between Healy and R.Byrne/Burns. f he plays well on the European stage and Farrell wants to groom him to take over the 10 jersey, I dont see why he couldn't back sexton up after Christmas. We're no more likely to finish above third with Byrne or Burns on the bench, than we are with Healy on the bench. We know that R.Byrne isn't the answer, we know that Burns is the next best alternative but is he the answer? Possibly not. And we know that Healy has bags of potential. Were not going to win the six nations. So why not bring him in.

Burns is probably the best alternative but he’s not a world class 10. So it’s a matter of whether we want to go for broke and try the other fellas to see if one is top notch, or stick with Burns and just accept that 10 won’t be a very strong part of the team in the way it has been for a long, long time for Ireland.

Tim Robbins · 08-12-2020 9:17pm

Frawley

TRC10 · 09-12-2020 4:20am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Frawley

Hes 4th choice at Leinster so they're making him a 12 (quite effectively). So only if he leaves leinster. I do think 10 is his best position and hell need to put on some size to play 12 at international level.

Paul Weller · 09-12-2020 8:22am

ec18 wrote: »

I think it's a bit more complicated just then who replaces sexton at 10. We're seeing the more successful teams having multiple playmakers across the back line.(NZ with mounga and Barrett, SA with pollard and le roux). Really by the next world cup we'll be looking at 10,12,15 at least being stand in out halves. Perfect world it's Carbery at 10 with Frawley at 12 and stockdale at 15. with Harry byrne and ben healy the back ups

That's a horrific thought... Stockdale isn't a first cousin to a proper fb... put him back on the wing where he is electric for the next world cup...too many better options at 12 for Frawley to be in the mix and just getting Carbery back and playing for Munster next season is the only thing that should concern us at the moment as his injury profile is worryingly like Blyeendahl's

TRC10 · 09-12-2020 12:42pm

Paul Weller wrote: »

That's a horrific thought... Stockdale isn't a first cousin to a proper fb... put him back on the wing where he is electric for the next world cup...too many better options at 12 for Frawley to be in the mix and just getting Carbery back and playing for Munster next season is the only thing that should concern us at the moment as his injury profile is worryingly like Blyeendahl's

Would stockdale be that much better on the wing though? He still makes the same errors playing on the wing. Fumbling kicks, missing tackles, kicking possession away after line breaks etc. And with Lowe now qualified and earls playing well, i dont think he gets in the team on the wing.

And who will be the better options at 12 come 2023?

mfceiling · 09-12-2020 3:16pm

TRC10 wrote: »

Would stockdale be that much better on the wing though? He still makes the same errors playing on the wing. Fumbling kicks, missing tackles, kicking possession away after line breaks etc. And with Lowe now qualified and earls playing well, i dont think he gets in the team on the wing.

And who will be the better options at 12 come 2023?

A lot of those kicks away result in him regaining the ball and flying over the tryline.

TRC10 · 09-12-2020 4:33pm

mfceiling wrote: »

A lot of those kicks away result in him regaining the ball and flying over the tryline.

Not many since 2018, it has to be said. I love the guy dont get me wrong, but he let's in more tries than he scores these days. Doesn't matter if hes wearing 11 or 15.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-12-2020 4:46pm

TRC10 wrote: »

Not many since 2018, it has to be said. I love the guy dont get me wrong, but he let's in more tries than he scores these days. Doesn't matter if hes wearing 11 or 15.

I’m inclined to agree. I don’t have a problem with the experiment of playing 15. Ireland tries Henshaw at 15 for one game and he had a bad game and they never tried it again, but he was a very good fullback for Connacht.

That game was the first in the current run of 5 games where Ireland was comprehensively beaten by England. The Henshaw at 15 experiment suffered the same fate as Byrne at 10 later in the year when England again beat Ireland pretty badly.

I think the new approach has given Stockdale far, far more time to improve and prove himself than Henshaw ever had.

bilston · 09-12-2020 6:54pm

Stockdale has probably made more clean breaks and made more metres than any other player in each game he has had a full back.

Now obviously that is half the story, but it also goes to show why he has been tried there. Personally I'd put him back on the wing now, not least because I wouldnt have him playing 15 for Ulster ahead of Michael Lowry, never mind playing 15 for Ireland, but the experiment wasn't without logic.

TRC10 · 09-12-2020 7:04pm

bilston wrote: »

Stockdale has probably made more clean breaks and made more metres than any other player in each game he has had a full back.

Now obviously that is half the story, but it also goes to show why he has been tried there. Personally I'd put him back on the wing now, not least because I wouldnt have him playing 15 for Ulster ahead of Michael Lowry, never mind playing 15 for Ireland, but the experiment wasn't without logic.

Full backs always make the most metres because they run the ball back from kicks. Ron Kearney was often top of the metres list. The whole full back experiment was to find him a spot in the team with lowe now qualified. But his form hasn't improved to I think hell struggle to get in the team now at 11 or 15.

Who will be Ireland's 1st choice outhalf at the next world cup?

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