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EU to recommend abolishing DST

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24567…56

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    #32
    fxotoole
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭fxotoole


    bennyineire wrote: »
    I think it's a great idea but ultimately we won't do it unless the U.K. agrees to it.

    So basically it won't happen here, trying to get the U.K. to follow an suggestion from Europe ain't gonna fly

    If Brexit becomes a reality, they would be under no obligation to follow any EU Directives ;)


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    #33
    bennyineire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    GarIT wrote: »
    IMO we should calculate the mean time for solar noon across the country, make that noon and never change the clocks at any time during the year. If schools and work needs to start at 8am or 10am that's fine, it's only an abstract concept relative to a solar day anyway.

    12pm should be the middle of the solar day and we should keep it at that all year long.

    Fatal flaw there, true noon is at a different time of the day depending where you are in Ireland


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    #34
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Conall Cernach wrote: »
    If they keep us on Summer time then Noon (the point at which the Sun is highest in the sky) will not be Noon (12 O'Clock). I know that this has not been the case in Ireland since the adoption of GMT but we are only a few minutes behind.

    It’s not like that in summer now either. In the west noon is 1:30 pm


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    #35
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    GarIT wrote: »
    IMO we should calculate the mean time for solar noon across the country, make that noon and never change the clocks at any time during the year. If schools and work needs to start at 8am or 10am that's fine, it's only an abstract concept relative to a solar day anyway.

    12pm should be the middle of the solar day and we should keep it at that all year long.

    Doing that would basically mean starting our own timezone of something like GMT -30 or 40 minutes which would just be more awkward.

    Not that I completely disagree with your thinking....I just don't think it would be very practical.


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    #36
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Riskymove wrote: »
    GMT is different issue Ireland would remain in the same timezone

    if UK kept DST Ireland would be on GMT for half the year along with UK and then an hour apart the other half

    but that is if UK kept it

    No? We will never be on GMT if this happens.


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    #37
    bennyineire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    fxotoole wrote: »
    If Brexit becomes a reality, they would be under no obligation to follow any EU Directives ;)

    It won't be a directive though, not a hope. It will only be a recommendation at best. The final say will still rest with the member state.


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    #38
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    GarIT wrote: »
    IMO we should calculate the mean time for solar noon across the country, make that noon and never change the clocks at any time during the year. If schools and work needs to start at 8am or 10am that's fine, it's only an abstract concept relative to a solar day anyway.

    12pm should be the middle of the solar day and we should keep it at that all year long.

    What you are asking for here is a specific timezone for Ireland. That’s what time zones are, averages of the solar noon within that time zone. You want ireland to be GMT + 20minutes.

    However the average will work only in one part of Ireland because the rest of Ireland won’t be exactly right for their solar noon.

    (Actually to get more advanced that’s not true either. Solar Noon isn’t 24 hours apart).

    So pointless.


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    #39
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    bennyineire wrote: »
    It won't be a directive though, not a hope. It will only be a recommendation at best. The final say will still rest with the member state.

    Directives are not binding either.


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    #40
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    No? We will never be on GMT if this happens.

    well yes we'll be GMT+1

    but we will still be the same time as UK half the year and an hour apart the rest

    GMT+1

    The Uk will be on GMT+1 half the year and GMT the other half


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    #41
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    bennyineire wrote: »
    It won't be a directive though, not a hope. It will only be a recommendation at best. The final say will still rest with the member state.

    There is already an EU directive about DST

    that is what has led to the EU review


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    #42
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Directives are not binding either.

    yes they are...why else would the EU be able to take States to court for not abiding by them


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    #43
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Riskymove wrote: »
    well yes we'll be GMT+1

    Which isn’t GMT.

    Anyway the worst thing we could do is winter time all year round, but at least they are not suggesting that.


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    #44
    citytillidie
    Registered Users Posts: 22,014 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    hour difference going 5 mins down the road will be fun

    ******



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    #45
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,176 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Would anyone vote for longer working days in summer and shorter in Winter?


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    #46
    Infini
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    So it will not get bright till close on 10am in the west in the dead of winter.

    Stupid idea.

    Actually the winter is when clocks are at their correct position. Its the summer where theyre off by 1hr.

    What it would mean though is in the summer the sun would set at 9pm and rise at 3am in ireland during mid summer.

    Edit: Noticed that they want to stay on "Summer time" all year round. Definately wouldnt work for us here. Rather we should be on "winter time" all year round as we'd be matched to the solar day nore accurately.


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    #47
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,208 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Would anyone vote for longer working days in summer and shorter in Winter?

    I'd rather work longer in the winter when the weather's shíte and have more time off in the summer when the weather's... a warmer type of shíte.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #48
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    citytillidie wrote: »
    hour difference going 5 mins down the road will be fun

    it should be noted that this is the current reality in parts of Europe and other parts of the world and they manage


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    #49
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,176 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    GLaDOS wrote: »
    I'd rather work longer in the winter when the weather's sh and have more time off in the summer when the weather's... a warmer type of sh.

    Hmm, if we could get the schools on board it might not be a bad idea.
    I was thinking more along the lines of pulling the old switcharoo after two years and making the shorter working day standard all year round.


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    #50
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    bennyineire wrote: »
    Fatal flaw there, true noon is at a different time of the day depending where you are in Ireland

    Hence I used the word mean, so average, both averaged geographically and between days. Calculate one overall average time for the whole country and use that.

    As a couple of users have pointed out that would probably have us at an awkward timezone. It could be partially resolved by rounding to the nearest 30 mins, or even to the nearest hour would be good enough.

    Given geographic differences and differences between days it can't be done exactly but I think solar noon should be 12pm +/- 30 mins or if that can't be done in a way that accommodates business and ease of transitioning +/- 60 minutes, but we should roughly center out day around the average solar noon as much as possible instead of being 90 mins off as we are at the moment.


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    #51
    Sardine
    Site Banned Posts: 210 ✭✭Sardine


    I really hate the 4pm darkness. Please let this happen.


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    #52
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    GarIT wrote: »
    As a couple of users have pointed out that would probably have us at an awkward timezone. It could be partially resolved by rounding to the nearest 30 mins, or even to the nearest hour would be good enough.

    Yeah none of this 45 minutes nonsense like they have some places please.


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    #53
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    wexie wrote: »
    Doing that would basically mean starting our own timezone of something like GMT -30 or 40 minutes which would just be more awkward.

    Not that I completely disagree with your thinking....I just don't think it would be very practical.

    I'd be fine with -30, lots of countries do it, -40 would be a bit weird. Time zones are mostly handled by computers too, it wouldn't really make a difference to most things.

    Travelling through europe if you've a modern smartphone the time will adjust itself within seconds, and google maps or a good satnav takes time zones into account when planning arrival times.


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    #54
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,885 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Which isn’t GMT.

    Anyway the worst thing we could do is winter time all year round, but at least they are not suggesting that.

    Actually it seems states would be free to choose time zone

    So we could choose to be on GMT but the issue would still be the UK if they retain DST


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    #55
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,048 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    topper75 wrote: »
    I'd be keen to learn why would you reckon that this morning hour (when most are in a lit classroom/workplace anyway) is the time of the day when we need the daylight. Would the daylight not be used better when kids and 9-5 workers have a chance to use it outdoors?

    Here is my take on it.

    If we had constant “summer time” then in high summer we would have daylight from approx. 4am to approx. 11pm

    In low winter we would have daylight from approx 9.30am to 5.30pm.

    In low winter the weather tends to be bad which effects day light, thus it could dark well before 5.30pm most evenings.

    The same bad weather would also mean that it could get bright later than 9.30am

    So in that case I’d value the morning light much higher than the evening light.


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    #56
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 15,048 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Infini wrote: »
    Actually the winter is when clocks are at their correct position. Its the summer where theyre off by 1hr.

    What it would mean though is in the summer the sun would set at 9pm and rise at 3am in ireland during mid summer.

    Edit: Noticed that they want to stay on "Summer time" all year round. Definately wouldnt work for us here. Rather we should be on "winter time" all year round as we'd be matched to the solar day nore accurately.

    Another reason to keep things as they are

    The 3am sunrise is of no use to anyone, but a 9pm sunset in summer is a pain

    In summer I value the evening light greater than the morning light.
    In winter I value the morning light greater than the evening light


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    #57
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,521 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    bennyineire wrote: »
    Of course we will, not all European laws are the same for each country. This is not the USA.

    Each member state can still choose if they want to keep DST or not





    Also as you may or may not be aware 6 of the counties on this island are in the U.K. also the majority of our international business dealings are still with the U.K., I can guaranteed that Irish business will kick up a stink if we have a different time than the UK

    Biggest proportion of our international trade is with the US, Rest of EU and then UK which is 3rd at 12.5%.

    There is no rationale for not changing just because the UK does not want to.


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    #58
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    GarIT wrote: »
    Hence I used the word mean, so average, both averaged geographically and between days. Calculate one overall average time for the whole country and use that.

    As a couple of users have pointed out that would probably have us at an awkward timezone. It could be partially resolved by rounding to the nearest 30 mins, or even to the nearest hour would be good enough.

    That either gets you back to GMT or GMT+1.
    Given geographic differences and differences between days it can't be done exactly but I think solar noon should be 12pm +/- 30 mins or if that can't be done in a way that accommodates business and ease of transitioning +/- 60 minutes, but we should roughly center out day around the average solar noon as much as possible instead of being 90 mins off as we are at the moment.

    Ok, we are now back to GMT again. Which means we are two hours out from Europe in summer if this directive passes, and 1 hour out from british summer time if they ignore it.

    What’s the fetish with solar noon being the same as clock noon? Provided it’s an hour or two doesn’t make a difference. We aren’t, er farmers (if they even care about solar noon) and you can’t get it exact anyway as the equation of time means there’s up to a +- 15M difference between solar and clock noon throughout the year, even in someplace which is directly average for clock and solar noon on the equinox.


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    #59
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Would anyone vote for longer working days in summer and shorter in Winter?

    I'd vote for it the other way around.


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    #60
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    We aren’t, er farmers (if they even care about solar noon)

    I think they're probably more concerned with light and dark if anything.


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    #61
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    Here is my take on it.

    If we had constant “summer time” then in high summer we would have daylight from approx. 4am to approx. 11pm

    In low winter we would have daylight from approx 9.30am to 5.30pm.

    In low winter the weather tends to be bad which effects day light, thus it could dark well before 5.30pm most evenings.

    The same bad weather would also mean that it could get bright later than 9.30am

    So in that case I’d value the morning light much higher than the evening light.

    Why, though?
    In the mornings, I get out of bed, shower, get dressed and go to work. I then spend my day at work, and return home around 5pm (ish). To have a bit of daylight left to go for a run or other kind of exercise would be invaluable, while it really doesn't make the slightest difference to me if it gets bright at 8.30 or 9.30 - I'd be in work.


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