Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

mariaalice · 26-02-2019 3:43pm

retro:electro wrote: »

Did you even watch the show? They stated many times how he was inappropriate, controlling and had an oppressive presence. She didn’t have a life outside of him. She couldn’t even meet her sister to try on dresses without him there. He didn’t have to be knocking ten bells out of her every evening to be abusive, maybe look up coercive control and it’s psychological manifestation. Oh, and did you miss the part where he savagely murdered her and her children with both a knife and an axe? Sounds pretty abusive to me.

Often its only seen as abuse if it is physical if they are generally kind and personable only wanting the best for their family, only doing it because they love their family, only doing it to protect the family being talked about, then it does not appear to be abuse but it is.

A lot of their life is about self-consciousness and shame and the distorted thinking leads them to believe if they can control everything they can save themselves in some way.

Nekarsulm · 26-02-2019 3:47pm

I distinctly remember a newspaper report at the time, regatding a memorial mass in his home parish.
There were 5 priests officiating, and part of the homily quoted was giving "thanks to the people of Cavan for taking him".
A very strange turn of phrase, as if they were fully aware of his character and didn't want him or his actions connected to his childhood area.

Lackey · 26-02-2019 3:47pm

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

I was thinking about this tragedy last week, before the show was announced. Incredible to think that the family still haven't received the full information on the murderer. Those poor people.

When Clodagh's sister said they found out details of the murders from the papers, and she had to ring the family liason officer and ask 'did he kill my sister with an axe?'
I had to pause the tv and compose myself.

Her family are private people, who exude class and grace at all times.
Forced back into the media spotlight to get answers to their questions, its a disgrace.
Give them access to whatever they want.

iamwhoiam · 26-02-2019 3:53pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/call-for-an-investigation-by-clodagh-hawe-s-family-a-massive-service-1.3806903?mode=amp

The chief executive of St Patrick’s Mental Health Services has said Clodagh Hawe’s family are doing the State a “massive service” by asking for an investigation into the murder of Hawe and her three sons.

MintyMagnum · 26-02-2019 3:54pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It took 18 months for the letter to be shown to them ! The letter that was written for their eyes . Now that is disgraceful in my opinion .
They are two dignified woman seeking information that might help ease their torment and no one seems to be listening . Shameful behavour

And apparently it spelt out his wishes not to have been buried with his victims which would have avoided her family's torment thinking of having him alongside his victims in the same plot for eternity & the burocreacy of getting him exhumed which must have been very stressful - that took seven months.

26-02-2019 3:58pm

Probably answered already, are the school witholding information?

If so, why?

lalababa · 26-02-2019 4:00pm

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I distinctly remember a newspaper report at the time, regatding a memorial mass in his home parish.
There were 5 priests officiating, and part of the homily quoted was giving "thanks to thde people of Cavan for taking him".
A very strange turn of phrase, as if thet were fulky aware of his character and didn't want him or his actions connected to his childhood area.

Where was his childhood area? Prehaps there was a paedophile
Ring there as somebody told me from close by that there was something going on there years ago, I think it was Callan but could be wrong.

Dontfadeaway · 26-02-2019 4:05pm

In his suicide letter it says he didn't want his wife knowing the truth. He was obviously ashamed about his family knowing. I guess the person who seen him watch the porn feels too guilty to come forward or was giving empty threats to him.

LETHAL LADY · 26-02-2019 4:07pm

lalababa wrote: »

Where was his childhood area? Prehaps there was a paedophile
Ring there as somebody told me from close by that there was something going on there years ago, I think it was Callan but could be wrong.

Windgap, Co. Kilkenny. Know the area well but never heard a paedophile ring story relating to it. Like all areas, there's good and bad people living there.

professore · 26-02-2019 4:16pm

Dontfadeaway wrote: »

In his suicide letter it says he didn't want his wife knowing the truth. He was obviously ashamed about his family knowing. I guess the person who seen him watch the porn feels too guilty to come forward or was giving empty threats to him.

Surely this can't all have been driven by him being caught having a ****? I find that hard to believe. If so then he was very mentally ill.

TheDriver · 26-02-2019 4:18pm

professore wrote: »

Surely this can't all have been driven by him being caught having a ****? I find that hard to believe. If so then he was very mentally ill.

In a perfect world, being caught doing anything remotely wrong would be a tremendous fall from grace

gaius c · 26-02-2019 4:18pm

Judging by what Kathleen Chada had to say, the family are unlikely to get any answers even if the information they seek is made public and she had the advantage that the murderer of her two boys is still alive.

Wibbs · 26-02-2019 4:21pm

professore wrote: »

Surely this can't all have been driven by him being caught having a ****? I find that hard to believe. If so then he was very mentally ill.

Maybe P, but IMHO too often the "mental illness" explanation is trotted out too damned often. It stigmatises the mentally ill that aren't evil pricks and it excuses such creatures. Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

road_high · 26-02-2019 4:22pm

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My OH would be driven to distraction listening to myself and my mother yammer away. He even leaves the room when we're on the phone to one another!

It also sounds like he locked Clodagh down marriage-wise very very fast. They'd only just finished college when they were married, we're talking in the mid-late 90s at most. It would have been pretty unusual unless they were particularly religious (I don't get the impression they were particularly).

He sounded like a right quare hawk as they say. A real pious little gob****e

jos28 · 26-02-2019 4:24pm

Harrowing interview to watch. I had no idea how Clodagh's family had been treated by the justice system. No-one could even attempt to understand the pain they must be going through.
Other posters have pointed out that Clodagh's brother died in 2010, Jacqueline's husband in 2013 and then the horrific deaths of Clodagh and her 3 sons. How could anyone face the day after that.
The main reason for these dignified women going on public television was to find the truth. Hawe's letters referred to 'the truth coming out'. It was that truth that caused him to brutally murder Clodagh and her sons. Her remaining family MUST be given those details. They have to be told the reason for their lives being destroyed. Pure and simple truth, they deserve that at least.

Cartroubles · 26-02-2019 4:32pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe P, but IMHO too often the "mental illness" explanation is trotted out too damned often. It stigmatises the mentally ill that aren't evil pricks and it excuses such creatures. Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

I agree for the most part but I think it's important to at least explore the possibility of mental health being a factor.

In terms of stigmatising the mentally ill, why would those with anxiety disorder or OCD feel stigmatised? Or do you mean specifically those with severe psychotic disorders?

Severe mental illness can be unfortunately linked with violence, it's a fact. Not saying that was the case here by any stretch, but definitely warrants being explored.

Calhoun · 26-02-2019 4:33pm

It's like Ireland needs it's regular kick up the hole to get it's legislation and practices updated.

Trump Is Right · 26-02-2019 4:36pm

professore wrote: »

What I find surprising is how people seem to think they know exactly the type of man he was and what motivated him. I don't think anyone has a clue - even people who knew him closely. Otherwise why didn't they raise the alarm?

It's easier for people to say "pure evil" .... only problem with that theory is that he killed himself. If he was pure evil he would have insured Clodagh and the kids for a ton of money and drove into the sea and "miraculously" escaped to live the life of Reilly. Or some such scheme that benefited him, like that guy who murdered his wife in Dublin several years ago. As it stands all he left is the legacy of being a monster. This isn't some attempt to defend him BTW, it's just an assessment of the facts. He doesn't come out of this a hero as a narcissist would want to.

One thing I've seen from watching some of the serial killer Netflix documentaries is seeing how "normal" people who do this kind of thing are. Several had people swearing up and down that they would never do something like that and that the police had the wrong man. Yet they did it anyway.

As for the records, it is a disgrace that the family haven't been given access.

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

professore · 26-02-2019 4:40pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

They sure do.

iamwhoiam · 26-02-2019 4:41pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

Yet prior to that evening and before he was hugging and being civil he had moved furniture to facilitate his pre planned killing spree . He didn't snap or have a rash judgement . He planned this horror to protect himself

road_high · 26-02-2019 4:43pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yet prior to that evening and before he was hugging and being civil he had moved furniture to facilitate his pre planned killing spree . He didn't snap or have a rash judgement . He planned this horror to protect himself

Apparently he’d moved the furniture months in advance, such was the premidated nature of his murder spree

aloneforever99 · 26-02-2019 4:44pm

It's easier to wrap your head around the idea that he was mentally ill than that a 'normal' person can do an evil thing when their world starts to fall apart.

Calhoun · 26-02-2019 4:44pm

I think the phrase is explanation does not excuse behavior , and while yes he more than likely had some mental issues it's not an excuse it just explains it.

Cartroubles · 26-02-2019 4:45pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yet prior to that evening and before he was hugging and being civil he had moved furniture to facilitate his pre planned killing spree . He didn't snap or have a rash judgement . He planned this horror to protect himself

That's very true.

I do however think that people suffering mental issues are often very good at disguising it. I've no idea if he was mentally ill or not, but no outward signs of suffering isn't really evidence of anything either way.

Also maybe it's a mix of both, a seriously narcissistic and bad character coupled with a severe mental illness.

expectationlost · 26-02-2019 4:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Very poignant stuff. The school, the councillor, the INTO and AGS seem to be united in denying those women closure. If it's true that your man had never been diagnosed with depression by his GP in all those decades, it also makes the conclusion of the inquest open to further questions.

what was the conclusion of the inquest?

Wombatman · 26-02-2019 4:47pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

What type of treatment was he receiving? Might an experienced professional spotted some red flags?

Could the school governors have played down the seriousness of his transgressions so as not to bring the school into disrepute?

Maybe it's questions like these the family want answered?

26-02-2019 4:48pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

Whatever was wrong with him, I assume that by 'pure evil' people are referring to him being a psychopath.

Psychopathy is a mental disorder too. There is no point in us trying to read the tea leaves here, but it is difficult to think about this horrific case and not come back to some dodgy neurochemical origins.

People tend to prefer to cling to notions such as the free-will concept of evil, for which there is about as much evidence as belief in God.

The fact is that all of our traits are ultimately biological or hormonal, and it's probably fair to say that Alan Hawe's life had probably been hurtling towards this horrific moment, inevitably, for a long time.

I think the reason people don't like that notion isn't because it stigmatises mental illness/disorder (it doesn't), but it means the concept of blame becomes diminished; it highlights the meaningless, fundamental chaos underlying human existence.

Large bottle small glass · 26-02-2019 4:49pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe P, but IMHO too often the "mental illness" explanation is trotted out too damned often. It stigmatises the mentally ill that aren't evil pricks and it excuses such creatures. Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

It's nice to think they are just evil, but to my mind its not difficult to explain his behavior with pretty run of the mill severe anxiety which he medicated by controlling the world around him and in particular his family.

An addiction to something harmful like gambling, drink, porn wouldn't be unusual on the severe anxiety end of the spectrum either.

This man's children were just starting to come of age; the eldest as his aunt said was after growing 2ft and had an interest in girls for first time. For a control freak,a teenager coming of age is a massive change he has no control over. It was only going to get worse.

People with anxiety normally avoid change and things they can't control. he couldn't
*avoid his sons becoming men and eventually saying "fcuk you"
*control whatever was going to happen at school
*control what happened with GAA club when school blew up

The man married the girl straight out of college. Big red flag for a control freak, tie her up before she sees a bit of the world and realises I ain't all that much. A man with ****e self esteem who's props to keep him going in the world were about to come crumbling down.

My wife's BIL, has over the years shown a few similar red flags. We had to intervene as a family about 3 months after Hawe murders. If you know the signs people like this are not that hard to spot. Straight up anxiety being "medicated" by controlling their world and the wheels come off when the world intervenes with something they can't control.

I buried my own son less than 2 years ago. Since then I been in rooms full of grieving parents, many grieving 10/15/20 years. The depth of the sorrow and pain in those rooms is beyond my words. You see a 50 min program and it upsets you, those two lovely women will get hit by the grief truck most days for the rest of their lives. Some days it will be a short sting the next may leave them floored for days.

That that lovely family have to go to RTE and publicise their grief is heartbreaking and scandalous in equal measure.

Dontfadeaway · 26-02-2019 4:53pm

Trump Is Right wrote: »

professore wrote: »

What I find surprising is how people seem to think they know exactly the type of man he was and what motivated him. I don't think anyone has a clue - even people who knew him closely. Otherwise why didn't they raise the alarm?

It's easier for people to say "pure evil" .... only problem with that theory is that he killed himself. If he was pure evil he would have insured Clodagh and the kids for a ton of money and drove into the sea and "miraculously" escaped to live the life of Reilly. Or some such scheme that benefited him, like that guy who murdered his wife in Dublin several years ago. As it stands all he left is the legacy of being a monster. This isn't some attempt to defend him BTW, it's just an assessment of the facts. He doesn't come out of this a hero as a narcissist would want to.

One thing I've seen from watching some of the serial killer Netflix documentaries is seeing how "normal" people who do this kind of thing are. Several had people swearing up and down that they would never do something like that and that the police had the wrong man. Yet they did it anyway.

As for the records, it is a disgrace that the family haven't been given access.

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

Apparently his letter said he had been planning it for a while. It wasn't like a switch went off in his head that night.

freshpopcorn · 26-02-2019 4:55pm

EDit wrote: »

If he was caught **** at school by one of his colleagues, why hasn’t that person come forward and revealed all? Surely there cannot be any legal ramifications for someone who actually witnessed an event describing that event? If it were me, I don’t think I could supress that information while her family is suffering so much

It's one of these things that is very hard to know.
A colleague may have seen something and didn't report it at the time or put off reporting it.
However they may feel they'd get in trouble now.

professore · 26-02-2019 4:58pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Whatever was wrong with him, I assume that by 'pure evil' people are referring to him being a psychopath.

Psychopathy is a mental disorder too. There is no point in us trying to read the tea leaves here, but it is difficult to think about this horrific case and not come back to some dodgy neurochemical origins.

I've never heard of a psychopath kill themselves. There's nothing in it for them.

freshpopcorn · 26-02-2019 4:58pm

tretorn wrote: »

I
If porn was accessible on the school computers too then why werent they properly secured. Does this mean that other teachers are accessing pornography while sitting in front of young children too and they wont be caught unless someone walks in on them. Isnt this a major security issue.

School computers are generally secured but some people figure they way around the security settings.

freshpopcorn · 26-02-2019 5:01pm

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My OH would be driven to distraction listening to myself and my mother yammer away. He even leaves the room when we're on the phone to one another!

It also sounds like he locked Clodagh down marriage-wise very very fast. They'd only just finished college when they were married, we're talking in the mid-late 90s at most. It would have been pretty unusual unless they were particularly religious (I don't get the impression they were particularly).

I did get the impression from reading an article that they may have being a little more religious than some.
Another thing to bear in mind it's often a priest that does the interviewing and is on the BOM in schools and it looks good to be married.( I still even hear of people getting engaged/married when they are going for a job locally)

Marengo · 26-02-2019 5:06pm

Reading some of the posts here we may aswell say poor Adolf Hitler, poor Josef Stalin, because they had abusive fathers it left them predisposed to mental illness on the severe end of the spectrum. They weren't evil but we like old fashioned notions, cosy notions like evil, which are about as relevant as the concept of God.

Doesn't the above sound like modern psychobabble BS? Fcuk it he was a bad bastard.

iamwhoiam · 26-02-2019 5:09pm

Marengo wrote: »

Reading some of the posts here we may aswell say poor Adolf Hitler, poor Josef Stalin, because they had abusive fathers it left them predisposed to mental illness on the severe end of the spectrum. They weren't evil but we like old fashioned notions, cosy notions like evil, which are about as relevant as the concept of God.

Doesn't the above sound like modern psychobabble BS? Fcuk it he was a bad bastard.

Not one single post actually said poor Alan Hawe

strandroad · 26-02-2019 5:12pm

professore wrote: »

I've never heard of a psychopath kill themselves. There's nothing in it for them.

An extreme narcissist would; they can't bear to lose their reputation and social standing like Hawe was about to. And they consider other lives to be inferior to theirs so they would take them too if the had them in their control. Their ego is superior to everything else in the world.

professore · 26-02-2019 5:14pm

Marengo wrote: »

Reading some of the posts here we may aswell say poor Adolf Hitler, poor Josef Stalin, because they had abusive fathers it left them predisposed to mental illness on the severe end of the spectrum. They weren't evil but we like old fashioned notions, cosy notions like evil, which are about as relevant as the concept of God.

Doesn't the above sound like modern psychobabble BS? Fcuk it he was a bad bastard.

No one is saying that. What I'm trying to understand, as many others are, is that how we stop stuff like this happening in future, or at least recognise the signs. Saying he was an evil bastard is all well and good but it doesn't help you, when realistically loads of people thought he was a "lovely fellow".

People are fantastic in hindsight when stuff like this happens "I always knew there was something off" BS. What we need is foresight.

Adolf Hitler only killed himself when he was in imminent danger of being captured and tortured by the Russians. Stalin never killed himself, as did no psycho leader ever in the history of the world.

Marengo · 26-02-2019 5:14pm

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Not one single post actually said poor Alan Hawe

No but the tone which dismisses the concept of evil as somehow old fashioned in this day of science when we can label something with a nice 'mental' illness tag. I wasn't quoting literally.

freshpopcorn · 26-02-2019 5:18pm

Regarding what happened in the school.
None of us what happened.
The incident may have being minor or it may have being something that got blown out proportion.
The person may have reported the incident or not.
It could have happened in June or during July and August. He was a bice principal and a lot of them have business in the school during the Summer.

Marengo · 26-02-2019 5:18pm

professore wrote: »

No one is saying that. What I'm trying to understand, as many others are, is that how we stop stuff like this happening in future, or at least recognise the signs. Saying he was an evil bastard is all well and good but it doesn't help you, when realistically loads of people thought he was a "lovely fellow".

People are fantastic in hindsight when stuff like this happens "I always knew there was something off" BS. What we need is foresight.

Evil can be well hidden i'm saying. It shouldn't be lumped in with mental illnesses because people associated good and evil with deity etc and therefore it's a no, no to say evil bastard.

Some want some pie in the sky psychological explanation rather than the simple ones of good and evil.

strandroad · 26-02-2019 5:20pm

professore wrote: »

No one is saying that. What I'm trying to understand, as many others are, is that how we stop stuff like this happening in future, or at least recognise the signs. Saying he was an evil bastard is all well and good but it doesn't help you, when realistically loads of people thought he was a "lovely fellow".

People are fantastic in hindsight when stuff like this happens "I always knew there was something off" BS. What we need is foresight.

There is a lot of ground between "unexplained evil" and "mental illlness", for example personality disorders. Narcissism or sociopathy are not in the mental health domain but they are sufficient to explain Hawe's actions in the light of his impending downfall.

professore · 26-02-2019 5:25pm

Marengo wrote: »

Evil can be well hidden i'm saying. It shouldn't be lumped in with mental illnesses because people associated good and evil with deity etc and therefore it's a no, no to say evil bastard.

Some want some pie in the sky psychological explanation rather than the simple ones of good and evil.

I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

Marengo · 26-02-2019 5:28pm

professore wrote: »

I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

Why doesn't it? Evil consumes others and consumes itself when it sees no way out. Hitler for example killed himself. Killing himself was the easiest option for this fella rather than face the music.. Whatever it was, sacked from his job, no longer a pillar in the community etc.

MintyMagnum · 26-02-2019 5:30pm

professore wrote: »

I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

He killed his family because they would find out the truth about him whatever that is. And obviously he had to kill himself after that. This way he would not face consequences of his actions. That's how he 'benefitted'. He also has benefitted it seems in that no one else in the wider circle has discovered his 'secret'.

ceadaoin. · 26-02-2019 5:31pm

professore wrote: »

I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

Because he was a also a coward and didn't want to face up to the consequences of his own actions.

Rubberchikken · 26-02-2019 5:57pm

l think narcissism goes hand in hand with cowardice.
the ability or want of this man to control every aspect of his execution of his family down to who'd get the jewellery, note on front door etc is frightening.
how a person like this remains in employment has a family and effectively deceives all around him shows how clever and manipulative people like this are.

i dont know if evil is the correct description.
his behaviour in moving furniture, killing his wife, sitting down to write his pathetic self absorbed excuses and then killing his children seems very coldly thought out but only thinking of himself the whole time.

Hoboo · 26-02-2019 6:05pm

shenanagans wrote: »

If he was mentally ill those 4 people had no chance. But I seriously believe they would be alive today if that animal hadn't been caught doing whatever he was doing in school.

Shame, embarrassment, control, weakness were what caused their deaths not mental health (depression).

Shame, embarrassment, control, weakness are all symptoms of various mental health issues. For anyone to do what he did for any of those examples requires some level of mental instability (not just depression, they aren't one and the same)

I didn't meet the man, speak to his GP, counsellor, school, gardai, so what happened or why is completely a guess for anyone.

The post I was agreeing with was that it wasn't 'evil' or 'the monster' that caused this. It was an unstable mind of some sort. 'Evil' is just a simple way to explain things like this when one can't comprehend why (due to lack of understanding), instead of examining the real reason, and what we could do to prevent it in the future. Head in the sand stuff.

iamwhoiam · 26-02-2019 6:05pm

professore wrote: »

I agree there is evil - of course there is. However calling this guy evil may not be accurate. The fact he killed himself doesn't fit the "evil" description. Evil people do evil to benefit themselves, or for pure enjoyment. I can't for the life of me see how either of those things fit with killing yourself. That's all I am saying.

Many evil Nazis killed themselves . Because not only were they sadistic evil people they were also cowards

tretorn · 26-02-2019 6:07pm

He was a teacher though so basically on his own for most of the day with children.

There are plenty of really strange teachers who wouldnt be able to function in a normal working environment, they are left in the teaching profession until retirement and given a new class every year so their failure to be able to do their job doesnt cause too much of an impact. Its absolutely impossible to get rid of poorly performing teachers too though this does appear to be changing very slowly.

Teachers are also drawn to the job because of love and devotion to the GAA, lots of time off to devote to the GAA and being a member of this organisation gives you kudos in small towns and the edge when it comes to promotion, ie how many male teachers are there and how many male principals, very few male teachers but lots of male principals.

retro:electro · 26-02-2019 6:13pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

l think narcissism goes hand in hand with cowardice.
the ability or want of this man to control every aspect of his execution of his family down to who'd get the jewellery, note on front door etc is frightening.
how a person like this remains in employment has a family and effectively deceives all around him shows how clever and manipulative people like this are.

i dont know if evil is the correct description.
his behaviour in moving furniture, killing his wife, sitting down to write his pathetic self absorbed excuses and then killing his children seems very coldly thought out but only thinking of himself the whole time.

And a narcissist would rather you remain hurt and punished for the remainder of your life than face up to the consequences of their own actions. If I had to fathom a guess I’d wager due to his catastrophising and calculated control of things from months prior, that it’s likely he had slipped into some level of psychosis, leading him to cancel his counselling sessions and just meticulously plan the end.

There didn’t seem to be any obvious warning signs beyond him being his usual oppressive self, nothing out of the ordinary was reported but I do believe his hugs with the mam, stating aloud how he was dreading work, and his five page ode to himself was all about controlling the narrative in the aftermath. He was after a sympathetic portrayal and that’s what he got for a while afterwards anyway, thankfully now we all know the truth.

Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

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