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Mother & baby home, Cork: only 64 of 900-plus baby graves found

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24

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    Perhaps blame the nuns who brutalized the women and the various women who brought them to the homes. Tbh, this was seen as women's business and I don't think men had that much to do with it.

    Except maybe that the men who ruled society decided it was women's business?

    You can be sure plenty of men in Irish governments and in the Irish civil service were signing off on the cheques which funded this inhumanity. Damned sure. Blind eyes turned everywhere by people in power because, well, these women weren't quite as valuable as the daughters of the local gp or local big farmer, and to say otherwise could lose you power, as the fate of Noel Browne showed.


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    #33
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    This isn't that long ago guys. I still have receipts in our house from the laundries... when you ask older people, they say this was seen as supporting a charity.

    This was a service society wanted at the time.

    There was no social welfare. You were fairly doomed to destitution if you had a child out of marriage and couldn't support yourself. Women "in trouble" were sent to have this crisis in their life resolved. They came out with some kind of economically viable skill (taught to clean houses and laundry basically), and the baby was adopted. This was seen as Win win at the time.


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    #34
    Reviews and Books Galore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Reviews and Books Galore


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Except maybe that the men who ruled society decided it was women's business?

    You can be sure plenty of men in Irish governments and in the Irish civil service were signing off on the cheques which funded this inhumanity. Damned sure. Blind eyes turned everywhere by people in power because, well, these women weren't quite as valuable as the daughters of the local gp or local big farmer, and to say otherwise could lose you power, as the fate of Noel Browne showed.

    Or the men in society were told by the women in their lives to stay out of woman's business.


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    #35
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    pwurple wrote: »
    This isn't that long ago guys. I still have receipts in our house from the laundries... when you ask older people, they say this was seen as supporting a charity.

    This was a service society wanted at the time. .

    Many of the women sent to the laundries were girls, not mothers, and were sent due to the economic desires of their parents - one less mouth to feed.

    They were not compensated, and the church raised ton of money on their efforts, which the survivors are now owed, with interest.

    Who sent them? Their parents. Why? Because 1) having more children than you could manage was advocated by the RCC. It was good business for them, with the added sweetener of extra victims for pedophile priests 2) Some compensation to the parents was either explicitly given, or implied. "Send little Mary to the laundry and your eldest Colm will be admitted to school without payment." This is at present supposition on my part, but talking with neighbors here in West Kerry has confirmed this behavior.

    Work in the laundry was abusive - high temps, harsh chemicals. The nuns carefully presented the girls as being educated and doing well in their care, on the rare occasions the parents visited, but the rest of the time, there was mandatory silence at work, abusive work schedules and basically imprisonment.

    The laundries were a cash-cow for the church. Their victims are overdue compensation.


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    #36
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,261 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    who sent these women to the nuns?

    As far as I know, in almost all cases, it was the family that sent these women to the Nuns.


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    #37
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,434 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Rhys Essien wrote: »
    A lad phoned up a radio station in Cork about two years ago. He said he worked for a funeral home a few decades ago. Every so often he was told to call to Bessborough. A nun would come to the door with a dead child wrapped up and tell him to put it down the end of a coffin of someone due to be buried.

    The man was still traumatized from it.

    Evil f*ckers so they were.
    I think I heard the same story at one point, with the twist tacked on at the end that it was the only way for the baby to be buried on consecrated ground. I'd take a larg pinch of salt with both versions tbh.


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    #38
    Zorya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Zorya


    Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »
    Or the men in society were told by the women in their lives to stay out of woman's business.

    I would bet that a fair number of the babies conceived 'illegitimately' were the product of incest, another family disease to which the Irish seem peculiarly vulnerable. My theory is based on present day evidence that up to 20% of people attending Rape Crises Centres are there because of incest. Related strongly to alcohol issues, another ethnic susceptibility.


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    #39
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,261 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Many of the women sent to the laundries were girls, not mothers, and were sent due to the economic desires of their parents - one less mouth to feed.

    They were not compensated, and the church raised ton of money on their efforts, which the survivors are now owed, with interest.

    Who sent them? Their parents. Why? Because 1) having more children than you could manage was advocated by the RCC. It was good business for them, with the added sweetener of extra victims for pedophile priests 2) Some compensation to the parents was either explicitly given, or implied. "Send little Mary to the laundry and your eldest Colm will be admitted to school without payment." This is at present supposition on my part, but talking with neighbors here in West Kerry has confirmed this behavior.

    Work in the laundry was abusive - high temps, harsh chemicals. The nuns carefully presented the girls as being educated and doing well in their care, on the rare occasions the parents visited, but the rest of the time, there was mandatory silence at work, abusive work schedules and basically imprisonment.

    The laundries were a cash-cow for the church. Their victims are overdue compensation.

    You nicely absolved parents there, do you really think they were that naive? If it was all about just having one less mouth to feed then it would've been poor girls that went in, not poor single mothers as it generally was. These women were seen as a problem, to be straightened out by the orders. It's was not unique to single mothers either, indeed there are still those with learning disabilities living in state institutions dumped there by their families, forgotten about and never visited.

    If the women are due compensation, it's from the orders and their parents. I don't see why the state should have a liability here.


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    #40
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    You nicely absolved parents there, do you really think they were that naive? If it was all about just having one less mouth to feed then it would've been poor girls that went in, not poor single mothers as it generally was. These women were seen as a problem, to be straightened out by the orders. It's was not unique to single mothers either, indeed there are still those with learning disabilities living in state institutions dumped there by their families, forgotten about and never visited.

    If the women are due compensation, it's from the orders and their parents. I don't see why the state should have a liability here.

    Oops. Absolutely didn't mean to resolve their parents - and all the restitution should come from the Church; getting between parents and children is probably a lost cause as I doubt many of the parents who sent their daughters to the Laundries are still around.

    But we agree both poor single mothers and young girls who weren't parents were sent in. All about the money at the end of the day.


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    #41
    orourkeda1977
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭orourkeda1977


    I'd be surprised to hear this if the Nazis did it.

    To hear that it was caused by people of god in a "Catholic" and neutral country makes that little bit more horrifying to me.

    I've said it before but there were a couple of horses put down at the cheltenham and there was public outrage.


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    #42
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,553 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    who sent these women to the nuns?

    The easy answer is their families.

    However very often the family were under sustained and significant pressure from the local clergy to ensure the embarrassing situation was rectified and kept schtum.

    This was an Ireland where a boycott called by the church could cripple someone financially.
    Where ones standing in the community was dictated and controlled by the moral authority of the pulpit.

    This one does strike close to home for me.
    I was born in Bessborough to young woman whose family were put under enormous pressure to erase the stain of her disgrace.
    Pressure that was led and orchestrated by a priest who went on to become a bishop!
    Reward no doubt for his extreme Catholic, yet distinctly unchristian behaviour.

    I was lucky enough to have a Grandfather that bucked societal norms.
    To have gone home with my family, rather than be now wondering who the are or their wondering if I'm adopted, alive or dead!

    The church and it's actions towards Ireland need to be reviewed!
    Granted that review should be holistic and take into account their work in Medicine and Education and so on...
    But if we live in a society where the deliberate and sustained mistreatment of the vulnerable is acceptable as long as it's ok for the government to save a few quid on the above...
    I would weep for our humanity!

    This isn't akin to slave reparations or colonial shame!

    Many of those who are most damaged are still alive, as are many of those who inflicted the harm in the 1st place!

    If "following orders" was not a defence in Nuremberg!
    It should not be one now! Be they "holy" or otherwise!


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    #43
    MintyMagnum
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭MintyMagnum


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    As far as I know, in almost all cases, it was the family that sent these women to the Nuns.

    Under pressure from society/the clergy. Remember Archbishop McQuaid's power to derail Dr Browne's mother & baby healthcare plans.


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    #44
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,264 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    kneemos wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with Christianity if if isn't wrapped in hatred for everything not like us.


    Not sure there is a vacuum anyway. People believe or not it makes no odds to their daily lives.

    It definitely does make a difference. The level of religious belief in a society has direct impacts on how that society treats the minorities in that society. Ireland was a deeply religious country in the early 20th century when these atrocities were carried out. We heavily discriminated against women, people of other religions, homosexuals, people who were born 'outside of wedlock', atheists, young unmarried women, married women etc etc etc

    Look at the most religious places in the world today, they still have discriminatory laws preventing gay marriage, reproductive rights, and subjugating women to their husbands. Israel Falou comes from a sub-culture where religion is still a major influence and he sacrificed his career to stand up for his right to be a religious bigot. Those views are only acceptable in cultures and societies where religion is still a dominant cultural force.

    Secular democracies aren't perfect, but when you strip away the religious dogma, you free up people to express themselves to be who they feel they truly are, and you allow them to see what was always morally wrong for what it is, without the cloak of religious judgement clouding your own view of what is right and wrong.

    Where there are right wing elements pushing back against these freedoms, they are very often rooted in the remaining religious believers pushing back against liberalism.

    A very small percentage of atheists have replaced organised religion with a different kind of dogmatic political philosophy such as free market libertarianism or racial supremacism or ultra-nationalism. This is what happens when the dogmatic elements of religious belief are transposed to another dogmatic philosophy where either race, nation or free markets are elevated to almost god like status and worshipped as the solution to all of their problems.


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    #45
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,870 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Zorya wrote: »
    Talk even of having to bring in non-national archaeologists because it would be so provoking of many Irish, and naturally so.

    Why is that even a problem?

    It was our own kind put them there after all.


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    #46
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I take it people are going to be arrested over this?


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    #47
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,261 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I take it people are going to be arrested over this?

    Maybe, but presumably most of the people responsible for this are dead.


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    #48
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,412 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I take it people are going to be arrested over this?

    Nothing to arrest anybody over so far.


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    #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    pwurple wrote: »
    I'm a local. Bessboro and the other convents here all gradually sold their land for development. My house is built on old convent grounds for example. It's been well and truly disturbed ground since.

    How many bodies were found?


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    #50
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,710 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    MintyMagnum wrote: »
    Under pressure from society/the clergy. Remember Archbishop McQuaid's power to derail Dr Browne's mother & baby healthcare plans.

    The greatest leader we never had.


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    #51
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Lets be honest, we as a people have failed to cope with the challenges that a percentage of our population (like any population) will always present...we are struggling today evidently, take a walk down the main street of our largest city any day of the week to see for yourself.

    It should be remembered we locked up way more innocent men in institutions around the country known locally as lunatic facilities, most were perfectly innocent albeit challenged individuals who spent their lives in horrendous circumstances....its funny how we never really talk about those men and women...these were not church run institutions, they were run by the Department of Health....it is shameful these people will continue to be forgotten.

    Until we accept our failures as a society, and not just point the blame at whatever entity makes us feel better, we will continue to struggle with our challenges.


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    #52
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,626 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    This is just so disgusting, sad and sickening. Can the reputation of the church and the religious order actually sink any lower? And in case I'm accused of church bashing, the State was complicit too.

    And Bessborough is just one of a number of Mother and baby prisons/hellholes/institutions. There are many more where records were either not properly kept and or were conveniently "misplaced." There are probably the undocumented and unmarked remains of thousands of dead infants and toddlers all across the State.

    Sickening...


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    #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not Irish and my knowledge of the homes is pretty basic, so forgive me if this is an ignorant question. Is it possible that some number of those babies did not in fact die, but were given up/sold for adoption and that no records exist because it was easier to declare a death than it was to declare the money received?


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    #54
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    It should be remembered we locked up way more innocent men in institutions around the country known locally as lunatic facilities, most were perfectly innocent albeit challenged individuals who spent their lives in horrendous circumstances....its funny how we never really talk about those men and women...these were not church run institutions, they were run by the Department of Health....it is shameful these people will continue to be forgotten.
    The move to so-called Community Care in psychiatry has been a disaster in every way except for having saved the Exchequer an absolute fortune.

    It's quite ironic that there was once a time in this country when we had no shortage of well-staffed psychiatric clinics, with healthcare measures as well-developed as they were anywhere else at the time. I'm sure in some cases there were bad practices, but we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater, and we now not only have a mental health service that has been creaking for very many years.

    Of course, we weren't the only country in the world to 'decentralise' mental health into the community - other countries did that too, for reasons that were more to do with finance than medicine.

    If we admitted too many people to psychiatric institutions in the past, the swing has gone too far in the other direction.


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    #55
    Irexit
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 35 ✭Irexit


    Funny how people get all worked up about the Catholic church allegedly killing babies yet have no problem with abortion.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Irexit wrote: »
    Funny how people get all worked up about the Catholic church allegedly killing babies yet have no problem with abortion.
    Funny how people get all worked up about abortion yet have no problem with nuns allegedly killing babies.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Similar to prostitution, there has always been infanticide in society. Nowadays it's abortion but back then it was foundling hospitals and in Ireland, mother and baby homes.

    I had the misfortune to be taught at primary level by nuns and most of them were pure evil. It wasn't surprising to me AT ALL when this came out.

    The enthusiasm with which some people in this country approach abortion even in later stages of pregnancy and how they spoke about fetuses as non human was frankly shocking to me. Sure there is an argument to be made at 12 weeks but later .... emmm that's a baby.

    Humans are capable of great cruelty when they are given the excuse of an ideology - and most people will accept horrendous things as normal as long as everyone else does it. Back then it was catholicism; now it is progressivism.


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    #58
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,078 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Funny how people get all worked up about abortion yet have no problem with nuns allegedly killing babies.

    You can make that argument in reverse too. EDIT someone already has.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Where were the families in all this? They are at least as equal as the Church in the blame stakes. Houses have been built on some of the properties. How many bodies were uncovered?

    We live in different times. The vast majority of those responsible are no longer living.


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    #60
    Irexit
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 35 ✭Irexit


    I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but why are people who campaigned to legalise abortion now suddenly concerned about dead babies ?


    It's total double standards.


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    #61
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,412 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Irexit wrote: »
    I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but why are people who campaigned to legalise abortion now suddenly concerned about dead babies ?


    It's total double standards.


    Cos the unborn aren't babies. If they were they'd be arrested for murder.


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