Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

sondagefaux · 29-01-2021 9:01pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They've set a precedent now. This is one of the most illogical moves I have ever seen. The EU must have known this would destabilise the situation.

I'm dumbstruck as to how incompetent and ignorant this move is. Was the Irish government given ANY prior notice?

If anything the precedent set is that the Commission shouldn't invoke Article 16 of the Protocol without asking the Irish government first, even if it can formally do so in what it deems to be an emergency.

The most likely outcome of this will be the establishment of a procedure to follow, a protocol if you like, before the Commission uses Article 16 on an emergency basis.

In normal circumstances, neither party can invoke Article 16 without notifying the other party and consulting.

Someone in the Commission screwed this up, VDL better check it wasn't her!

Kermit.de.frog · 29-01-2021 9:04pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its not a great move by the Commission, slightly churlish.

.

It amounts to throwing us under the bus. Incredibly reckless and if I was the Taoiseach I'd be furious at the storm this is going to create in the north.

Unionists will be demanding same from UK govt in relation to the protocol.

Larbre34 · 29-01-2021 9:06pm

Presumably the official responsible for inking the move would be Valdis Drombavkis, executive vice president of the Commission and Commissioner for Trade.

CelticRambler · 29-01-2021 9:06pm

Indestructable wrote: »

EU invoke article 16 in relation to the vaccine. What are the consequences of this? Arlene ain't happy, but that's nothing new.

Edit: She's even said the EU has placed a hard border on the island.

And so the stage is set for the DUP to make a choice: sign up to an all-island-of-Ireland public health strategy, as applies to NI cows and sheep; or pay the price for blind loyalty to Westminster.

Well played, Brussels!

As someone with a direct, first-hand involvement in disease control, that is exactly the kind of move I would have advised; and is typical of decisions that the Brexit fence-sitters are going to have to make from here on. As previously outlined, this is the new reality for the UK: play nice and with a modicum of common sense, or be treated like the other rogue states.

squeekyduck · 29-01-2021 9:08pm

Poor move by the EU. It has used Ireland with consultation.

If I was Irish in NI, I would be fuming that the EU is treating European passport holders like this. This has done damage, no matter how legally correct it is. Not a good day

WhiteMan32 · 29-01-2021 9:11pm

The best thing Arlene could do is to stand (socially distanced) alongside Michelle, Colm & Naomi and remind Ursula that NI voted to Remain in the EU !

tubercolossus · 29-01-2021 9:12pm

Does anyone else get the feeling that the woodwork is suddenly bereft of former inhabitants?

sondagefaux · 29-01-2021 9:19pm

Well that was quick!

The link on the Commission website to the EU Regulation implemeting the use of Artucle 16 of the Protocol no longer works.

Easy come, Von Der Leyen go?

CelticRambler · 29-01-2021 9:20pm

squeekyduck wrote: »

If I was Irish in NI, I would be fuming that the EU is treating European passport holders like this. This has done damage, no matter how legally correct it is. Not a good day

If you were Irish in GB, you could fume just as much. The simple fact of having an "EU" passport doesn't make you immune from the stupidity of Brexit, and this one event is a reminder to all who live in NI (and elsewhere) that NI does not benefit from the best of both worlds. It is still part of the UK, and there will be situations when it is treated as part of the UK ... unless the people there decide to review and revise that status.

Edit: it's also a convenient reminder to all who still believe that the EU is a slow-moving behemoth that it can and does act with remarkable speed when the need arises. A lesson that should not be forgotten by anyone who thinks that they can exploit apparent weaknesses in the new trading relationship with little risk to themselves or others.

sondagefaux · 29-01-2021 9:26pm

WhiteMan32 wrote: »

The best thing Arlene could do is to stand (socially distanced) alongside Michelle, Colm & Naomi and remind Ursula that NI voted to Remain in the EU !

I don't think Arlene or anyone in the DUP can credibly remind anyone that NI voted to Remain.

She would be very swiftly reminded that the fundamental reason for the NI Protocol is because of the dual mandate given to the GFA and the EU by the majority of people in Northern Ireland, both times opposed by the DUP.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-01-2021 9:29pm

sondagefaux wrote: »

Well that was quick!

The link on the Commission website to the EU Regulation implemeting the use of Artucle 16 of the Protocol no longer works.

Easy come, Von Der Leyen go?

This is all coming across as very incompetent.

BlitzKrieg · 29-01-2021 9:29pm

I feel like there is something missing here because the 0 - 11 response from the EU in relation to this is very unusual for the EU, they're more often criticized for being too slow to react to something, so it's a strange how quickly this has gone to 11.

sondagefaux · 29-01-2021 9:32pm

The Regulation that never was?

Daniel Schade @danieldschade
This luckily hasn’t been published in the EU’s official journal yet. The fact that it’s also disappeared from the Commission website despite planned entry into force for tomorrow makes me think it never will-at least in its current form.

https://mobile.twitter.com/danieldschade/status/1355250986311430147

FrancieBrady · 29-01-2021 9:32pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you were Irish in GB, you could fume just as much. The simple fact of having an "EU" passport doesn't make you immune from the stupidity of Brexit, and this one event is a reminder to all who live in NI (and elsewhere) that NI does not benefit from the best of both worlds. It is still part of the UK, and there will be situations when it is treated as part of the UK ... unless the people there decide to review and revise that status.

Edit: it's also a convenient reminder to all who still believe that the EU is a slow-moving behemoth that it can and does act with remarkable speed when the need arises. A lesson that should not be forgotten by anyone who thinks that they can exploit apparent weaknesses in the new trading relationship with little risk to themselves or others.

It was obvious a long time ago that the Irish were going to be collateral damage, as you say. The stupid belief that the protocol and deal were going to save them was a stupid belief.
Brexit is bad for this island, that never changed.

fash · 29-01-2021 9:36pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Unilaterally imposing vaccine controls in an attempt to divert attention from their spectacularly inept handling of the vaccine situation in the EU. After months of huffing and puffing the EU has come to the same conclusions as the rest of us in the world.

the corrupt English kleptocrats have stolen hundreds of millions of vaccines from the EU thereby deliberately murdering tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent EU citizens - how should the EU have expected the British to act in such a perfidious manner?

CelticRambler · 29-01-2021 9:39pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I feel like there is something missing here because the 0 - 11 response from the EU in relation to this is very unusual for the EU, they're more often criticized for being too slow to react to something, so it's a strange how quickly this has gone to 11.

Not that unusual, when the circumstances require it. When the Swiss voted to restrict freedom of movement, the EU response was fast and brutal. What's missing, as you say, is only the background info to which we are not (yet) privy, but you can be pretty damn sure that "Brussels" has found a suspiciously Brexity smoking gun - probably, given the timing, in the Astra Zeneca archives they've been going through this week.

Edit: my hunch - they found a delivery note for an early consignment of vaccine, supplied from the Belgian site, to a NI distributor amongst others. NI has quite a healthy pharma sector (I've been using some made-in-NI products in France this week).

seamus · 29-01-2021 9:45pm

I see all the EU skeptics have appeared just in time to declare this a "major blunder" by the EU.

It's inflammatory perhaps, but necessary given all the messing that's been going on with Astrazeneca.

They haven't "broken" the Brexit agreement, or otherwise overstepped the bounds.

Article 16 is designed to permit either side to take emergency action to protect economic or social interests, AND it triggers both parties to engage in discussions to rectify the problem.

In effect the EU are twisting Johnson's arm. The UK has so far refused to get involved in the Astrazeneca mess, presumably because it benefits the UK.

Now he has no choice but to get involved. Most likely the outcome will be an agreement to split delivery of vaccines more equitably between the UK and EU rather than the UK having their entire order fulfilled.

RobMc59 · 29-01-2021 9:45pm

fash wrote: »

the corrupt English kleptocrats have stolen hundreds of millions of vaccines from the EU thereby deliberately murdering tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent EU citizens - how should the EU have expected the British to act in such a perfidious manner?

If van der layden and brussels want to act like tin pot dictator Idi Amin that`s up to them but blaming others for their own shortcomings does`nt cut it.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-01-2021 9:48pm

seamus wrote: »

I see all the EU skeptics have appeared just in time to declare this a "major blunder" by the EU.

It's inflammatory perhaps, but necessary given all the messing that's been going on with Astrazeneca.

They haven't "broken" the Brexit agreement, or otherwise overstepped the bounds.

Article 16 is designed to permit either side to take emergency action to protect economic or social interests, AND it triggers both parties to engage in discussions to rectify the problem.

In effect the EU are twisting Johnson's arm. The UK has so far refused to get involved in the Astrazeneca mess, presumably because it benefits the UK.

Now he has no choice but to get involved. Most likely the outcome will be an agreement to split delivery of vaccines more equitably between the UK and EU rather than the UK having their entire order fulfilled.

So your view is that the commission has not shown themselves to be utterly incompetent today but rather are playing 4D chess?

yagan · 29-01-2021 9:49pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

If van der layden and brussels want to act like tin pot dictator Idi Amin that`s up to them but blaming others for their own shortcomings does`nt cut it.

If the EU portion of vaccine went to the UK thanks to a bribe then the real question mark is over the trustworthiness of their output.

Amirani · 29-01-2021 9:50pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So your view is that the commission has not shown themselves to be utterly incompetent today but rather are playing 4D chess?

Given it's not clear what has actually happened, then I'm not sure we can say either.

Most reporters who've been reporting on this have said they've received conflicting reports.

sondagefaux · 29-01-2021 9:50pm

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I feel like there is something missing here because the 0 - 11 response from the EU in relation to this is very unusual for the EU, they're more often criticized for being too slow to react to something, so it's a strange how quickly this has gone to 11.

Not really. The EU has every right to be outraged at Astra Zeneca who have clearly not paid any heed to the provisions of their contract with the EU concerning supplying the EU with vaccine doses from production facilities in the UK, specifically set out in the contract, which also contains a declaration from AZ that they were not aware of any provision in any other contract that would inhibit or prevent them from performing their contract with the EU.

The EU has every right to prevent companies that it has contracts with from sending vacvine doses out if the EU until the doses they have contracted to supply to theEU have been supplied, and it has exempted most if its neighbours (with one obvious exception!) and ALL of the least-developed countries from this.

We're not talking about office supplies here. These are life-saving vaccines and AZ has screwed the EU over, with or without the participation of the UK.

The Commission has screwed up by invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol without consulting Ireland even if it has got the legal power to deem this an emergency and do so (normally neither party can).

Judging by the reaction of the Irish government, and the disappearance of the proposed Regulation from websites, the screw up has been dealt with.

Now we sit back and see who takes responsibility...

29-01-2021 9:54pm

seamus wrote: »

I see all the EU skeptics have appeared just in time to declare this a "major blunder" by the EU.

It's inflammatory perhaps, but necessary given all the messing that's been going on with Astrazeneca.

They haven't "broken" the Brexit agreement, or otherwise overstepped the bounds.

Article 16 is designed to permit either side to take emergency action to protect economic or social interests, AND it triggers both parties to engage in discussions to rectify the problem.

In effect the EU are twisting Johnson's arm. The UK has so far refused to get involved in the Astrazeneca mess, presumably because it benefits the UK.

Now he has no choice but to get involved. Most likely the outcome will be an agreement to split delivery of vaccines more equitably between the UK and EU rather than the UK having their entire order fulfilled.

I suppose it really depends on the details of the contracts signed between all the parties concerned, If Astrazeneca's legal team have screwed up by promising both parties the equivalent of over 100% of production then it's their mess to sort out.
The EU throwing the toys out of the pram by demanding product that was already destined for another customer is simply not on.

Professor Moriarty · 29-01-2021 9:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose it really depends on the details of the contracts signed between all the parties concerned, If Astrazeneca's legal team have screwed up by promising both parties the equivalent of over 100% of production then it's their mess to sort out.
The EU throwing the toys out of the pram by demanding product that was already destined for another customer is simply not on.

Except that's not the case. The contract was made public today. Very reluctantly by AZ with good reason as it turns out.

29-01-2021 9:59pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Except that's not the case. The contract was made public today. Very reluctantly by AZ with good reason as it turns out.

With huge (& important) sections redacted, what was in the blanks?

RobMc59 · 29-01-2021 9:59pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I guessed you missed the 5 years of nationalistic (English nationalism that is) rhetoric aimed at Ireland and EU up to and including a threat to starve Ireland and send in warships to shoot fishermen.

Now that the boot is on other foot your posts seem hysterical. You will find it hard to find many people in Ireland sympathetic to UK anymore. The amount of reputation and soft power damage done is incredible. Truly a nation led by donkeys.

I`d disagree with most of your post and despite my frequent `breaks` from this thread have been here for some time.

FrancieBrady · 29-01-2021 9:59pm

Don't we have a Commissioner? What is Mairead McGuinness's role here. Should she not be relaying back to Dublin what is going on?

Professor Moriarty · 29-01-2021 10:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

With huge (& important) sections redacted, what was in the blanks?

I don't know because it was redacted. What was made public clearly shows that AZ's claim that they should supply the UK before the EU is not valid.

squeekyduck · 29-01-2021 10:00pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

If you were Irish in GB, you could fume just as much. The simple fact of having an "EU" passport doesn't make you immune from the stupidity of Brexit, and this one event is a reminder to all who live in NI (and elsewhere) that NI does not benefit from the best of both worlds. It is still part of the UK, and there will be situations when it is treated as part of the UK ... unless the people there decide to review and revise that status.

Edit: it's also a convenient reminder to all who still believe that the EU is a slow-moving behemoth that it can and does act with remarkable speed when the need arises. A lesson that should not be forgotten by anyone who thinks that they can exploit apparent weaknesses in the new trading relationship with little risk to themselves or others.

We know that Brexit is a car crash,but we are where we are. It would still be wise for the EU, from a diplomatic point of view to treat NI as if it part of a United Ireland and get Dublin on board to resolve. Its a major EU muscle flex that the Brexiters are loving, especially the DUP!

Amirani · 29-01-2021 10:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU throwing the toys out of the pram by demanding product that was already destined for another customer is simply not on.

When you've largely funded the development of said product under the stipulation that you receive priority access to it - access that is enshrined in contract, then I think some throwing toys out of the pram is justified.

Amirani · 29-01-2021 10:01pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't we have a Commissioner? What is Mairead McGuinness's role here. Should she not be relaying back to Dublin what is going on?

Was thinking the same.

Jizique · 29-01-2021 10:01pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't we have a Commissioner? What is Mairead McGuinness's role here. Should she not be relaying back to Dublin what is going on?

She is in charge of financial services, nothing to do with this issue

squeekyduck · 29-01-2021 10:04pm

seamus wrote: »

I see all the EU skeptics have appeared just in time to declare this a "major blunder" by the EU.

It's inflammatory perhaps, but necessary given all the messing that's been going on with Astrazeneca.

They haven't "broken" the Brexit agreement, or otherwise overstepped the bounds.

Article 16 is designed to permit either side to take emergency action to protect economic or social interests, AND it triggers both parties to engage in discussions to rectify the problem.

In effect the EU are twisting Johnson's arm. The UK has so far refused to get involved in the Astrazeneca mess, presumably because it benefits the UK.

Now he has no choice but to get involved. Most likely the outcome will be an agreement to split delivery of vaccines more equitably between the UK and EU rather than the UK having their entire order fulfilled.

Just because one criticises the EU does not make them EU sceptics!

Amirani · 29-01-2021 10:05pm

Jizique wrote: »

She is in charge of financial services, nothing to do with this issue

It's your understanding that just the relevant Commissioner and the Commission President make a decision on something like this alone? That the rest of the Commission isn't involved?

HalfAndHalf · 29-01-2021 10:07pm

Amirani wrote: »

When you've largely funded the development of said product under the stipulation that you receive priority access to it - access that is enshrined in contract, then I think some throwing toys out of the pram is justified.

But that isn’t what happened. It’s been widely covered now that the EU simply funded the expansion of AZ European plants, in the hope that that would yield faster supplies. Unfortunately due to issues at the Belgian plant this hasn’t as yet been the case.

Also, the contract does not mention priority supplies. It simply states that the initial 300 million doses will be supplied exclusively to EU countries from the EU plants, with a clause for an additional 100 million from EU, U.K. plants and plants in other countries.

FrancieBrady · 29-01-2021 10:07pm

Jizique wrote: »

She is in charge of financial services, nothing to do with this issue

Is she not a member of the Commission?

ujjjjjjjjj · 29-01-2021 10:08pm

Staggering behaviour from the EU. No consultation with the Irish Government and they invoke Article 16 and bypass the cherished Northern Ireland Protocol in one rash decision. If the UK did this there would be outrage. People you need to wake up. The EU have shown in two seconds exactly how important Ireland and the peace process is......i.e not at all important in their eyes and only something to be used when it suits them (i.e during the Brexit negs to bash the UK).

UK are making serious progess with the vaccine roleout, EU have made a total hash of it and now throwing toys out of the pram.

HalfAndHalf · 29-01-2021 10:13pm

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Staggering behaviour from the EU. No consultation with the Irish Government and they invoke Article 16 and bypass the cherished Northern Ireland Protocol in one rash decision. If the UK did this there would be outrage. People you need to wake up. The EU have shown in two seconds exactly how important Ireland and the peace process is......i.e not at all important in their eyes and only something to be used when it suits them (i.e during the Brexti negs to bash the UK).

UK are making serious progess with the vaccine roleout, EU have made a total hash of it and now throwing toys out of the pram.

It’s worse than that. Remember the outrage at the proposed internal market bill from the Tories!! The EC have invoked article 16 and completely ignored the process. They should inform the U.K., they should then both sit down and discuss with the new joint committee to try to resolve before invoking it.

Effectively they’ve broken international law.

And let’s not forget it’s looking like we weren’t even informed!!

And as you say, if the Brits has done it they’d be outrage, especially from old Bernie and the impact of effectively creating a border and the GFA.

It’s gone very wrong at the moment!

Imreoir2 · 29-01-2021 10:14pm

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Staggering behaviour from the EU. No consultation with the Irish Government and they invoke Article 16 and bypass the cherished Northern Ireland Protocol in one rash decision. If the UK did this there would be outrage. People you need to wake up. The EU have shown in two seconds exactly how important Ireland and the peace process is......i.e not at all important in their eyes and only something to be used when it suits them (i.e during the Brexit negs to bash the UK).

UK are making serious progess with the vaccine roleout, EU have made a total hash of it and now throwing toys out of the pram.

Seemingly it only took a phone call from the Taoiseach to reverse the decision to trigger Article 16.

As for the EU making a hash of the vaccine, I don't see why its the EU's fault that AZ has proved to be so unreliable.

Kermit.de.frog · 29-01-2021 10:15pm

Is there a link to this decision having been reversed?

HalfAndHalf · 29-01-2021 10:15pm

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Seemingly it only took a phone call from the Taoiseach to reverse the decision to trigger Article 16.

As for the EU making a hash of the vaccine, I don't see why its the EU's fault that AZ has proved to be so unreliable.

Pfizer have been just as unreliable and they’re producing from Belgium as well and that was the exact same reason for delays. Clearly something amiss with the plant there.

A Dub in Glasgo · 29-01-2021 10:15pm

Seems very ham-fisted from the EU today

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1355259285681430530

Jizique · 29-01-2021 10:18pm

Amirani wrote: »

It's your understanding that just the relevant Commissioner and the Commission President make a decision on something like this alone? That the rest of the Commission isn't involved?

The role of a commissioner is not to represent the interests of the country from which she comes

Amirani · 29-01-2021 10:18pm

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

It’s worse than that. Remember the outrage at the proposed internal market bill from the Tories!! The EC have invoked article 16 and completely ignored the process. They should inform the U.K., they should then both sit down and discuss with the new joint committee to try to resolve before invoking it.

Effectively they’ve broken international law.

You can't "effectively" break international law. You either break it or you don't.

I'm sure you're well qualified to determine the legal nature of this based on the Tweets you've read and will clarify for us soon enough. Thanks in advance.

FrancieBrady · 29-01-2021 10:18pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is there a link to this decision having been reversed?

Tony Connelly, and all the reliable EU journos on twitter reporting it is likely.

sondagefaux · 29-01-2021 10:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose it really depends on the details of the contracts signed between all the parties concerned, If Astrazeneca's legal team have screwed up by promising both parties the equivalent of over 100% of production then it's their mess to sort out.
The EU throwing the toys out of the pram by demanding product that was already destined for another customer is simply not on.

The contract between the EU and Astra Zeneca stipulates that AZ is not aware of any other contractual obligations that would prevent it performing its contract with the EU.

AZ has screwed up, it didn't anticipate the degree of differences between the different production sites, hasn't been upfront witb the EU, and hasn't acknowledged the contract with the EU specifically says that it will supply the EU with vaccine doses from UK production facilities with no caveats about proritising supply to the UK from these facilities.

When there were problems with supplying the UK from UK production facilities, Astra Zenreca used facilities in the EU, the Netherlands, to supply the UK.

yagan · 29-01-2021 10:19pm

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Staggering behaviour from the EU. No consultation with the Irish Government and they invoke Article 16 and bypass the cherished Northern Ireland Protocol in one rash decision. If the UK did this there would be outrage. People you need to wake up. The EU have shown in two seconds exactly how important Ireland and the peace process is......i.e not at all important in their eyes and only something to be used when it suits them (i.e during the Brexit negs to bash the UK).

UK are making serious progess with the vaccine roleout, EU have made a total hash of it and now throwing toys out of the pram.

Brand new account eh?

Anyhow this was about the UK knowingly inveighling a production portion that was contracted for the EU.

The way the DUP and Micheal Martin are crowing you'd swear NI wasn't still part of the UK.

ujjjjjjjjj · 29-01-2021 10:20pm

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

So what do you recommend that is done about this?

Try not acting like spoilt children, the EU needs to know acknowledge that it made serious mistakes with the vaccine role out. Sit down with AZ and rather than threating them work with them to assist them in getting their EURO factories up to speed. You heard AZ CEO there is a best endeavours clause in the supply contract so the EU can go nuts if they want but legally they haven't a leg to stand on. AZ is full steam ahead supplying the Brits as they got the finger out, took some chances, took some shortcuts and got the vaccine approved and rolling quickly. AZ is delighted to be moving as fast as possible in the UK and honouring that contract as they moved first and got behind AZ. Yes lots the UK has done has been less than ideal with COVID but Boris has got the vaccine roleout right. The uncomfortable truth for all the Euro lot is that the EU has made a total mess of this whole thing and it is going to delay the vaccine roleout in Ireland and the rest of Europe.

The EU is very slow with big decisions and always has been, the UK has shown that an independent country can act faster and take calculated risks that Brussels never will.

FrancieBrady · 29-01-2021 10:20pm

Jizique wrote: »

The role of a commissioner is not to represent the interests of the country from which she comes

Nobody said anything about representation. Communication seems to be the issue.

hotmail.com · 29-01-2021 10:20pm

The head of the Church of England has condemned the move.

This surely must mean that Ursula will have to resign when this resolved. She is clearly a hot head.

Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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