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The "journalist"
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21-09-2020 10:23am#1This thread should probably be a sticky. As he has so many badly written and tabloid style articles showing very little respect to players. The lack of balance in the journalists's pieces (not to mention his lack of technical knowledge of the game) need to be called out. Last week he was saying Sarries were cheats and nothing they have achieved should be even counted. Today, he says, Sarries have proved the pro 14 isn't worth it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/the-offload-saracens-prove-pro14-is-not-fit-for-purpose-1.4359761. What does he want the AIL?
Here's the deal Mr. Journo, if you would like to check your facts countless, Irish players over the last ten years have left Irish provinces and got more game time in the Premiership than they did in the Pro 14.
Leinster lost an 8 point game, despite missing Furlong and having some questionable decisions in the match. Several times, Leinster have blown away the leaders of the Premiership.
This is what happens in Sport Mr. Journo. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. If teams from the Pro 14 never made the Champions Cup quarters you might have a point. Oh but no... overlook the fact that there is usually 2 - 3 and either the same amount or one or two more than the Premiership or the French League.
At least when Eamon Dunphy gave out about Jack Charlton he actually had a few points. What are Mr. Journo's? What is best analysis of any game? When does he ever show himself to know more than the average fan?
Rant over...0
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I am sort of in disbelief the level of stupidity and knee jerk reacting that we have in journalism these days. One result doesn’t determine anything and if that’s the case why wasn’t he mentioning any of that in the lead up to the match? The vast majority of times a pro14 side comes up against a premiership side the premiership side leaves with their tails between their legs yet one results gives you the conclusion Gavin has come up with.
Leinster lost to the better side on the day...that’s all, it doesn’t mean the earth has frozen over and the world has come to an end it means that Leinster lost...ONE match this season...ONE and that’s all. Any journalist that comes up with this guff should be immediately discounted in future.0 -
Don't give him the clicks!!0
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I get your frustration Tim. But i would vote for even deleting this Thread! Or rename it omitting his name.
Dont give him the publicity/clicks.
I am going to be cancelling my subscription primarily because the rugby coverage in the times has gotten so poor. Murray Kinsella at The 42 provides pretty much all you need to know.
Dorce articles are a joke. GT is GT!
Johnny Watterson is the best rugby journalist in the paper but cant get enough column inches because of the other two.0 -
I promise I'm not Gavin Cummisky.
But to be honest, there is merit in what he says. Some folk are in denial about the Pro14.0 -
I promise I'm not Gavin Cummisky.
But to be honest, there is merit in what he says. Some folk are in denial about the Pro14.
3 of the last 4 years have had more pro14 sides than other teams. If you want to have it this way you can but then when you have 2 or even 3 teams in semi finals the previous 3 years you have to have the same argument.0 -
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UAEguy2020 wrote: »3 of the last 4 years have had more pro14 sides than other teams. If you want to have it this way you can but then when you have 2 or even 3 teams in semi finals the previous 3 years you have to have the same argument.
No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.0 -
No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.
But surely on the flip side that should mean the AP sides should be much more battle hardened? I get it being a factor maybe in March or April but in the pool stage that really shouldn’t be much of an excuse if their league is as competitive as it’s made out and if anything that should be a benefit? That was the narrative when in 2016 5 teams got through but ofcourse that competently changed the next season when the narrative backfired on them. Exeter themselves are on record for saying they want to do something in Europe and are the only side in the GP who have any notion of doing something in Europe bar Sarries yet 3 years on the trot they couldn’t even get out of their pool.
I think this idea of the CC being a rest period is complete and utter tosh and used as a convenient excuse for why they aren’t as good as they are made out to be when they are put up against a team from another country and have to prove how good they really are on the playing field.0 -
If you think someone is on a wind-up, why are you broadcasting their article?!
The Pro14 isn't great and the biggest reason is the financial disparity amongst teams as well as geographical factors. The Welsh regions and Scottish franchises are unable to hold onto their stars who in some cases can move to English sides without even moving home. As examples, Newport is a 40 minute drive to Bristol. Cardiff is a 1h15 drive to Bath. It's difficult for those sides to retain stars and remain competitive over the long term, though the numbers going abroad from Wales has decreased thanks to Gatland's Law.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »But surely on the flip side that should mean the AP sides should be much more battle hardened? I get it being a factor maybe in March or April but in the pool stage that really shouldn’t be much of an excuse if their league is as competitive as it’s made out and if anything that should be a benefit? That was the narrative when in 2016 5 teams got through but ofcourse that competently changed the next season when the narrative backfired on them. Exeter themselves are on record for saying they want to do something in Europe and are the only side in the GP who have any notion of doing something in Europe bar Sarries yet 3 years on the trot they couldn’t even get out of their pool.
I think this idea of the CC being a rest period is complete and utter tosh and used as a convenient excuse for why they aren’t as good as they are made out to be when they are put up against a team from another country and have to prove how good they really are on the playing field.
I didn't say the CC was a rest period.
I said the English and French have long complained that the Pro14 teams have an much easier time in their league fixtures, where the league weekends are basically treated as a chance to give their European players a rest.
It is not an unreasonable point to make, the Pro14 is well known for it, we complain about it often enough ourselves. It's not even that long ago that the Pro12 had to be dragged kicking and screaming to introduce qualification on merit for the CC!
Hopefully with the introduction of CVC we'll see the needle start to move back in the right direction. There'll be no extreme changes but hopefully enough chances to address some of the problems.0 -
I didn't say the CC was a rest period.
I said the English and French have long complained that the Pro14 teams have an much easier time in their league fixtures, where the league weekends are basically treated as a chance to give their European players a rest.
It is not an unreasonable point to make, the Pro14 is well known for it, we complain about it often enough ourselves. It's not even that long ago that the Pro12 had to be dragged kicking and screaming to introduce qualification on merit for the CC!
Hopefully with the introduction of CVC we'll see the needle start to move back in the right direction. There'll be no extreme changes but hopefully enough chances to address some of the problems.
I misunderstood, apologies.
Maybe that’s the case in some ways but from my watching of the matches in Europe I don’t get the impression the pro14 having a better fixture list is the reason they do better in Europe and if anything it looks like the premiership sides are just as prepared as the Pro14 sides are. If the GO sides were huffing and puffing in the last 20 in matches then you might a point in this regard but from my observations this is hardly the case and it’s just of a case of the GP sides not being good enough on the day. The reason pro14 sides can do this is they don’t age the finances of the GP and T14 sides so can’t just go out and sign a top class replacement so they must turn to their academy and have been doing so for years meaning now it’s more of a tradition and easier for them to do, in England for instance all they know of is a cheque book to sort out their problems so are less confident in turning to youth when things go wrong. We have seen this season with Exeter when the academy is there and the squad depth is there they were no different to a Leinster or a Munster when it comes to rotating their squad, because they are able to do so whereas the other GP sides aren’t.
The reality is there isn’t that much between the standards of the league, each league is just different in how they opperate so are nearly impossible to directly compare. France is a free for all when it comes to money, the P14 is the complete opposite and the GP is right in between so the 3 will always opperate in different ways, it’s just how it is and some seasons you will get 0 in the last 4 and some you will get 3 and it doesn’t mean one is automatically better than the other and on another season it could be a totally different outcome.
Hopefully some changes can be made in thy regard to make it easier for the bottom half sides to compete but tbh I just want to get it right in between what we currently have and the GP, I don’t want it to become a money league as that’s what I love about the P14 is being able to look forward to the next star come through and not have to worry about some pensioner delaying his pathway (good young players will always come through but without someone blocking the route it might help make the transition quicker and smoother) and this for example is why I’m not happy with the situations at Munster where they bring in medical jokers instead of a young player. Not just Ireland but I love seeing the young guys come through in Scotland, Wales and even Italy in recent years, it’s the spike of the league and I hope we get the balance between money and development exactly right.0 -
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No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.
The Premiership teams rotate players as well. Sarries did that in last match before Leinster. The journalist (won't say his name) says, not playing Sexton in the final and instead Ross Byrne says it all. I would have said... Sexton is the more physical player and better suited to Sarries for 60 mins with Byrne for last 20. Byrne has better fitness and more suited to Ulster with Sexton for last 20. Byrne probably also quicker.
Also, you don't know what has been happening in training. Maybe Sexton has a few niggles. Or Byrne did. You never know.0 -
Done.ionadnapokot wrote: »I get your frustration Tim. But i would vote for even deleting this Thread! Or rename it omitting his name.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »The Premiership teams rotate players as well. Sarries did that in last match before Leinster. The journalist (won't say his name) says, not playing Sexton in the final and instead Ross Byrne says it all. I would have said... Sexton is the more physical player and better suited to Sarries for 60 mins with Byrne for last 20. Byrne has better fitness and more suited to Ulster with Sexton for last 20. Byrne probably also quicker.
Also, you don't know what has been happening in training. Maybe Sexton has a few niggles. Or Byrne did. You never know.
What it also says is Sexton is 35 and needs his games managed and it helps when your 2nd choice 10 would possibly start for any other team in the league.
Funny that this “journalist” didn’t mention of this pre match...0 -
No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.
People who make this argument don't care for either player safety or development. They would rather see the same 23 get smashed around 30-40 times a season than players being looked after, having adequate recovery time and youth getting a chance to prove their worth. They're only interested in immediate gratification and using players as a commodity for their entertainment.0 -
pickarooney wrote: »People who make this argument don't care for either player safety or development. They would rather see the same 23 get smashed around 30-40 times a season than players being looked after, having adequate recovery time and youth getting a chance to prove their worth. They're only interested in immediate gratification and using players as a commodity for their entertainment.
This is complete nonsense, in fairness.
Absolutely nobody anywhere is calling for the same 23 every week. Nobody.0 -
pickarooney wrote: »People who make this argument don't care for either player safety or development. They would rather see the same 23 get smashed around 30-40 times a season than players being looked after, having adequate recovery time and youth getting a chance to prove their worth. They're only interested in immediate gratification and using players as a commodity for their entertainment.
Nobody wants 30-40 games at all.
I think eventually we'll have a B&I league with conferences/tiers.0 -
The Pro 14 has fallen off a cliff in terms of quality over the past few seasons, in particular thanks to the decline of Glasgow, Scarlets and complete collapse of Ospreys.
This article however is only written to try and excuse Leinster's failings by shifting the blame elsewhere so I agree with the sentiment expressed, I'm not sure who if anyone takes this guy seriously or why the IT continue to give him a platform.0 -
The Pro 14 has fallen off a cliff in terms of quality over the past few seasons, in particular thanks to the decline of Glasgow, Scarlets and complete collapse of Ospreys.
This article however is only written to try and excuse Leinster's failings by shifting the blame elsewhere so I agree with the sentiment expressed, I'm not sure who if anyone takes this guy seriously or why the IT continue to give him a platform.
It’s not as good because 2 of the other big teams have taken steps backwards but to say it’s fallen off a clif is probably abit of an exaduration, still managed to get 5 QF’s last season for example. The big issue is without money it will be hard for the non Irish pro14 sides to compete consistently as they don’t have the tradition of being forces in Europe. Scarlets basically went the same way as Glasgow where it’s one or two good teams and then anonymous for afew seasons. Ospreys are the only non Irish team that I would say have some sort of tradition (when I started watching rugby in 2010 they were the only pro14 side I feared outside of the Irish sides) but their problems go so deep that I think it’s almost irrelevant.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »It’s not as good because 2 of the other big teams have taken steps backwards but to say it’s fallen off a clif is probably abit of an exaduration, still managed to get 5 QF’s last season for example. The big issue is without money it will be hard for the non Irish pro14 sides to compete consistently as they don’t have the tradition of being forces in Europe. Scarlets basically went the same way as Glasgow where it’s one or two good teams and then anonymous for afew seasons. Ospreys are the only non Irish team that I would say have some sort of tradition (when I started watching rugby in 2010 they were the only pro14 side I feared outside of the Irish sides) but their problems go so deep that I think it’s almost irrelevant.
It has fallen off a cliff.
In terms of competitive interest, in terms of an overall product, the Pro14 is probably worse than it has been in a very long time.0 -
It has fallen off a cliff.
In terms of competitive interest, in terms of an overall product, the Pro14 is probably worse than it has been in a very long time.
I think what’s done it in is the 2 SA teams & the conference system. Not going to lie this coming season the reason I have been looking forward to it is because the Cheetahs and Kings won’t be there for the first half. I think bar Leinster the top half is still somewhat competitive but the bottom half the gap has only gotten bigger.0 -
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Irish rugby is slowly losing some of its lustre, after some amazing years. I think its going to be a barren spell until we accept we aren't always the smartest men in the room. We're not FSG. We need to look at our system now and consider whats best. Its far from perfect. Central contracts, player management, the hype machine, the lob sided evolution of Leinster, the pro 14. The stat where Jerry Sexton started more pro 14 games in one year than his brother in 3 is a shocking indictment on the league. Anybody who thinks what we have is the optimum system should listen to sean O'Briens recent recent thoughts on the matter. We have some amazing players coming through but for me the fact a load get produced by one school is actually not a good thing. And anybody pointing this stuff out isn't some sort of troll.This has been a terrible year for Irish rugby on a whole covid or not. I think its safe to say a similar performance in October will be deeply worrying.
Leinster are still one of the best organisations in Europe and we still have fantastic players (although probably as a better collective rather than individual talent, at least compared to what we had in the past). But we need to have a system in place that doesn't see out of form players like Murray or Stockdale automatically start. But we all know they will. Its not great, is it? We need to see our front line players play more games particularly in derbies and finals. For me its rather simple. They don't play in enough tough games with things at stake, and we ringfence too many players in the upper bracket and are glacial in cutting them adrift. Toner is a perfect example of this. Cronin too.0 -
He's completely correct and Irish rugby is slowly being found out, after some amazing years. I think its going to be a barren spell until we accept we aren't the smartest men in the room. We need to look at our system now and consider whats best. Its far from perfect. Central contracts, player management, the hype machine, the lob sided evolution of Leinster. The stat where Jerry Sexton started more pro 14 games in one year than his brother in 3 is a shocking indictment on the league. Anybody who thinks what we have is the optimum system should listen to sean O'Briens recent recent thoughts on the matter.
All because Leinster lost a match, damn.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »All because Leinster lost a match, damn.
No because its been an utterly **** period since the fiasco in Japan, taken as a whole.We should be completely honest with ourselves after such a break and time to prepare, if October goes pear shaped we are in trouble. I think the backers of all the positives in Irish rugby have had alot of leeway. Yes it worked, but sport moves on very quickly.
For me alot of it is recruitment and how we manage the players and who we designate good enough etc. Leinster are brilliant at it and great at spotting the talent. Keenan is an example of it, and Conroy is the opposite with one of our weakest provinces. It makes zero sense for me.
anyway in our heart of hearts we all know the pro 14 is a pile of dog**** at the best of times. The way its marketed, broadcast, picked and so on. But its a young competition and there's not much choice. For me stronger selections are needed
Look LEinster are brilliant and did really well to come back to nearly win it. Furlong was a miss, Sexton is aging, the ref was shocking. Its not as doom and gloom maybe. I'll hold off til after the round of Irish matches.
I suppose there comes a point in time when your teams go out at 1/4 final stages in every competition they are in bar the pro 14 and lose some very physical matches repeatedly, then questions should be asked? at the very least, i mean none of it was in the IRFU's plan that was set out.0 -
i see the hyperbole king is back again after an irish loss... quelle surprise...0
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I see people are still in denial and calling anybody out for any criticism.
sure lets pretend it was nothing. nothing to see here. Leinster weren't physically smashed for the second time by Saracens. Ireland didn't get smashed by England.
Leinster are one of the best rugby organisations in the World. i'm not really having a pop at Leinster.
The PRO 14 has fallen off a cliff as awec and others say.
I think that's the main takeaway and a rugby journalist has the right to point it out. But oh yeah i forgot he's Wumiskey. We much prefer the Murray Kinsella style of reporting that often lacks the big picture kind of thinking that color writers are employed to offer.0 -
No because its been an utterly **** period since the fiasco in Japan, taken as a whole.We should be completely honest with ourselves after such a break and time to prepare, if October goes pear shaped we are in trouble. I think the backers of all the positives in Irish rugby have had alot of leeway. Yes it worked, but sport moves on very quickly.
For me alot of it is recruitment and how we manage the players and who we designate good enough etc. Leinster are brilliant at it and great at spotting the talent. Keenan is an example of it, and Conroy is the opposite with one of our weakest provinces. It makes zero sense for me.
anyway in our heart of hearts we all know the pro 14 is a pile of dog**** at the best of times. The way its marketed, broadcast, picked and so on. But its a young competition and there's not much choice. For me stronger selections are needed
Why weren’t you saying any of this before the game so? The positives in Irish rugby aren’t being used at their best though as one of our strengths is we’re the smartest sides in world rugby and we were at our smartest in 2018 but for whatever reason we turned into possibly the dumbest side of the tier 1 nations in 2019 and some of the crap the players did was alarmingly dumb (Stander taking a tap and go for Ireland when he never does that and kicks it at his own player against Wales being the final straw for me in the 6N).
It’s nothing to do with the recruitment or anything like that, what we have done on this front is no different to 2018 but has changed is how games are executed. For whatever reason now all brains go out the window. I would say recruitment is a problem outside of Leinster I agree and that isn’t just a recent problem (I had a massive rant about this on one of the Ulster threads) this has always been a problem particularly at Munster. Keenan is actually a good player though and has all the attributes to be a top player, Conroy really isn’t though, really good at 7s but would be badly exposed on the XVs pitch, same happened to Carlin Isles who is a similar type of player.
In terms of marketing I completely agree and it’s gotten worse since the SA team and conference system came in and I had been ranting at my disapproval of this before it even happened but had hoped atleast they would improve but in reality they haven’t improved much at all. Personally I just would love it to go back to being a league where you play home and away and have a top 4 for all as another thing I don’t like in the 3rd place getting a knockout game as what it means is only 4 realistic teams are not getting KO rugby which mean the odds are in your favor before a ball is kicked to get KO rugby. Personally I do really enjoy the rugby especially the derbies but the bottom is drab and it doesn’t help when more drab is added to the mix.0 -
I suppose there comes a point in time when your teams go out at 1/4 final stages in every competition they are in bar the pro 14 and lose some very physical matches repeatedly, then questions should be asked? at the very least, i mean none of it was in the IRFU's plan that was set out.
Repeatedly? Leinster have lost one game. In large part due to scrum issues against 3 props who all featured in the Rugby World Cup final.0 -
Repeatedly? Leinster have lost one game. In large part due to scrum issues against 3 props who all featured in the Rugby World Cup final.
I'm going by the last few in a mixed sense. I mean if you criticize the pro 14 for Leinster, its the same for all the provinces. My issue is with the overall structure here mainly.
NZ, Saracens final, England thrice, and Saracens. Its a fine line. it is and we're readily in the mix. But its a pattern now. Good but not good enough. And Leinster are brilliant. They would survive without the IRFU in a sense and would be better without their control (another argument and if money wasn't an issue) But i think Irish rugby, in general, is slipping and i have issues with some of it just like Cumiskey. And people can pretend there is no issues if they like. I mean if we're happy just competing and getting close. Grand
Its opinion and we're all entitled to it. even Cumiskey
Maybe its kneejerk we'll see. But people have been saying that since Japan.There's a time where it ceases to be true and things need to be looked at. For instance in Leinster's case is it time to shift Porter across now? is Toner's time over. In the IRish sphere, should Stockdale or Murray be starting for Ireland come October? that sort of thing.0 -
I'm going by the last few in a mixed sense. I mean if you criticize the pro 14 for Leinster, its the same for all the provinces.
Presumably you mean in the last few season? In the last 3 seasons (inc this one), Leinster have only lost 3 games; twice to Saracens and once to Toulouse away.My issue is with the overall structure here. NZ, Saracens final, England twice, and Saracens. Its a fine line. it is and we're readily in the mix. But its a pattern now. Good but not good enough. And Leinster are brilliant. They would survive without the IRFU in a sense and would be better without their control (another argument and if money wasn't an issue) But i think Irish rugby, in general, is slipping and i have issues with some of it just like Cumiskey.
Its opinion and we're all entitled to it. even Cumiskey
Maybe its kneejerk we'll see. But people have been saying that since Japan.There'sime where it ceases to be true and things need to be looked at. For instance in Leinster's case is it time to shift Porter across now? Toner's time is over. Stockdale should not be starting for Ireland come October.that sort of thing.
I'd agree with a certain amount of this. We do seem to have an issue against power teams like Saracens and England, and we have to find a way around that.
But the teams you've mentioned are the elite teams; it doesn't tally with the 'deep trouble' you were earlier portraying.0 -
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Presumably you mean in the last few season? In the last 3 seasons (inc this one), Leinster have only lost 3 games; twice to Saracens and once to Toulouse away.
I'd agree with a certain amount of this. We do seem to have an issue against power teams like Saracens and England, and we have to find a way around that.
But the teams you've mentioned are the elite teams; it doesn't tally with the 'deep trouble' you were earlier portraying.
as i said i'm not solely referring to Leinster.
I mean i can't say it much more. Leinster are one of the best organisations in the World on a pound for pound basis. and the way they play, the way they train, the way they recruit is World Class. maybe thats hyperbole as well but the good kind.
The deep trouble was referring to Irish rugby as a whole. Like as in four provinces and Ireland. I mean the thing Cummiskey is referring to is the same for all teams.
I think its fair to say if October is a ****show then it should be at least discussed.I mean lets be honest this is possibly Sexton's last season as a bona fide starter, and there will be more change needed.We should be worried. I think there's a big drop off compared to the past and we are maybe kidding ourselves because of the standards of their elite professional status etc.
Look maybe everything is grand.
Maybe the pro 14 isn't crap. Maybe the players play the right amount of games.
but can we have a little honesty, that there could be some things to discuss.
"When you're in the Irish set-up you're managed a lot.
"While that's a good thing for your body at times, it's probably something that I've wondered are you battle-hardened enough to get through a succession of games."
S O'Brien
the above is relevant to the pro 14 debate. as is this - https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1304390004723060736
neither are good things imo at least for the pro 14.0 -
So you mean the Pro14 generally in the last few seasons? Here's the number of Champions Cup semi-finalists by league over the last few seasons:
Year | Pro14 | Eng | Fra
2019/20 | 0 | 2 | 2
2018/19 | 2 | 1 | 1
2017/18 | 3 | 0 | 1
2016/17 | 2 | 1 | 1
I'm not saying the Pro14 doesn't have issues (it does). I'm not saying they shouldn't be discussed (they should).
I just think all this talk of "found out", "barren spell" and "deep trouble" is just over the top, reactionary stuff.0 -
So you mean the Pro14 generally in the last few seasons? Here's the number of Champions Cup semi-finalists by league over the last few seasons:
Year | Pro14 | Eng | Fra
2019/20 | 0 | 2 | 2
2018/19 | 2 | 1 | 1
2017/18 | 3 | 0 | 1
2016/17 | 2 | 1 | 1
I'm not saying the Pro14 doesn't have issues (it does). I'm not saying they shouldn't be discussed (they should).
I just think all this talk of "found out", "barren spell" and "deep trouble" is just over the top, reactionary stuff.
Yeah i deleted the words found out its too strong. I more meant the idea if you bully Irish teams. i think we can be bullied. I don't think teams fear us at all. The margins are really tight at this level and as people regularly pointed out thats probably what it comes down to. In that context we'll regularly compete and get to finals but i think silverware in the big ones will allude us for a while. I think once Sexton goes it will take some time. So ok i concede if thats my doom and gloom, not winning things bar the pro 14, maybe i'm being too greedy.
fair enough. But i wonder when does it stop becoming reactionary like? we've been smashed and bullied a fair few times with our teams. I suppose if we are happy to be just competing then grand. if we are happy one out of four teams is consistently excellent then sure what of it i suppose. Are the Van Graan out munster fans (a growing band) being reactionary?
i hope to God i'm completely wrong. Again this isn't aimed at Leinster for me. I think Cumiskey is wearing his Leinster hat but means the overall structure as well.
The ref was a disgrace, the new laws didn't help and we probably got the selection wrong. And we miss Furlong in these big games.0 -
The fact that he's shocked that Box kicking might trouble Leinster in the back field out of the blue is new...Since the restart it's been obvious Munster ran them close twice and Ulster made some pretty good headway against them in the first half of the final.....but suddenly when saracens do it it's the pro 14's fault.0
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Yeah i deleted the words found out its too strong. I more meant the idea if you bully Irish teams. i think we can be bullied. I don't think teams fear us at all. The margins are really tight at this level and as people regularly pointed out thats probably what it comes down to. In that context we'll regularly compete and get to finals but i think silverware in the big ones will allude us for a while. I think once Sexton goes it will take some time. So ok i concede if thats my doom and gloom, not winning things bar the pro 14, maybe i'm being too greedy.
I'd agree with much of that, tbh.
It's a difficult one to solve. The likes of Itoje and Vunipola are capable of doing that to pretty much any team in the world.
Offensively, the only way of negating their line speed is more expansive play in attack, combined with an intelligent kicking game. Try use their line speed against them. Add in some additional ball carrying e.g. swap Toner, POM and VdF for Henderson, Doris and Leavy (if he can get back to fitness) and things suddenly look a lot healthier.
Defensively, it's more difficult. Connors was brought in to chop Billy V, and he did keep him quiet to a large extent. The problem is Saracens still have the likes of Itoje, Mako, Rhodes to keep them going forward. For England, swap out Rhodes for Curry, Underhill etc.
(Of course, all of this is easier said that done...)0 -
I'd agree with much of that, tbh.
It's a difficult one to solve. The likes of Itoje and Vunipola are capable of doing that to pretty much any team in the world.
Offensively, the only way of negating their line speed is more expansive play in attack, combined with an intelligent kicking game. Try use their line speed against them. Add in some additional ball carrying e.g. swap Toner, POM and VdF for Henderson, Doris and Leavy (if he can get back to fitness) and things suddenly look a lot healthier.
Defensively, it's more difficult. Connors was brought in to chop Billy V, and he did keep him quiet to a large extent. The problem is Saracens still have the likes of Itoje, Mako, Rhodes to keep them going forward. For England, swap out Rhodes for Curry, Underhill etc.
(Of course, all of this is easier said that done...)
Yeah agreed. Look i oscillate from feeling we are bloody brilliant to fearing things. i just bloody love Irish rugby and want whats best. Nothing is ever perfect. The match on Sat was heartbreaking.
but Doris, Henderson, Ryan, Larmour, Leavy, Kelliher, Furlong, Porter, Stander are elite talent (like say in a Lions conversation) with the old guard still giving it socks and often world class performances. i mean its not like the old days at all. it will be tight margins unless Irish rugby just collapses. I hope we can just produce one or two more generational talents in the next couple of years. I mean the Michaels thing is amazing. Its both brilliant and perhaps unnerving. If we can have one school do that then why not more. or it could be framed as why is only one school producing the elite talent?
there's not much we can do about the pro 14. i'll just finish by saying maybe a few more top players playing more games within reason (at least derbies)
would the South African teams strengthen it? i don't think thats a given at least in terms of not making it more of a circus. great for the neutrals bad for a living breathing league.0 -
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I think Ireland are potentially the weakest they have been since the year 2000 now. I really don't think that's a fantastic leinster team to be honest and their 25 match winning streak is a testament to how poor the pro14 is at the moment. Japan was not a flash in the pan, we are just not at top of international tree at the moment. Beaten really comprehensively by England 3 times since grand slam on paddy's day 18.
Leinster have been described as Irelands best ever team and they are incredibly well organised but I don't see many guys that will boss international fixtures. I think the leinster team from about 09 to 14 were a better team and munster 2000 to 2009 were better too in really big games.
Unfortunately for Ireland, we don't have enough players in the other provinces to bolster the good international players leinster do have.
The Scots pro14 teams are average, the Welsh underachieve constantly. Dragons may as well not be in it. Munster I think could be on the way up but their tactics are appalling. Murray and sexton as a 9/10 combo are spent, change needed there ASAP. I like the idea of Conway at full back, think he's the best footballer in Irish back line at the moment, whatever that means!
Earls still best shout for the wing along with Larmour.
I think we will have a poor lions representation next year if things don't change. Barring injuries to the front runners. Furlong, Ryan, Stander the only forwards with a shout for test positions at the moment. Stander maybe as a 6 as Billy v will be ahead of him for 8.
Look at what SA did in wc final and gatlands fondness for big physical players and you can forget about the likes of vdf, deegan, Doris etc being in his plans.
In the backs I could only really see aki and Conway being in contention, maybe larmour as a wing, unless we have some real bolters. I don't think sexton will travel. Farrell, finn Russel and Dan Biggar would probably be my 3.0 -
Heres Johnny wrote: »I think Ireland are potentially the weakest they have been since the year 2000 now. I really don't think that's a fantastic leinster team to be honest and their 25 match winning streak is a testament to how poor the pro14 is at the moment. Japan was not a flash in the pan, we are just not at top of international tree at the moment. Beaten really comprehensively by England 3 times since grand slam on paddy's day 18.
Leinster have been described as Irelands best ever team and they are incredibly well organised but I don't see many guys that will boss international fixtures. I think the leinster team from about 09 to 14 were a better team and munster 2000 to 2009 were better too in really big games.
Unfortunately for Ireland, we don't have enough players in the other provinces to bolster the good international players leinster do have.
The Scots pro14 teams are average, the Welsh underachieve constantly. Dragons may as well not be in it. Munster I think could be on the way up but their tactics are appalling. Murray and sexton as a 9/10 combo are spent, change needed there ASAP. I like the idea of Conway at full back, think he's the best footballer in Irish back line at the moment, whatever that means!
Earls still best shout for the wing along with Larmour.
I think we will have a poor lions representation next year if things don't change. Barring injuries to the front runners. Furlong, Ryan, Stander the only forwards with a shout for test positions at the moment. Stander maybe as a 6 as Billy v will be ahead of him for 8.
Look at what SA did in wc final and gatlands fondness for big physical players and you can forget about the likes of vdf, deegan, Doris etc being in his plans.
In the backs I could only really see aki and Conway being in contention, maybe larmour as a wing, unless we have some real bolters. I don't think sexton will travel. Farrell, finn Russel and Dan Biggar would probably be my 3.
Ireland are currently number 4 in the world
Bar the loss at the weekend Leinster are clearly in the Top 4 in Europe and any other side coming to Dublin would have probably lost.
Munster can say they are at least in top 8 based on previous season and Ulster are close to
Top 8 and are probably in it now after last two seasons
Yes Irish rugby is a complete disaster at the moment :-)0 -
Ireland are currently number 4 in the world
Bar the loss at the weekend Leinster are clearly in the Top 4 in Europe and any other side coming to Dublin would have probably lost.
Munster can say they are at least in top 8 based on previous season and Ulster are close to
Top 8 and are probably in it now after last two seasons
Yes Irish rugby is a complete disaster at the moment :-)
Why do people misquote and then put smiley faces? I didn't say they were a complete disaster, I said they were potentially at their weakest in 20 years. 20 good years, the best in our history. But unlike the optimism I've always had going into world cups and 6 nations every year, I don't have that now with the current pool of players we have to pick from.
England, France (although they've a bit to prove still but I think their new crop are going to be good) , South africa, New Zealand in particular are well ahead of us now like they were pre 2000 and I wouldn't fancy us against any of them now. Yet during last 20 years we have good record against them all, only new Zealand have a big lead over us in head to heads, the rest we have mixed well with. We are in the distinct chasing pack now with the likes of Wales (who probably head that pack), Scotland, Japan if their success is sustainable, Australia and Argentina.
In a world cup knockout match we are anything from just being strangled and nullified to 40 points behind those teams. 40 behind new Zealand who will just pile on points to strangulation by the likes of England and south Africa who will beat us by a death of 1000 cuts.
We no longer have a golden generation, very few now would make the team of the millennium to date.0 -
Heres Johnny wrote: »Why do people misquote and then put smiley faces? I didn't say they were a complete disaster, I said they were potentially at their weakest in 20 years. 20 good years, the best in our history. But unlike the optimism I've always had going into world cups and 6 nations every year, I don't have that now with the current pool of players we have to pick from.
England, France (although they've a bit to prove still but I think their new crop are going to be good) , South africa, New Zealand in particular are well ahead of us now like they were pre 2000 and I wouldn't fancy us against any of them now. Yet during last 20 years we have good record against them all, only new Zealand have a big lead over us in head to heads, the rest we have mixed well with. We are in the distinct chasing pack now with the likes of Wales (who probably head that pack), Scotland, Japan if their success is sustainable, Australia and Argentina.
In a world cup knockout match we are anything from just being strangled and nullified to 40 points behind those teams. 40 behind new Zealand who will just pile on points to strangulation by the likes of England and south Africa who will beat us by a death of 1000 cuts.
We no longer have a golden generation, very few now would make the team of the millennium to date.
How was it a misquote? You said we are in the worst state in20 years, I pointed out how we are not, you then accuse me of misquoting your and then continue to post we are in worst state in 20
Years
Did you read my post? Ireland are number 4 in world and we have at 3 teams in the top 8 in Europe
Now how can we be in the worst state in 20 years?
Leinster lost ONE match all season, that includes home and away wins against the top two team at the time in England and France.
How the hell are ireland in a chasing pack with Scotland etc? We have struggled recently against the top 3 in the World, anyone outside of that we beat more than we lose.0 -
Heres Johnny wrote: »Why do people misquote and then put smiley faces? I didn't say they were a complete disaster, I said they were potentially at their weakest in 20 years. 20 good years, the best in our history. But unlike the optimism I've always had going into world cups and 6 nations every year, I don't have that now with the current pool of players we have to pick from.
England, France (although they've a bit to prove still but I think their new crop are going to be good) , South africa, New Zealand in particular are well ahead of us now like they were pre 2000 and I wouldn't fancy us against any of them now. Yet during last 20 years we have good record against them all, only new Zealand have a big lead over us in head to heads, the rest we have mixed well with. We are in the distinct chasing pack now with the likes of Wales (who probably head that pack), Scotland, Japan if their success is sustainable, Australia and Argentina.
In a world cup knockout match we are anything from just being strangled and nullified to 40 points behind those teams. 40 behind new Zealand who will just pile on points to strangulation by the likes of England and south Africa who will beat us by a death of 1000 cuts.
We no longer have a golden generation, very few now would make the team of the millennium to date.
Pretty good going only be 4th in the world and with a reasonable chance of being 6N champions this year despite being at our worst in 20 years and if anything quite encouraging as the only way is up after this... in all serious this looks a mixture between another knee jerk reaction 1 team losing a match and nostalgia based on your previous posts.
That’s again complete nonsense and the typical knee jerk reaction where you are only going to see the worst in your team and only the best in the opposition, imagine what you would say about Ireland if they lost away to Scotland in the manner that France did. These exact same reactions were made in 2016 after the World Cup and look what happened, things inevitably got better and it ended up being a good World Cup cycle until things fell apart in 2019 and the same will occur this time round.
I mean when you say you don’t see the hype in James Ryan and think O’Gara has a better international career than Sexton then you know that you are engulfed in.nostalgia. You are the definition of a fare weather fan.0 -
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And also saying Doris isn’t big and physical ������ if you’re definition of being big and physical is Billy Vunipola maybe but come on, I get you are upset about the weekend but surely that’s going a bit far? It’s also wrong about the other two but I found Doris not being “big and physical” quite a stand out.0
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How was it a misquote? You said we are in the worst state in20 years, I pointed out how we are not, you then accuse me of misquoting your and then continue to post we are in worst state in 20
Years
Did you read my post? Ireland are number 4 in world and we have at 3 teams in the top 8 in Europe
Now how can we be in the worst state in 20 years?
Leinster lost ONE match all season, that includes home and away wins against the top two team at the time in England and France.
How the hell are ireland in a chasing pack with Scotland etc? We have struggled recently against the top 3 in the World, anyone outside of that we beat more than we lose.
Yes Irish rugby is a complete disaster at the moment :-)
That's your misquote, as if agreeing to me sarcastically saying Irish rugby is a disaster at the moment, which I never said.
I stand over being in worst position in 20 years though, 20 years in which we were realistic contenders going into every 6 nations. We peaked around 2014 to 2018 and have been in sharp decline since. And I mean sharp.
As close as makes no difference to 50% win rates against England, France and South Africa although a 16-2 loss rare against new Zealand. That was our last 20 years.
I can't see Ireland being in with a chance of 2 wins in next 4 matches against England, France or South Africa. We just don't have the players we had.0 -
Heres Johnny wrote: »Yes Irish rugby is a complete disaster at the moment :-)
That's your misquote, as if agreeing to me sarcastically saying Irish rugby is a disaster at the moment, which I never said.
I stand over being in worst position in 20 years though, 20 years in which we were realistic contenders going into every 6 nations. We peaked around 2014 to 2018 and have been in sharp decline since. And I mean sharp.
As close as makes no difference to 50% win rates against England, France and South Africa although a 16-2 loss rare against new Zealand. That was our last 20 years.
I can't see Ireland being in with a chance of 2 wins in next 4 matches against England, France or South Africa. We just don't have the players we had.
We are literally 2 wins away from winning the current 6N, one of which is Italy...are you blind?
You are talking complete tosh in the rest of your comment to put it mildly.0 -
Heres Johnny wrote: »Yes Irish rugby is a complete disaster at the moment :-)
That's your misquote, as if agreeing to me sarcastically saying Irish rugby is a disaster at the moment, which I never said.
I stand over being in worst position in 20 years though, 20 years in which we were realistic contenders going into every 6 nations. We peaked around 2014 to 2018 and have been in sharp decline since. And I mean sharp.
As close as makes no difference to 50% win rates against England, France and South Africa although a 16-2 loss rare against new Zealand. That was our last 20 years.
I can't see Ireland being in with a chance of 2 wins in next 4 matches against England, France or South Africa. We just don't have the players we had.
If you say ireland is in worst state in 20 years then yes you are saying we are a disaster, what else would you call it?
I know if I thought that was the case I would call it a disaster0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »We are literally 2 wins away from winning the current 6N, one of which is Italy...are you blind?
You are talking complete tosh in the rest of your comment to put it mildly.
Hate to tell him/her if ireland has to win in Wales in 2019 even when playing awful they would probably have finished up 6 nations champs0 -
I'd fancy another crack at England with a different backrow than the POM, JvdF, Stander one that featured in the last three games against them. Probably 6. Stander, 7. Connors, 8. Doris but I wouldn't mind seeing 6. Baird, 7. Connors, 8. Doris either. I thought Doris was impressive carrying the ball against Saracens actually. He was making metres post contact with his good footwork.0
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UAEguy2020 wrote: »We are literally 2 wins away from winning the current 6N, one of which is Italy...are you blind?
You are talking complete tosh in the rest of your comment to put it mildly.
France should deal handily with Ireland unless they have a national team Covid hangover. They aren't a disorganised shambles anymore and are finally able to harness their huge talent pool.
Ireland are surely at a low ebb - a fast-fading out-half with no quality replacement on the horizon, same at scrum-half though with some better options, don't compare favourably vs England and France in the power stakes. Smashed by England the last few times.
There is much truth in what "the journalist" says about the Pro 14.
Many of the home games at the RDS in the Pro 14 are so easy that they are like exhibition matches which nothing is learned from and little experience given to the developing players to bring to the crunch European games.0 -
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France should deal handily with Ireland unless they have a national team Covid hangover. They aren't a disorganised shambles anymore and are finally able to harness their huge talent pool.
Ireland are surely at a low ebb - a fast-fading out-half with no quality replacement on the horizon, same at scrum-half though with some better options, don't compare favourably vs England and France in the power stakes. Smashed by England the last few times.
There is much truth in what "the journalist" says about the Pro 14.
Many of the home games at the RDS in the Pro 14 are so easy that they are like exhibition matches which nothing is learned from and little experience given to the developing players to bring to the crunch European games.
They haven’t dealt handily with anyone in this six nations (even Italy). Sure anything is possible in rugby but you can’t come and say predict France will deal handily with Ireland is evidence based and like I said before is probably predicted based on emotion currently.
Ireland aren’t at their best but surely you are exadurating a little bit there? The fact you see not talent 9s or 10s not the horizon shows you aren’t really looking at this logically so it’s pointless even debating. Like I said you are analyzing only the negative aspects of how Ireland have been and only from a positive light on how France and England have been when in truth they haven’t really been that good either.
If there was so much truth why wasn’t mentioned in the pre match build up? Why has the conclusion only been come to after one loss in 18 months? It was never mentioned in the other direction the previous 3 years or when Leinster won 6/6 in the pool stage but then all of a sudden one bad result happens and then bang all hell has broken lose.
Ireland haven’t been playing well obviously but some of the hysteria on this is bordering on laughable almost to the point where I have to ask if you are being serious?0 -
France should deal handily with Ireland unless they have a national team Covid hangover. They aren't a disorganised shambles anymore and are finally able to harness their huge talent pool.
Ireland are surely at a low ebb - a fast-fading out-half with no quality replacement on the horizon, same at scrum-half though with some better options, don't compare favourably vs England and France in the power stakes. Smashed by England the last few times.
There is much truth in what "the journalist" says about the Pro 14.
Many of the home games at the RDS in the Pro 14 are so easy that they are like exhibition matches which nothing is learned from and little experience given to the developing players to bring to the crunch European games.
Was able to prepare the players to win a CC in 2018, get to a final in 2019 and claim top seeds in 2020...but sure let’s use one loss over all of that.0 -
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