Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Stovepipe · 10-05-2021 1:58pm

You'd probably have more effect on Russian "Bear" intrusions if you froze a few Russian bank accounts in the IFSC or withdrew a few "convenience" passports. Any "Bear" that reaches our airspace has already been monitored by Norway, Sweden, the UK and anyone with a Baltic address. I'd imagine the Russian crews have a serious gallery of photos of Gripens and F-16s already and would regard it as a serious novelty if an aircraft with an Irish roundel suddenly appeared alongside. I'd imagine the transcript of the radio interaction between the interceptor and the intreceptee would be along the lines of "Garda Patrol" ; "are you the owner of this veh-hic-le?", says Irish pilot, in his best Templemore voice. "Da, comrade. We are on routine patrol". "Well, switch on your transponder or I'll do ya for flying without consideration for other airspace users. That's 3 points and eighty euros,if you don't feck off home!"

Larbre34 · 10-05-2021 2:17pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

If you are chasing someone with a head start can do Mach 2 you will never catch them. Generally if you are intercepting them its because they are heading towards you not away from you. If they bugger off then thats what you want in the first place so job done.

US with all its resources couldn't stop 9/11 so the odds of anyone with less resources stopping the same attack is a bogus argument.

Why would they have, the first two of those airliners weren't painted as a threat until the towers were ablaze. 9/11 was a failure of intelligence, not quick reaction mod op that focused on military threats.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 2:22pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Two attacks had happened by the time NORAD realised it was a terror attack. It was only when the 3rd aircraft hit that they realised it was multiple and coordinated. By then the USAF were in the air and pilots were willing to do whatever was necessary to prevent a fourth strike. In the end, the passengers of the aircraft did their job for them.

Still it proves the point.

Dohvolle wrote: »

Much has changed in 20 years. Non responsive civilian aircraft are routinely intercepted by armed aircraft now. Indeed the crash of Helios 522 in 2005 was escorted to its impact site by the Greek Air Force. If the Flight Attendant aboard (who had a CPL) had not altered its course away from major population centres when the first engine flamed out, they would have been in a position to destroy it in the air. By then it was already in a Holding pattern on autopilot over Athens Airport.
The Greek F16 joined the aircraft 2 hours after radio contact was reported as lost.

There were shoot downs before 9/11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

The one that sticks in my head was 1983: Korean Air Lines Flight 007 which Gary Moore wrote a song about.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 2:27pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why would they have, the first two of those airliners weren't painted as a threat until the towers were ablaze. 9/11 was a failure of intelligence, not quick reaction mod op that focused on military threats.

So there no point bringing up 9/11 in terms of "interceptor's" as they are useless against that type of threat.

So its only to police very rare airspace incursions.

Larbre34 · 10-05-2021 3:21pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

So there no point bringing up 9/11 in terms of "interceptor's" as they are useless against that type of threat.

So its only to police very rare airspace incursions.

Not at all.

Global treatment of airliners has changed in the 20 years since. Failure to properly acknowledge or squawk correctly, any sort of deviation from SOP will be investigated now if possible, long before a threat is detected.

But as you mention it, all airspace incursions or failure to fly to accepted norms a should absolutely be challenged.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 4:34pm

Point being a 9/11 style attack if repeated wouldn't give you any warning exactly to avoid any air defence response.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 4:40pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

...
But as you mention it, all airspace incursions or failure to fly to accepted norms a should absolutely be challenged...

The Russians were challenged via radio they just ignored the it. You mean intercepted and then escorted out or shot down. The UK ends up shadowing them for hours. I think the last one in the uk was 5 hours.

The Russians have been doing the same with their Navy also.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2020/december/04/200412-russian-monitoring

sparky42 · 10-05-2021 4:41pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

Point being a 9/11 style attack if repeated wouldn't give you any warning exactly to avoid any air defence response.

Given the changes in operations such as the locked cabins, radio alerts for hijacking for example along with pilots now having to consider a 9/11 situation in a hijacking attempt, I’d still consider it likely that there would be more notice to ATC of such an attempt. And as mentioned QRA flights now have more ROEs for such situations as well.

sparky42 · 10-05-2021 4:46pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

The Russians were challenged via radio they just ignored the it. You mean intercepted and then escorted out or shot down. The UK ends up shadowing them for hours. I think the last one in the uk was 5 hours.

The Russians have been doing the same with their Navy also.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2020/december/04/200412-russian-monitoring

Yeah again, no that’s not going to happen by us or pretty much any sane/rational country.

Heraldoffreeent · 10-05-2021 6:33pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

The Russians were challenged via radio they just ignored the it. You mean intercepted and then escorted out or shot down. The UK ends up shadowing them for hours. I think the last one in the uk was 5 hours.

The Russians have been doing the same with their Navy also.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2020/december/04/200412-russian-monitoring

While the Russians are ignoring calls on Radio, the Typhoons are travelling beside/behind them, usually in a 2 ship formation, with transponders on.This alerts Radar and ATC, and allows ATC to route commercial traffic around or above the threat.

So, by shadowing the TU's, the RAF are abrogating the threat posed by them to commercial traffic.

This is the Air policing role that people here are suggesting the IAC would provide, along with providing a credible defence in the first instance, if things were to escalate.

Ireland could buy 200 F35's and we would still find it difficult to prevent an enemy intent on invading. However, having 16 Saab Gripen's would buy us time for allies to come to our aid on the one hand, and prevent us becoming the biggest Aircraft carrier the world has ever seen anchored off the coast of Europe on the other.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 7:04pm

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

........ and prevent us becoming the biggest Aircraft carrier the world has ever seen anchored off the coast of Europe on the other.

There is no credible threat that could land such a force on Ireland and with the ability to defend itself a long way from home and with the US, UK and Europe on its doorstep. It would make the charge of the light brigade seem same.

You're trying to sell crazy.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 7:08pm

A more realistic threat is to other resources ....

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/what-are-russian-bombers-doing-in-irish-airspace-1.4197785

Gary kk · 10-05-2021 7:14pm

Flinty997 wrote: »

There is no credible threat that could land such a force on Ireland and with the ability to defend itself a long way from home and with the US, UK and Europe on its doorstep. It would make the charge of the light brigade seem same.

You're trying to sell crazy.

You assume the US or the UK wouldn't do if they had to.
But you do have a point if we got to that stage nukes could have already landed.

Not that I believe that would happen.

Flinty997 · 10-05-2021 7:25pm

You could argue Ireland is painting a bullseye on its back being a critical part of communication infrastructure. As such it might need the protection of NATO for that reason alone.

Gary kk · 11-05-2021 10:43am

Flinty997 wrote: »

You could argue Ireland is painting a bullseye on its back being a critical part of communication infrastructure. As such it might need the protection of NATO for that reason alone.

Not really it would only take one sub to destory the transatlantic cables. Two would be better but one would work.

Flinty997 · 11-05-2021 11:10am

Gary kk wrote: »

Not really it would only take one sub to destory the transatlantic cables. Two would be better but one would work.

Just like in WWI when all the remote telegraph stations and cables were targeted I'm sure modern navies have all all those cables marked and plans in place to cut them if required. Defending against it, would be difficult even for NATO. But anti sub warfare is one of its main tasks.

Ireland not so much.

The Ryanair model of invade Europe via Ireland is a lot more fun. Lets keep going with that.

Stovepipe · 11-05-2021 12:06pm

Who said it's a Ryanair model? I'll bet the Soviet war planners probably wargamed an attack on Western Europe with Ireland as a potential gateway to launch disruptive attacks on the UK. A bomber leaving Murmansk could be over Ireland within a few hours and a couple of submarines could close the Irish Sea. If the UK had to fight a war against a Russian land invasion of Europe, whilst looking over it's shoulder at warfare in Ireland, then it's a different ballgame. If Ireland was a NATO member, it would have access to all sorts of weapons and the treasury and manpower to operate them. That's a whole different question,altogether.

banie01 · 11-05-2021 1:20pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Leonardo just released an update to this story clarifying that not only is it inaccurate, they have not yet entered into any contract with Nigeria, either for C27 or M346, stating "Nigeria is not a C27J customer".
They did confirm however:

https://sundiatapost.com/m-346fa-aircraft-italian-company-says-no-contract-with-nigeria/

The Israeli/italo contract for M346 is an interesting one too.
Basically a swap deal, Italy is funding the trainer's in return for Israeli AWACS gear and Recon satellites and I think some drone technology too.
Then Israel further contracted with Greece for a Flight Training centre there.

The move towards offsets, credits and exchanges in big military deals is growing and becoming far broader than it used to be.

Flinty997 · 11-05-2021 5:03pm

The sticking point from my interpretation, and I'm open to connection. For aircraft like the Bae Hawk and now more modern types like the M346 is that integration of radar and associated equipment is a massive rise in costs to the point at which people either cancel that capability or just upgrade to the Griphen. It's different where they are already heavily invested in a type like the Tiger II and is effecting the number of airframes they want.

M346 seems to be struggling to close deals. Maybe I'm wrong and is just the nature of light attack aircraft deals. Or aircraft deals in general.

hmmm · 11-05-2021 5:11pm

Don't mean to go off-topic, but this topic all seems a bit 1980s. The most serious Russian intrusions these days is in Cyberspace. The notpetya attacks in Ukraine were a test run for the type of industrial and infrastructural sabotage the Russians are capable of, as they simply shut down the Ukrainian power grid and wiped financial records. Their government also turns a blind eye to hacking groups who are spreading ransomware and other types of malware in the "West" with complete impunity. Advanced economies are moving to provide their various communities (healthcare, business, government) with rapid response resources that can respond in the event of a cyberattack, resources we do not have to offer.

Before we go waving roundels at aging Bears a hundred miles off the coast, I'd be putting the money into hardening our ICS infrastructure and also providing a rapid response cyber capability.

Flinty997 · 11-05-2021 7:15pm

Some ideas

https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/09/we-did-barrel-rolls-around-tu-95s-at-the-request-of-the-soviets-f-4-wso-explains-the-story-of-the-phantom-upside-down-near-bear/

zom · 13-05-2021 11:04am

hmmm wrote: »

Before we go waving roundels at aging Bears a hundred miles off the coast, I'd be putting the money into hardening our ICS infrastructure and also providing a rapid response cyber capability.

Even if so, with our labor costs and lowest defense spending in EU this woud be probably 100% outsourced to Pakistan or Nigeria anyway

thomil · 13-05-2021 7:27pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

You aren't wrong there, however, last year one of those bears spent a few hours circling above porcupine bight, off the Kerry coast, transponders off.
From its tail it trails a 5km antennae wire, permitting them to securely communicate using VLF with Russian Submarines working undersea.
Oh and also this spot is the same place where most of the telecommunications cables connecting Europe and the US are located.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russian-planes-flying-in-rings-off-kerry-linked-to-submarines-s23vs9xw9

Makes you wonder if BS-64 Podmoskovye was in the area at the same time. She's a heavily modified Delta-IV SSBN that took over underwater "research" duties from KS-411, an old Yankee class SSBN, back in the mid 2000s. Basically, these boats had their missile compartments torn out and replaced with "research" equipment, labs, additional computer capacity and a ventral docking port for a Paltus class mini-sub that can reach depths in excess of 1000 metres. Torpedo storage and fire control compartments have also been removed to facilitate the extra crew.

Check out Sub Brief's video about KS-411 on YouTube, it's fascinating and he certainly sounds like he knows his stuff.

zom · 14-05-2021 2:53pm

hmmm wrote: »

Before we go waving roundels at aging Bears a hundred miles off the coast, I'd be putting the money into hardening our ICS infrastructure and also providing a rapid response cyber capability.

As life proves again today we are too stupid to take good decisions down to the point that leads to total catastrophe. Banking, housing, HSE and many many more in future...

Larbre34 · 14-05-2021 6:57pm

zom wrote: »

As live proves again today we are too stupid to take good decisions down to the point that leads to total catastrophe. Banking, housing, HSE and many many more in future.,.

Absolutely right.

But the protection of networks and ICS goes hand in hand with the physical protection of hard infrastructure, including offshore cables, pipelines and increasingly wind turbines.

We don't commit nearlty enough resources to any of these responsibilities.

Larbre34 · 18-05-2021 7:48pm

A USAF C-17 Globemaster stopped off at Casement this morning for what the DF described as "a technicality stop as part of a crew training mission."

The flight originated in Washington State, via an Air National Guard base in Bangor, Maine and continued on to Britain after a few hours at the Don.

This follows on from yesterday, when a MH60 Seahawk off the destroyer USS Paul Ignatius operating in the the Atlantic, ferried four of their crew to Shannon to meet a flight. An IAC AW139 rendezvoused with the Seahawk and flew in formation with them "for training purposes".

Psychlops · 18-05-2021 8:59pm

C17 94-0068 C/S: SLAM69, Tactical Callsign, Pilot informed ATC he was a Longford Native, cleared down to 3,500 & took in the Cliffs of Moher & Galway Bay before headed for Longford before headed to Casement AB Baldonnel.

sparky42 · 18-05-2021 9:43pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

A USAF C-17 Globemaster stopped off at Casement this morning for what the DF described as "a technicality stop as part of a crew training mission."

The flight originated in Washington State, via an Air National Guard base in Bangor, Maine and continued on to Britain after a few hours at the Don.

This follows on from yesterday, when a MH60 Seahawk off the destroyer USS Paul Ignatius operating in the the Atlantic, ferried four of their crew to Shannon to meet a flight. An IAC AW139 rendezvoused with the Seahawk and flew in formation with them "for training purposes".

To be fair the USN flight was in part to drop off a member of the crew who was flying home for a family bereavement.

Psychlops · 18-05-2021 9:47pm

So this morning while most of us were at Work, a United States Air Force C17 Globemaster quietly worked her way low level through Irish Airspace taking in the Cliffs of Moher & Galway Bay before headed to Casement Air Base to visit the Irish Air Corps.

What made it special is the Pilot of the C17 is an Irishman himself, have a listen to this Audio between Shannon Air Traffic Control & USAF C17 on a Tactical Callsign of “SLAM69”.

Audio by Liveatc.net, it’s the very first recording in the link provided “SLAM69”.

Enjoy:
https://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

ohnonotgmail · 18-05-2021 9:54pm

Psychlops wrote: »

So this morning while most of us were at Work, a United States Air Force C17 Globemaster quietly worked her way low level through Irish Airspace taking in the Cliffs of Moher & Galway Bay before headed to Casement Air Base to visit the Irish Air Corps.

What made it special is the Pilot of the C17 is an Irishman himself, have a listen to this Audio between Shannon Air Traffic Control & USAF C17 on a Tactical Callsign of “SLAM69”.

Audio by Liveatc.net, it’s the very first recording in the link provided “SLAM69”.

Enjoy:
https://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

loved the pronunciation. Ballin-aslow. Casemont.

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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