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The "journalist"
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21-09-2020 10:23am#1This thread should probably be a sticky. As he has so many badly written and tabloid style articles showing very little respect to players. The lack of balance in the journalists's pieces (not to mention his lack of technical knowledge of the game) need to be called out. Last week he was saying Sarries were cheats and nothing they have achieved should be even counted. Today, he says, Sarries have proved the pro 14 isn't worth it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/the-offload-saracens-prove-pro14-is-not-fit-for-purpose-1.4359761. What does he want the AIL?
Here's the deal Mr. Journo, if you would like to check your facts countless, Irish players over the last ten years have left Irish provinces and got more game time in the Premiership than they did in the Pro 14.
Leinster lost an 8 point game, despite missing Furlong and having some questionable decisions in the match. Several times, Leinster have blown away the leaders of the Premiership.
This is what happens in Sport Mr. Journo. Sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. If teams from the Pro 14 never made the Champions Cup quarters you might have a point. Oh but no... overlook the fact that there is usually 2 - 3 and either the same amount or one or two more than the Premiership or the French League.
At least when Eamon Dunphy gave out about Jack Charlton he actually had a few points. What are Mr. Journo's? What is best analysis of any game? When does he ever show himself to know more than the average fan?
Rant over...0
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I am sort of in disbelief the level of stupidity and knee jerk reacting that we have in journalism these days. One result doesn’t determine anything and if that’s the case why wasn’t he mentioning any of that in the lead up to the match? The vast majority of times a pro14 side comes up against a premiership side the premiership side leaves with their tails between their legs yet one results gives you the conclusion Gavin has come up with.
Leinster lost to the better side on the day...that’s all, it doesn’t mean the earth has frozen over and the world has come to an end it means that Leinster lost...ONE match this season...ONE and that’s all. Any journalist that comes up with this guff should be immediately discounted in future.0 -
Don't give him the clicks!!0
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I get your frustration Tim. But i would vote for even deleting this Thread! Or rename it omitting his name.
Dont give him the publicity/clicks.
I am going to be cancelling my subscription primarily because the rugby coverage in the times has gotten so poor. Murray Kinsella at The 42 provides pretty much all you need to know.
Dorce articles are a joke. GT is GT!
Johnny Watterson is the best rugby journalist in the paper but cant get enough column inches because of the other two.0 -
I promise I'm not Gavin Cummisky.
But to be honest, there is merit in what he says. Some folk are in denial about the Pro14.0 -
I promise I'm not Gavin Cummisky.
But to be honest, there is merit in what he says. Some folk are in denial about the Pro14.
3 of the last 4 years have had more pro14 sides than other teams. If you want to have it this way you can but then when you have 2 or even 3 teams in semi finals the previous 3 years you have to have the same argument.0 -
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UAEguy2020 wrote: »3 of the last 4 years have had more pro14 sides than other teams. If you want to have it this way you can but then when you have 2 or even 3 teams in semi finals the previous 3 years you have to have the same argument.
No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.0 -
No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.
But surely on the flip side that should mean the AP sides should be much more battle hardened? I get it being a factor maybe in March or April but in the pool stage that really shouldn’t be much of an excuse if their league is as competitive as it’s made out and if anything that should be a benefit? That was the narrative when in 2016 5 teams got through but ofcourse that competently changed the next season when the narrative backfired on them. Exeter themselves are on record for saying they want to do something in Europe and are the only side in the GP who have any notion of doing something in Europe bar Sarries yet 3 years on the trot they couldn’t even get out of their pool.
I think this idea of the CC being a rest period is complete and utter tosh and used as a convenient excuse for why they aren’t as good as they are made out to be when they are put up against a team from another country and have to prove how good they really are on the playing field.0 -
If you think someone is on a wind-up, why are you broadcasting their article?!
The Pro14 isn't great and the biggest reason is the financial disparity amongst teams as well as geographical factors. The Welsh regions and Scottish franchises are unable to hold onto their stars who in some cases can move to English sides without even moving home. As examples, Newport is a 40 minute drive to Bristol. Cardiff is a 1h15 drive to Bath. It's difficult for those sides to retain stars and remain competitive over the long term, though the numbers going abroad from Wales has decreased thanks to Gatland's Law.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »But surely on the flip side that should mean the AP sides should be much more battle hardened? I get it being a factor maybe in March or April but in the pool stage that really shouldn’t be much of an excuse if their league is as competitive as it’s made out and if anything that should be a benefit? That was the narrative when in 2016 5 teams got through but ofcourse that competently changed the next season when the narrative backfired on them. Exeter themselves are on record for saying they want to do something in Europe and are the only side in the GP who have any notion of doing something in Europe bar Sarries yet 3 years on the trot they couldn’t even get out of their pool.
I think this idea of the CC being a rest period is complete and utter tosh and used as a convenient excuse for why they aren’t as good as they are made out to be when they are put up against a team from another country and have to prove how good they really are on the playing field.
I didn't say the CC was a rest period.
I said the English and French have long complained that the Pro14 teams have an much easier time in their league fixtures, where the league weekends are basically treated as a chance to give their European players a rest.
It is not an unreasonable point to make, the Pro14 is well known for it, we complain about it often enough ourselves. It's not even that long ago that the Pro12 had to be dragged kicking and screaming to introduce qualification on merit for the CC!
Hopefully with the introduction of CVC we'll see the needle start to move back in the right direction. There'll be no extreme changes but hopefully enough chances to address some of the problems.0 -
I didn't say the CC was a rest period.
I said the English and French have long complained that the Pro14 teams have an much easier time in their league fixtures, where the league weekends are basically treated as a chance to give their European players a rest.
It is not an unreasonable point to make, the Pro14 is well known for it, we complain about it often enough ourselves. It's not even that long ago that the Pro12 had to be dragged kicking and screaming to introduce qualification on merit for the CC!
Hopefully with the introduction of CVC we'll see the needle start to move back in the right direction. There'll be no extreme changes but hopefully enough chances to address some of the problems.
I misunderstood, apologies.
Maybe that’s the case in some ways but from my watching of the matches in Europe I don’t get the impression the pro14 having a better fixture list is the reason they do better in Europe and if anything it looks like the premiership sides are just as prepared as the Pro14 sides are. If the GO sides were huffing and puffing in the last 20 in matches then you might a point in this regard but from my observations this is hardly the case and it’s just of a case of the GP sides not being good enough on the day. The reason pro14 sides can do this is they don’t age the finances of the GP and T14 sides so can’t just go out and sign a top class replacement so they must turn to their academy and have been doing so for years meaning now it’s more of a tradition and easier for them to do, in England for instance all they know of is a cheque book to sort out their problems so are less confident in turning to youth when things go wrong. We have seen this season with Exeter when the academy is there and the squad depth is there they were no different to a Leinster or a Munster when it comes to rotating their squad, because they are able to do so whereas the other GP sides aren’t.
The reality is there isn’t that much between the standards of the league, each league is just different in how they opperate so are nearly impossible to directly compare. France is a free for all when it comes to money, the P14 is the complete opposite and the GP is right in between so the 3 will always opperate in different ways, it’s just how it is and some seasons you will get 0 in the last 4 and some you will get 3 and it doesn’t mean one is automatically better than the other and on another season it could be a totally different outcome.
Hopefully some changes can be made in thy regard to make it easier for the bottom half sides to compete but tbh I just want to get it right in between what we currently have and the GP, I don’t want it to become a money league as that’s what I love about the P14 is being able to look forward to the next star come through and not have to worry about some pensioner delaying his pathway (good young players will always come through but without someone blocking the route it might help make the transition quicker and smoother) and this for example is why I’m not happy with the situations at Munster where they bring in medical jokers instead of a young player. Not just Ireland but I love seeing the young guys come through in Scotland, Wales and even Italy in recent years, it’s the spike of the league and I hope we get the balance between money and development exactly right.0 -
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No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.
The Premiership teams rotate players as well. Sarries did that in last match before Leinster. The journalist (won't say his name) says, not playing Sexton in the final and instead Ross Byrne says it all. I would have said... Sexton is the more physical player and better suited to Sarries for 60 mins with Byrne for last 20. Byrne has better fitness and more suited to Ulster with Sexton for last 20. Byrne probably also quicker.
Also, you don't know what has been happening in training. Maybe Sexton has a few niggles. Or Byrne did. You never know.0 -
Done.ionadnapokot wrote: »I get your frustration Tim. But i would vote for even deleting this Thread! Or rename it omitting his name.0 -
Tim Robbins wrote: »The Premiership teams rotate players as well. Sarries did that in last match before Leinster. The journalist (won't say his name) says, not playing Sexton in the final and instead Ross Byrne says it all. I would have said... Sexton is the more physical player and better suited to Sarries for 60 mins with Byrne for last 20. Byrne has better fitness and more suited to Ulster with Sexton for last 20. Byrne probably also quicker.
Also, you don't know what has been happening in training. Maybe Sexton has a few niggles. Or Byrne did. You never know.
What it also says is Sexton is 35 and needs his games managed and it helps when your 2nd choice 10 would possibly start for any other team in the league.
Funny that this “journalist” didn’t mention of this pre match...0 -
No you don't.
The argument all along, and it is a totally valid and correct argument, is that the Pro14 teams have treated their league as such a joke that the time between European fixtures is essentially an extended rest period.
People who make this argument don't care for either player safety or development. They would rather see the same 23 get smashed around 30-40 times a season than players being looked after, having adequate recovery time and youth getting a chance to prove their worth. They're only interested in immediate gratification and using players as a commodity for their entertainment.0 -
pickarooney wrote: »People who make this argument don't care for either player safety or development. They would rather see the same 23 get smashed around 30-40 times a season than players being looked after, having adequate recovery time and youth getting a chance to prove their worth. They're only interested in immediate gratification and using players as a commodity for their entertainment.
This is complete nonsense, in fairness.
Absolutely nobody anywhere is calling for the same 23 every week. Nobody.0 -
pickarooney wrote: »People who make this argument don't care for either player safety or development. They would rather see the same 23 get smashed around 30-40 times a season than players being looked after, having adequate recovery time and youth getting a chance to prove their worth. They're only interested in immediate gratification and using players as a commodity for their entertainment.
Nobody wants 30-40 games at all.
I think eventually we'll have a B&I league with conferences/tiers.0 -
The Pro 14 has fallen off a cliff in terms of quality over the past few seasons, in particular thanks to the decline of Glasgow, Scarlets and complete collapse of Ospreys.
This article however is only written to try and excuse Leinster's failings by shifting the blame elsewhere so I agree with the sentiment expressed, I'm not sure who if anyone takes this guy seriously or why the IT continue to give him a platform.0 -
The Pro 14 has fallen off a cliff in terms of quality over the past few seasons, in particular thanks to the decline of Glasgow, Scarlets and complete collapse of Ospreys.
This article however is only written to try and excuse Leinster's failings by shifting the blame elsewhere so I agree with the sentiment expressed, I'm not sure who if anyone takes this guy seriously or why the IT continue to give him a platform.
It’s not as good because 2 of the other big teams have taken steps backwards but to say it’s fallen off a clif is probably abit of an exaduration, still managed to get 5 QF’s last season for example. The big issue is without money it will be hard for the non Irish pro14 sides to compete consistently as they don’t have the tradition of being forces in Europe. Scarlets basically went the same way as Glasgow where it’s one or two good teams and then anonymous for afew seasons. Ospreys are the only non Irish team that I would say have some sort of tradition (when I started watching rugby in 2010 they were the only pro14 side I feared outside of the Irish sides) but their problems go so deep that I think it’s almost irrelevant.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »It’s not as good because 2 of the other big teams have taken steps backwards but to say it’s fallen off a clif is probably abit of an exaduration, still managed to get 5 QF’s last season for example. The big issue is without money it will be hard for the non Irish pro14 sides to compete consistently as they don’t have the tradition of being forces in Europe. Scarlets basically went the same way as Glasgow where it’s one or two good teams and then anonymous for afew seasons. Ospreys are the only non Irish team that I would say have some sort of tradition (when I started watching rugby in 2010 they were the only pro14 side I feared outside of the Irish sides) but their problems go so deep that I think it’s almost irrelevant.
It has fallen off a cliff.
In terms of competitive interest, in terms of an overall product, the Pro14 is probably worse than it has been in a very long time.0 -
It has fallen off a cliff.
In terms of competitive interest, in terms of an overall product, the Pro14 is probably worse than it has been in a very long time.
I think what’s done it in is the 2 SA teams & the conference system. Not going to lie this coming season the reason I have been looking forward to it is because the Cheetahs and Kings won’t be there for the first half. I think bar Leinster the top half is still somewhat competitive but the bottom half the gap has only gotten bigger.0 -
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Irish rugby is slowly losing some of its lustre, after some amazing years. I think its going to be a barren spell until we accept we aren't always the smartest men in the room. We're not FSG. We need to look at our system now and consider whats best. Its far from perfect. Central contracts, player management, the hype machine, the lob sided evolution of Leinster, the pro 14. The stat where Jerry Sexton started more pro 14 games in one year than his brother in 3 is a shocking indictment on the league. Anybody who thinks what we have is the optimum system should listen to sean O'Briens recent recent thoughts on the matter. We have some amazing players coming through but for me the fact a load get produced by one school is actually not a good thing. And anybody pointing this stuff out isn't some sort of troll.This has been a terrible year for Irish rugby on a whole covid or not. I think its safe to say a similar performance in October will be deeply worrying.
Leinster are still one of the best organisations in Europe and we still have fantastic players (although probably as a better collective rather than individual talent, at least compared to what we had in the past). But we need to have a system in place that doesn't see out of form players like Murray or Stockdale automatically start. But we all know they will. Its not great, is it? We need to see our front line players play more games particularly in derbies and finals. For me its rather simple. They don't play in enough tough games with things at stake, and we ringfence too many players in the upper bracket and are glacial in cutting them adrift. Toner is a perfect example of this. Cronin too.0 -
He's completely correct and Irish rugby is slowly being found out, after some amazing years. I think its going to be a barren spell until we accept we aren't the smartest men in the room. We need to look at our system now and consider whats best. Its far from perfect. Central contracts, player management, the hype machine, the lob sided evolution of Leinster. The stat where Jerry Sexton started more pro 14 games in one year than his brother in 3 is a shocking indictment on the league. Anybody who thinks what we have is the optimum system should listen to sean O'Briens recent recent thoughts on the matter.
All because Leinster lost a match, damn.0 -
UAEguy2020 wrote: »All because Leinster lost a match, damn.
No because its been an utterly **** period since the fiasco in Japan, taken as a whole.We should be completely honest with ourselves after such a break and time to prepare, if October goes pear shaped we are in trouble. I think the backers of all the positives in Irish rugby have had alot of leeway. Yes it worked, but sport moves on very quickly.
For me alot of it is recruitment and how we manage the players and who we designate good enough etc. Leinster are brilliant at it and great at spotting the talent. Keenan is an example of it, and Conroy is the opposite with one of our weakest provinces. It makes zero sense for me.
anyway in our heart of hearts we all know the pro 14 is a pile of dog**** at the best of times. The way its marketed, broadcast, picked and so on. But its a young competition and there's not much choice. For me stronger selections are needed
Look LEinster are brilliant and did really well to come back to nearly win it. Furlong was a miss, Sexton is aging, the ref was shocking. Its not as doom and gloom maybe. I'll hold off til after the round of Irish matches.
I suppose there comes a point in time when your teams go out at 1/4 final stages in every competition they are in bar the pro 14 and lose some very physical matches repeatedly, then questions should be asked? at the very least, i mean none of it was in the IRFU's plan that was set out.0 -
i see the hyperbole king is back again after an irish loss... quelle surprise...0
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I see people are still in denial and calling anybody out for any criticism.
sure lets pretend it was nothing. nothing to see here. Leinster weren't physically smashed for the second time by Saracens. Ireland didn't get smashed by England.
Leinster are one of the best rugby organisations in the World. i'm not really having a pop at Leinster.
The PRO 14 has fallen off a cliff as awec and others say.
I think that's the main takeaway and a rugby journalist has the right to point it out. But oh yeah i forgot he's Wumiskey. We much prefer the Murray Kinsella style of reporting that often lacks the big picture kind of thinking that color writers are employed to offer.0 -
No because its been an utterly **** period since the fiasco in Japan, taken as a whole.We should be completely honest with ourselves after such a break and time to prepare, if October goes pear shaped we are in trouble. I think the backers of all the positives in Irish rugby have had alot of leeway. Yes it worked, but sport moves on very quickly.
For me alot of it is recruitment and how we manage the players and who we designate good enough etc. Leinster are brilliant at it and great at spotting the talent. Keenan is an example of it, and Conroy is the opposite with one of our weakest provinces. It makes zero sense for me.
anyway in our heart of hearts we all know the pro 14 is a pile of dog**** at the best of times. The way its marketed, broadcast, picked and so on. But its a young competition and there's not much choice. For me stronger selections are needed
Why weren’t you saying any of this before the game so? The positives in Irish rugby aren’t being used at their best though as one of our strengths is we’re the smartest sides in world rugby and we were at our smartest in 2018 but for whatever reason we turned into possibly the dumbest side of the tier 1 nations in 2019 and some of the crap the players did was alarmingly dumb (Stander taking a tap and go for Ireland when he never does that and kicks it at his own player against Wales being the final straw for me in the 6N).
It’s nothing to do with the recruitment or anything like that, what we have done on this front is no different to 2018 but has changed is how games are executed. For whatever reason now all brains go out the window. I would say recruitment is a problem outside of Leinster I agree and that isn’t just a recent problem (I had a massive rant about this on one of the Ulster threads) this has always been a problem particularly at Munster. Keenan is actually a good player though and has all the attributes to be a top player, Conroy really isn’t though, really good at 7s but would be badly exposed on the XVs pitch, same happened to Carlin Isles who is a similar type of player.
In terms of marketing I completely agree and it’s gotten worse since the SA team and conference system came in and I had been ranting at my disapproval of this before it even happened but had hoped atleast they would improve but in reality they haven’t improved much at all. Personally I just would love it to go back to being a league where you play home and away and have a top 4 for all as another thing I don’t like in the 3rd place getting a knockout game as what it means is only 4 realistic teams are not getting KO rugby which mean the odds are in your favor before a ball is kicked to get KO rugby. Personally I do really enjoy the rugby especially the derbies but the bottom is drab and it doesn’t help when more drab is added to the mix.0 -
I suppose there comes a point in time when your teams go out at 1/4 final stages in every competition they are in bar the pro 14 and lose some very physical matches repeatedly, then questions should be asked? at the very least, i mean none of it was in the IRFU's plan that was set out.
Repeatedly? Leinster have lost one game. In large part due to scrum issues against 3 props who all featured in the Rugby World Cup final.0 -
Repeatedly? Leinster have lost one game. In large part due to scrum issues against 3 props who all featured in the Rugby World Cup final.
I'm going by the last few in a mixed sense. I mean if you criticize the pro 14 for Leinster, its the same for all the provinces. My issue is with the overall structure here mainly.
NZ, Saracens final, England thrice, and Saracens. Its a fine line. it is and we're readily in the mix. But its a pattern now. Good but not good enough. And Leinster are brilliant. They would survive without the IRFU in a sense and would be better without their control (another argument and if money wasn't an issue) But i think Irish rugby, in general, is slipping and i have issues with some of it just like Cumiskey. And people can pretend there is no issues if they like. I mean if we're happy just competing and getting close. Grand
Its opinion and we're all entitled to it. even Cumiskey
Maybe its kneejerk we'll see. But people have been saying that since Japan.There's a time where it ceases to be true and things need to be looked at. For instance in Leinster's case is it time to shift Porter across now? is Toner's time over. In the IRish sphere, should Stockdale or Murray be starting for Ireland come October? that sort of thing.0 -
I'm going by the last few in a mixed sense. I mean if you criticize the pro 14 for Leinster, its the same for all the provinces.
Presumably you mean in the last few season? In the last 3 seasons (inc this one), Leinster have only lost 3 games; twice to Saracens and once to Toulouse away.My issue is with the overall structure here. NZ, Saracens final, England twice, and Saracens. Its a fine line. it is and we're readily in the mix. But its a pattern now. Good but not good enough. And Leinster are brilliant. They would survive without the IRFU in a sense and would be better without their control (another argument and if money wasn't an issue) But i think Irish rugby, in general, is slipping and i have issues with some of it just like Cumiskey.
Its opinion and we're all entitled to it. even Cumiskey
Maybe its kneejerk we'll see. But people have been saying that since Japan.There'sime where it ceases to be true and things need to be looked at. For instance in Leinster's case is it time to shift Porter across now? Toner's time is over. Stockdale should not be starting for Ireland come October.that sort of thing.
I'd agree with a certain amount of this. We do seem to have an issue against power teams like Saracens and England, and we have to find a way around that.
But the teams you've mentioned are the elite teams; it doesn't tally with the 'deep trouble' you were earlier portraying.0 -
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Presumably you mean in the last few season? In the last 3 seasons (inc this one), Leinster have only lost 3 games; twice to Saracens and once to Toulouse away.
I'd agree with a certain amount of this. We do seem to have an issue against power teams like Saracens and England, and we have to find a way around that.
But the teams you've mentioned are the elite teams; it doesn't tally with the 'deep trouble' you were earlier portraying.
as i said i'm not solely referring to Leinster.
I mean i can't say it much more. Leinster are one of the best organisations in the World on a pound for pound basis. and the way they play, the way they train, the way they recruit is World Class. maybe thats hyperbole as well but the good kind.
The deep trouble was referring to Irish rugby as a whole. Like as in four provinces and Ireland. I mean the thing Cummiskey is referring to is the same for all teams.
I think its fair to say if October is a ****show then it should be at least discussed.I mean lets be honest this is possibly Sexton's last season as a bona fide starter, and there will be more change needed.We should be worried. I think there's a big drop off compared to the past and we are maybe kidding ourselves because of the standards of their elite professional status etc.
Look maybe everything is grand.
Maybe the pro 14 isn't crap. Maybe the players play the right amount of games.
but can we have a little honesty, that there could be some things to discuss.
"When you're in the Irish set-up you're managed a lot.
"While that's a good thing for your body at times, it's probably something that I've wondered are you battle-hardened enough to get through a succession of games."
S O'Brien
the above is relevant to the pro 14 debate. as is this - https://twitter.com/rpetty80/status/1304390004723060736
neither are good things imo at least for the pro 14.0
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