Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

TheW1zard · 05-07-2020 2:42pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Just No.

They do they have little firework screamers on their engine planes

ohnonotgmail · 05-07-2020 2:48pm

TheW1zard wrote: »

They do they have little firework screamers on their engine planes

Just no. The PC-9M has a service ceiling of 25,000 feet. airliners are generally around 30,000+ feet. the PC-9M can be armed with rockets. Rockets, not missiles. Unguided rockets. hawkeye from the avengers couldn't hit an airliner with unguided rockets.

TheW1zard · 05-07-2020 2:49pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Just no. The PC-9M has a service ceiling of 25,000 feet. airliners are generally around 30,000+ feet. the PC-9M can be armed with rockets. Rockets, not missiles. Unguided rockets. hawkeye from the avengers couldn't hit an airliner with unguided rockets.

Ah i see, what a **** air force!

TheW1zard · 05-07-2020 2:49pm

TheW1zard wrote: »

Ah i see, what a **** air force!

Air Farce

punchdrunk · 05-07-2020 7:08pm

TheW1zard wrote: »

Dont the air corps have rockets on their planes? If they needed to shoot down a rogue easyjet they could

it's not just about lobbing missiles at something- a far larger part of interception is getting close to the aircraft, looking into the cockpit to see if the crew are incapacitated, performing aggressive maneuvers to warn off intruders and shepherding wayward aircraft out of our airspace. Firing missiles is a last resort and all the other things require you to have the speed advantage to get in front of the target aircraft if need- meaning subsonic aircraft are mostly useless.

Larbre34 · 05-07-2020 10:27pm

Yeah lets not feed that. Reported.

Larbre34 · 05-07-2020 10:37pm

I have a family member in Singapore. Obviously space is pretty tight there, so there actually two separate Air Force bases on the site of Changi international airport that utilise the runways of the civilian airport. There is also airport in Florida that has the same shared operation.

What are people's thoughts on selling up Casement and moving the Air Corps lockstock to Shannon? The sale could be reinvested in Air Corps equipment and an Air Corps base using existing infrastructure at Shannon would be an economic boost locally. The Government could keep a small operation at Dublin Airport, leased or whatever to operate ministerial flights and helicopter transfers etc....

I mean the Naval Service has no Dublin base, does the AC absolutely have to have one?

sparky42 · 05-07-2020 11:44pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I have a family member in Singapore. Obviously space is pretty tight there, so there actually two separate Air Force bases on the site of Changi international airport that utilise the runways of the civilian airport. There is also airport in Florida that has the same shared operation.

What are people's thoughts on selling up Casement and moving the Air Corps lockstock to Shannon? The sale could be reinvested in Air Corps equipment and an Air Corps base using existing infrastructure at Shannon would be an economic boost locally. The Government could keep a small operation at Dublin Airport, leased or whatever to operate ministerial flights and helicopter transfers etc....

I mean the Naval Service has no Dublin base, does the AC absolutely have to have one?

Given a chunk of the current fixed wing operations are West Coast and if we ever did have fighters so would their business, along with the fact that I highly doubt the Dublin suburbs would enjoy the increase in engine noise, yes it does actually make sense to move the AC out of Dublin, and not just for those reasons. The salaries of the AC members would go a hell of a lot further anywhere else than Dublin and it's commuter belt.

There's no reason why Shannon couldn't be used given some of it's mothballed runways anyway.

Manic Moran · 06-07-2020 3:21am

TheW1zard wrote: »

Air Farce

[MOD]This is your one warning to cease trolling[/MOD]

roadmaster · 06-07-2020 8:52am

sparky42 wrote: »

Given a chunk of the current fixed wing operations are West Coast and if we ever did have fighters so would their business, along with the fact that I highly doubt the Dublin suburbs would enjoy the increase in engine noise, yes it does actually make sense to move the AC out of Dublin, and not just for those reasons. The salaries of the AC members would go a hell of a lot further anywhere else than Dublin and it's commuter belt.

There's no reason why Shannon couldn't be used given some of it's mothballed runways anyway.

You could keep rotary operations on the east coast by reopening and upgrading Gormanston

punchdrunk · 06-07-2020 11:39am

the problem is you can hardly now uproot 800 odd people and their families and force them to move!
when you joining say, the RAF it's a given that you'll spend a few years stationed abroad or operating from a carrier or whatever- we've never had that culture in the DF, even overseas duty is voluntary. relocating the air corps forcibly would I imagine trigger a mass exodus of experience by those who had done their time and have families settled in Dublin.

The only way to implement such a regime change would be to start small, on a volunteer basis and then create that new culture as recruits sign up knowing that they can be stationed anywhere.

roadmaster · 06-07-2020 11:51am

Like you say start small , Offer relocation packages and do it over 5/10 year period. Besides i am sure there is plenty of young blood on the western seaboard and midlands that would love to join. With the motorway network nearly complete Shannon is not far from anywhere now. You could also set up the same way they have 112 setup in Athlone with the crews essentially doing shifts and after a few days go back to the east coast where ever there based

donvito99 · 06-07-2020 4:49pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

None of it is absurd at all.

If it is absurd, as you claim, then explain why so many other nations, including neutral and non-aligned European states with a similar profile to Ireland, have invested at least to some degree in jet fighter capability?

Are their motivations absurd?

Sweden narrowly avoided invasion in WW2. It sat underneath the putative flight path of Russian bombers during the Cold War. It is 200km from Kaliningrad.

Austria's Typhoon experience has been a disaster. Switerland's QRA is 9 to 5 and famously was not available to intercept a hijacked Ethiopian jet.

All three countries have substantial defence industries.

We don't have the industry, history or present need for their fleets of combat aircraft.

Larbre34 · 06-07-2020 8:27pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Could go with the half way house option of some nice advanced jet trainers like a BAE Hawk, Aermacchi M-345 or even the rather nice Yakovlev Yak-130 :pac:

They still don't have the intercept speed to do the job. Those types would be an unnecessary expense for little extra capability over the PC-9s

Larbre34 · 06-07-2020 8:48pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Sweden narrowly avoided invasion in WW2. It sat underneath the putative flight path of Russian bombers during the Cold War. It is 200km from Kaliningrad.

Austria's Typhoon experience has been a disaster. Switerland's QRA is 9 to 5 and famously was not available to intercept a hijacked Ethiopian jet.

All three countries have substantial defence industries.

We don't have the industry, history or present need for their fleets of combat aircraft.

One squadron. Nobody is talking about fleets.

Hungary and the Czechs have made a great success of their Gripen lease operations.

The Swiss have it as a cornerstone of their defence policy to provide 24/7 QRA with their F-18s by the end of this year. They had lined up a deal for a few dozen Gripens but put it to a referendum, as they do, and it was rejected.

I'd welcome a similar referendum here on the people's attitudes to national defence, following the outcome of the Commission on Defence promised in the Programme for Government.

But again, the central European nations are more protected by virtue of being in the middle of the continent and the surrounding air defence nets of big NATO members. We don't have that, or at least we cannot and should not count on Britain in the long term.

The Austrian Typhoon acquisition absolutely was a cluster-eff from beginning to end, but that was down to the eye-watering inefficiency of that type and massive political mismanagement. As a matter of fact, it is the Austrian Govts intention to replace the type asap with, guess what, Gripens or F-16s!

tjhook · 07-07-2020 8:27am

Larbre34 wrote: »

We don't have that, or at least we cannot and should not count on Britain in the long term.

We probably can count on Britain in the long term - they have little choice but to fill the gap that we won't.

But the status quo is that we outsource the security of the country to the RAF. Anybody supporting this would be hypocritical to grumble about the British military. They can't have it both ways.

punchdrunk · 09-07-2020 11:26pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'd welcome a similar referendum here on the people's attitudes to national defence, following the outcome of the Commission on Defence promised in the Programme for Government.

A referendum would be a ****show- Irish people are mostly clueless about defence!

roadmaster · 10-07-2020 8:47am

tjhook wrote: »

We probably can count on Britain in the long term - they have little choice but to fill the gap that we won't.

But the status quo is that we outsource the security of the country to the RAF. Anybody supporting this would be hypocritical to grumble about the British military. They can't have it both ways.

I think you count on the UK for nothing the way there going. They are currently on disputes with China and Russia also this little thing called Brexit. At the moment instead of being a responsible country they are the stereotype drunk brit a 2am in costa del sol

roadmaster · 10-07-2020 8:45pm

Something to be wary about when buying fighter jets

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/eurofighter-set-for-rough-ride-in-austria-updated-02701/

sparky42 · 11-07-2020 12:09am

roadmaster wrote: »

Something to be wary about when buying fighter jets

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/eurofighter-set-for-rough-ride-in-austria-updated-02701/

There's plenty of blame to go round for that debacle I think, but it's a fair point.

Larbre34 · 11-07-2020 2:02am

Ah look, the Austrian debacle is a well known sh1tshow, the worst of the worst political and project management and a money pit of an aircraft to boot.

The Czech and Hungarian Gripen leases are however great successes.

roadmaster · 11-07-2020 12:43pm

so it settled were getting a squadron of grippens to be based at Air Station Shannon

Leonidas BL · 11-07-2020 1:04pm

roadmaster wrote: »

so it settled were getting a squadron of grippens to be based at Air Station Shannon

Sounds good to me

Only thing now is, C/D or E/F model???

satguy · 11-07-2020 1:46pm

We don't need Fighter Jets,, What we need is to finish building our children's hospital, extend our Luas system, and top of the things we need to do,, is to build more homes.

So what we can do is build houses on the Baldonnel site, and mothball the rusting junk that is sitting on that very nice and well placed plot of land.

roadmaster · 11-07-2020 1:55pm

satguy wrote: »

We don't need Fighter Jets,, What we need is to finish building our children's hospital, extend our Luas system, and top of the things we need to do,, is to build more homes.

So what we can do is build houses on the Baldonnel site, and mothball the rusting junk that is sitting on that very nice and well placed plot of land.

what junk?

Leonidas BL · 11-07-2020 2:19pm

satguy wrote: »

We don't need Fighter Jets,, What we need is to finish building our children's hospital, extend our Luas system, and top of the things we need to do,, is to build more homes.

So what we can do is build houses on the Baldonnel site, and mothball the rusting junk that is sitting on that very nice and well placed plot of land.

Go away please

satguy · 11-07-2020 3:36pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Go away please

This is an online forum,, we talk about stuff here.

The whole country is going down the toilet,, and some want to spend good money on Fighter Jets .

sparky42 · 11-07-2020 4:08pm

satguy wrote: »

This is an online forum,, we talk about stuff here.

The whole country is going down the toilet,, and some want to spend good money on Fighter Jets .

The State spent four times by percentage than we do now in far far more economically difficult times, it's more than possible for a nation to do more than one thing at a time. And given the budgets for the areas you are complaining about dwarf the DF budget, maybe go complain in those threads about how the monies are spent.

Larbre34 · 11-07-2020 5:02pm

satguy wrote: »

This is an online forum,, we talk about stuff here.

The whole country is going down the toilet,, and some want to spend good money on Fighter Jets .

Yeah but it isn't going down the toilet. Covid will be overcome and despite all the challenges we'll come out of Brexit as the main anglophone market within the EU and boom again!

Why not organise a tour of Casement for yourself and get an education.

satguy · 11-07-2020 5:19pm

We have some Tom Cruise and Top Gun fans in the house tonight.

Our trains and rolling stock need upgrading, our roads need potholes fixed. Add all that to the list above.

So just say No, to Fighter Jets.

sparky42 · 11-07-2020 5:52pm

satguy wrote: »

We have some Tom Cruise and Top Gun fans in the house tonight.

Our trains and rolling stock need upgrading, our roads need potholes fixed. Add all that to the list above.

So just say No, to Fighter Jets.

And all of which are already well more funded than the DF and are already in hand (in case you missed it, the rolling stock is already under order and will come when it's made, while the Road network is getting as much as possible despite the Greens), you could take the entire DF budget pay and pensions included and it wouldn't make a fecking difference to your points.

Larbre34 · 11-07-2020 8:14pm

Mental health is underfunded too, now that I think of it.

tjhook · 11-07-2020 8:15pm

satguy wrote: »

We have some Tom Cruise and Top Gun fans in the house tonight.

Our trains and rolling stock need upgrading, our roads need potholes fixed. Add all that to the list above.

So just say No, to Fighter Jets.

Ok, so anybody with a different opinion is a Top Gun fan.

What's your alternative? Outsource to the RAF and hope they'll continue to oblige? I suppose we could do without a military altogether if we had a few battalions of the Royal Marines here too. That would free up even more cash for the semi-states.

roadmaster · 12-07-2020 8:03pm

I see on the air corps Facebook page a picture of the pc9s prior to a fly over for the national day of commemoration. I noticed they had the rocket pods attached I wonder was someone considering a coup de'ta

12-07-2020 8:06pm

satguy wrote: »

We have some Tom Cruise and Top Gun fans in the house tonight.

Our trains and rolling stock need upgrading, our roads need potholes fixed. Add all that to the list above.

So just say No, to Fighter Jets.

Do you realise that spending tax money in a multitude of areas is good business? Surrendering the entire lot in one area is a very bad idea. You need to employ people across many, many sectors.

Read up on the construction industry boom and bust

Larbre34 · 12-07-2020 11:42pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I see on the air corps Facebook page a picture of the pc9s prior to a fly over for the national day of commemoration. I noticed they had the rocket pods attached I wonder was someone considering a coup de'ta

I spotted that as the formation flew over on the telly coverage, struck me as pretty strange!

Leonidas BL · 13-07-2020 4:51pm

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/2020/07/13/irelands-air-force-badly-needs-fighter-jets/#7f198f346c32

I felt shame reading this

nelly17 · 13-07-2020 4:56pm

Would they be for the coloured smoke? - complete passer by here I have no idea

edit:the rocket pods I mean

sparky42 · 13-07-2020 6:33pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

https://www.forbes.com/sites/pauliddon/2020/07/13/irelands-air-force-badly-needs-fighter-jets/#7f198f346c32

I felt shame reading this

Thing is, it's still based off a crazy interpretation of the Defence Equipment document, everyone seems to be jumping to the conclusion that this is something actively being looked at rather than just a nod to the White Paper.

roadmaster · 13-07-2020 8:08pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Thing is, it's still based off a crazy interpretation of the Defence Equipment document, everyone seems to be jumping to the conclusion that this is something actively being looked at rather than just a nod to the White Paper.

Dont be a party pooper with your facts!

Larbre34 · 13-07-2020 11:24pm

Don't be so quick to dismiss it, we've learned from experience that external perceptions matter to Irish Governments, or at least they matter to the civil servants and the IDA and the NTMA etc.

A perception of Defence weakness, or at least it being a low priority for the State, raises questions around cybersecurity protection, protection and insulation of vital strategic infrastructure that ensures business continuity for foreign companies with huge investments here.

I don't really care how the Government is persuaded to get serious about defence of our sovereignty, if they are shamed into it or bounced into it, so be it.

Markcheese · 14-07-2020 12:29am

Personally I don't think a few token fighters add much to our national security at the moment .. they may actually make the situation worse ,
But as the song says the times they are a changing , we've no idea what uk may do or become long-term ,(neither do they ) ,
So start planning and training ... not Because some magazine wrote a critical article, because we've looked at potential risks and acted ,

We've 4 newish beckets, that were 50 million plus each , a single base in hawlbowline, 9 ( ish ) ships ,just under 1100 in waves , and it currently doesn't really provide any meaningful defense ...

roadmaster · 14-07-2020 12:17pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Don't be so quick to dismiss it, we've learned from experience that external perceptions matter to Irish Governments, or at least they matter to the civil servants and the IDA and the NTMA etc.

A perception of Defence weakness, or at least it being a low priority for the State, raises questions around cybersecurity protection, protection and insulation of vital strategic infrastructure that ensures business continuity for foreign companies with huge investments here.

I don't really care how the Government is persuaded to get serious about defence of our sovereignty, if they are shamed into it or bounced into it, so be it.

i wouldn't say i am dismissing it but if fighters do happen it will be a long term project. In the short to medium term the state needs to work on retention programmes ( Maybe the way aviation is technicians could be got back from the private sector?) we also need to sort out troop transport

Leonidas BL · 14-07-2020 1:18pm

roadmaster · 14-07-2020 3:53pm

More than unlike some of the gripen operators the air corps would be operating jets over the north Atlantic, from a safety point of view would you not need a twin engine aircraft?

Larbre34 · 14-07-2020 5:07pm

Nah I wouldn't think so. Its obviously a factor but if Sweden and South Africa are satisfied to use them in their environments, they'd probably check out.

Twin engine interceptors are few and expensive. F-15, F-18 and Typhoon are just about 100 million each and keeping them flying is a budget haemorrhage. The Korean F15K super advanced fighter is 140 million each. Ouch.

sparky42 · 14-07-2020 6:03pm

roadmaster wrote: »

More than unlike some of the gripen operators the air corps would be operating jets over the north Atlantic, from a safety point of view would you not need a twin engine aircraft?

Not really when you consider the USN is going single engine with the F35. I mean what's the average loss rate of single engine 4.5 gen fighters?

Leonidas BL · 14-07-2020 7:49pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Not really when you consider the USN is going single engine with the F35. I mean what's the average loss rate of single engine 4.5 gen fighters?

Not sure, but the latest one to crash was an F-15 in the north sea. So having two engines does not guarantee safety either. I think that argument nowadays has run its course.

sparky42 · 14-07-2020 7:55pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not sure, but the latest one to crash was an F-15 in the north sea. So having two engines does not guarantee safety either. I think that argument nowadays has run its course.

Pretty much, have they announced the cause for that loss? Speaking of which I see the USAF has ordered the F-15X.

punchdrunk · 14-07-2020 11:37pm

Jet's aren't going to happen, the Air Corps will get nothing but tokenism.
same for the Navy (albeit slightly better)

Nothing will change until some takes the bull by the horns and completely reorganises the DF, closes half of the barracks
reduces the size of the army and expands the AC and the navy... we're an island that's somewhat poorly defended by sea and completely undefended by air, meanwhile we have thousands of soldiers in barracks that are holdovers from our colonial past.

but who has the balls to close barracks in towns that aren't strategically useful?

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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