Australian Response

monkeybutter · 01-02-2021 12:56pm

colmtheperson wrote: »

Compare that to the Irish response back when they moved the country to lv5 after 6 days of political talks following 1,205 cases were recorded on the 15th of October

Honestly I can't see this government surviving the next election

when is this next election exactly

you currently have the 2 parties who have been elected through the entire history of the state in collation

they are happy out

Red Silurian · 01-02-2021 7:41pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

when is this next election exactly

you currently have the 2 parties who have been elected through the entire history of the state in collation

they are happy out

It will be February 2025 at the latest...

A long time, I know but I'll bet COVID will dominate the mid-terms

derfderf · 03-02-2021 1:42am

colmtheperson wrote: »

Compare that to the Irish response back when they moved the country to lv5 after 6 days of political talks following 1,205 cases were recorded on the 15th of October

Honestly I can't see this government surviving the next election

Up until Winter Ireland didn't seem to be doing too bad in comparison. The Irish have a bit more of a rebel spirit in them compared to Australians though.
Even officials. The gardai might let you off with a warning on occasion, but I've never heard of that with Australin police. You break a rule, you're getting fined. There's no grey area here.

Peregrinus · 03-02-2021 2:22am

derfderf wrote: »

Up until Winter Ireland didn't seem to be doing too bad in comparison. The Irish have a bit more of a rebel spirit in them compared to Australians though.
Even officials. The gardai might let you off with a warning on occasion, but I've never heard of that with Australin police. You break a rule, you're getting fined. There's no grey area here.

Australians have this national self-image as a country of larrikins, filled with the spirit of the bushranger, forever cocking a snook at authority.

But, in truth, compared to Ireland the place is a police state.

derfderf · 03-02-2021 2:38am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Australians have this national self-image as a country of larrikins, filled with the spirit of the bushranger, forever cocking a snook at authority.

But, in truth, compared to Ireland the place is a police state.

I would guess out in the bush it's a bit different, but you're not far wrong on the cities. There is a lot more personal responsibility too. Most people on public transport in Sydney were wearing masks when it wasn't mandatory, although that had started to tail off until the Christmas outbreak.

It is definitely easier to get people to toe the line when they see positive results though. Pubs here were closed for around four months in all last year. How long have they been closed in Ireland? If you had a few months of normality you could use that to sell the next lockdown to people, but lockdowns in Ireland seem to drop case numbers without ever really reaching the point where people can go about their business as normal.

03-02-2021 8:57am

No cases found for last 2 days but that’s the least of the worries for people living in the Perth suburbs.

Extensive bush fire right now which doesn’t look like it’s abating. My girls in the blue zone which means they’re not in imminent danger but it’s the direction the wind is taking so they have to watch out for embers starting smaller fires.

Peregrinus · 03-02-2021 9:34am

derfderf wrote: »

I would guess out in the bush it's a bit different, but you're not far wrong on the cities . . .

But that's practically everybody. Australia is one of the most urbanised societies in the world.

derfderf wrote: »

There is a lot more personal responsibility too. Most people on public transport in Sydney were wearing masks when it wasn't mandatory, although that had started to tail off until the Christmas outbreak.

It is definitely easier to get people to toe the line when they see positive results though. Pubs here were closed for around four months in all last year. How long have they been closed in Ireland? If you had a few months of normality you could use that to sell the next lockdown to people, but lockdowns in Ireland seem to drop case numbers without ever really reaching the point where people can go about their business as normal.

The problem is that, so long as infection rates in the UK are high (and they have been consistently high) no amount of lockdown in Ireland is going to get infection rates down to the levels that enable relative normality in Ireland — unless the government is prepared to close (and I mean close) the borders.

And, compared to Australia, Ireland is such an open country to the UK (inc NI) both socially and economically, that that would be (a) politically very difficult, if not actually impossible, and (b) massively more costly to the economy than the Australian border closure has been.

Which is kind of the point I came into the thread a while ago to make. Ireland is not Australia. There are useful lessons to be learned from the Australian experience, but Ireland can't simply mirror what Australia does and, if it did, it wouldn't have the outcomes that Australia has had.

derfderf · 03-02-2021 1:28pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, compared to Australia, Ireland is such an open country to the UK (inc NI) both socially and economically, that that would be (a) politically very difficult, if not actually impossible, and (b) massively more costly to the economy than the Australian border closure has been.

I agree with the rest of your post, but not this. It is more difficult, definitely, but hard decisions have to be made. The border wouldn't be closed to cargo, just people. I don't see how banning travel from the UK for a certain amount of time is more costly than completely locking down Ireland for the same amount of time.

Politically, somebody has to take a hit. The EU is supposed to be a free travel area, there were border closures. The were state border closures in Australia too. The North is difficult to police, but "closing" that border would stop most people that would normally travel. Obviously the type of people that scream at retail workers for asking them to wear a mask wouldn't comply, but you would hope that would be a small minority.

Bsharp · 03-02-2021 2:54pm

The difference is our cargo involves people. Australia doesn't have roll-on roll-off trucks coming from the UK and the continent. We have a few thousand trucks, each with a driver, coming in and out on a daily basis.

We need an agreed EU wide plan for Logistics if we're to follow the Australian approach. I can't imagine a truck driver, or haulage company, will risk coming here and getting quarantined for two weeks if they test positive on arrival. Then there's the issue of the truck, its goods and no replacement driver.

The alternative is to ban the trucks and see how long businesses last before we run out of stock, which obviously isn't palatable. That said, if we only allow freight movements then we've a better chance of keeping numbers low and businesses open.

httpete · 03-02-2021 5:28pm

Bsharp wrote: »

The difference is our cargo involves people. Australia doesn't have roll-on roll-off trucks coming from the UK and the continent. We have a few thousand trucks, each with a driver, coming in and out on a daily basis.

We need an agreed EU wide plan for Logistics if we're to follow the Australian approach. I can't imagine a truck driver, or haulage company, will risk coming here and getting quarantined for two weeks if they test positive on arrival. Then there's the issue of the truck, its goods and no replacement driver.

The alternative is to ban the trucks and see how long businesses last before we run out of stock, which obviously isn't palatable. That said, if we only allow freight movements then we've a better chance of keeping numbers low and businesses open.

This is the most ridiculous argument and I see it being made repeatedly. As if this was some problem without a solution. There are lots of solutions, the most simple and obvious one straight off the top of my head is to just switch the container onto a different truck once the incoming truck arrives in Ireland. Then send that incoming truck back, possibly with a different container of goods to make things more efficient. We don't need to wait 2 months for and 'EU wide plan for Logistics' for simple obvious measures. No wonder the EU and Ireland have made such a mess of things with that type of reasoning. Taiwan/NZ/Oz/South Korea/Singapore/etc just ACT, and act fast, they don't f*ck about with nonsense like long-drawn out reports or committees when it comes to making blatantly obvious measures to reduce risk.

Jesus christ I'm sick of hearing about why we can't do, this, that and the other to reduce the risk of importing the virus (especially new variants) when there are blatantly obvious solutions. Like with the North, you don't need to man very border crossing with Gardai, you can just block 95% of roads with heavy duty concrete bollards and man the remaining 5% with Gardai who can check that people passing through are on essential business. Even if it doesn't fully stop border crossing it will cut it to absolutely minuscule levels. Just like switching containers onto different trucks will cut risks from truck drivers importing the virus to minuscule levels. There are 100000s of people out of work, I'm sure we can find some to drive a few trucks.

puzl · 03-02-2021 5:34pm

httpete wrote: »

Even if it doesn't fully stop border crossing it will cut it to absolutely minuscule levels.

I agree with you on this. Tired of people saying "You're really excellent idea is not perfect and therefore won't help." Of course it will help. The race is on between vaccinations and the spread of new variants and *anything* we can do to dampen them will help. We used to call it flattening to curve to protect the health system. It seems like there's zero-covid or bust mentality now.

What you propose is very workable. Block off most roads except manned major arteries.

Bsharp · 03-02-2021 6:46pm

httpete wrote: »

This is the most ridiculous argument and I see it being made repeatedly. As if this was some problem without a solution. There are lots of solutions, the most simple and obvious one straight off the top of my head is to just switch the container onto a different truck once the incoming truck arrives in Ireland. Then send that incoming truck back, possibly with a different container of goods to make things more efficient. We don't need to wait 2 months for and 'EU wide plan for Logistics' for simple obvious measures. No wonder the EU and Ireland have made such a mess of things with that type of reasoning. Taiwan/NZ/Oz/South Korea/Singapore/etc just ACT, and act fast, they don't f*ck about with nonsense like long-drawn out reports or committees when it comes to making blatantly obvious measures to reduce risk.

Jesus christ I'm sick of hearing about why we can't do, this, that and the other to reduce the risk of importing the virus (especially new variants) when there are blatantly obvious solutions. Like with the North, you don't need to man very border crossing with Gardai, you can just block 95% of roads with heavy duty concrete bollards and man the remaining 5% with Gardai who can check that people passing through are on essential business. Even if it doesn't fully stop border crossing it will cut it to absolutely minuscule levels. Just like switching containers onto different trucks will cut risks from truck drivers importing the virus to minuscule levels. There are 100000s of people out of work, I'm sure we can find some to drive a few trucks.

So where are we getting double the amount of trucks to pull the trailers?

httpete · 03-02-2021 8:09pm

Bsharp wrote: »

So where are we getting double the amount of trucks to pull the trailers?

"Volume of trucks arriving in Ireland is 50% lower than expected due to Covid restrictions and Brexit"

https://www.thejournal.ie/volume-of-trucks-arriving-in-ireland-lower-than-expected-5328346-Jan2021/

And if we need more buy them..the cost of buying more trucks if it came to it would be a drop in the ocean compared to how much money has been and is being lost due to lockdowns.

derfderf · 04-02-2021 12:55am

Some good points being made. I think the point I was trying to make is if cases spike because Ireland tried opening up pubs etc, and this leads to another lockdown, it's easier for the public to swallow that than to be locked at home, but the cases are steady/increasing because of people arriving from the North.
Obviously we can't completely stop people, there'd be no drugs in Ireland if the borders were completely secure, but most people will not come if there are obstacles in the way.

Chivito550 · 13-02-2021 1:47am

Melbourne back into a 5 day lockdown.

Always remember that the threat of a lockdown at a moments notice is not normality, no matter what our media here say. Australia may have things better than us right now, but nothing about this is normal.

People who had weddings planned for tomorrow have had the rug pulled from beneath them 1 day out. This is not "normality". You can't plan anything with confidence.

poppers · 13-02-2021 10:15am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Melbourne back into a 5 day lockdown.

Always remember that the threat of a lockdown at a moments notice is not normality, no matter what our media here say. Australia may have things better than us right now, but nothing about this is normal.

People who had weddings planned for tomorrow have had the rug pulled from beneath them 1 day out. This is not "normality". You can't plan anything with confidence.

Apparently they had to send the fans home from the tennis before Dojovick match was over as they would have been in breach of the restrictions otherwise.

stargazer 68 · 13-02-2021 12:36pm

Tweet from Adam Hills re Melbourne about all the restaurants etc having to close on one of their busiest weekends of the year. Cancel bookings and possibly dump all the stock they have ordered in.

is_that_so · 13-02-2021 4:57pm

stargazer 68 wrote: »

Tweet from Adam Hills re Melbourne about all the restaurants etc having to close on one of their busiest weekends of the year. Cancel bookings and possibly dump all the stock they have ordered in.

It's just a reminder that there is no one perfect approach to COVID.

httpete · 13-02-2021 5:56pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Melbourne back into a 5 day lockdown.

Always remember that the threat of a lockdown at a moments notice is not normality, no matter what our media here say. Australia may have things better than us right now, but nothing about this is normal.

People who had weddings planned for tomorrow have had the rug pulled from beneath them 1 day out. This is not "normality". You can't plan anything with confidence.

They still have it infinitely better than us who are going to be locked down for at least 6 months this time round, only a month after emerging from the October-November lockdown.

If we are looking at several years before the end of this pandemic I would much rather spend it in a country that locks down 2 or 3 times a year for a week or whatever when necessary and is FULLY OPEN outside those periods, than in a country that is in level 5 down for 8-10 months of the year and even when it is not in level 5 it is not fully open.

httpete · 13-02-2021 6:01pm

If the vaccines don't get the job done, and it is by no means guaranteed that they will get the job done, people who are against zero Covid really need to start thinking how they would prefer to spend the next 3-7 years: locked down or at the very least heavily restricted for very significant portions of the year, or fully open with very strong controls on incoming travel, namely mandatory hotel quarantine. Now that we are restricted from flying out of the country anyway I am really failing to see what we are losing out on by going for a full zero Covid and opening up the country 100% internally. At the moment we have all the drawbacks of a zero Covid (no outgoing travel, that's really about the only drawback), with no of the benefits.

Chivito550 · 13-02-2021 9:14pm

httpete wrote: »

They still have it infinitely better than us who are going to be locked down for at least 6 months this time round, only a month after emerging from the October-November lockdown.

If we are looking at several years before the end of this pandemic I would much rather spend it in a country that locks down 2 or 3 times a year for a week or whatever when necessary and is FULLY OPEN outside those periods, than in a country that is in level 5 down for 8-10 months of the year and even when it is not in level 5 it is not fully open.

Swings and Roundabouts. They are in their summer right now. Melbourne suffered a miserable 112 day lockdown last winter. Something similar could very well happen again next winter. I'm not overly envious.

I used to live there, and some Aussie friends were envious of us back in August!

httpete · 13-02-2021 9:21pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Swings and Roundabouts. They are in their summer right now. Melbourne suffered a miserable 112 day lockdown last winter. Something similar could very well happen again next winter. I'm not overly envious.

I used to live there, and some Aussie friends were envious of us back in August!

They were in their second wave at that point, look at their graph: https://www.google.com/search?q=melbourne+coronavirus&oq=melbourne+coron&aqs=chrome.0.0i131i433j69i57j0l4j46i175i199j0i457.2183j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Since then Australia has it controlled with mandatory hotel quarantine while we are facing a 6 month lockdown less than a month after coming out of the Oct-Nov lockdown.

So it is not swings and roundabouts, they have, and have had since September, a much higher quality life than us since they have the virus suppressed like NZ, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. They will continue to have a high quality of life with occasional short lockdowns if necessary, while we continue being locked up.

Are you honestly telling me life in Ireland vs life in Oz is 'swings and roundabouts' for the period Sept 2020 to June 2021 (and potentially even longer by the way the government here are talking)?

Chivito550 · 13-02-2021 9:28pm

httpete wrote: »

They were in their second wave at that point, look at their graph: https://www.google.com/search?q=melbourne+coronavirus&oq=melbourne+coron&aqs=chrome.0.0i131i433j69i57j0l4j46i175i199j0i457.2183j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Since then Australia has it controlled with mandatory hotel quarantine while we are facing a 6 month lockdown less than a month after coming out of the Oct-Nov lockdown.

So it is not swings and roundabouts, they have, and have had since September, a much higher quality life than us since they have the virus suppressed like NZ, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. They will continue to have a high quality of life with occasional short lockdowns if necessary, while we continue being locked up.

Are you honestly telling me life in Ireland vs life in Oz is 'swings and roundabouts' for the period Sept 2020 to June 2021 (and potentially even longer by the way the government here are talking)?

Nah, definitely not saying its better here.

I'm also focusing on Victoria, and Melbourne in particular tbh. The rest of Australia has had it very handy.

But it has been anything but in Melbourne. And it was late October when they came out of one of the strictest lockdowns on earth.

Let's see how it pans out for them this winter.

mandrake04 · 14-02-2021 2:24am

In fairness Melbourne being the most “European” type city in Australia took it literally and went the embarrassingly European approach which is kinda retarded.

Victoria but mostly Melbourne had 19400 community cases and the other 80% of the population only had about 3000

I think they will recover soon enough, they learnt a lot from the last outbreak and fighting this virus is a learning progression. Other countries still have to learn their own lessons in time, then the penny will drop.

I think people who think that 1st generation of vaccines is going beat this virus is delusional, it’s going take a hybrid of vaccinations, travel restrictions and local restrictions until 2nd and 3rd generation vaccines render it an endemic disease like the flu.

derfderf · 14-02-2021 3:07am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Nah, definitely not saying its better here.

I'm also focusing on Victoria, and Melbourne in particular tbh. The rest of Australia has had it very handy.

But it has been anything but in Melbourne. And it was late October when they came out of one of the strictest lockdowns on earth.

Let's see how it pans out for them this winter.

I've read the toughest lockdown on earth thing a few times. How is is tougher than what's happening in Ireland at the moment? Outdoor masks is the only thing extra i can think of, but that's not much of a burden.

mandrake04 · 14-02-2021 8:44am

derfderf wrote: »

I've read the toughest lockdown on earth thing a few times. How is is tougher than what's happening in Ireland at the moment? Outdoor masks is the only thing extra i can think of, but that's not much of a burden.

More or less exactly same as L5 in Ireland, only differences I think aside from masks is in Victoria you are allowed to visit your partner that may be more than 5km away. There’s no restriction on distance in that respect.

is_that_so · 14-02-2021 2:48pm

One of the things you'd wonder about is how Australia and NZ will respond in a post-pandemic environment. Imagine at some future point most people are vaccinated, there are very few cases around the world and the majority of countries are 100 days+ without a case. A case or two emerge here and we'll test, contact trace, isolate, treat etc. with no effect whatsoever on normal life. What would the zero-COVID countries do in that instance? Will they once again lock down whole cities and borders?

httpete · 14-02-2021 5:25pm

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the things you'd wonder about is how Australia and NZ will respond in a post-pandemic environment. Imagine at some future point most people are vaccinated, there are very few cases around the world and the majority of countries are 100 days+ without a case. A case or two emerge here and we'll test, contact trace, isolate, treat etc. with no effect whatsoever on normal life. What would the zero-COVID countries do in that instance? Will they once again lock down whole cities and borders?

Yes that's probably what will happen because we all know Taiwan/NZ/Oz/Signapore/Vietnam/South Korea/etc are too thick to vaccinate their populations.

httpete · 14-02-2021 5:27pm

News articles like these are probably fake news:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/12/new-zealand-covid-vaccines-to-arrive-one-month-early-border-staff-to-be-inoculated-next-week
https://focustaiwan.tw/society/202102090023

doublejobbing 2 · 14-02-2021 5:39pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Melbourne back into a 5 day lockdown.

Always remember that the threat of a lockdown at a moments notice is not normality, no matter what our media here say. Australia may have things better than us right now, but nothing about this is normal.

People who had weddings planned for tomorrow have had the rug pulled from beneath them 1 day out. This is not "normality". You can't plan anything with confidence.

is_that_so wrote: »

It's just a reminder that there is no one perfect approach to COVID.

Imagine thinking that living with the inconvenience that every once in a while your society may be put in hibernation for a fortnight is in any way comparable to living in a country that by Easter will have been in some form of lockdown for over a year (and of that time, what, 7 or 8 months of it having been hard lockdown?)

People who see anything wrong with how NZ and Australia handled this can only be from a FF/ FG diehard family, online party activists. Anybody who argues we could not have done this last year is beyond deluded. Indeed I think part of the reason the government has been so slow to introduce the steps they are bringing in now is that they will be ashamed when the clampdown on travel sees our cases go through the floor and proves that the steps should have been taken in April 2020, or, at the very latest, July when we had 9 odd cases a day.

is_that_so · 14-02-2021 6:36pm

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

Imagine thinking that living with the inconvenience that every once in a while your society may be put in hibernation for a fortnight is in any way comparable to living in a country that by Easter will have been in some form of lockdown for over a year (and of that time, what, 7 or 8 months of it having been hard lockdown?)

People who see anything wrong with how NZ and Australia handled this can only be from a FF/ FG diehard family, online party activists. Anybody who argues we could not have done this last year is beyond deluded. Indeed I think part of the reason the government has been so slow to introduce the steps they are bringing in now is that they will be ashamed when the clampdown on travel sees our cases go through the floor and proves that the steps should have been taken in April 2020, or, at the very latest, July when we had 9 odd cases a day.

It was actually just a question but off you go with this bizarre soapbox babbling. This has to be the most deranged post I've seen on this in the entire year. NHPET actually made the call BTW on our strategy but it was very clearly a deep state FFG cabal secretly plotting and pulling those strings aided and abetted, I will add, by the entire political system.

Peregrinus · 15-02-2021 2:05am

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the things you'd wonder about is how Australia and NZ will respond in a post-pandemic environment. Imagine at some future point most people are vaccinated, there are very few cases around the world and the majority of countries are 100 days+ without a case. A case or two emerge here and we'll test, contact trace, isolate, treat etc. with no effect whatsoever on normal life. What would the zero-COVID countries do in that instance? Will they once again lock down whole cities and borders?

Not necessarily because, of course, right now the immediate hard lockdown is undertaken in a context in which no-one is vaccinated - vaccination has yet to begin in Australia.

When the population is substantially vaccinated, the protocol for responding to isolated cases is likely to be different.

Hector Savage · 15-02-2021 4:07pm

Good article on the Telegraph ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/15/australia-paying-heavy-price-freedom/

paywalled so here ...

Here in Australia we are paying a heavy price for 'freedom'
Australia's Covid strategy is the envy of the world. But people should be careful what they wish for

Australia’s success against Covid has seen it held up by many around the world as a model for tackling the virus. Our pubs are open, people can go to concerts, spectators – at least at the start of the tournament – have been allowed to watch the tennis at the Australian Open and we even celebrated New Year’s Eve in a manner unthinkable in most countries. We certainly have done a good job of stamping out the virus.

However, to suggest that the Aussie approach is all rainbows and butterflies would be a grave mistake. Suppression has been achieved primarily through a ruthless use of “circuit-breaker” local lockdowns and the introduction of hotel quarantine for all people entering the country.

We live in constant fear of new outbreaks, the response to which is immediate and brutal. The whole state of Victoria, for example, is currently in a five-day lockdown after just 13 cases were linked to a quarantine worker in a Melbourne hotel. Even after a long period of success – Victoria went 28 days without any locally generated cases – freedom can come swiftly to a halt. We have no choice but to sit with our fingers crossed hoping that it’s not our state or, worse, our workplace that gets the notification.

This is a nightmare for businesses. One week, restaurants and bars have more customers than they can handle; the next they are trying to turn themselves into a takeaway overnight. Even in the good times, it’s hardly a return to what used to be normal. We have to scan QR codes, stick to capacity limits, masks are everywhere and in the pubs there’s no dancing and you have to stay seated. I’ve watched some of my favourite cafes, restaurants and bars close their doors for good; with the rules as they are it has been impossible to get enough bums on seats to keep businesses afloat.

Travellers coming into the country face an even tougher system than the one being introduced in Britain and the numbers of new arrivals allowed are strictly rationed to prevent the system being overwhelmed. Even for a relatively isolated country like Australia, this has huge impacts. I have a Canadian friend who is trapped here with no hope of seeing her family back in Montreal for the foreseeable future. She faces a long and agonising wait.

Those who want to travel within the country can face similar worries as travel between states is heavily restricted. I have been unable to visit my grandparents in Tasmania as they reach their nineties, or to meet my beautiful niece in Western Australia who is almost 2 years old already. It’s been hard not knowing the next time you’ll see your family, or even if you ever will see those who are elderly or ill.

The fact is that driving down cases, as we have been doing, can provide respite. It can save lives and it can buy time to test vaccines, which has been given by politicians as one of the justifications for Australia’s slow progress – an excuse which is now unravelling. Yet the side effects are huge and suppression is not going to get us back to normal. Our current situation may seem idyllic – but it carries a heavy price that shouldn’t be overlooked.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 15-02-2021 4:16pm

httpete wrote: »

This is the most ridiculous argument and I see it being made repeatedly. As if this was some problem without a solution. There are lots of solutions, the most simple and obvious one straight off the top of my head is to just switch the container onto a different truck once the incoming truck arrives in Ireland. Then send that incoming truck back, possibly with a different container of goods to make things more efficient.

Its not that simple and would take an enormous amount of work to make it work properly.

Suppliers in the UK/Ireland need trucks to deliver to the docks which they currently don't have, that's why transport companies are employed to collect/deliver loads directly from manufacturers/suppliers. What you are proposing would take twice the amount of trucks and is simply unworkable in any short term and would require harmony among almost the entire truck fleet companies in Europe, UK and Ireland. Its simply never going to happen.

doublejobbing 2 · 15-02-2021 5:07pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Good article on the Telegraph ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/15/australia-paying-heavy-price-freedom/

paywalled so here ...

That writer is an absolute thick, tbh.

Poor me, I live somewhere where there is a small chance that my life might be interrupted next week for a whole fortnight.

We have been in either lockdown or under the threat of a months long lockdown since last March.

They seem to have a bit of a chip about there being more rules now. Australia wrote the book on nanny statism and has rules and regulations that the EU would baulk at, so it isn't exactly anything new.

Noo · 15-02-2021 10:53pm

doublejobbing 2 wrote: »

That writer is an absolute thick, tbh.

Poor me, I live somewhere where there is a small chance that my life might be interrupted next week for a whole fortnight.

We have been in either lockdown or under the threat of a months long lockdown since last March.

They seem to have a bit of a chip about there being more rules now. Australia wrote the book on nanny statism and has rules and regulations that the EU would baulk at, so it isn't exactly anything new.

Yeah im not sure where that person is based. Where i am there are no masks, no noticeable capacity limits, people are definitely dancing. I havent seen any restaurants close, if anything theyre doing better than ever.

I can go to tasmania and WA without quarantine. And travellers coming in and leaving the country? You'd swear Australians were missing out on some jetsetter lifestyle the rest of the world are enjoying.

Im not saying their points are untrue, but they seem to have gathered all the restrictions that were in place at different times around the country and applied them to every australian. Its not the case. My life is as close to normal as could possibly be right now.

I know where id rather be.

mandrake04 · 15-02-2021 11:34pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Good article on the Telegraph ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/02/15/australia-paying-heavy-price-freedom/

paywalled so here ...

Yeah life is unbearable....LOLLLL

mandrake04 · 15-02-2021 11:56pm

Noo wrote: »

Yeah im not sure where that person is based. Where i am there are no masks, no noticeable capacity limits, people are definitely dancing. I havent seen any restaurants close, if anything theyre doing better than ever.

I can go to tasmania and WA without quarantine. And travellers coming in and leaving the country? You'd swear Australians were missing out on some jetsetter lifestyle the rest of the world are enjoying.

Im not saying their points are untrue, but they seem to have gathered all the restrictions that were in place at different times around the country and applied them to every australian. Its not the case. My life is as close to normal as could possibly be right now.

I know where id rather be.

So right, the begrudgers are only fooling themselves.

I'm happy to take a break from world travel as long as my kids are able to go to school and I can do the things I enjoy. Im not saying its perfect but 90% is good enough.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2021 2:35am

I agree. While the Australian pandemic measures are intrusive they are, for the most part, short and sharp, which makes them less intrusive than the long-drawn-out pandemic meausure that apply elsewhere.

Plus, they have worked. Australia's total deaths from covid are 909. Belgium and the Netherlands, taken together, have a similar population to Australia's; between them they've had more than 36,000 covid deaths, and they are, even still. clocking up more deaths every 10 days than Australia has had since the pandemic began.

There's no doubt an element of good luck in Australia's experience. But if you're simply balancing how burdensome covid measures are against how effective they are, Australia is in a much happier position than any European country.

Chivito550 · 16-02-2021 10:52am

Peregrinus wrote: »

I agree. While the Australian pandemic measures are intrusive they are, for the most part, short and sharp, which makes them less intrusive than the long-drawn-out pandemic meausure that apply elsewhere.

Plus, they have worked. Australia's total deaths from covid are 909. Belgium and the Netherlands, taken together, have a similar population to Australia's; between them they've had more than 36,000 covid deaths, and they are, even still. clocking up more deaths every 10 days than Australia has had since the pandemic began.

There's no doubt an element of good luck in Australia's experience. But if you're simply balancing how burdensome covid measures are against how effective they are, Australia is in a much happier position than any European country.

While there is no doubt merit in your general point, your comparisons are completely unfair. You are comparing one of the least densely populated countries on earth, an island nation, located far from anywhere else, to the second and third most densely populated countries in Europe (after Malta), with land borders with other nations. (The Netherlands is the size of Munster and has 17.3 million people).

Culturally the countries are very different too. I’ve lived in Melbourne, the most European city in Australia, and even there, there is a much more individualistic culture than we have in Europe. People live in big houses, with big backyards, in far flung suburbs, with huge gaps between their house and their neighbours houses. Friends of mine there told me they don’t know their neighbours. That’s completely different to Europe. Melbourne covers a similar land area as London, but it’s metropolitan area has 1/3rd of the population of London’s. Australians take to the mountains, national parks etc for holidays, and there is a great camping culture there. Europeans are more inclined to visit cities, festivals etc.

There’s got to be better places to make a comparison with surely?

SheepsClothing · 16-02-2021 11:18am

Chivito550 wrote: »

While there is no doubt merit in your general point, your comparisons are completely unfair. You are comparing one of the least densely populated countries on earth, an island nation, located far from anywhere else, to the second and third most densely populated countries in Europe (after Malta), with land borders with other nations. (The Netherlands is the size of Munster and has 17.3 million people).

Culturally the countries are very different too. I’ve lived in Melbourne, the most European city in Australia, and even there, there is a much more individualistic culture than we have in Europe. People live in big houses, with big backyards, in far flung suburbs, with huge gaps between their house and their neighbours houses. Friends of mine there told me they don’t know their neighbours. That’s completely different to Europe. Melbourne covers a similar land area as London, but it’s metropolitan area has 1/3rd of the population of London’s. Australians take to the mountains, national parks etc for holidays, and there is a great camping culture there. Europeans are more inclined to visit cities, festivals etc.

There’s got to be better places to make a comparison with surely?

There are several other countries which have successfully suppressed the virus, but they don't count, because they are Asian, or some other nonsense.

Chivito550 · 16-02-2021 11:22am

SheepsClothing wrote: »

There are several other countries which have successfully suppressed the virus, but they don't count, because they are Asian, or some other nonsense.

Well I didn't say that anyway. I just don't think Netherlands and Belgium are fair comparisons.

Taiwan is probably a better comparison in that its an island, but not in terms of population density.

Australia is one of the least ideal places on earth for a virus to run rampant. Couple that with a hard line approach, and the country has seen great results.

But make no mistake, there's a lot of good fortune involved.

trixi001 · 16-02-2021 2:10pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

I agree. While the Australian pandemic measures are intrusive they are, for the most part, short and sharp, which makes them less intrusive than the long-drawn-out pandemic meausure that apply elsewhere.

Plus, they have worked. Australia's total deaths from covid are 909. Belgium and the Netherlands, taken together, have a similar population to Australia's; between them they've had more than 36,000 covid deaths, and they are, even still. clocking up more deaths every 10 days than Australia has had since the pandemic began.

There's no doubt an element of good luck in Australia's experience. But if you're simply balancing how burdensome covid measures are against how effective they are, Australia is in a much happier position than any European country.

Or maybe Australia is different, in that it has year long round sunshine to some degree, an outside lifestyle and therefore people aren't deficient in Vitamin D, so aren't as susceptible to severe COVID...

Noo · 16-02-2021 10:48pm

trixi001 wrote: »

Or maybe Australia is different, in that it has year long round sunshine to some degree, an outside lifestyle and therefore people aren't deficient in Vitamin D, so aren't as susceptible to severe COVID...

Vitamin D deficiency is actually a common issue in australia. The sun smart campaign has been a little too successful in that regard.

mandrake04 · 17-02-2021 12:26am

Looks like Melbourne is off the hook, they are out of lockdown at midnight.

They have even re-advertised the tickets for the Open from for Thursday onwards.

derfderf · 17-02-2021 1:57am

Chivito550 wrote: »

While there is no doubt merit in your general point, your comparisons are completely unfair. You are comparing one of the least densely populated countries on earth, an island nation, located far from anywhere else, to the second and third most densely populated countries in Europe (after Malta), with land borders with other nations. (The Netherlands is the size of Munster and has 17.3 million people).

Culturally the countries are very different too. I’ve lived in Melbourne, the most European city in Australia, and even there, there is a much more individualistic culture than we have in Europe. People live in big houses, with big backyards, in far flung suburbs, with huge gaps between their house and their neighbours houses. Friends of mine there told me they don’t know their neighbours. That’s completely different to Europe. Melbourne covers a similar land area as London, but it’s metropolitan area has 1/3rd of the population of London’s. Australians take to the mountains, national parks etc for holidays, and there is a great camping culture there. Europeans are more inclined to visit cities, festivals etc.

There’s got to be better places to make a comparison with surely?

The population density arguement is not really valid as the population spread is really low. Greater Sydney has a similar population to Ireland, and is about 2/3rds the size of Leinster. There have been 5000 cases, and 100 deaths, overall.

Sydney is absolutely rammed too. It's not London, but it's definitely not Dublin. Almost everywhere within an hour of the city is full of apartment blocks. A lot of high rise too.

Peregrinus · 17-02-2021 4:07am

Chivito550 wrote: »

While there is no doubt merit in your general point, your comparisons are completely unfair. You are comparing one of the least densely populated countries on earth, an island nation, located far from anywhere else, to the second and third most densely populated countries in Europe (after Malta), with land borders with other nations. (The Netherlands is the size of Munster and has 17.3 million people).

Derfderf has answered this. What matters is not such much overall population density as population concentration. Australia is a highly urbanised society; 90% of the population live in just 0.2% of the country's land area.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Culturally the countries are very different too. I’ve lived in Melbourne, the most European city in Australia, and even there, there is a much more individualistic culture than we have in Europe. People live in big houses, with big backyards, in far flung suburbs, with huge gaps between their house and their neighbours houses. Friends of mine there told me they don’t know their neighbours. That’s completely different to Europe. Melbourne covers a similar land area as London, but it’s metropolitan area has 1/3rd of the population of London’s. Australians take to the mountains, national parks etc for holidays, and there is a great camping culture there. Europeans are more inclined to visit cities, festivals etc.

There is some truth in this. Australian suburbs do tend to be generously-spaced, and life is a bit more outdoorsy. This helps.

Chivito550 wrote: »

There’s got to be better places to make a comparison with surely?

What comparison were you expecting, in a thread devoted to the Australian response?

I've said all along that Ireland cannot expect simply to replicate Australian policies and achieve Australian results. The two countries are in different situations and different circumstances, in ways that are relevant to the pandemic and its management, so simply mindlessly following Australia would not serve us well. But that's not to say that we can't learn useful things from looking at the Australian experience, and that those useful things can't be used to shape strategies that work in Ireland.

Who should we look at, if not the countries whose strategies have worked well? And Australia is definitely one of these.

But, yeah, there definitely will be other countries from whose experiences we can also learn useful things.

mandrake04 · 17-02-2021 4:22am

derfderf wrote: »

The population density arguement is not really valid as the population spread is really low. Greater Sydney has a similar population to Ireland, and is about 2/3rds the size of Leinster. There have been 5000 cases, and 100 deaths, overall.

Sydney is absolutely rammed too. It's not London, but it's definitely not Dublin. Almost everywhere within an hour of the city is full of apartment blocks. A lot of high rise too.

Actually all of NSW including Sydney has only had 2177 Local cases and 54 deaths, the other 2900 cases never made it out of Hotel quarantine.

Metro Sydney has a population of 5.2m and is less than the size of Cork & Kerry.

They have done a lot of the the heavy lifting, mopping up the Ruby Princess and then mopping up all those F**king Victorians coming up spreading their germs last year while accepting the bulk of quarantine Travelers.

Mellor · 17-02-2021 5:20am

Chivito550 wrote: »

Always remember that the threat of a lockdown at a moments notice is not normality, no matter what our media here say. Australia may have things better than us right now, but nothing about this is normal.

Nobody said it was normal.
But the fact they are willing to do sudden 5 day lockdowns is why they are 5days or less and not 5 months after half-assing it

is_that_so wrote: »

A case or two emerge here and we'll test, contact trace, isolate, treat etc. with no effect whatsoever on normal life. What would the zero-COVID countries do in that instance? Will they once again lock down whole cities and borders?

To date, Australia is doing a far far better job of contact trace, isolate, treating that Ireland of anywhere else. Why are you expecting the vaccine to change that? It's not goign to give the irish government super-administration powers

Hector Savage wrote: »

Good article on the Telegraph ...

Yeah, that's complete nonsense. Nobody in Australia is living in fear of lockdown. They are mostly enjoying restaurants, pubs, sporting events , and an improved working situation.

Chivito550 wrote: »

You are comparing one of the least densely populated countries on earth, an island nation, located far from anywhere else, to the second and third most densely populated countries in Europe ...

Australia is the most urbanised country in the world. Most people live in cities. The outback drags down the country average but has no effect on covid resistance. Neither does a weekend in the national park once a year.

mandrake04 wrote: »

Metro Sydney has a population of 5.2m and is less than the size of Cork & Kerry.

Exactly.

Ireland is by comparison much less densely filled.

Chivito550 · 17-02-2021 9:36am

Hugely urbanised country, yes.

Densely population cities, no.

https://architectureau.com/articles/australian-cities-among-the-largest-and-least-densely-settled-in-the-world/

There's a good 94 page report called Demographia World Urban Areas which ranks all cities with a population of over 500,000. Australian cities are languishing towards the bottom. Most recent list is 2020. Its a PDF so can't figure out how to share it, but you'll find it easily through Google.

Low density, mixed with an outdoorsy culture, warm weather, the country's geographical position on earth, and a hard lined approach are the reasons for the relative success with Covid.

Place the population of Australia and the Government of Australia in Belgium and Netherlands' land area overnight, and it wouldn't be long before you would see different results.

Australian Response

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