Was Dublin ever Irish?

Plus you have the statutes of Kilkenny when settlers became "more Irish then the Irish themselves"

As said Dublin and the Pale was a mix of people, settlers, Celts, Vikings, Normans, Anglo Saxons and more.

And what people didn't expect was the Norman lords became "more Irish then the Irish themselves"
I posted that already

So for a long time there was no Royal army in Ireland, the Norman lords formed allegiences and worked with the Gaelic lords/chiefs.

The Statutes of Kilkenny were introduced in 1366 banning marraige between British settlers and the local people. Other restrictions such as the use of the Irish language and Brehon law.
But this is Ireland where we have many laws often ignored (the same today:D )and coming up to the Tudor period, not much had changed at all

The Earls of Kildare has some control. You probably studied Silken Thomas in school and that failure lead to increased Tudor control in Ireland and the policy of surrender and re-grant. And the declaration of Henry VIII as King of Ireland.


Realy before all this, everything was local, you owed your allegiance to the local chief.
Is it that much different to the end of the War of Independance when Dublin ordered one thing and your local commandant followed another? You follow your commandant!

So realy if you were in Donegal or Kerryy you know who your chief is.
Further east it's different. In Tipperary we had the Earl of Ormonde and over the next few centuries the Dukedom of Ormond.

Whats an Irish hair cut?

Found the Durer picture of the Irish Kerns. You can see the hairstyle of the two guys at the back. This haircut remained an issue well into the Tudor period.

MarchDub wrote: »

I don't recall at the moment what it was called

Is it called "the glib"

V480 wrote: »

Was this the same style of the 'Croppies' of 1798?

It has been suggested that the style likely had some influence on the croppies- who were also influenced by French revolutionary styles.

V480 wrote: »

I remember in school being told that they were banned from growing a moustache as this was considered an Irish tradition

Yes, the mustache was considered part of the old Irish style. You can see the mustaches in the Durer picture I posted previously.

CDfm wrote: »

A facinating question.

What was its relationship to the rest of Ireland. as a walled City.Was it a garrison city, for instance, how did it see itself allegience wise -as part of Greater Irelnd or a sort of "City State".

Depends on the time period in question. Under the Vikings, once they had been allowed to remain, it was effectively a Tuath, but internally run more like a Viking kingdom would be. Within Ireland, Dublin was subservient to the Ui Dunlainge up until the Battle of Clontarf, and after that, the Ui Neill became dominant. When the Anglo-Normans took over, and expanded it to the Pale, it was effectively an exclave of England, and therefore a completely separate entity to the rest of Ireland, not subservient to any of the High Kings. Obviously then when Ireland was finally fully conquered, Dublin was once again part of the same entity as the rest of the country.

The Mohowk Hairstyle is also Irish

The Story: Up until a few years ago, no one would have questioned the mohawk's roots. However, in 2003, an Irish peat harvester made a discovery that would change the hairstyle's history forever -- a 2,300-year-old corpse, remarkably well preserved by the unique chemistry of a peat bog, sporting a bonafide 'hawk.


The Shocker: The ancient Irish punker, dubbed Clonycavan Man, had gel in his hair, which archaeologists determined was made from vegetable oil mixed with a resin from southwestern France or Spain. Imported hair product? Today, scientists are still working hard to determine whether Clony was a prehistoric punker or just an Iron Age metrosexual.
http://articles.cnn.com/2007-07-20/living/bad.hair_1_hairstyles-18th-century-france?_s=PM:LIVING

Dublin is pre Viking and is derived from Dubh Linn ( Black pool) referring to a dark tidal pool where the river Poddle entered the Liffey near the site of Dublin Castle. There is mention of a settlement there pre Viking, in the Book of Invasions and the Annals of the Four Masters. The Vikings adopted the name as Dyflin and it survives today ofcourse as Dublin.

And while I'm at it, Baile Atha Cliath (meaning "town of the hurdled ford") referred to a settlement near a ford on the opposite bank of the Liffey. It's where Church Street meets the Liffey to those of familiar with the city. A settlement grew up on that side to be later incorporated into the rest of the city.

CDfm wrote: »

So Dublin itself - Irish or foreign- what can we say about demographics

988 -founded by the Danes/Vikings

It was founded long before 988. The Irish subdued Dublin in 988/89, and wanted a millennium to celebrate in the mid/late 1980's, hence the 988 "founding" date. There was a settlement there for at least about 1000 years prior to 988.

controlled by the Irish for 3 short periods

It was controlled by the Irish for most of its existence up until the Anglo-Normans arrived. The Vikings had it for a while until they were kicked out in the 9th Century, or there abouts, and when they came back to resettle it, they soon after became subordinate to the High King of Leinster. (988/89)

1171 Danes expelled by Anglo/Normans and Henry II then it was a walled city

The people weren't expelled, but their King was removed, I think killed but can't be sure off the top of my head. They retained their own culture for a while afterwards before adapting to the new one that had invaded.

One the best books on Dublin is Maurice Craig s' DUBLIN published in 1952.

I've had my copy for years and love to just root around inside of it. It's not a history as such - he says as much in his Preface - because his aim was to describe how the city grew and developed and not to cite all the important events of any period.

Demographics are hard to figure in the days before a census. Incidentally the population figures that are frequently given for Ireland and Dublin at early periods are usually based on Sir Wiliam Petty's 'estimated' numbers but I should point out that these 'figures' have come under attack in recent times.

CDfm wrote: »

I tried to look up a demographic history of Dublin but its difficult to find.

We know that we had Danes, Anglo Normans, A small Jewish population & Hugenots.

Who lived in the walled city to 1649 - what was its composition as surely that is an important indicator.

is there a reason you say danes? i mean as apposed to swedish or norwegian?