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New Worldwide Handicap System

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,064 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Obviously no convincing you, having played under both systems for a number of years. The new system is a much fairer system and more indicative of how you are currently playing. It makes it fairer for all levels of golf.
    And for players to actually gain 5 shots back takes so many bad games and so long to accomplish it can be hardly worth it.
    The best thing from my point of view is the slope rating differential from course to course which will take into consideration each course based on that. It will make inter club playing and competitions more competitive.

    clearly not but i do agree with the rest of this post :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 417 ✭✭martinkop


    Seems to me that the new system reflects current form, while the existing system reflects potential ability.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,914 ✭✭✭Russman


    Seve OB wrote: »
    nobody should expect to be regularly breaking 33 points off any handicap. thats the principle of the system.
    .

    This is the bit that IMO for whatever reason, the vast, vast majority of club golfers don't know/get/agree with/accept etc.
    From what I've seen and heard over the years there's a fairly widely held view that, for example a 10 handicapper should be in or around 10 over par, most of the time. I've genuinely never once, in 35 years playing since being a juvenile, heard anyone refer to your handicap as being your potential.
    That's not to say these people are correct, just there's been a communication breakdown somewhere along the line and an understanding of what your handicap actually is, hasn't been widely promoted.
    Maybe under the WHS, it'll change with effectively a handicap being regenerated ever 20 rounds. I know it's a rolling thing overall, but a completely new set of numbers will be in play 20 rounds after your first WHS handicap, so maybe guys will pay a bit more attention.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Russman wrote: »
    This is the bit that IMO for whatever reason, the vast, vast majority of club golfers don't know/get/agree with/accept etc.
    From what I've seen and heard over the years there's a fairly widely held view that, for example a 10 handicapper should be in or around 10 over par, most of the time. I've genuinely never once, in 35 years playing since being a juvenile, heard anyone refer to your handicap as being your potential.
    That's not to say these people are correct, just there's been a communication breakdown somewhere along the line and an understanding of what your handicap actually is, hasn't been widely promoted.
    Maybe under the WHS, it'll change with effectively a handicap being regenerated ever 20 rounds. I know it's a rolling thing overall, but a completely new set of numbers will be in play 20 rounds after your first WHS handicap, so maybe guys will pay a bit more attention.

    If people actually read how the CONGU handicap is calculated its obvious that its not an average...since...well, it doesnt involve calculating an average.
    • Its far easier to get cut than get an increase (0.1 max vs up to a full shot per shot)
    • You can get exceptional reductions
    • You can only increase 1.0 from your lowest
    • High scores are adjusted down to net double bogeys
    • There is a buffer zone based on your current handicap
    From the above it should be clear to anyone that cares enough to have an opinion that its nothing to do with what you should be scoring on average.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Ok lets say the 60 yr old playing off 27, makes a few great putts and has and unbelievable game and shoots 42 points the css for the day is 35. Loses 3 shots off his/her handicap and then doesn't break 33 points again for who knows how long. Takes him/her 3 years at 1 shot per 12 months.

    Now the silly talk is low handicappers wanting to win everything and complaining about mid to high handicappers. Well that's a grand idea drive all those members away from the game because you cant win everything. This is why is are divisions. Are you prepared to pay the extra membership and green fees when your club only has 40 or so active members playing?
    Personally I like the challenge of trying to beat high handicappers gives me a challenge to go out each day and shoot low.

    This guy will have a 3 shot buffer so will in all likelihood be in his buffer most of the time anyway...which is exactly the point.
    If he isnt then he will 0.1 his way back to where he should be.
    There is no right to have a competitive handicap everytime you step on the course, irrespective of how well or badly you are playing!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    The best 8 rounds are spread out over 20 rounds it's not like u will have a 72 replaced by a 92 you will have had average rounds inbetween.
    I think it will be a max of 3 non comp rounds allowed plus u will have to have played X amount of competitions to have a competition handicap same as u do now.

    U have to remember most Americans aren't members or play member comps.

    The swings won't be huge. U see plenty of guys getting a shot or 2 back so it's a bit of a myth that if u get a big cuts it's takes 3 years to go back up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭RoadRunner


    Seve OB wrote: »
    so if my next 4 rounds are the same as my last 4 rounds, i would jump to 16

    This is why I think it will ruin competition golf. Easy to build a massive HC quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭RoadRunner


    It will make inter club playing and competitions more competitive.

    20 rounds could be done in what 7 or 8 weeks by some people. Shoot 130+ each round. Handicapped interclub golf will become a joke.

    The american system works for the yanks, but they don't play in competitions each week like we do. Their golf is different. They play against their buddies with the only goal of taking the money. Mulligan good on that one again jim?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,914 ✭✭✭Russman


    GreeBo wrote: »
    If people actually read how the CONGU handicap is calculated its obvious that its not an average...since...well, it doesnt involve calculating an average.
    • Its far easier to get cut than get an increase (0.1 max vs up to a full shot per shot)
    • You can get exceptional reductions
    • You can only increase 1.0 from your lowest
    • High scores are adjusted down to net double bogeys
    • There is a buffer zone based on your current handicap
    From the above it should be clear to anyone that cares enough to have an opinion that its nothing to do with what you should be scoring on average.

    Ohh I totally agree. Its obvious since you get cut in bigger increments than you can increase by. But I'd suggest a huge amount of golfers, particularly (at the risk of causing some offence) older golfers, have never and will never read a CONGU manual of any sort, or even thought the whole argument through. These are guys who are about to go into the 3rd handicap system of their golfing lives.
    Its also a fairly simple thought to hold, 10 handicap = 10 over. TBH my issue is that I think the GUI and/or the clubs maybe should have done more to promote an explanation of handicap rather than just have it in a manual or on a website, given their target market.


  • Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    RoadRunner wrote: »
    20 rounds could be done in what 7 or 8 weeks by some people. Shoot 130+ each round. Handicapped interclub golf will become a joke.

    The american system works for the yanks, but they don't play in competitions each week like we do. Their golf is different. They play against their buddies with the only goal of taking the money. Mulligan good on that one again jim?

    It works well in countries with even more competitions than Ireland for example Australia, New Zealand and Asia. You can still only improve shots on your lowest score in any rolling 12 month period. In addition even playing 20 comp rounds at your own club @ 5 euros a round is 100 euro and as you say 6 or 7 weeks of bad golf to what win a 100 or 200 euro prize? So if you currently played off 12 and have been as low as 10 not matter how much you try and blow it out the max is still 15 and that's a hell of a lot of bad golf to even achieve that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 411 ✭✭Enter name here


    GreeBo wrote: »
    There is no right to have a competitive handicap everytime you step on the course, irrespective of how well or badly you are playing!

    Funniest thing I heard in a while, now I understand why Irish golfers win so rarely on the PGA. So if i was to believe you golfers shouldn't be competitive each time they walk onto a course? If that is the case why even bother with competitions? Why not just do as the Americans do and play a few cash games with the lads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,275 ✭✭✭slingerz


    martinkop wrote: »
    Seems to me that the new system reflects current form, while the existing system reflects potential ability.

    i can see a lot of people going out of form a few weeks out from the captains/presidents prizes..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,249 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Funniest thing I heard in a while, now I understand why Irish golfers win so rarely on the PGA. So if i was to believe you golfers shouldn't be competitive each time they walk onto a course? If that is the case why even bother with competitions? Why not just do as the Americans do and play a few cash games with the lads.

    No.
    Why would you think you should still be competitive if you are playing badly?
    If that was the case, why not calculate your handicap after 9 holes to make you more competitive on the back 9?
    Why not after every hole?

    Yeah, thats why Irish golfers do "so" badly, nothing to do with population at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,634 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    Seve OB wrote: »
    of course what you guys are forgetting with working out your handicaps per USGA is that this will not actually be your handicap, it will be your handicap index and your playing handicap will then vary from that from course to course!!!!

    And from tee box to tee box presumably too, given slope would be different for each box at each club


  • Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭Poker Face




  • Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Dotzie


    Under the new system a player’s handicap will be based on the average of eight best scores from their last 20 rounds. WHS will also take into account factors currently not fully represented in the existing handicapping procedure through a course and slope rating system.

    Are current handicaps going to change under the new slope system? Because if it does surely by advertising this the bandits out there will go out and shoot high scores to get a new inflated handicap


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,099 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    Think this could be a nightmare, maximum handicaps of 54 is silly and will just lead to more slow play. Whole thing seems far too complicated. I think the current system works quite well.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Hopefully there'll be something to stop handicap building because as it is it looks like heaven for the bandits.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭HighLine


    Think this could be a nightmare, maximum handicaps of 54 is silly and will just lead to more slow play. Whole thing seems far too complicated. I think the current system works quite well.

    That has been in place for over a year. I would be more worried about the provision to be introduced to allow a player to get back up to 5 shots in a calendar year.

    I also agree that the current system works well.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Maybe I'm being a bit dramatic but this could ruin golf as we know it lads. It seems quite easy to increase your handicap by several shots and quickly too.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't understand 5 shots back in a year, we had 2 shots and that was thought to be too much so we reduced it to 1.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    Hopefully you will only be able to affect your handicap in competition play in Ireland at least. Make the bandits spend money for their increase instead of clocking up all their shots back with casual rounds


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    Also hopefully that the slope of our golf courses will be affected by the weather we receive. I.e. a 7000 yard course in Ireland should have a much more difficult slope rating than a 7000 yard course in Texas by virtue of the weather we play in every day of the week


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,275 ✭✭✭slingerz


    If it only comes into effect on Nov 2, 2020 that will be a time of non-qualifying golf for most clubs as we know it. Will it be the case that a handicap can be cut/increased all year round now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭dan_ep82


    There is a lot of questions that need to be answered, I don't think a date should have been given without some sort of accompanying information for Ireland and the UK in particular.

    If they know when they can implement it they know what they want to implement.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Golf in Ireland & Britain is played completely differently than the US for example. They pretty much play casual golf only and enter their scores on an App which tracks and adjusts their HC.

    And as we all know the way they play with gimmies etc. which is why their HC's are a nonsense. We need to see some details but I'm holding out some hope as the R&A and the GUI have been very proactive in reducing the banditry over here and can't see them allowing someone increase their HC by 5 shots in a season.


  • Registered Users Posts: 981 ✭✭✭mighty magpie


    About handicap building, i would assume there is going to be some memory system built in.

    e.g. a long time 4-6 handicapper who shot maybe a +1 and a few +2s last season but is practicing less and is averaging +9 (best 8 of last 20) this season, system could apply a lower multiplier to someone who broke SSS by a certain number of shots. Something similar to a clause 19/ESR type rule we currently have.

    So instead of handicap going to 9, it may go out to 7.


  • Administrators Posts: 54,087 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Calculators to become standard equipment in all golf bags with this new system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,887 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    I cant wait, maybe I will finally win a Captains Prize :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,966 ✭✭✭RoadRunner


    etxp wrote: »
    I cant wait, maybe I will finally win a Captains Prize :P

    Except everyone in your club will be thinking the same thing and will also be turning in rubbish scores in the run up to it themselves too.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Golf in Ireland & Britain is played completely differently than the US for example. They pretty much play casual golf only and enter their scores on an App which tracks and adjusts their HC.

    And as we all know the way they play with gimmies etc. which is why their HC's are a nonsense. We need to see some details but I'm holding out some hope as the R&A and the GUI have been very proactive in reducing the banditry over here and can't see them allowing someone increase their HC by 5 shots in a season.

    Agree that handicaps in the US are a joke but people there play with far lower handicaps than they should - its about ego, not winning competitions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,887 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    RoadRunner wrote: »
    Except everyone in your club will be thinking the same thing and will also be turning in rubbish scores in the run up to it themselves too.

    Ah I'm only joking. I go out to try and beat my personal best each round.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭gypsy79




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    gypsy79 wrote: »

    That map of the world handicap systems is a real eye opener. CONGU is actually quite small. The EGA and USGA are pretty dominant on the world stage. Maybe that's why we have been lumbered with the 5 shots back in one year. CONGU just didn't have the clout in the negotiations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    If I'm reading it right, this is how a simple 8/20 would work for me

    Working out my handicap over my last 20 rounds, me best 8 cards are :: +11, +10, +9, +10, +7, +6, +5 and +1. This gives me an average of 7.375(7.4) which is 7.

    The next round I play, I'm going to lose the +5. So in order to stay off 7, I'll need to shoot +6 or better. If I don't beat +11, my total will be 65 as I have another +11 round to sub in and my new exact will be 8.125.

    The good news is, that for the next 6 rounds I'm free Wheeling as none of those rounds are counting in my calculation and I have 6 opportunities to get cut. The bad news is, if I play badly through to round 9, I'll lose the +1 and my new handicap will be around 10.5 lol


    That of course doesn't factor in slope and other such things, but for people genuinely trying to be their best, it's not bad at all. But for bandits its amazing!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,827 ✭✭✭fred funk }{


    Crazy, isn't it Rik?

    Wait until someone who's normally off 2 goes up to 7 HC and wins a club major....there'll be murder 😁


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    Rikand wrote: »
    If I'm reading it right, this is how a simple 8/20 would work for me

    Working out my handicap over my last 20 rounds, me best 8 cards are :: +11, +10, +9, +10, +7, +6, +5 and +1. This gives me an average of 7.375(7.4) which is 7.

    The next round I play, I'm going to lose the +5. So in order to stay off 7, I'll need to shoot +6 or better. If I don't beat +11, my total will be 65 as I have another +11 round to sub in and my new exact will be 8.125.

    The good news is, that for the next 6 rounds I'm free Wheeling as none of those rounds are counting in my calculation and I have 6 opportunities to get cut. The bad news is, if I play badly through to round 9, I'll lose the +1 and my new handicap will be around 10.5 lol


    That of course doesn't factor in slope and other such things, but for people genuinely trying to be their best, it's not bad at all. But for bandits its amazing!

    Think there is a multiplier as well. .9 something


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    Is it not the case that the handicap committee in each club still effectively will have the final say in determining handicaps. So, if someone is obviously 'acting the bollix' with the scores they are returning, the handicap committee can overrule the automated determination.
    What's the problem?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,421 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    Is it not the case that the handicap committee in each club still effectively will have the final say in determining handicaps. So, if someone is obviously 'acting the bollix' with the scores they are returning, the handicap committee can overrule the automated determination.
    What's the problem?

    It could leave the poor handicap sec open to accusations .... " Are you trying to tell me I'm not being genuine ? "


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,275 ✭✭✭slingerz


    Rikand wrote: »
    It could leave the poor handicap sec open to accusations .... " Are you trying to tell me I'm not being genuine ? "

    not to mention a whole load of work in managing that for an entire club


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  • Registered Users Posts: 758 ✭✭✭jtown


    Does anyone actually know how to calculate the new handicap system - Its hard to find it...

    Ive my 20 scores ready to go and my best 8


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,275 ✭✭✭slingerz


    gypsy79 wrote: »

    much better than what we've seen but still doesnt provide detail on what the new system is and how it will be applied practically to us golfers here and how the various competitions will work.

    There are so many variations in how each system works it will be interesting to see what model they come up with


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,887 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    Is it 20 last scores from this year or total? how does a NR work? I presume It isn't counted in the 20 scores.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,064 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    etxp wrote: »
    Is it 20 last scores from this year or total? how does a NR work? I presume It isn't counted in the 20 scores.

    NR = bring score to a net double bogey for handicap purposes.... ie clause 19 adjustment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    A NR shouldn't make it into your best 8 rounds.
    If u don't have 20 rounds then less rounds go to make up your Handicap index.

    Your Handicap Index is your best 8 rounds averaged out then multiply by .96.

    To do it right you have to have the course rating and slope rating to get your 8 best rounds as they might not be your 8 lowest scores.
    Score - course rating × 113÷ slope rating.
    80 - 72 × 113 ÷ 135 = 6.7 differential for that round.
    80 - 72 × 113 ÷ 125 = 7.2 differential for that round.

    That gives you a handicap differential and it's the lowest 8 of those u use.

    Say u had a 80 on a tough course and 75 on a easy course it maybe the 80 that makes it into your best 8.
    The slope and course rating are needed to do the calculation.
    All makes perfect sense.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    jtown wrote: »
    Does anyone actually know how to calculate the new handicap system - Its hard to find it...

    Ive my 20 scores ready to go and my best 8

    You could work it from gross scores. But for handiness take your current handicap and say its 10 if one of your 8 best was 34 points then add 2 to your handicap (2 + 10 = 12). If you had 40 points subtract 4. (10 - 4 = 6) Do that for all 8 scores. Add them up and divide by 8.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭mike12


    You could work it from gross scores. But for handiness take your current handicap and say its 10 if one of your 8 best was 34 points then add 2 to your handicap (2 + 10 = 12). If you had 40 points subtract 4. (10 - 4 = 6) Do that for all 8 scores. Add them up and divide by 8.

    Not really if 2 golfers play a par 72 course and they both have shot say 8 rounds of 80. They could have very different handicaps depending on the difficulty of the course.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 668 ✭✭✭mjsc1970


    Jaybus lads, my head is melted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,886 ✭✭✭✭Roger_007


    I assume that a computer system will churn out the handicap adjustments but what I don't understand is how are 'recreational' rounds going to get into the system to be included in the calculation of handicaps?
    Am I missing something?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,726 ✭✭✭dan_ep82


    Roger_007 wrote: »
    I assume that a computer system will churn out the handicap adjustments but what I don't understand is how are 'recreational' rounds going to get into the system to be included in the calculation of handicaps?
    Am I missing something?

    You will need to sign in before the round to count. Same as comp.


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