Mother & baby home, Cork: only 64 of 900-plus baby graves found

JupiterKid · 18-04-2019 4:58pm

This is just so disgusting, sad and sickening. Can the reputation of the church and the religious order actually sink any lower? And in case I'm accused of church bashing, the State was complicit too.

And Bessborough is just one of a number of Mother and baby prisons/hellholes/institutions. There are many more where records were either not properly kept and or were conveniently "misplaced." There are probably the undocumented and unmarked remains of thousands of dead infants and toddlers all across the State.

Sickening...

18-04-2019 5:02pm

I'm not Irish and my knowledge of the homes is pretty basic, so forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is it possible that some number of those babies did not in fact die, but were given up/sold for adoption and that no records exist because it was easier to declare a death than it was to declare the money received?

18-04-2019 5:04pm

Silentcorner wrote: »

It should be remembered we locked up way more innocent men in institutions around the country known locally as lunatic facilities, most were perfectly innocent albeit challenged individuals who spent their lives in horrendous circumstances....its funny how we never really talk about those men and women...these were not church run institutions, they were run by the Department of Health....it is shameful these people will continue to be forgotten.

The move to so-called Community Care in psychiatry has been a disaster in every way except for having saved the Exchequer an absolute fortune.

It's quite ironic that there was once a time in this country when we had no shortage of well-staffed psychiatric clinics, with healthcare measures as well-developed as they were anywhere else at the time. I'm sure in some cases there were bad practices, but we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and we now not only have a mental health service that has been creaking for very many years.

Of course, we weren't the only country in the world to 'decentralise' mental health into the community - other countries did that too, for reasons that were more to do with finance than medicine.

If we admitted too many people to psychiatric institutions in the past, the swing has gone too far in the other direction.

Irexit · 18-04-2019 5:05pm

Funny how people get all worked up about the Catholic church allegedly killing babies yet have no problem with abortion.

18-04-2019 5:09pm

Irexit wrote: »

Funny how people get all worked up about the Catholic church allegedly killing babies yet have no problem with abortion.

Funny how people get all worked up about abortion yet have no problem with nuns allegedly killing babies.

18-04-2019 5:21pm

Similar to prostitution, there has always been infanticide in society. Nowadays it's abortion but back then it was foundling hospitals and in Ireland, mother and baby homes.

I had the misfortune to be taught at primary level by nuns and most of them were pure evil. It wasn't surprising to me AT ALL when this came out.

The enthusiasm with which some people in this country approach abortion even in later stages of pregnancy and how they spoke about fetuses as non human was frankly shocking to me. Sure there is an argument to be made at 12 weeks but later .... emmm that's a baby.

Humans are capable of great cruelty when they are given the excuse of an ideology - and most people will accept horrendous things as normal as long as everyone else does it. Back then it was catholicism; now it is progressivism.

18-04-2019 5:23pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Funny how people get all worked up about abortion yet have no problem with nuns allegedly killing babies.

You can make that argument in reverse too. EDIT someone already has.

18-04-2019 5:32pm

Where were the families in all this? They are at least as equal as the Church in the blame stakes. Houses have been built on some of the properties. How many bodies were uncovered?

We live in different times. The vast majority of those responsible are no longer living.

Irexit · 18-04-2019 8:54pm

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but why are people who campaigned to legalise abortion now suddenly concerned about dead babies ?

It's total double standards.

kneemos · 18-04-2019 8:59pm

Irexit wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but why are people who campaigned to legalise abortion now suddenly concerned about dead babies ?

It's total double standards.

Cos the unborn aren't babies. If they were they'd be arrested for murder.

Irexit · 18-04-2019 9:12pm

Not babies ? they must be animals then.

BBFAN · 18-04-2019 9:30pm

Personally I don't believe in consecrated grounds etc. and I'm not really bothered about where anyone is buried because I believe when you're gone you're body is just a shell so these stories have never really struck a cord with me. UNTIL TODAY.

I heard a story of one woman who woke up after a particularly difficult birth to be told that she had an angel in heaven. She always believed her baby to be buried on the grounds and in fact a nun actually showed her where her baby was buried so the last 45 years she has returned there every year to mourn her baby.

Now she doesn't know where in fact her baby is buried or indeed IF it is buried.

Maybe that child is alive, now she doesn't know and neither do we.

Heartbreaking. I can't even begin to imagine her pain.

BBFAN · 18-04-2019 9:32pm

Irexit wrote: »

Not babies ? they must be animals then.

Yeah, nobody is biting, so off with you.

Irexit · 18-04-2019 9:33pm

kneemos wrote: »

Cos the unborn aren't babies. If they were they'd be arrested for murder.

Up until last year you could of be been arrested for murder for killing an unborn baby.

18-04-2019 9:34pm

RTÉ's Prime Time is going to cover this tonight. It's starting in a few minutes.

eviltwin · 18-04-2019 9:35pm

Irexit wrote: »

Up until last year you could of be been arrested for murder for killing an unborn baby.

Bore off will ya?

Bannasidhe · 18-04-2019 9:37pm

Zorya wrote: »

A good friend of mine from another country who is a scholarly Catholic notes that these mother and baby homes, the Magdalene launderies, etc were a peculiarly Irish phenomenon.

I'm afraid your scholarly friend isn't correct. The Magdelene Laundries had their origins in the Magdalen Hospital for the Reception of Penitent Prostitutes opened in London in 1758 - the women there did 'crafts' to earn money and visitors were able to visit the facility 'entertainment'. By the late 1800 there were hundred of such places in England and Wales. In the 19th Century Charles Dickens and others set up a 'rival' home which aimed to prepare women for re-entry into society or emigration to the colonies.

They also existed across the U.S., Canada, Australia, and even Sweden.

Some Catholic, some Protestant.

The first one in Ireland was Church of Ireland and set up in 1756 in Dublin. The Magdalen Asylum for Penitent Females and that was a laundry.

The unique thing about Ireland is that they continued well into the late 20th century, were in the control of religious orders (in most countries they were founded by wealthy philanthropists and had their own board of trustees) but founded by the state, and the gobsmaking lack of any oversight or regulation.

That typical Irish 'solution' of public/private partnership where the 'public' (ie gov) just pays out the money and abdicates all responsibility and the 'private' (religious orders in this case) were all about maximizing income, spinning public PR, and ensuring that no-one one knew what was actually going on.

strandroad · 18-04-2019 9:37pm

Candie wrote: »

I'm not Irish and my knowledge of the homes is pretty basic, so forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is it possible that some number of those babies did not in fact die, but were given up/sold for adoption and that no records exist because it was easier to declare a death than it was to declare the money received?

I doubt we will ever know. Such adoptions were not secret and I'm not sure if there was any advantage in masking them as deaths (it's not like these nuns were under any scrutiny at the time) but I don't think it can be excluded.

Bannasidhe · 18-04-2019 9:45pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Or the men in society were told by the women in their lives to stay out of woman's business.

From 1964 The Guardianship of Children Act stated the mother was the sole legal guardian of an illegitimate child. This made it easier to take the child 'into care' as it could be declared the very fact that an unmarried woman got pregnant made her 'unfit' to be a mother.

I assure you - no woman was involved in this piece of legislation. Ireland did not have any women in cabinet positions in 1964. In fact we didn't have any women in cabinet positions between Constance Markievicz left govt in 1922 and Maire Geoghan-Quinn being made Minister for The Gaelteacht in 1979.

So you can stop blaming the victims yeah.

18-04-2019 9:55pm

Prime Time is focusing on Seanross Abbey in Roscrea - i.e. This is yet another mother and baby home from the Cork one in the op. It was run by the same order of nuns, however, as was another home in Castlepollard. 998 dead children discovered by Rita O'Reilly on RTÉ Investigates. This is a deathtoll four times higher than the nuns admitted. 3/4 of all babies recorded dead in the area over that period were in Seanross.

5252 births in Seanross- 998 dead or almost 1 in 5 babies born there died. Jesus. Most of them died within months - over 95% died before the age of 1.

This is shocking stuff that everybody should be watching. We need an army of professional historians to stop studying wafflers/politics and war and get into this extraordinary social history.

RTÉ Player On Now

Reviews and Books Galore · 18-04-2019 9:58pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

.

So you can stop blaming the victims yeah.

Please quote where I blamed the women who were put into the Magdelene laundries. I blame the nuns who were cruel to women, but that's about it.

SEPT 23 1989 · 18-04-2019 9:59pm

We need a team of outside professionals who investigated crime scenes from Yugoslavia in the 90's

And these are crime scenes

strandroad · 18-04-2019 9:59pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Prime Time is focusing on Seanross Abbey in Roscrea - i.e. This is yet another mother and baby home from the Cork one in the op. It was run by the same order of nuns, however, as was another home in Castlepollard. 998 dead children discovered by Rita O'Reilly on RTÉ Investigates. This is a deathtoll four times higher than the nuns admitted. 3/4 of all babies recorded dead in the area over that period were in Seanross.

5252 births in Seanross- 998 dead or almost 1 in 5 babies born there died. Jesus. Most of them died within months - over 95% died before the age of 1.

Many of these nuns are still alive and well. 1998 was mentioned in the Bessborough case, barely 30 years ago.

Mrs OBumble · 18-04-2019 10:19pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

. Tbh, this was seen as women's business and I don't think men had that much to do with it.

Women made themselves pregnant? Yeah, sure they did.

Bannasidhe · 18-04-2019 10:29pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Or the men in society were told by the women in their lives to stay out of woman's business.

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Please quote where I blamed the women who were put into the Magdelene laundries. I blame the nuns who were cruel to women, but that's about it.

You are absolving men for not acting by laying the blame at the feet of women.

You are talking about a society where men could legally rape their wives. (1990 legislation introduced to say men can, in fact, commit the crime of rape on their wives)
Where married women's PPNS number was their husband's with a 'w' at the end. (finally stopped completely in 1991= 83,601 women still do not have their own PPNS number).
Where women in good pensionable public jobs had to leave when they got married(1936-1973).
Where women had no representation around the cabinet table (no women between 1922 and 1979).
Where a man could literally sell or mortgage the family home not only against his wife's wishes - he didn't even have to tell her he had done so (legislation in 1976 gave women protection).
No contraception (available in 1979 with a prescription, not freely available until 1985).
Women could be turned down for a job because they were women. (1977 discrimination ended in some job/1998 discrimination on the basis of gender outlawed)

I could give many many more examples of how utterly powerless and unrepresented women were in Irish society. And that's just as far as the State was concerned. It doesn't even begin to address how that other powerful pillar of Irish society, The Roman Catholic Church, viewed and treated women.

Men were very much involved in women's business - they controlled women's lives, punished them if they got pregnant outside marriage, trapped them in marriage (yes - men were trapped too but it was a hell of a lot easier for them to walk away and disappear), refused them security in their own home, said their husband had the right to rape them, denied them employment and an independent income, and - as 83,000 women are finding out - denied them a pension as they don't have the right kind of 'stamps' due to not having their own PPNS numbers.

^^^ that is the Ireland that made the Magdelene Laundries possible and it was a man's Ireland.

JupiterKid · 18-04-2019 10:31pm

I think, in the fullness of time, when the 20th century history of Ireland is written with a degree of real objectivity, the deeply unethical and unhealthy alliance between the State and the church in administering social and educational services and how it abused the most vulnerable in Irish society at the time - women and children - in the cruelest manner possible will be seen as one of the greatest failures and black marks on Irish society.

There can be very little doubt about that. The degree of infant deaths and cover up at mother and baby institutions (I could not bring myself to call these places “homes” in any sense of the word) is a horrific vista.

Bannasidhe · 18-04-2019 10:36pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

I think, in the fullness of time, when the 20th century history of Ireland is written with a degree of real objectivity, the deeply unethical and unhealthy alliance between the State and the church in administering social and educational services and how it abused the most vulnerable in Irish society at the time - women and children - in the cruelest manner possible will be seen as one of the greatest failures and black marks on Irish society.

There can be very little doubt about that. The degree of infant deaths and cover up at mother and baby institutions (I could not bring myself to call these places “homes” in any sense of the word) is a horrific vista.

Today is actually the 70th Anniversary of the Declaration of the Republic of Ireland - and as far as the rights of Irish women are concerned it took entry into the E.U. before any form of protection and equality was achieved.

patsy_mccabe · 18-04-2019 10:37pm

There is a Cillín on my cousins farm. It's right across the road from our own farm and it's where my grandfather was born and raised. From what I gather, there were young unbaptised children buried there up to famine times.
I've always known about it but recently I asked my cousin, who is in his late 80's, as to where it was exactly. He pointed to a small mound near the farm yard. There are no gravestones or markers of any sort.

His grandson was telling me he won't let them park any machinery on it. Incredible to think he shows more respect to the dead buried there than our so called clergy did at the time.

Info on Cilliní (plural);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cill%C3%ADn

Reviews and Books Galore · 18-04-2019 10:42pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Women made themselves pregnant? Yeah, sure they did.

Having sex is perfectly normal. The problem is how the women were treated afterwards. I would say the man should have married the woman, but I am unsure if that would have solved anything.

Eh, maybe I'm being rude talking about this in such a blunt way. It is something quite bad that happened and I shouldnt be dragging any gender stuff into it.

Bannasidhe · 18-04-2019 11:00pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Having sex is perfectly normal. The problem is how the women were treated afterwards. I would say the man should have married the woman, but I am unsure if that would have solved anything.

Eh, maybe I'm being rude talking about this in such a blunt way. It is something quite bad that happened and I shouldnt be dragging any gender stuff into it.

What if the man was already married?
What if the man was related to her?
What if she was raped?

What if she just didn't want to marry that particular man?

It was institutionalized 'slut shaming' with 'slut' being any woman who was unmarried and pregnant regardless of circumstances. And her 'shame/punishment' could last for life.

Men also suffered -it was nearly impossible for a widower to be 'allowed' to raise his children. Such children would be taken into 'care' - which meant an industrial school and all the horrors they contained. The general belief being that men just weren't capable to parent alone. Which we all know is B.S

The sad but true thing is that back in the 70s/80s the coaches to London used to carry women who were pregnant and didn't want to be, some would have terminations, others would give the child up for adoption - but there were also women who were pregnant and wanted to keep their child after it was born but were they were unmarried. They fled so they could raise their child far away from the Bessboroughs and Castle Pollards.

We exported both. The former would go back 'home' and keep their abortion/adoption secret, the latter would stay in the UK and often keep the existence of their child secret or just' disappear'.

So many secrets ripping families apart.

Silentcorner · 18-04-2019 11:04pm

There is no getting away with the attitudes the church and the state had toward women...it was expected in some churches, that a woman who had recently given birth, were given a separate cleansing type sermon before they were allowed to rejoin the flock...if we have learned anything at all we should beware of radicals in all forms.

18-04-2019 11:10pm

In many of these cases it was girls frorn the "better" families that got pregnant by their boyfriend who wasnt good enough for the family. The poorer families would be shamed for having their babies out of wedlock and "raising bastards"

My dad often tells the story of meeting one such man in England back in the 60s - he was heartbroken. He never stood a chance to do anything as the whole parish, the clergy and the law was on the side of the girls family shipping her off to quietly have the baby and have it adopted. One day she was gone and no one would tell him anything.

Come to think of it I would say this still happens but nowadays it's an abortion instead of mother and baby homes. Definitely the lesser of two evils.

Daisy78 · 18-04-2019 11:15pm

Irexit wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but why are people who campaigned to legalise abortion now suddenly concerned about dead babies ?

It's total double standards.

It's not just dead babies though is it? It's the women who suffered in these institutions and children adopted out to other families, sometimes abroad who spent a lifetime trying to find out who they are. The mother of a close friend of mine was in one of these places and had children taken from her. She left having lost two children, not being able to read or write and went through a lot of hardship in life as a result of not having a proper education. The consequences were much more far reaching than unaccounted for children. Yes the nuns took these women in when their families walked away but the brutal regime they imposed on these women can't be so easily excused, particularly when charity was supposed to be one of their guiding principles.

eviltwin · 18-04-2019 11:41pm

Daisy78 wrote: »

It's not just dead babies though is it? It's the women who suffered in these institutions and children adopted out to other families, sometimes abroad who spent a lifetime trying to find out who they are. The mother of a close friend of mine was in one of these places and had children taken from her. She left having lost two children, not being able to read or write and went through a lot of hardship in life as a result of not having a proper education. The consequences were much more far reaching than unaccounted for children. Yes the nuns took these women in when their families walked away but the brutal regime they imposed on these women can't be so easily excused, particularly when charity was supposed to be one of their guiding principles.

Pro lifers don't care about the women.

Every one of these deaths is a tragedy but we can't forget each of these children had a mother who was treated appallingly. Some of those women are still alive and they deserve to know what became of their babies

uck51js9zml2yt · 18-04-2019 11:52pm

kneemos wrote: »

Cos the unborn aren't babies. If they were they'd be arrested for murder.

They dehumanised these women and children as well. Look what that gave us....

Bannasidhe · 18-04-2019 11:56pm

Fisher Millions Twilight wrote: »

They dehumanised these women and children as well. Look what that gave us....

What 'they' did was not allow women control over there own lives or bodies.
Women were denied the ability to choose for themselves.

'they' are still trying...

kneemos · 19-04-2019 12:43am

Irexit wrote: »

Up until last year you could of be been arrested for murder for killing an unborn baby.

Performing an abortion outside strict criteria,no mention of killing anything.Loads of women had abortions and weren't extradited back to Ireland.

whisky_galore · 19-04-2019 1:13am

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

We need a team of outside professionals who investigated crime scenes from Yugoslavia in the 90's

And these are crime scenes

No one will ever be charged. They still hunt Nazis in their 90s but we can't go after anyone still living in the religious orders because of the deal done with govt and the "ah shur God luv dem" attitude here.

janfebmar · 19-04-2019 12:27pm

Some things never change

Igotadose · 19-04-2019 12:37pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It was institutionalized 'slut shaming' with 'slut' being any woman who was unmarried and pregnant regardless of circumstances. And her 'shame/punishment' could last for life.

Spoke with a woman couple weeks back who is in her 50's with several children. She described the 'churching' practice done by the RCC in Ireland in what I think was the '80's and '90s. Apparently pregnant married women had to go through some sort of ritual repenting for having had sex.

She didn't, and the local priest told her her child couldn't be baptized in her church. Some other priest overheard this, and outside the church, offered to baptize her child on the steps of the church. She told him to feck off and never stepped foot in the church again (had several other children subsequent to that one.) Not having her children baptized impacted which schools they could attend, too, but she knew then she wasn't going to subject them to Catholic dogma.

So, punishing women for having sex, even within the 'holy bonds of matrimony' is an obsession in the RCC. I don't know if 'churching' still goes on, but other women of the same age as the one describing it to me said the same. Nasty, huh? RCC just loves subjugating women, imagine having gone through 'churching' and then trying to celebrate the birth of the child, with that niggling thought in the back of your mind that the joy of having had the child was based on doing something wrong. No wonder people leave the Church. Hopefully the RCC will die out in our lifetimes, or at least be out of any major role in Ireland's social order or government.

19-04-2019 1:57pm

Igotadose wrote: »

Spoke with a woman couple weeks back who is in her 50's with several children. She described the 'churching' practice done by the RCC in Ireland in what I think was the '80's and '90s. Apparently pregnant married women had to go through some sort of ritual repenting for having had sex.

She didn't, and the local priest told her her child couldn't be baptized in her church. Some other priest overheard this, and outside the church, offered to baptize her child on the steps of the church. She told him to feck off and never stepped foot in the church again (had several other children subsequent to that one.) Not having her children baptized impacted which schools they could attend, too, but she knew then she wasn't going to subject them to Catholic dogma.

So, punishing women for having sex, even within the 'holy bonds of matrimony' is an obsession in the RCC. I don't know if 'churching' still goes on, but other women of the same age as the one describing it to me said the same. Nasty, huh? RCC just loves subjugating women, imagine having gone through 'churching' and then trying to celebrate the birth of the child, with that niggling thought in the back of your mind that the joy of having had the child was based on doing something wrong. No wonder people leave the Church. Hopefully the RCC will die out in our lifetimes, or at least be out of any major role in Ireland's social order or government.

The practice of “Churching” ended in the 1970’s.

Huntergonzo · 19-04-2019 2:59pm

https://www.irishcatholic.com/tuam-babies-not-buried-in-septic-tank-report-confirms/

Interesting article in the Irish Catholic.

Basically = 'yes yes yes, all those babies died at a catholic institution (basically a prison/slave labor camp for 'sinful' mothers and their undesirable offspring), but more importantly we didn't bury them in a spetic tank, told ya!'

All the while on the same page advertising an event called 'The future is pro-life'.

Catlicks really are the gift that keeps giving.

janfebmar · 19-04-2019 7:31pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

I'd be surprised to hear this if the Nazis did it.

To hear that it was caused by people of god in a "Catholic" and neutral country makes that little bit more horrifying to me.

I've said it before but there were a couple of horses put down at the cheltenham and there was public outrage.

Well said. Why has there not been a bigger outcry?

JupiterKid · 19-04-2019 8:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The practice of “Churching” ended in the 1970’s.

One might have thought so, that it was a practice Vactican II put an end to, but there were apparently some parishes where “churching” was still practiced well into the 1980s.

janfebmar · 20-04-2019 7:32pm

orourkeda1977 wrote: »

If this was a dogs home or a stable, there would be a raft of protesters outside the door.

Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

Bannasidhe · 20-04-2019 9:03pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

There have often been protests outside Bessborough.
There was also a 'shrine' of teddy bears but they were removed.

21-04-2019 9:28am

janfebmar wrote: »

Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

Protest at what exactly? The Church or the unfortunate women’s families who abandoned them? We live in different times now. What good do you expect to come from protests? The families didn’t want the babies when they lived so why the outrage now?

whisky_galore · 21-04-2019 9:49am

janfebmar wrote: »

Too true. Are people afraid to protest I wonder?

You can protest by not playing the RCC's little game, not going to Mass, not making contributions of any kind, not putting kids through the sham of religious ceremonies but it seems people are still putting money into the church's grubby hands to make the industry worthwhile.

Daisy78 · 21-04-2019 12:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Protest at what exactly? The Church or the unfortunate women’s families who abandoned them? We live in different times now. What good do you expect to come from protests? The families didn’t want the babies when they lived so why the outrage now?

Your missing the point. It’s the mistreatment of women and children in these institutions that’s the issue here. You stop short of criticising the cruelty that these individuals were subjected to. You think because this happened back thirty, forty years ago the church should be absolved of their actions? Please.

Kind words, generosity of spirit, charity are not modern day inventions or standards. To say that we are subjecting the religious order to higher modern day standards is simply untrue. Blessed are the children applied only to legitimate offspring it would seem.

kneemos · 21-04-2019 1:07pm

Daisy78 wrote: »

Your missing the point. It’s the mistreatment of women and children in these institutions that’s the issue here. You stop short of criticising the cruelty that these individuals were subjected to. You think because this happened back thirty, forty years ago the church should be absolved of their actions? Please.

Kind words, generosity of spirit, charity are not modern day inventions or standards. To say that we are subjecting the religious order to higher modern day standards is simply untrue. Blessed are the children applied only to legitimate offspring it would seem.

They we're refused stitches after childbirth,pain relief,and not even allowed to moan during delivery.
Torture chamber level of barbarism.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/survivor-gardai-should-question-nuns-918963.html

Mother & baby home, Cork: only 64 of 900-plus baby graves found

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