Was Dublin ever Irish?

Plus you have the statutes of Kilkenny when settlers became "more Irish then the Irish themselves"

As said Dublin and the Pale was a mix of people, settlers, Celts, Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons and more.

And what people didn't expect was the Norman lords became "more Irish then the Irish themselves"
I posted that already

So for a long time there was no Royal army in Ireland, the Norman lords formed allegiences and worked with the Gaelic lords/chiefs.

The Statutes of Kilkenny were introduced in 1366 banning marraige between British settlers and the local people. Other restrictions such as the use of the Irish language and Brehon law.
But this is Ireland where we have many laws often ignored (the same today:D )and coming up to the Tudor period, not much had changed at all

The Earls of Kildare has some control. You probably studied Silken Thomas in school and that failure lead to increased Tudor control in Ireland and the policy of surrender and re-grant. And the declaration of Henry VIII as King of Ireland.


Realy before all this, everything was local, you owed your allegiance to the local chief.
Is it that much different to the end of the War of Independance when Dublin ordered one thing and your local commandant followed another? You follow your commandant!

So realy if you were in Donegal or Kerryy you know who your chief is.
Further east it's different. In Tipperary we had the Earl of Ormonde and over the next few centuries the Dukedom of Ormond.

Whats an Irish hair cut?

Found the Durer picture of the Irish Kerns. You can see the hairstyle of the two guys at the back. This haircut remained an issue well into the Tudor period.

MarchDub wrote: »

I don't recall at the moment what it was called

Is it called "the glib"

V480 wrote: »

Was this the same style of the 'Croppies' of 1798?

It has been suggested that the style likely had some influence on the croppies- who were also influenced by French revolutionary styles.

V480 wrote: »

I remember in school being told that they were banned from growing a moustache as this was considered an Irish tradition

Yes, the mustache was considered part of the old Irish style. You can see the mustaches in the Durer picture I posted previously.

CDfm wrote: »

A facinating question.

What was its relationship to the rest of Ireland. as a walled City.Was it a garrison city, for instance, how did it see itself allegience wise -as part of Greater Irelnd or a sort of "City State".

Depends on the time period in question. Under the Vikings, once they had been allowed to remain, it was effectively a Tuath, but internally run more like a Viking kingdom would be. Within Ireland, Dublin was subservient to the Ui Dunlainge up until the Battle of Clontarf, and after that, the Ui Neill became dominant. When the Anglo-Normans took over, and expanded it to the Pale, it was effectively an exclave of England, and therefore a completely separate entity to the rest of Ireland, not subservient to any of the High Kings. Obviously then when Ireland was finally fully conquered, Dublin was once again part of the same entity as the rest of the country.

The Mohowk Hairstyle is also Irish

The Story: Up until a few years ago, no one would have questioned the mohawk's roots. However, in 2003, an Irish peat harvester made a discovery that would change the hairstyle's history forever -- a 2,300-year-old corpse, remarkably well preserved by the unique chemistry of a peat bog, sporting a bonafide 'hawk.


The Shocker: The ancient Irish punker, dubbed Clonycavan Man, had gel in his hair, which archaeologists determined was made from vegetable oil mixed with a resin from southwestern France or Spain. Imported hair product? Today, scientists are still working hard to determine whether Clony was a prehistoric punker or just an Iron Age metrosexual.
http://articles.cnn.com/2007-07-20/living/bad.hair_1_hairstyles-18th-century-france?_s=PM:LIVING

Dublin is pre Viking and is derived from Dubh Linn ( Black pool) referring to a dark tidal pool where the river Poddle entered the Liffey near the site of Dublin Castle. There is mention of a settlement there pre Viking, in the Book of Invasions and the Annals of the Four Masters. The Vikings adopted the name as Dyflin and it survives today ofcourse as Dublin.

And while I'm at it, Baile Atha Cliath (meaning "town of the hurdled ford") referred to a settlement near a ford on the opposite bank of the Liffey. It's where Church Street meets the Liffey to those of familiar with the city. A settlement grew up on that side to be later incorporated into the rest of the city.

CDfm wrote: »

So Dublin itself - Irish or foreign- what can we say about demographics

988 -founded by the Danes/Vikings

It was founded long before 988. The Irish subdued Dublin in 988/89, and wanted a millennium to celebrate in the mid/late 1980's, hence the 988 "founding" date. There was a settlement there for at least about 1000 years prior to 988.

controlled by the Irish for 3 short periods

It was controlled by the Irish for most of its existence up until the Anglo-Normans arrived. The Vikings had it for a while until they were kicked out in the 9th Century, or there abouts, and when they came back to resettle it, they soon after became subordinate to the High King of Leinster. (988/89)

1171 Danes expelled by Anglo/Normans and Henry II then it was a walled city

The people weren't expelled, but their King was removed, I think killed but can't be sure off the top of my head. They retained their own culture for a while afterwards before adapting to the new one that had invaded.

One the best books on Dublin is Maurice Craig s' DUBLIN published in 1952.

I've had my copy for years and love to just root around inside of it. It's not a history as such - he says as much in his Preface - because his aim was to describe how the city grew and developed and not to cite all the important events of any period.

Demographics are hard to figure in the days before a census. Incidentally the population figures that are frequently given for Ireland and Dublin at early periods are usually based on Sir Wiliam Petty's 'estimated' numbers but I should point out that these 'figures' have come under attack in recent times.

CDfm wrote: »

I tried to look up a demographic history of Dublin but its difficult to find.

We know that we had Danes, Anglo Normans, A small Jewish population & Hugenots.

Who lived in the walled city to 1649 - what was its composition as surely that is an important indicator.

is there a reason you say danes? i mean as apposed to swedish or norwegian?

CDfm wrote: »

Ya don't mean :eek:

I get the feeling here that the Dubs are holding something back !!!!!

Yes, it's not nice to pry about all that was going on behind those walls!:D

CDfm wrote: »

I am using it because it seems to be convention in what I have read that the leaders of the Irish Vikings were Danes.

The early Viking raids on Ireland were from Norway and the Danes were the later raiders. In the Irish Annals there is a distinction made between the two as the "Fionn" [white] foreigners from Norway and the "Dubh" [dark] foreigners who were the Danes.

What this descriptive distinction actually means is not clear though - were they referring to the colour of hair or the difference in clothes the two groups wore? I don't think anyone has a clear answer for that.

CDfm wrote: »

The Mohowk Hairstyle is also Irish

It is entirely possible that this hair style would have came about spontaneously. It's worth noting also that there is also the possibility that the ancient Irish were trading with and interbreeding with native American tribes. This could have lead to a sharing of customs & language( algonquin ).

Brian reclaims the Hawk for Ireland

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

I know very few Dubliners that can trace their family tree back a hundred years without finding relatives from elsewhere in Ireland. Indeed a huge amount of Dubliners have at least one parent from a different county. In many cases its both parents. The frequency increases when you take into consideration grandparents and great-grandparents.

IMO Dublin has always been heavily influenced by different areas all over the island. It therefore is a better representation of the entire nation, than somwehere like , lets say Limerick, which is far more parochial.

While this is true- agreed - my family actually traces back over a very long time. There really are some dyed in the wool Dubs! Mostly we know they were artisans - printers, cabinet makers, coach drivers and clerical jobs at the Castle. Dublin Castle was a large employer in Dublin.

The Huguenots came and intermarried in the 1600s. They eventually apparently joined the Church of Ireland. But the mixture of Catholic and Church of Ireland criss-crosses all over the place - even within siblings. Looks like there was very little religious tension - at least at family levels.

The Vikings who founded the city did intermarry with the Irish and some names like Doyle, MacIvor are said to be Viking. There was a great discovery of Viking homes in Fishamble street back in the early 90s when the street was dug up for a hotel. I remember seeing it on site and I think it was all brought to the Museum in Kildare Street. It showed that the early Dublin homes were influenced by Viking design and were not the circular native Irish style.
Maybe CDfm can dig out :pac: the details of this.

I found this picture of the walled city. No date is suggested but post Anglo-Norman obviously.

This question tends to come up for Dublin, rather than for other towns founded by non-Irish groups. Since most towns ( as opposed to settlements) were founded by foreigners - Vikings or Anglo-Norman - it doesnt seem that Dublin would have a claim to fame here as the least Irish of Irish towns. All towns in Ireland took in populations from the surrounding Irish countryside over time, although some Anglo-Norman towns kept the Irish populations at bay - the IrishTowns outside the gates of the old Anglo towns.

Were I to guess at the highest frequency of non-Irish genes I would say the South East, in and around Wexford.

it's interesting that Dublin spoke Irish in the 16th and 17th centuries, as many Irish Anglo Norman towns conducted their affairs in English.

For the record - I'm off now to make some tea.