Is this the end of Debenhams?

mikemac2 · 23-04-2021 7:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-remove-workers-former-debenhams-store-dublin-5418011-Apr2021/

If there’s no cash or assets in the company to fund the payments, the report recommended that the State should foot the bill at the enhanced agreed-upon rate instead of the statutory one.

I can see why the government delayed implementing this report. If you pay this once you have to pay every time

Maybe it's the right thing to do but once it's started it cannot be taken back.

L1011 · 23-04-2021 7:14pm

The stock is getting worth less and less every day - what they are "protecting" is probably worth five figures a store at this stage; sold on to a middleman who'll find what's usable and sell it to independent clothes stores / market traders / TK Maxx style places and the rest will go to textile recycling.

Even the perfumes etc are only going to have so much of the classic long lasting high price brands; there'll be a lot of fashion dependent stuff that's only worth throwing at TK Maxx.

RGARDINR · 23-04-2021 7:33pm

L1011 wrote: »

The stock is getting worth less and less every day - what they are "protecting" is probably worth five figures a store at this stage; sold on to a middleman who'll find what's usable and sell it to independent clothes stores / market traders / TK Maxx style places and the rest will go to textile recycling.

Even the perfumes etc are only going to have so much of the classic long lasting high price brands; there'll be a lot of fashion dependent stuff that's only worth throwing at TK Maxx.

perfume cosmetics will hold value. Some of the toys etc.just shame would of been a good closing down sale.

L1011 · 23-04-2021 7:37pm

Lots of the cosmetics will be owned by the concessionaires; the nicer stuff Debenhams actually owned for KPMG to resell is limited enough. Mainly lots and lots of own brand clothes that are three seasons out of date.

RGARDINR · 23-04-2021 7:47pm

L1011 wrote: »

Lots of the cosmetics will be owned by the concessionaires; the nicer stuff Debenhams actually owned for KPMG to resell is limited enough. Mainly lots and lots of own brand clothes that are three seasons out of date.

True, only thing is the clothes brands would of been about now last year as such it went and collapsed and lots of people haven't bought a lot of clothes since then so wouldn't look to bad I suppose even now.

24-04-2021 11:27am

This seems to be what the protest is about. However, the earlier redundancy deal was no longer on the table. It was simply for a round of voluntary redundancies in, I think, 2016.

“They are also demanding that the government implement the findings of the 2016 Duffy Cahill report. Published in the wake of the Clery’s debacle, the report recommended that workers who have negotiated enhanced redundancy packages with their employer should be moved up the priority list of creditors in the case of an insolvent liquidation.

If there’s no cash or assets in the company to fund the payments, the report recommended that the State should foot the bill at the enhanced agreed-upon rate instead of the statutory one.”

rolling boh · 24-04-2021 2:08pm

No way should the state step in and pony up it would set up huge problems down the line after every closure. It is tough on a lot of the workers I suppose some of them have nothing left to lose by keeping up their fight as they see it and listening to some hard left politicians stirring things up .

24-04-2021 3:04pm

rolling boh wrote: »

No way should the state step in and pony up it would set up huge problems down the line after every closure. It is tough on a lot of the workers I suppose some of them have nothing left to lose by keeping up their fight as they see it and listening to some hard left politicians stirring things up .

There you have it! They must see that it will have a detrimental effect on their chances of securing employment in the future. I very much doubt that many of the estimated 2,000 are actually picketing.

jimmycrackcorm · 24-04-2021 4:04pm

Deleted User wrote:

If thereâ€™s no cash or assets in the company to fund the payments, the report recommended that the State should foot the bill at the enhanced agreed-upon rate instead of the statutory one.â€

Statutory Redundancy is funded via PRSI contributions. So if people want enhanced agreed upon rates, then let them increase their PRSI taxes.

24-04-2021 4:07pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Statutory Redundancy is funded via PRSI contributions. So if people want enhanced agreed upon rates, then let them increase their PRSI taxes.

Good Lord, NO. Let someone else pay!

Debenhams has been failing for years. It didn’t come as a surprise when it closed. It’s gone in the UK too.

05-05-2021 4:01pm

I see the last Debenhams in the UK are closing next week. I doubt that they’ll be the last closures. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9544965/Debenhams-reveals-closing-details-final-49-stores.html

RGARDINR · 05-05-2021 8:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I see the last Debenhams in the UK are closing next week. I doubt that they’ll be the last closures. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9544965/Debenhams-reveals-closing-details-final-49-stores.html

Was up in Newry debenhams on Friday. Was a good sale in it now. Was a shame they didn't get to do that down here. Say some of the stock was from stores down here and brought up there. Bíg queues at the tills. 1st time I ever saw a trolley in a debenhams with some one packing it out with things to buy.

Darc19 · 07-05-2021 6:30am

RGARDINR wrote: »

Was up in Newry debenhams on Friday. Was a good sale in it now. Was a shame they didn't get to do that down here. Say some of the stock was from stores down here and brought up there. Bíg queues at the tills. 1st time I ever saw a trolley in a debenhams with some one packing it out with things to buy.

If they had it here the prices would probably have been reduced to what every other shop charges normally.

Debenhams was horrendously over priced and used a €1.55 exchange rate from stg.

One of the key items that I sell was 40% more expensive in Debenhams all year round.

16-05-2021 1:59pm

The last UK stores have now closed. https://www.thejournal.ie/debenhams-shut-in-uk-5438233-May2021/
Yet the Irish former workers are still flogging the dead horse, trying to bully the taxpayer into paying them more than they’re entitled to. I wonder how many of them are putting as much energy into finding new jobs? I hear Dundrum Center are struggling to fill vacancies.

RGARDINR · 16-05-2021 2:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The last UK stores have now closed. https://www.thejournal.ie/debenhams-shut-in-uk-5438233-May2021/
Yet the Irish former workers are still flogging the dead horse, trying to bully the taxpayer into paying them more than they’re entitled to. I wonder how many of them are putting as much energy into finding new jobs? I hear Dundrum Center are struggling to fill vacancies.

Got to go up to Newry twice and went into the debenhams twice up there before it closed got some good stuff 1st time and not as much 2nd time as shop was half empty. Funny my dad said they were still out picketing at Henry St store. I thought they got all the merchandise out the other wk when the guards got involved.

Jerry Attrick · 16-05-2021 2:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet the Irish former workers are still flogging the dead horse, trying to bully the taxpayer into paying them more than they’re entitled to. I wonder how many of them are putting as much energy into finding new jobs?

Big issue here is that the current Taoiseach seems to have made some rash promise or other to the Debenhams strikers in Cork and they - supported by the usual motley crew of left wing TDs - are trying to make him squirm as much as possible.

Darc19 · 18-05-2021 8:58pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

It has been mentioned by a few politicians that if the Debenhams workers legacy is their situation doesn't happen again to others they should be proud. You cannot backdate a law so it won't be for them but for the next situation

Noble indeed

But I don't think a soul on the picket lines are so inclined. Why would they think of future generations instead of themselves? Legacy howareya

Correct. They never thought of the customer when they were working, (had very poor reputation for service) so would hardly think of future workers.

In any case, retail is not high skilled and it's relatively easy to get re-employment in the same locality if you can show you can provide good customer service

Hotblack Desiato · 18-05-2021 11:30pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

It has been mentioned by a few politicians that if the Debenhams workers legacy is their situation doesn't happen again to others they should be proud. You cannot backdate a law so it won't be for them but for the next situation

What do they actually mean though?

There will always be workers being made redundant from one business or another.

The Debenhams workers were offered their statutory entitlements. They wanted more but the company said it couldn't pay more and the taxpayer shouldn't have to.

If these politicians want to make statutory redundancy payments larger then they will need to increase employer PRSI to pay for it.

No doubt the same ones would decry that as a "tax on jobs" :rolleyes:

Faze11 · 19-05-2021 12:55am

Darc19 wrote: »

Correct. They never thought of the customer when they were working, (had very poor reputation for service) so would hardly think of future workers.

In any case, retail is not high skilled and it's relatively easy to get re-employment in the same locality if you can show you can provide good customer service

Good customer service is so rare these days that therein lies the skill in the good ones. Retail companies need to start hiring based on customer service skill rather than sales skills. The former creates sales and repeat business.

ongarboy · 19-05-2021 1:48pm

May be an unpopular opinion but the longer this drags on, it'll come to the stage that having Debenhams on your CV could act as a deterrent to future employers as they may wonder if you are one of the militant protesters. I strongly believe its just a minority of workers and their vested interest supporters keeping this going. The rest of the laid off staff found replacement jobs many months ago and have earned multiples of the few thousand euro the protestors are campaigning for in that interim.

Its all over the news that retailers are struggling to fill jobs so there is plenty of such work available.

Mrs OBumble · 19-05-2021 2:12pm

ongarboy wrote: »

May be an unpopular opinion but the longer this drags on, it'll come to the stage that having Debenhams on your CV could act as a deterrent to future employers as

I believe it's already long past that stage.

rolling boh · 19-05-2021 2:16pm

Some of the more vocal protesters will be given a wide berth by any potential employers they would certainly be seen as possibly difficult and not worth the grief. .

19-05-2021 4:24pm

rolling boh wrote: »

Some of the more vocal protesters will be given a wide berth by any potential employers they would certainly be seen as possibly difficult and not worth the grief. .

Judging by their Facebook page, there aren’t many protesters left, vocal or otherwise. The numbers are usually bulked up by the likes of Ruth Coppinger.

The protesters that are left have no interest in getting another job.

Jerry Attrick · 20-05-2021 5:06pm

Ex-Debenhams workers vote to end industrial dispute after 406 days

"These brave trade unionists maintained their legal pickets no matter the weather and in the midst of a global pandemic they socially distanced on picket lines whilst facing down the government and KPMG at every opportunity," said Gerry Light, Mandate General Secretary. :-)

Frankly I'm shocked! How on earth will Coppinger and her pals pass the time now that this is over? I wonder if they'll find something a bit more useful to do - like picketing the Israeli Embassy.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40294034.html

Rrrrrr2 · 20-05-2021 5:11pm

RGARDINR wrote: »

Was up in Newry debenhams on Friday. Was a good sale in it now. Was a shame they didn't get to do that down here. Say some of the stock was from stores down here and brought up there. Bíg queues at the tills. 1st time I ever saw a trolley in a debenhams with some one packing it out with things to buy.

I reckon it would have been too much hassle- I support the workers to a point but at this stage it’s flogging a dead horse- the business was dying/dead anyhow and would have happened anyhow. The sensible thing would have been to have a quick clearance sale in situ but would have been a lot of trouble. Their workforce seem very militant

mikemac2 · 20-05-2021 5:18pm

The Facebook group seems to lay the blame 50:50 on the government and union leadership

That’s not scientific, just a quick scan by me

afro man · 20-05-2021 5:19pm

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

I reckon it would have been too much hassle- I support the workers to a point but at this stage it’s flogging a dead horse- the business was dying/dead anyhow and would have happened anyhow. The sensible thing would have been to have a quick clearance sale in situ but would have been a lot of trouble. Their workforce seem very militant

Fair play to the Workers for Protesting .. imagine you lost your job after 10-20 years and company can walk away and then have the neck to go back into store and remove items for a quick sale.. Militant now if you protest for your jobs or Money owed.. Note Government were Shocking with no help or support and to make it even worse they sent in Gardaí to help the company clean out the Stock .

20-05-2021 5:30pm

afro man wrote: »

Fair play to the Workers for Protesting .. imagine you lost your job after 10-20 years and company can walk away and then have the neck to go back into store and remove items for a quick sale.. Militant now if you protest for your jobs or Money owed.. Note Government were Shocking with no help or support and to make it even worse they sent in Gardaí to help the company clean out the Stock .

They got their statutory redundancy.

Only one fifth of the former workers voted on the accepted deal. A case of a few empty vessels making a lot of noise.

newuser99999 · 20-05-2021 5:34pm

afro man wrote: »

Fair play to the Workers for Protesting .. imagine you lost your job after 10-20 years and company can walk away and then have the neck to go back into store and remove items for a quick sale.. Militant now if you protest for your jobs or Money owed.. Note Government were Shocking with no help or support and to make it even worse they sent in Gardaí to help the company clean out the Stock .

The goods need to be sold to pay their creditors. It’s not just free money and stock.

Rrrrrr2 · 20-05-2021 7:20pm

newuser99999 wrote: »

The goods need to be sold to pay their creditors. It’s not just free money and stock.

The business was dead at this stage- I like Debenhams but was an outdated business model-menswear at least was often very behind the times.

Darc19 · 20-05-2021 9:57pm

ongarboy wrote: »

May be an unpopular opinion but the longer this drags on, it'll come to the stage that having Debenhams on your CV could act as a deterrent to future employers as they may wonder if you are one of the militant protesters. I strongly believe its just a minority of workers and their vested interest supporters keeping this going. The rest of the laid off staff found replacement jobs many months ago and have earned multiples of the few thousand euro the protestors are campaigning for in that interim.

Its all over the news that retailers are struggling to fill jobs so there is plenty of such work available.

It already does.

It was a subject of discussion at an online retailer conference and the overwhelming majority said that they would discard CVS that had Debenhams on them without immediate new employment when they closed

20-05-2021 10:04pm

Darc19 wrote: »

It already does.

It was a subject of discussion at an online retailer conference and the overwhelming majority said that they would discard CVS that had Debenhams on them without immediate new employment when they closed

That’s a surprise. Not! Trouble makers are never wanted. They did great to last as long as they did. No talent. No work ethic. No ambition.

Trouble is that the small minority are ruining it for the majority.

Jerry Attrick · 20-05-2021 10:14pm

Darc19 wrote: »

It was a subject of discussion at an online retailer conference and the overwhelming majority said that they would discard CVS that had Debenhams on them without immediate new employment when they closed

But none of the Debenhams strikers will contemplate working in retail again!

They've been given access to a €3m re-training fund which will enable them all to qualify as astronauts or nuclear physicists or, God forbid, as Solidarity-PbP TDs!

22-05-2021 9:10am

So, they were expecting to be laid off.

“I remember just saying to one of the managers, jokingly; ‘I’ll probably never see you again, they’ll probably walk away now with the pandemic and take the opportunity’.”
https://www.thejournal.ie/debenhams-workers-2-5444168-May2021/

RGARDINR · 22-05-2021 2:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So, they were expecting to be laid off.

“I remember just saying to one of the managers, jokingly; ‘I’ll probably never see you again, they’ll probably walk away now with the pandemic and take the opportunity’.”
https://www.thejournal.ie/debenhams-workers-2-5444168-May2021/

More the staff were offered this package months ago and didn't take it and after months of not taking it now they have, if you were on the pickets you would be thinking well those months were a total waste of my life, what was the point of that? Shame didn't open the shop even now and sold off the stock. Was extremely busy in the Newry store the 2 times I went up just before it closed down, people were buying a lot in it. Might make liquidators more money that way then sell g it off as bulk to shops or whoever is buying it.

Wanderer2010 · 22-05-2021 6:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That’s a surprise. Not! Trouble makers are never wanted. They did great to last as long as they did. No talent. No work ethic. No ambition.

Trouble is that the small minority are ruining it for the majority.

Thats a real sweeping judgment of the workers. They did their job for years and years and only wanted a fair pay off, fair play to them for trying to stick up for workers rights. Saying they have no talent or ambition is just needlessly mean.

Jerry Attrick · 23-05-2021 11:09am

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Thats a real sweeping judgment of the workers. They did their job for years and years and only wanted a fair pay off, fair play to them for trying to stick up for workers rights. Saying they have no talent or ambition is just needlessly mean.

The dispute had nothing to do with "workers' rights" as what they were looking far went far beyond the 'rights' of every Irish worker made redundant.

The strikers were seeking to benefit from the terms of a 2016 Debenhams redundancy package that had already expired long before Covid 19 came on the scene.

In essence, they wanted money that wasn't there from an insolvent company that no longer existed.

Failing which, they wanted the State to throw more taxpayers' money at them in addition to the €13m in statutory redundancy payments to which they, like every other Irish worker who has become redundant were entitled.

Mrs OBumble · 23-05-2021 12:54pm

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Saying they have no talent or ambition is just needlessly mean.

It's not polite, for sure. But it's not untrue. Debenham closure had been expected for literally years. Anyone with ambition or talent was long gone to a company with better prospects.

23-05-2021 1:05pm

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Thats a real sweeping judgment of the workers. They did their job for years and years and only wanted a fair pay off, fair play to them for trying to stick up for workers rights. Saying they have no talent or ambition is just needlessly mean.

It’s my opinion of the workers who were on strike, a small proportion of the employees who lost their jobs. Some 400 out of 2,000 voted with only 100 rejecting the final deal.

They did their jobs in a business that was obviously failing.

They weren’t sticking up for workers rights. They were demanding twice the statutory redundancy from a company that no longer exists.

Probably a bit harsh, but if they had either talent or ambition, they’d have taken the earlier redundancy offer and moved on to bigger and better things.

Wanderer2010 · 23-05-2021 4:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s my opinion of the workers who were on strike, a small proportion of the employees who lost their jobs. Some 400 out of 2,000 voted with only 100 rejecting the final deal.

They did their jobs in a business that was obviously failing.

They weren’t sticking up for workers rights. They were demanding twice the statutory redundancy from a company that no longer exists.

Probably a bit harsh, but if they had either talent or ambition, they’d have taken the earlier redundancy offer and moved on to bigger and better things.

Well its easy for you to say that but if you were in their shoes, and having received a sh!tty email one day akin to "your jobs are gone, we cant afford redundancy, see ya" im sure you would be angry too and not just roll over. And this statutory redundancy you talk of had to be fought hard for too.

Jerry Attrick · 23-05-2021 5:00pm

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

And this statutory redundancy you talk of had to be fought hard for too.

No it didn't - at least not by the Debenhams strikers/workers!

Evidently you have a somewhat vague understanding of the meaning of the word Statutory!

23-05-2021 5:13pm

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Well its easy for you to say that but if you were in their shoes, and having received a sh!tty email one day akin to "your jobs are gone, we cant afford redundancy, see ya" im sure you would be angry too and not just roll over. And this statutory redundancy you talk of had to be fought hard for too.

Sh1t happens. I’ve been made redundant 3 times in my long working life. Each time was because of changes in working practices due to technical improvements. I had a home to run and children to rear, so wouldn’t have had time for pointless pickets. I just picked myself up and moved on.

All those former employees who were entitled to statutory redundancy will gotten it. Trying to bully the government into paying double was greed. Pure and simple.

mikemac2 · 23-05-2021 6:43pm

Some of the picketers need to get jobs as advisors to government Ministers

Considering they rejected this offer in January and now accepted it I'm amazed at their ability to spin it as a victory. The facebook group has it as #undefeated and #proudanddefiant

Jerry Attrick · 23-05-2021 7:43pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

Some of the picketers need to get jobs as advisors to government Ministers

Considering they rejected this offer in January and now accepted it I'm amazed at their ability to spin it as a victory. The facebook group has it as #undefeated and #proudanddefiant

The truly sad thing is that some of them probably believe it!

Darc19 · 23-05-2021 10:27pm

mikemac2 wrote: »

Some of the picketers need to get jobs as advisors to government Ministers

Considering they rejected this offer in January and now accepted it I'm amazed at their ability to spin it as a victory. The facebook group has it as #undefeated and #proudanddefiant

And a very large and respected retailer walked away from taking over three of the stores last year.

Mandate handled this extraordinarily badly.

domrush · 24-05-2021 10:45pm

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Well its easy for you to say that but if you were in their shoes, and having received a sh!tty email one day akin to "your jobs are gone, we cant afford redundancy, see ya" im sure you would be angry too and not just roll over. And this statutory redundancy you talk of had to be fought hard for too.

The statutory redundancy did not have to be fought for, you clearly haven’t a clue what you are talking about!

Is this the end of Debenhams?

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