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Child Item

Claire Byrne show. Her name was Clodagh

autumnbelle

Just watching the programme her sister and mother are so dignified. How have the school not given them answers? Tragic

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[Deleted User]

retro:electro wrote: »

Did you even watch the show? They stated many times how he was inappropriate, controlling and had an oppressive presence. She didn’t have a life outside of him. She couldn’t even meet her sister to try on dresses without him there. He didn’t have to be knocking ten bells out of her every evening to be abusive, maybe look up coercive control and it’s psychological manifestation. Oh, and did you miss the part where he savagely murdered her and her children with both a knife and an axe? Sounds pretty abusive to me.

Often its only seen as abuse if it is physical if they are generally kind and personable only wanting the best for their family, only doing it because they love their family, only doing it to protect the family being talked about, then it does not appear to be abuse but it is.

A lot of their life is about self-consciousness and shame and the distorted thinking leads them to believe if they can control everything they can save themselves in some way.

Nekarsulm

I distinctly remember a newspaper report at the time, regatding a memorial mass in his home parish.
There were 5 priests officiating, and part of the homily quoted was giving "thanks to the people of Cavan for taking him".
A very strange turn of phrase, as if they were fully aware of his character and didn't want him or his actions connected to his childhood area.

Lackey

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

I was thinking about this tragedy last week, before the show was announced. Incredible to think that the family still haven't received the full information on the murderer. Those poor people.

When Clodagh's sister said they found out details of the murders from the papers, and she had to ring the family liason officer and ask 'did he kill my sister with an axe?'
I had to pause the tv and compose myself.

Her family are private people, who exude class and grace at all times.
Forced back into the media spotlight to get answers to their questions, its a disgrace.
Give them access to whatever they want.

iamwhoiam

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/call-for-an-investigation-by-clodagh-hawe-s-family-a-massive-service-1.3806903?mode=amp

The chief executive of St Patrick’s Mental Health Services has said Clodagh Hawe’s family are doing the State a “massive service” by asking for an investigation into the murder of Hawe and her three sons.

MintyMagnum

iamwhoiam wrote: »

It took 18 months for the letter to be shown to them ! The letter that was written for their eyes . Now that is disgraceful in my opinion .
They are two dignified woman seeking information that might help ease their torment and no one seems to be listening . Shameful behavour

And apparently it spelt out his wishes not to have been buried with his victims which would have avoided her family's torment thinking of having him alongside his victims in the same plot for eternity & the burocreacy of getting him exhumed which must have been very stressful - that took seven months.

[Deleted User]

Probably answered already, are the school witholding information?

If so, why?

lalababa

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I distinctly remember a newspaper report at the time, regatding a memorial mass in his home parish.
There were 5 priests officiating, and part of the homily quoted was giving "thanks to thde people of Cavan for taking him".
A very strange turn of phrase, as if thet were fulky aware of his character and didn't want him or his actions connected to his childhood area.

Where was his childhood area? Prehaps there was a paedophile
Ring there as somebody told me from close by that there was something going on there years ago, I think it was Callan but could be wrong.

Dontfadeaway

In his suicide letter it says he didn't want his wife knowing the truth. He was obviously ashamed about his family knowing. I guess the person who seen him watch the porn feels too guilty to come forward or was giving empty threats to him.

LETHAL LADY

lalababa wrote: »

Where was his childhood area? Prehaps there was a paedophile
Ring there as somebody told me from close by that there was something going on there years ago, I think it was Callan but could be wrong.

Windgap, Co. Kilkenny. Know the area well but never heard a paedophile ring story relating to it. Like all areas, there's good and bad people living there.

professore

Dontfadeaway wrote: »

In his suicide letter it says he didn't want his wife knowing the truth. He was obviously ashamed about his family knowing. I guess the person who seen him watch the porn feels too guilty to come forward or was giving empty threats to him.

Surely this can't all have been driven by him being caught having a ****? I find that hard to believe. If so then he was very mentally ill.

TheDriver

professore wrote: »

Surely this can't all have been driven by him being caught having a ****? I find that hard to believe. If so then he was very mentally ill.

In a perfect world, being caught doing anything remotely wrong would be a tremendous fall from grace

gaius c

Judging by what Kathleen Chada had to say, the family are unlikely to get any answers even if the information they seek is made public and she had the advantage that the murderer of her two boys is still alive.

Wibbs

professore wrote: »

Surely this can't all have been driven by him being caught having a ****? I find that hard to believe. If so then he was very mentally ill.

Maybe P, but IMHO too often the "mental illness" explanation is trotted out too damned often. It stigmatises the mentally ill that aren't evil pricks and it excuses such creatures. Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

road_high

Lollipops23 wrote: »

My OH would be driven to distraction listening to myself and my mother yammer away. He even leaves the room when we're on the phone to one another!

It also sounds like he locked Clodagh down marriage-wise very very fast. They'd only just finished college when they were married, we're talking in the mid-late 90s at most. It would have been pretty unusual unless they were particularly religious (I don't get the impression they were particularly).

He sounded like a right quare hawk as they say. A real pious little gob****e

jos28

Harrowing interview to watch. I had no idea how Clodagh's family had been treated by the justice system. No-one could even attempt to understand the pain they must be going through.
Other posters have pointed out that Clodagh's brother died in 2010, Jacqueline's husband in 2013 and then the horrific deaths of Clodagh and her 3 sons. How could anyone face the day after that.
The main reason for these dignified women going on public television was to find the truth. Hawe's letters referred to 'the truth coming out'. It was that truth that caused him to brutally murder Clodagh and her sons. Her remaining family MUST be given those details. They have to be told the reason for their lives being destroyed. Pure and simple truth, they deserve that at least.

Cartroubles

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe P, but IMHO too often the "mental illness" explanation is trotted out too damned often. It stigmatises the mentally ill that aren't evil pricks and it excuses such creatures. Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

I agree for the most part but I think it's important to at least explore the possibility of mental health being a factor.

In terms of stigmatising the mentally ill, why would those with anxiety disorder or OCD feel stigmatised? Or do you mean specifically those with severe psychotic disorders?

Severe mental illness can be unfortunately linked with violence, it's a fact. Not saying that was the case here by any stretch, but definitely warrants being explored.

Calhoun

It's like Ireland needs it's regular kick up the hole to get it's legislation and practices updated.

Trump Is Right

professore wrote: »

What I find surprising is how people seem to think they know exactly the type of man he was and what motivated him. I don't think anyone has a clue - even people who knew him closely. Otherwise why didn't they raise the alarm?

It's easier for people to say "pure evil" .... only problem with that theory is that he killed himself. If he was pure evil he would have insured Clodagh and the kids for a ton of money and drove into the sea and "miraculously" escaped to live the life of Reilly. Or some such scheme that benefited him, like that guy who murdered his wife in Dublin several years ago. As it stands all he left is the legacy of being a monster. This isn't some attempt to defend him BTW, it's just an assessment of the facts. He doesn't come out of this a hero as a narcissist would want to.

One thing I've seen from watching some of the serial killer Netflix documentaries is seeing how "normal" people who do this kind of thing are. Several had people swearing up and down that they would never do something like that and that the police had the wrong man. Yet they did it anyway.

As for the records, it is a disgrace that the family haven't been given access.

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

professore

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

They sure do.

iamwhoiam

Trump Is Right wrote: »

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

Yet prior to that evening and before he was hugging and being civil he had moved furniture to facilitate his pre planned killing spree . He didn't snap or have a rash judgement . He planned this horror to protect himself

road_high

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yet prior to that evening and before he was hugging and being civil he had moved furniture to facilitate his pre planned killing spree . He didn't snap or have a rash judgement . He planned this horror to protect himself

Apparently he’d moved the furniture months in advance, such was the premidated nature of his murder spree

aloneforever99

It's easier to wrap your head around the idea that he was mentally ill than that a 'normal' person can do an evil thing when their world starts to fall apart.

Calhoun

I think the phrase is explanation does not excuse behavior , and while yes he more than likely had some mental issues it's not an excuse it just explains it.

Cartroubles

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Yet prior to that evening and before he was hugging and being civil he had moved furniture to facilitate his pre planned killing spree . He didn't snap or have a rash judgement . He planned this horror to protect himself

That's very true.

I do however think that people suffering mental issues are often very good at disguising it. I've no idea if he was mentally ill or not, but no outward signs of suffering isn't really evidence of anything either way.

Also maybe it's a mix of both, a seriously narcissistic and bad character coupled with a severe mental illness.

expectationlost

Deleted User wrote: »

Very poignant stuff. The school, the councillor, the INTO and AGS seem to be united in denying those women closure. If it's true that your man had never been diagnosed with depression by his GP in all those decades, it also makes the conclusion of the inquest open to further questions.

what was the conclusion of the inquest?

Wombatman

Trump Is Right wrote: »

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

What type of treatment was he receiving? Might an experienced professional spotted some red flags?

Could the school governors have played down the seriousness of his transgressions so as not to bring the school into disrepute?

Maybe it's questions like these the family want answered?

[Deleted User]

Trump Is Right wrote: »

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

Whatever was wrong with him, I assume that by 'pure evil' people are referring to him being a psychopath.

Psychopathy is a mental disorder too. There is no point in us trying to read the tea leaves here, but it is difficult to think about this horrific case and not come back to some dodgy neurochemical origins.

People tend to prefer to cling to notions such as the free-will concept of evil, for which there is about as much evidence as belief in God.

The fact is that all of our traits are ultimately biological or hormonal, and it's probably fair to say that Alan Hawe's life had probably been hurtling towards this horrific moment, inevitably, for a long time.

I think the reason people don't like that notion isn't because it stigmatises mental illness/disorder (it doesn't), but it means the concept of blame becomes diminished; it highlights the meaningless, fundamental chaos underlying human existence.

Large bottle small glass

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe P, but IMHO too often the "mental illness" explanation is trotted out too damned often. It stigmatises the mentally ill that aren't evil pricks and it excuses such creatures. Maybe he was just an evil rotten hearted cunt. Thankfully they're rare, but they exist.

It's nice to think they are just evil, but to my mind its not difficult to explain his behavior with pretty run of the mill severe anxiety which he medicated by controlling the world around him and in particular his family.

An addiction to something harmful like gambling, drink, porn wouldn't be unusual on the severe anxiety end of the spectrum either.

This man's children were just starting to come of age; the eldest as his aunt said was after growing 2ft and had an interest in girls for first time. For a control freak,a teenager coming of age is a massive change he has no control over. It was only going to get worse.

People with anxiety normally avoid change and things they can't control. he couldn't
*avoid his sons becoming men and eventually saying "fcuk you"
*control whatever was going to happen at school
*control what happened with GAA club when school blew up

The man married the girl straight out of college. Big red flag for a control freak, tie her up before she sees a bit of the world and realises I ain't all that much. A man with ****e self esteem who's props to keep him going in the world were about to come crumbling down.

My wife's BIL, has over the years shown a few similar red flags. We had to intervene as a family about 3 months after Hawe murders. If you know the signs people like this are not that hard to spot. Straight up anxiety being "medicated" by controlling their world and the wheels come off when the world intervenes with something they can't control.

I buried my own son less than 2 years ago. Since then I been in rooms full of grieving parents, many grieving 10/15/20 years. The depth of the sorrow and pain in those rooms is beyond my words. You see a 50 min program and it upsets you, those two lovely women will get hit by the grief truck most days for the rest of their lives. Some days it will be a short sting the next may leave them floored for days.

That that lovely family have to go to RTE and publicise their grief is heartbreaking and scandalous in equal measure.

Dontfadeaway

Trump Is Right wrote: »

professore wrote: »

What I find surprising is how people seem to think they know exactly the type of man he was and what motivated him. I don't think anyone has a clue - even people who knew him closely. Otherwise why didn't they raise the alarm?

It's easier for people to say "pure evil" .... only problem with that theory is that he killed himself. If he was pure evil he would have insured Clodagh and the kids for a ton of money and drove into the sea and "miraculously" escaped to live the life of Reilly. Or some such scheme that benefited him, like that guy who murdered his wife in Dublin several years ago. As it stands all he left is the legacy of being a monster. This isn't some attempt to defend him BTW, it's just an assessment of the facts. He doesn't come out of this a hero as a narcissist would want to.

One thing I've seen from watching some of the serial killer Netflix documentaries is seeing how "normal" people who do this kind of thing are. Several had people swearing up and down that they would never do something like that and that the police had the wrong man. Yet they did it anyway.

As for the records, it is a disgrace that the family haven't been given access.

The reason many people want to believe that Alan Hawe was a very obvious "bad guy" all along, is because it makes them feel better about the nature of the crimes. Many people are very uneasy about the monster that is hidden underneath their nose!

But the mother and sister clearly stated that Alan Hawe was not violent towards his family, and that Clodagh and the boys were not living in fear of him. They never once seen him raise his hand to them! Yes he may have been controlling... but this is not exactly unusual behaviour for many husbands or wives too. (most of whom are not violent either)

And we actually have evidence that Alan was receiving treatment for mental illness. Yes it was for porn addiction, but this is not necessarily unrelated to his other potential mental problems. Ted Bundy also had a porn addiction, and he actually said his porn addiction played a significant role in his urge to kill...

It's very likely that Alan Hawe was suffering from some kind of psychotic problem, or some other serious mental issue. His behaviour on that night was out of character with his general behaviour even just hours prior... where he was hugging Clodagh's mother and being very civil.

I am definitely more inclined to think that this was a very mentally sick and desperate man, rather than the simplistic characterisation of "pure evil"... which is neither helpful or particularly intelligent analysis...

Apparently his letter said he had been planning it for a while. It wasn't like a switch went off in his head that night.

freshpopcorn

EDit wrote: »

If he was caught **** at school by one of his colleagues, why hasn’t that person come forward and revealed all? Surely there cannot be any legal ramifications for someone who actually witnessed an event describing that event? If it were me, I don’t think I could supress that information while her family is suffering so much

It's one of these things that is very hard to know.
A colleague may have seen something and didn't report it at the time or put off reporting it.
However they may feel they'd get in trouble now.