Random Running Questions

KSU · 27-08-2020 9:32pm

@HannibalSmith

Keep going with the plan but just need to tweak the paces.

For threshold aim for a shade quicker than your current 10k fitness.

For 10k pace tweak it so that your are roughly aiming for a pace you can hit for around 35 or so minutes.

These should give you roughly the training stimulus that most training plans would be aiming for.

KSU · 27-08-2020 9:40pm

Murph_D wrote: »

If you're really interested in knowing this stuff you could take a lactate threshold test that would show you exactly where this 'one hour' pace is, based on pinprick blood tests while running progressively faster laps of a track. Can be very interesting. It's possible (if maybe unlikely) that this pace is faster than your 10k, in which case it would be a poor metric to be using in a 10k plan, as TFB has suggested!

Wouldn't say unlikely. Plenty of people in the same boat though generally people don't get into more specific plans beyond running usually till beyond that level so plans tend not to tailor for this. It's one of the downfalls of relying solely on one metric (HR, pace etc) as there an be other factors (biomechanical as one example) that can influence without taking into account energy systems etc

Hannibal_Smith · 27-08-2020 10:14pm

KSU wrote: »

@HannibalSmith
For threshold aim for a shade quicker than your current 10k fitness.

Quicker? Really? Should I point out that the plan says that these are time based intervals that for example go something like 7 mins threshold, 3 mins 10k, without a recovery in between?

.

It would certainly be a more recognisable pace and would make it a lot easier to judge!

ETA: All the above certainly explain why training calculators dont stretch as low as where I'm at

. I know I asked before (and it was nicely answered) about whether to go back over plans to rinse more out of them. So I wonder whether there might be a benefit to that, if I'm at such a base level and (hopefully levels improve) I could move up the paces like a ladder type thing?

Annie get your Run · 28-08-2020 10:35pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Quicker? Really? Should I point out that the plan says that these are time based intervals that for example go something like 7 mins threshold, 3 mins 10k, without a recovery in between? .

It would certainly be a more recognisable pace and would make it a lot easier to judge!

ETA: All the above certainly explain why training calculators dont stretch as low as where I'm at . I know I asked before (and it was nicely answered) about whether to go back over plans to rinse more out of them. So I wonder whether there might be a benefit to that, if I'm at such a base level and (hopefully levels improve) I could move up the paces like a ladder type thing?

I started one of those garmin plans but quickly stopped . I find them either too advanced or too simple, nothing in between which is where I am right now. I'm struggling to find something that will bring me to a place where I can start thinking about threshold pace etc. It might be worth running these by feel rather than focusing too much on paces?

Hannibal_Smith · 29-08-2020 9:58am

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I started one of those garmin plans but quickly stopped . I find them either too advanced or too simple, nothing in between which is where I am right now. I'm struggling to find something that will bring me to a place where I can start thinking about threshold pace etc. It might be worth running these by feel rather than focusing too much on paces?

Thanks for the reply Annie, I feel you're going to get more than you bargained for with this reply, but I'll go for it anyway

When I run by feel I think I'm really reading things correctly, but then I look at the watch and I'm way off. Last night is a perfect example. The plan asked for a 30 min recovery run, so off I went never looked at the watch and thought I went as slow as I could. When I got home I looked at it and the avg pace was 11.40 :rolleyes: There was a time at the beginning of the 5k plan where it asked for 2 mins at 5k pace and there I was flying off thinking I was great holding on to a lovely pace I'd love to run a 5k at wondering if I kept training at this pace I'd come up to the mark by the end of the plan, but then I did the mile TT and quickly twigged, I should be touching no where near what I was doing in the plan

So my judgement is a bit off

I get that it sounds as if I'm focusing too much on paces, but the two things I really want are (a) to improve and (b) not to get injured :pac: I don't want to be at the end of the 12 weeks and to have gone too softly and not got as much out of it as I should have. Equally I don't want to be a week away from the KBC 10k and be rolling and icing an aching foot because I've ran the whole plan faster than I was capable of.

Although I'm no where at your level, I find there are three types of plans when you search - beginner - intermediate - advanced. The beginner ones all seem to incorporate some level of walk/run approach and the intermediate are too advanced. But when I looked at this 10k plan it seemed to have everything I wanted and seemed manageable in that most other plans said to run x miles on a given day, whereas this one says run x minutes. So my logic was that as long as I get out and run and just do it at my pace I have to improve and not get injured

Swashbuckler · 29-08-2020 10:20am

Hannibal_Smith wrote:

I get that it sounds as if I'm focusing too much on paces, but the two things I really want are (a) to improve and (b) not to get injured I don't want to be at the end of the 12 weeks and to have gone too softly and not got as much out of it as I should have. Equally I don't want to be a week away from the KBC 10k and be rolling and icing an aching foot because I've ran the whole plan faster than I was capable of.

Sorry for short response (I have two kids under three hanging off me today).

Two pieces of advice.
Don't worry about not getting the max out of a block. If you train consistently you will improve. You don't always have to be on the edge. Undercooked is always better than overcooked when it comes to running.

As much as I hate saying it you should focus on pace right now. Running by feel should be the goal of every runner but it takes practice. Let that come to you. for now follow the paces from your recent TT all the while keeping in your mind how those paces feel on any given day. That's how you'll learn.

Hannibal_Smith · 29-08-2020 2:16pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Sorry for short response (I have two kids under three hanging off me today).

Two pieces of advice.
Don't worry about not getting the max out of a block. If you train consistently you will improve. You don't always have to be on the edge. Undercooked is always better than overcooked when it comes to running.

As much as I hate saying it you should focus on pace right now. Running by feel should be the goal of every runner but it takes practice. Let that come to you. for now follow the paces from your recent TT all the while keeping in your mind how those paces feel on any given day. That's how you'll learn.

Thanks a lot for this. It's really changed my thinking. I read it just before heading out earlier and it was lovely and relaxed.

Annie get your Run · 29-08-2020 4:30pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Annie, I feel you're going to get more than you bargained for with this reply, but I'll go for it anyway

When I run by feel I think I'm really reading things correctly, but then I look at the watch and I'm way off. Last night is a perfect example. The plan asked for a 30 min recovery run, so off I went never looked at the watch and thought I went as slow as I could. When I got home I looked at it and the avg pace was 11.40 :rolleyes: There was a time at the beginning of the 5k plan where it asked for 2 mins at 5k pace and there I was flying off thinking I was great holding on to a lovely pace I'd love to run a 5k at wondering if I kept training at this pace I'd come up to the mark by the end of the plan, but then I did the mile TT and quickly twigged, I should be touching no where near what I was doing in the plan So my judgement is a bit off

I get that it sounds as if I'm focusing too much on paces, but the two things I really want are (a) to improve and (b) not to get injured :pac: I don't want to be at the end of the 12 weeks and to have gone too softly and not got as much out of it as I should have. Equally I don't want to be a week away from the KBC 10k and be rolling and icing an aching foot because I've ran the whole plan faster than I was capable of.

Although I'm no where at your level, I find there are three types of plans when you search - beginner - intermediate - advanced. The beginner ones all seem to incorporate some level of walk/run approach and the intermediate are too advanced. But when I looked at this 10k plan it seemed to have everything I wanted and seemed manageable in that most other plans said to run x miles on a given day, whereas this one says run x minutes. So my logic was that as long as I get out and run and just do it at my pace I have to improve and not get injured

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Sorry for short response (I have two kids under three hanging off me today).

Two pieces of advice.
Don't worry about not getting the max out of a block. If you train consistently you will improve. You don't always have to be on the edge. Undercooked is always better than overcooked when it comes to running.

As much as I hate saying it you should focus on pace right now. Running by feel should be the goal of every runner but it takes practice. Let that come to you. for now follow the paces from your recent TT all the while keeping in your mind how those paces feel on any given day. That's how you'll learn.

Given your response to my post, SB is right, I forgot that you have to learn to run by feel - having said that, I would not be beating myself up if I couldn't reach x pace on a run if I wasn't feeling the love for that pace. As said above, consistency is your friend here, stick roughly to the plan week in and week out without overcooking anything or getting too hung up on paces and you'll see progress.

Now, if only I would take my own advice everything would be hunky dory

I am not that far off your paces at the moment either L.

Hannibal_Smith · 29-08-2020 5:43pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Given your response to my post, SB is right, I forgot that you have to learn to run by feel - having said that, I would not be beating myself up if I couldn't reach x pace on a run if I wasn't feeling the love for that pace. As said above, consistency is your friend here, stick roughly to the plan week in and week out without overcooking anything or getting too hung up on paces and you'll see progress.

Now, if only I would take my own advice everything would be hunky dory I am not that far off your paces at the moment either L.

No I'm definitely not beating myself up. I've been there done that and made it absolutely miserable for myself last time. I'm not doing it again. Wednesday's run went a bit wrong and I was just checking to see if I'd done something wrong and mixed paces up. It could also be that I flooded the engine trying a run like that after taking a week off for holidays

Im just so happy to be getting this second chance. I never thought I'd be here again. I was only ever going to just keep it at small jogs whenever the mood struck. Then that stupid 5k TT came along :pac: I thought I was going to die during it, but I managed to hold on so I thought if I could hold on with no training... maybe with some training I could get somewhere close to where I would have liked to have been last time.

I definitely needed to hear that running by feel was something you had to keep practising to get right. And you're both right, consistency will take care of a lot and getting it right and keeping it enjoyable will keep me heading out!

adrian522 · 29-08-2020 10:21pm

I'm looking for a Base building plan with a view to spending a few months on this phase. Does anyone have anything they have used in the past or any advice in this in general?

I was reading this, and was thinking 4 weeks of easy runs building up mileage to around 40 miles per week and then adding some steady runs for a few more weeks before progressing to intervals and tempo runs.

Any thoughts?

Huzzah! · 30-08-2020 4:51pm

adrian522 wrote: »

I'm looking for a Base building plan with a view to spending a few months on this phase. Does anyone have anything they have used in the past or any advice in this in general?

I was reading this, and was thinking 4 weeks of easy runs building up mileage to around 40 miles per week and then adding some steady runs for a few more weeks before progressing to intervals and tempo runs.

Any thoughts?

The base building plans in Faster Road Racing might fit the bill. The Building up to 45 miles plan starts with five runs a week, mainly general aerobic runs with the longer run an endurance run. Strides are introduced in week four and LT stuff in week 5.

The Up to 30 miles a week plans starts with four runs a week.

adrian522 · 30-08-2020 8:57pm

Huzzah! wrote: »

The base building plans in Faster Road Racing might fit the bill. The Building up to 45 miles plan starts with five runs a week, mainly general aerobic runs with the longer run an endurance run. Strides are introduced in week four and LT stuff in week 5.

The Up to 30 miles a week plans starts with four runs a week.

Thanks, I actually have that book, must dig it out.

Itziger · 26-09-2020 8:26am

I don't think this deserves an actual Thread so, I'll chuck it in here.

Advise and Predict my Marathon Time: October 18th 2020

Background Info: Been running for about 13 years. I've done 15 or so marathons and about 20 Half Ms. PB for the full is 2.57 and for the Half is 1.21. Most recent full was December '19 with the PB mentioned above. Most recent Half was 6 days ago 1.23 - just under 2 mins off PB with some decent prep but not ideal. Training has been ok BUT with almost no long runs. I've done a couple of 22km runs and one 24km run in the last few months. I was even a tiny bit undercooked for the Half, nevermind the 42k race upcoming.

I decided to register for the Marathon cos it's such a luxury this year to have one, and it's very close to me, 50kms down the road in Metz. Plan for the next few weeks is to try to get a couple of 26 km runs in, maybe even 28/30k. My weekly mileage is around 90 to 100 kms for the last 6 weeks so there is some base there. I think I might target 3.10 or 3.15 for the race. What do you folk reckon? A couple of opinions, if you please and hopefully we'll keep it pleasant!!

MY BAD · 26-09-2020 8:58am

2:01:38.9

Itziger · 26-09-2020 9:09am

MY BAD wrote: »

2:01:38.9

Well, I do have a pair of pink shoes.............

adrian522 · 26-09-2020 9:37am

Why would you not target a PB? just lack of endurance based off no long runs?

My biggest racing regret is not running Dublin after targeting a half marathon goal race. I was fit enough to have run a great marathon but never ran the race.

I haven't been in that sort of shape since and that was 3 years ago.

I have no idea what you should be targeting but certainly try a few long runs and see how you feel.

Itziger · 26-09-2020 11:50am

adrian522 wrote: »

Why would you not target a PB? just lack of endurance based off no long runs?

My biggest racing regret is not running Dublin after targeting a half marathon goal race. I was fit enough to have run a great marathon but never ran the race.

I haven't been in that sort of shape since and that was 3 years ago.

I have no idea what you should be targeting but certainly try a few long runs and see how you feel.

I've only got 3 weeks, 4 from last Sunday's Half. Don't see myself running a PB with no long runs. I'd blow up like a balloon at 30k.

healy1835 · 26-09-2020 12:05pm

I'd say 3:10 is fairly achievable Donal. It'll feel comfortable for you....until it doesn't

if you've a bit of company on the day and you hold up at all, I'd expect you to comfortably go under 3:10.

Edit: You looked for a prediction.... 3:08:15

Itziger · 26-09-2020 1:27pm

healy1835 wrote: »

I'd say 3:10 is fairly achievable Donal. It'll feel comfortable for you....until it doesn't if you've a bit of company on the day and you hold up at all, I'd expect you to comfortably go under 3:10.

Edit: You looked for a prediction.... 3:08:15

Yeah, that's just the thing. I've met a fellow Gael here recently who's doing it and he's going for a 3.10 PB I think. Be great if I could keep him company and maybe help him achieve that. He did 1.30 last week in the Half.

This last year I've met 4 or 5 lads and we've got a bit of a training group going. It's brilliant. For years I'd been running almost always solo.

I do like your line about it feeling comfortable....... until it doesn't!!

Sunny Dayz · 28-09-2020 10:32am

Not sure if this should go here or the DCM20 thread or if I'm just having a rant!

Friend of mine did DCM last year and was reg'd again for this year. When DCM20 was cancelled he registered for the virtual. I wasn't sure what distance I would register for (longest I've run is half marathons) but he said will you do the virtual full marathon with me for the craic so I said sure go on! It's now just under a month to go, I've kinda been tipping away at the running (must update my log!), I could be doing more but my longest run so far has been 16 miles which I actually enjoyed. I've wanted to make sure that I could hopefully complete the marathon, it won't be fast, there's no point (IMO) in racing for a virtual but I want to be comfortable that I can do it. But my friend doesn't seem to have done much running in comparison, he's done other events but the longest he's run in the past few weeks has been 12km. So now I'm starting to worry. I don't know is he thinking "sure I've done a marathon before, sure be grand!" I'm worrying that I'm going to have to be the one to encourage and motivate him around the route when it should have been the other way around!

I suppose my random running question is: should I tell him to féCk off with his virtual marathon now and throw in the towel? Or is there any way I can encourage him to get some decent miles done between now and then?

wersal gummage · 02-10-2020 11:28am

Don't want to start a while thread, very grateful for any guidance.....

New to running since the lockdown, don't ever intend to take it seriously, just staving off the middle aged weight transfer from upper body to middle.....

Currently running maybe 40km a week, fairly consistently.

Anyway, my question....

In winter, do people running on road just run in normal runners or do you tend to buy a more focused or specialised shoe? I don't mind getting wet, but the thoughts of running 10 or 15km in wet socks and shoes from early off would be a bit unpleasant I think?

Casey78 · 02-10-2020 11:58am

wersal gummage wrote: »

Don't want to start a while thread, very grateful for any guidance.....

New to running since the lockdown, don't ever intend to take it seriously, just staving off the middle aged weight transfer from upper body to middle.....

Currently running maybe 40km a week, fairly consistently.

Anyway, my question....

In winter, do people running on road just run in normal runners or do you tend to buy a more focused or specialised shoe? I don't mind getting wet, but the thoughts of running 10 or 15km in wet socks and shoes from early off would be a bit unpleasant I think?

Sounds like to me that you are already taking it seriously...

I suppose you could buy a running shoe with gore tex, maybe the Nike Pegasus trail or something similar.
I don't think its ever been much of an issue for me when I'm running in wet weather though, I just grab a pair with good grip so I'm not slipping, getting wet doesn't really bother me.

4Ad · 02-10-2020 12:04pm

wersal gummage wrote: »

Don't want to start a while thread, very grateful for any guidance.....

New to running since the lockdown, don't ever intend to take it seriously, just staving off the middle aged weight transfer from upper body to middle.....

Currently running maybe 40km a week, fairly consistently.

Anyway, my question....

In winter, do people running on road just run in normal runners or do you tend to buy a more focused or specialised shoe? I don't mind getting wet, but the thoughts of running 10 or 15km in wet socks and shoes from early off would be a bit unpleasant I think?

Sealskinz do waterproof socks, I cant say I have used them though !!

adrian522 · 02-10-2020 12:26pm

Just normal running shoes and socks, same as in Summer. Ireland is nearly as wet as people think it is, and if it is wet you just get on with it, its not too bad most of the time drizzly/misty sort of rain.

ariana` · 02-10-2020 1:11pm

Just normal socks & shoes here too... I've been soaked to the skin a few times and it's fairly miserable alright but honestly that's infrequent even living the West. Sure, we get a fair bit of rain but the days its really torrential aren't as often as you might expect, I think we have to just embrace it really

TFBubendorfer · 02-10-2020 2:03pm

There's no point in Gore Tex shoes IMHO. You still get water into the shoe trickling in via your ankles and since they are water proof they won't drain.

Your feet will end up at least as wet.

crisco10 · 02-10-2020 2:04pm

Another one for the same setup in winter and summer. It really isn't as consistently wet as people think. And most of the time, you will only be outside for less than hour and changing as soon as you get home.

I would say having running specific socks is helpful (even if Aldi/Lidl versions) as they don't get as "sodden" as normal socks when they get wet. Far less squelch. But not specifically water proof or winter ones....

wersal gummage · 02-10-2020 4:58pm

Wow, thanks for such a great response! Clear consensus to just leave it be as present, which I'll do. Much obliged, thanks again. Wasn't even looking at the gore tex or trail type stuff, but noticed asics do a "winterized" version of some runners which seems to be slightly warmer and water resistant, but quite happy to instead buy a few nice bottles of wine with that money!

FierceMild · 11-10-2020 9:58pm

Hey guys, with some great second opinions that I received here I managed to set the target of, and achieve, a sub 3:30 marathon time trial today. So big thanks to TFBubendorfer, Adrian522 and Slow Runner for their input.

I've just a quick question: When I was digging hard in the last 6km of the race I found that I had some kind of heart palpitations when I was pushing the pace. My heart rate was very much nearing my highest recorded max at these times but I've reached that level in 5ks or when I've been accidentally dehydrated/running in severe heat but in this instance the sensation was totally novel in that it was quite uncomfortable and prompted me to slow the pace a fraction as it literally felt that my heart was straining.

I'm just wondering if this is normal when you're pushing in the latter stages of a marathon? Like, is it normal to have a literal chest/heart discomfort when you're digging really hard in the latter stages of a marathon?

Again, thanks!

Ceepo · 11-10-2020 10:55pm

FierceMild wrote: »

Hey guys, with some great second opinions that I received here I managed to set the target of, and achieve, a sub 3:30 marathon time trial today. So big thanks to TFBubendorfer, Adrian522 and Slow Runner for their input.

I've just a quick question: When I was digging hard in the last 6km of the race I found that I had some kind of heart palpitations when I was pushing the pace. My heart rate was very much nearing my highest recorded max at these times but I've reached that level in 5ks or when I've been accidentally dehydrated/running in severe heat but in this instance the sensation was totally novel in that it was quite uncomfortable and prompted me to slow the pace a fraction as it literally felt that my heart was straining.

I'm just wondering if this is normal when you're pushing in the latter stages of a marathon? Like, is it normal to have a literal chest/heart discomfort when you're digging really hard in the latter stages of a marathon?

Again, thanks!

While i can't answer the question around marathon specific as I've e never ran a stand alone marathon, but have done countless races that i would have pushed my limits to the max. Ive never experience symptoms like you described.

Others might have a different view but id advise you to see the Dr if only for check up.

Remember there is a difference between health and fitness.

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