Green Party disintegration / split

Eric Cartman · 05-02-2021 1:14pm

MacronvFrugals wrote: »

Probably on Kathleen Funchion's transfers also

thats it, on the 'anyone but ff/fg / vote 'left' brigade

MacronvFrugals · 05-02-2021 1:18pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it, on the 'anyone but ff/fg / vote 'left' brigade

Same with Dublin central, in the days before GE2020 SF advocated locally for Neasa Hourigan transfers from Mary Lou.

Lol getting in off the back of lefties then trying to push through investor courts without debate, Ryan will be left all alone surrounded by advisors by the end of the year.

jimmycrackcorm · 05-02-2021 1:41pm

MacronvFrugals wrote:

100%, Ryan and the wealthy gardeners forget it was the #VoteLeftTransferLeft campaign that helped them out big time.

That's not true, if it was the case then Saoirse McHugh would have gotten elected in at least one.

People vote green from all quarters for environmental reasons. You might be right or left, but you'll give them transfers for that reason.

Brussels Sprout · 05-02-2021 1:48pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the handful of outspoken green voters I've ever met in my life always fit the same profile

lives in a wealthy Dublin suburb
cycle on the weekend for fun
2x new SUV in the driveway on pcp changed every 3 years
au-pair or house cleaner or both a few days a week
females of the house vegan or veggie and tell you about it.
Irish times bought every day.
Not a shred of knowledge of how the ordinary person can't live like them.

Obviously theres a lot of green voters who are the student or 20 something children of people like this who do not yet have that lifestyle , but its always a similar outcome.

The Green Party is there for upper middle class city dwellers and suburbanites who already have great access to services and public transport.

There is literally no apetite for the greens in rural, working class or outside m50 commuter demographics.

Again that's a lazy stereotype. My friends and family literally check none of those boxes (apart from one of them who does commute to work by bicycle). They aren't students in their 20's or the children of wealthy parents either.

Now I'm not saying that those people that you describe do not exist. Of course they do. I'm saying don't be under the impression that that caricature describes the majority of Green party voters. All you have to do is look at the raw numbers. There's no way that 7.1% of the electorate falls into that narrow description

There are plenty of normal, working people, earning average salaries, living in normal areas (mostly in urban areas - a smaller % in rural areas), who are concerned enough about the ramping up of climate change and the breakdown of the environment that they voted Green.

MacronvFrugals · 05-02-2021 1:52pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's not true, if it was the case then Saoirse McHugh would have gotten elected in at least one.

People vote green from all quarters for environmental reasons. You might be right or left, but you'll give them transfers for that reason.

They do indeed but it wont produce 10 seats, take Dublin Central not a chance in hell that goes Green without the nod from SF, Ryan knew this well hence his previous opposition to CETA.

I voted Green myself because i actually thought they had better ideals than some bike lanes, this CETA bill has annoyed me and I'd imagine many others and for what? to have some shiny bicycle lanes in return for investor courts.

Saoirse getting over 6000 votes in Mayo was quite impressive i thought.

Eric Cartman · 05-02-2021 2:24pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

That's not true, if it was the case then Saoirse McHugh would have gotten elected in at least one.

People vote green from all quarters for environmental reasons. You might be right or left, but you'll give them transfers for that reason.

Saoirses marxist views and rabble rousing reactionary style of politics made her unelectable to many , she is not a barometer of the Green Party.

Imreoir2 · 05-02-2021 11:07pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the handful of outspoken green voters I've ever met in my life always fit the same profile

lives in a wealthy Dublin suburb
cycle on the weekend for fun
2x new SUV in the driveway on pcp changed every 3 years
au-pair or house cleaner or both a few days a week
females of the house vegan or veggie and tell you about it.
Irish times bought every day.
Not a shred of knowledge of how the ordinary person can't live like them.

Obviously theres a lot of green voters who are the student or 20 something children of people like this who do not yet have that lifestyle , but its always a similar outcome.

The Green Party is there for upper middle class city dwellers and suburbanites who already have great access to services and public transport.

There is literally no apetite for the greens in rural, working class or outside m50 commuter demographics.

I'm a Green voter.

-I live in a fairly small town and come from rural Ireland about 6 miles from the nearest vllage.
-I cycle to the shops regularly, and sometimes in the evening for fun.
-I have 0 SUVs and would never buy one
-No au-pair, and I'm the house cleaner in my house.
-The female does not eat red meat for health reasons
-I buy the local paper once a week
-I am a very ordinary person

Oymyakon · 06-02-2021 12:28pm

Is the Just Transition Greens or similar left wing group a realistic electoral political party going forward? I understand PBP have recently rebranded themselves as eco socialists. Can the current Green Party win back respect of the electorate with a change of leadership/internal politics or is a completely fresh body required to rejuvenate green politics in Ireland.

Eric Cartman · 06-02-2021 1:08pm

Oymyakon wrote: »

Is the Just Transition Greens or similar left wing group a realistic electoral political party going forward? I understand PBP have recently rebranded themselves as eco socialists. Can the current Green Party win back respect of the electorate with a change of leadership/internal politics or is a completely fresh body required to rejuvenate green politics in Ireland.

Theyre done for in the next election. Green supporters will think they made too many concessions , non green supporters think theyve done too much harm , its always the way with coalitions here though, the small party suffers

Oymyakon · 06-02-2021 1:13pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Theyre done for in the next election. Green supporters will think they made too many concessions , non green supporters think theyve done too much harm , its always the way with coalitions here though, the small party suffers

As it stands it’s hard to see anyone bar Eamon, Catherine and Joe retaining their seats. Neasa may as well but will she even be a Green next time around?

Eric Cartman · 06-02-2021 1:20pm

Oymyakon wrote: »

As it stands it’s hard to see anyone bar Eamon, Catherine and Joe retaining their seats. Neasa may as well but will she even be a Green next time around?

I actually dont think ryan will keep his, like whats his legacy here, 350 million quid for cycling infrastructure and falling asleep in the convention centre a few times.

Oymyakon · 06-02-2021 1:31pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I actually dont think ryan will keep his, like whats his legacy here, 350 million quid for cycling infrastructure and falling asleep in the convention centre a few times.

No doubt he’ll have some solid green wins to bring back to the electorate, as much as I don’t rate his GP leadership, I think he’s delivering some good ‘on paper’ green policies, notably the ban on new oil & gas exploration this week. He has a solid enough base there to retain a vote, don’t forget he topped the poll last year.

Could be proven completely wrong though!

Eric Cartman · 06-02-2021 2:00pm

Oymyakon wrote: »

No doubt he’ll have some solid green wins to bring back to the electorate, as much as I don’t rate his GP leadership, I think he’s delivering some good ‘on paper’ green policies, notably the ban on new oil & gas exploration this week. He has a solid enough base there to retain a vote, don’t forget he topped the poll last year.

Could be proven completely wrong though!

If the price of petrol rises by 10 cent that will hurt him, obviously oil and gas exploration permits are at an arms length to petrol prices but its easy to conflate the two and stir up anti green sentiment.

I personally think Ireland should be maximising domestic energy production until such a time as nuclear becomes acceptable or renewables viable so think that green policy is very short sighted.

Oymyakon · 06-02-2021 2:24pm

I actually think the oil and gas thing is nothing more than setting a nice precedent as Ireland banning new exploration licenses is obviously a drop in the pond globally as we will just import energy from abroad until such a time we can be self sufficient in renewables or nuclear.

I’m no expert in renewable potential in Ireland but if the possibility is there, what we really need to be doing is throwing the kitchen sink at our renewable energy projects to become a global leader in clean energy.

I also believe in the transport and balanced regional development aspect of the Irish Green Party’s election programme. But as you correctly stated, this is all short sighted unless we get ahead of our energy requirements for the future.

PommieBast · 06-02-2021 3:32pm

Oymyakon wrote: »

Is the Just Transition Greens or similar left wing group a realistic electoral political party going forward? I understand PBP have recently rebranded themselves as eco socialists.

A major problem with the Green movement is that it has been sucked into the orbit of leftwing virtue signalling, where whatever party is in vogue soon falls into acrimony and gets wiped out at the subsequent election. Rinse repeat. Problem is that I am not sure if a purely ecological party that is comfortable with more rightwing non-green policies will get anywhere.

Leonard Hofstadter · 06-02-2021 4:41pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If the price of petrol rises by 10 cent that will hurt him, obviously oil and gas exploration permits are at an arms length to petrol prices but its easy to conflate the two and stir up anti green sentiment.

I personally think Ireland should be maximising domestic energy production until such a time as nuclear becomes acceptable or renewables viable so think that green policy is very short sighted.

Won't make any difference to him, his base is Dublin Bay South, plenty of the type of people you so eloquently described, they can afford a 10-20 cent hike in a litre of petrol or diesel in their sleep. It would probably increase his vote share if anything - mind you I've been quite surprised at the level of opposition to the cycle lanes in Sandymount, just goes to show people are only interested in virtue signalling on the environment as long as it doesn't inconvenience them.

Sam Russell · 06-02-2021 4:56pm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Won't make any difference to him, his base is Dublin Bay South, plenty of the type of people you so eloquently described, they can afford a 10-20 cent hike in a litre of petrol or diesel in their sleep. It would probably increase his vote share if anything - mind you I've been quite surprised at the level of opposition to the cycle lanes in Sandymount, just goes to show people are only interested in virtue signalling on the environment as long as it doesn't inconvenience them.

Well the plan for the Sandymount cycle lanes forgets to make place for north bound traffic. That ends up with that traffic going through roads that are too residential. The current plan will increase pressure on Merrion Road.

They needed to complete the replacement bridge for the Merrion Gates.

L1011 · 09-02-2021 3:21pm

Sunday Times expecting Patrick Costello (Hazel Chu's husband) and Nessa Hourigan to vote against CETA and hence be booted from the parliamentary party; with Una Power, Cllr in Dun Laoghaire to walk if the party is whipped to vote for CETA.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/green-rebels-neasa-hourigan-and-patrick-costello-poised-to-quit-over-ceta-deal-5bj8jr5r7

Brussels Sprout · 09-02-2021 7:38pm

Hourigan was always one of the most likely to go. She came out very strongly against going into coalition and then seemed to be annoyed when she was passed over for a ministry.

Costello didn't back going into government either but I figured he'd likely stay as long as his wife was Lord Mayor. With some sitting TDs jumping ship the starting of a new party would move closer.

If they did start a new party that would be kinda nuts since the Dail already has at least 1 TD from each of the following:

Sinn Fein
Green Party
Social Democrats
Labour
PBP
Solidarity
Rise
I4C

Perhaps if they got their act together and stopped fragmenting the left might have actually led a government by now!

L1011 · 09-02-2021 7:44pm

Chu's mayoral term ends at the end of June - whether the Greens can hold together long enough to get to then could be questionable.

Further crumbling on DCC could threaten the remaining years of the mayoral rotation; Labour, SD and I'm presuming FF again in whatever order.

Brussels Sprout · 22-03-2021 8:52pm

Revealing who broke ranks: Hourigan, O' Brien and Martin and her husband.

Green Party deputy leader Catherine Martin has signed nomination papers for Lord Mayor of Dublin Hazel Chu whose nomination for the Seanad the party had refused to support.

The Green Party leadership had held back on endorsing Ms Chu’s candidacy, as it believed she stood little chance of winning a seat. The party said on Monday that it was not putting forward a candidate and that Ms Chu “is not contesting the election as a Green Party candidate”.

However, alongside Ms Martin, several other Green Party members have defied some in the party leadership to sign Ms Chu’s nomination papers. They include Minister of State Joe O’Brien, and Neasa Hourigan, both of whom voted against the Government last year, Francis Noel Duffy TD and Seantor Vincent Martin. Mr Duffy is married to Ms Martin and Mr Martin is her brother.

She also secured nominations from Senators Eileen Flynn and Lynn Ruane, said sources, and Independent TD Marian Harkin.

link

L1011 · 22-03-2021 9:01pm

Its not "little chance", its zero chance. Other non-FF/FG candidates are aware they're doing it for PR - I would hope Chu realises this too.

awec · 22-03-2021 10:20pm

It must be nearly time for Ryan to start actually wielding the stick?

Geuze · 23-03-2021 1:46am

Who died to cause this by-election?

Sparko · 23-03-2021 2:12am

Geuze wrote: »

Who died to cause this by-election?

No deaths, two resignations.

"One vacancy arose after former Fine Gael senator Michael D’Arcy resigned to become chief executive of the Irish Association of Investment Managers.

Former Sinn F senator Elisha McCallion also resigned following a controversy over Covid-19 grants in Northern Ireland."

Taken from here:
https://www.thejournal.ie/hazel-chu-seanad-by-election-5388721-Mar2021/

Brussels Sprout · 23-03-2021 11:26am

Sparko wrote: »

senator Michael D’Arcy resigned to become chief executive of the Irish Association of Investment Managers.

Tell me he's a member of FG without telling me he's in FG.

Larbre34 · 23-03-2021 6:02pm

Eamon Ryan coming up shortly on Newstalk with Cuddihy. Could be a clubbing.

Amirani · 23-03-2021 6:06pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Eamon Ryan coming up shortly on Newstalk with Cuddihy. Could be a clubbing.

Will largely be about Climate Action Bill I'd imagine.

Sam Russell · 23-03-2021 7:48pm

Amirani wrote: »

Will largely be about Climate Action Bill I'd imagine.

Or Hazel Chu running for the Senate.

gormdubhgorm · 24-03-2021 12:33am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Or Hazel Chu running for the Senate.

Was there a reason given why she is running independent?

awec · 24-03-2021 9:52am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Was there a reason given why she is running independent?

Greens wouldn't endorse her as they don't believe she has a chance of winning.

Chu seems pretty eager to get into the senate. I think she has tried to be nominated before. I believe she has also approached some independents looking for an endorsement since she's technically not a green candidate.

The move smacks of absolute careerism to be honest and is just another example of the GP being full of people who don't really suit being in a party. What is the point in being in the Greens if you're happy to ditch it and go solo to run for a cosier position?

Like if she managed to get elected as an independent senator is she going to vote against any government bills, and therefore against her own party?

Eamon Ryan needs to start wielding the stick to those in his party who are not toeing the line.

Sam Russell · 24-03-2021 10:59am

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Was there a reason given why she is running independent?

I would imagine that she is running as an independent because the Green Party (ER) refused her a nomination. This is, I assume, a Programme for Government commitment. ER is allowing the split to happen.

PommieBast · 24-03-2021 11:00am

When I read about it, the first thing that sprang to mind is why she and/or those TDs who nominated her have not been suspended/expelled. Many parties have rules specifically against such stuff.

blanch152 · 24-03-2021 11:36am

Amirani wrote: »

Will largely be about Climate Action Bill I'd imagine.

The Climate Action Bill is of far more importance to Ryan than the political aspirations of a Green councillor. The Greens are in politics to achieve radical progress against climate change. That is what the bill is about.

Sam Russell · 24-03-2021 11:48am

blanch152 wrote: »

The Climate Action Bill is of far more importance to Ryan than the political aspirations of a Green councillor. The Greens are in politics to achieve radical progress against climate change. That is what the bill is about.

But why is ER going on about minor rural railways when it is obvious to all that they are just money pits, and saying the M20 will cost €3 billion, when it is unlikely to exceed €1 billion? Where did that figure come from? The M20 is one motorway that they should support because it is needed for safety alone - put a toll on it if the car traffic needs curbing.

He opposed the Metrolink project because of a ginger group near Dunville Avenue opposed it and they are in his constituency, while Metrolink should be a major GREEN project ticking all green attributes - public transport, moves people out of cars, fully electric, major flag project, etc etc. What is not to like from a Green perspective? Well, ER found some things.

Reminds one of 'the first thing on the agenda for an Irish political party is the split'.

L1011 · 24-03-2021 2:12pm

PommieBast wrote: »

When I read about it, the first thing that sprang to mind is why she and/or those TDs who nominated her have not been suspended/expelled. Many parties have rules specifically against such stuff.

Remember this is the party that barely noticed Ministers breaking the whip.

Chips Lovell · 24-03-2021 4:00pm

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's frequently said of smaller left wing parties that they're too prone to splits and thus never get big enough to gain a bit of critical mass, whereas the larger parties tend to be able to accommodate or live with internal fractiousness a lot better.

Perhaps it's to Ryan's credit and a sign of the party's growing maturity that he hasn't gone gangbusters on the dissenters?

awec · 24-03-2021 4:05pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's frequently said of smaller left wing parties that they're too prone splits and thus never get big enough to gain a bit of critical mass, whereas the larger parties tend to be able to accommodate or live with internal fractiousness a lot better.

Perhaps it's to Ryan's credit and a sign of the party's growing maturity that he hasn't gone gangbusters on the dissenters?

What use are the TDs to him if they cannot be relied upon to vote with the party when they're told to?

gormdubhgorm · 24-03-2021 4:14pm

awec wrote: »

Chu seems pretty eager to get into the senate. I think she has tried to be nominated before. I believe she has also approached some independents looking for an endorsement since she's technically not a green candidate.

The move smacks of absolute careerism to be honest and is just another example of the GP being full of people who don't really suit being in a party. What is the point in being in the Greens if you're happy to ditch it and go solo to run for a cosier position?

The senate has to be the cushiest number in Irish politics. Amazed the Irish people voted to keep in that referendum.

Amirani · 24-03-2021 4:38pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's frequently said of smaller left wing parties that they're too prone splits and thus never get big enough to gain a bit of critical mass, whereas the larger parties tend to be able to accommodate or live with internal fractiousness a lot better.

Perhaps it's to Ryan's credit and a sign of the party's growing maturity that he hasn't gone gangbusters on the dissenters?

This is all moot if Village Magazine is anything to go by...

https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1374274483570233348

"exceptionally well-developed range of progressive policies, structures and strategies."

A new party on the left is exactly what our political system has been crying out for. This will solve everything, and splits on the left will be a thing of the past because of these exceptionally well developed policies. Just LOOK at their folder structure, impressive!

awec · 24-03-2021 4:56pm

Village Magazine are some jokers. Aside from the whole yet-another-party silliness it's odd to see a publication so openly happy to drop any notion of journalism in order to post what is blatantly just PR.

Who do we think would be in this new watermelon party? Odds for McHugh or Bogue being involved?

L1011 · 24-03-2021 5:03pm

That'll just be Just Transition Green splitting off and I wouldn't be surprised if they do some fudge to let TDs that join it hang on as Ryan GP whipped / dual members like the Coop Party in the UK

Chips Lovell · 24-03-2021 5:51pm

awec wrote: »

What use are the TDs to him if they cannot be relied upon to vote with the party when they're told to?

As long as they don't vote against you on confidence or budget issues, you remain in government and get to implement your portions of the programme for government.

Amirani wrote: »

This is all moot if Village Magazine is anything to go by...

True. As I said, devil's advocate. But I guess, even if the malcontents left, it does reflect well on Ryan that he wasn't the one to force a split.

Brussels Sprout · 24-03-2021 6:41pm

Dun dun dun [Dramatic Music]

https://twitter.com/aoifegracemoore/status/1374767830781071360

hotmail.com · 24-03-2021 6:42pm

Some of the Green Party want Hazel to be sacked from the party.

Great to see the party ripping itself apart so publicly.

I'm not quite sure Hazel is in the right party.

Brussels Sprout · 24-03-2021 6:42pm

Be some laugh if by some miracle she got elected making those 3 her party colleagues in the upper house.

24-03-2021 6:45pm

Amirani wrote: »

This is all moot if Village Magazine is anything to go by...

https://twitter.com/VillageMagIRE/status/1374274483570233348

"exceptionally well-developed range of progressive policies, structures and strategies."

A new party on the left is exactly what our political system has been crying out for. This will solve everything, and splits on the left will be a thing of the past because of these exceptionally well developed policies. Just LOOK at their folder structure, impressive!

i taught RISE was the green party of left?

That being said,eamonn ryan has overseen a rather remarkable purge of progressive voices from within the green party

Wheter by accident or design,he has removed/forced out nearly all opposition to his leadership

hotmail.com · 24-03-2021 6:48pm

This reminds me of the Eamon Ryan 'n' word stuff last year. The only ones who criticised him were from his own party.

Leonard Hofstadter · 24-03-2021 7:04pm

Eamon Ryan delivered their best ever result last year and brought the party back from the dead, got the highest approval from the membership of his party out of all three parties in Government for going into Government, and look at what his 'reward' has been from a certain branch of his own party.

Well I suppose as the Greens themselves would say, they like to do things differently. It's like UK Labour, they'd rather be out of power if it means holding onto their principles rather than being in there and trying to implement the things they believe are worth fighting for. The mind truly boggles.

hotmail.com · 24-03-2021 7:18pm

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

Eamon Ryan delivered their best ever result last year and brought the party back from the dead, got the highest approval from the membership of his party out of all three parties in Government, and look at what his 'reward' has been from a certain branch of his own party.

Well I suppose as the Greens themselves would say, they like to do things differently. It's like UK Labour, they'd rather be out of power if it means holding onto their principles rather than being in there and trying to implement the things they believe are worth fighting for. The mind truly boggles.

It seems to me that newer members of the party are driven more by social justice issues rather than Green issues.

The Green Party is and always was about Green/environment issues and everything else is second (or not even bothered with).

Newer members are better off joining Social Democrats, Labour or even FG.

Green Party disintegration / split

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