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Nelson's Pillar - 46th anniversary

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Comments

  • #102
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    I heard something about a project involving James Connolly Heron ?

    Seeing as how you mentioned James Connolly Heron - here he is giving a tour of the 1916 sites around the GPO. Interesting about Enda, before he became Taoiseach.





  • #103
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    I’ve absolutely no issues with any nation being proud of its heroes; it’s a perfectly normal sentiment and rational within reasonable boundaries. Where I do have a problem and what I wrote about earlier is the self-congratulatory pride and the type of fervent patriotism that are particularly evident in some sectors of Irish society, (and as you mention in England and the USA). By this I mean the ‘my country right or wrong’ attitude that I regard as downright stupid. A US naval man, Decatur, came out with that bit of jingoism and Nelson shared the stupidity,when he said ‘you must consider every man your enemy who speaks ill of your king and hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil’.
    The Irish may have been ‘a prouder people’ in the 1960’s, but they were a lot simpler, less informed, less questioning and more subservient to both Church and State.
    And who says Conor Cruise O'Brien is dead !!!!
    Personally, I’m glad we have moved on. I never mentioned the mea culpa or perception attitude you describe. I am proud of being Irish, not in your face proud, but quietly, confidently so. I decry those who hold that denying the so-called heroism or their interpretation of some events in our past makes me less Irish. That is not denial, that is maturity. Heroism is in the eye of the beholder, the problem arises when, to ‘establish a narrative that meets our own national needs and gives us our own self respect, the facts are bent to suit a particular need and anyone who does not kow-tow or bend the knee is accused of being unpatriotic and ‘denying our own’ as you state.
    No questioning the ' heroism ' of Nelson and co naturally !!! No, we're all supposed to ignore the crinimal aspect of imperialism and the megalomaniacs who enforced it and anyone who does not kow-tow or bend the knee to such beliefs doesn't have " maturity " of course :D
    I never said that the talk of replacing Nelson was an act of hatred. Re-read my post.
    Let's not get into some pedantic wordplay, quite clearly by the tone of your post that's what you implied.
    Your interpretation of Hyde’s speech is somewhat specious; his discourse was on the influence of imported ideas, dress and literature in particular, rather than de-anglicizing Ireland of its statues. I fully agree with him on several topics and all one has to do is look at the organic fertilizer dross that is shown nightly on RTE to see that some of his views still hold good. However, he was part of the Pegeen Mike bainin & crios syndrome that turned thousands away from the language with Jimin Maire Thadgh and Peig. I can understand why people who have been shot at dislike those who were on the other side of the trigger. That does not make them a ‘bloody fine generation’ ; those I met, a few, not many, were mainly simple men who like many in a time of strife were useful, used and expendable. Most returned to the land, where they were at ease. The lucky ones ended as perennial Captains in the army and were retired early. A few rose to greater things: MJ Costelloe was one, Joe McGrath another, although his tactics on tax avoidance and role of the Sweepstakes are nationalistically questionable and hardly heroic.
    Well since McGrath shared the values of British establishment's ' heros ' i.e. total greed and indifference and believed everyone should be used and expendable, maybe you'd like to have seen a statue raised in his honour also ?
    As citizens we have a duty to know our history. I never said that the awareness leads to malevolence or hatred. What I said was some people need to justify their notion of ‘patriotism’ with fervent hatred of a former ruling power. Use of emotive language, acts of vandalism and concomitant blather are what drive people away from our heritage. Some of the most visited sites in foreign cities are its colonial artefacts. Imagine the tourist draw the Pillar would have in Dublin today. Our past is ourselves, it should be incorporated, whole, entire, good and bad, and accepted for what it is. Cleansing it to suit self-decided patriotic needs is neither helpful nor historical. Doing so with explosives and no political mandate is, as I said earlier, vandalism
    Jayus you'd think we were talking about the Effiel tower or something :rolleyes: I'm sure the tourist numbers dropped by 10,000's after it :rolleyes: They'd be better off bringing the price down on drink in Temple Bar would have more effect on tourist numbers that a monument to a British imperialist.

    And since you mentioned no political mandate, since when did the likes of Nelson and the British establishment ever care about a political mandate ?


  • #104
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    And who says Conor Cruise O'Brien is dead !!!!


    No questioning the ' heroism ' of Nelson and co naturally !!! No, we're all supposed to ignore the crinimal aspect of imperialism and the megalomaniacs who enforced it and anyone who does not kow-tow or bend the knee to such beliefs doesn't have " maturity " of course :D


    Let's not get into some pedantic wordplay, quite clearly by the tone of your post that's what you implied.


    Well since McGrath shared the values of British establishment's ' heros ' i.e. total greed and indifference and believed everyone should be used and expendable, maybe you'd like to have seen a statue raised in his honour also ?

    Jayus you'd think we were talking about the Effiel tower or something :rolleyes: I'm sure the tourist numbers dropped by 10,000's after it :rolleyes: They'd be better off bringing the price down on drink in Temple Bar would have more effect on tourist numbers that a monument to a British imperialist.

    And since you mentioned no political mandate, since when did the likes of Nelson and the British establishment ever care about a political mandate ?

    Not worth a reply. Uninformed, unsupported, politically prejudiced, drivel.


  • #105
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    Not worth a reply. Uninformed, unsupported, politically prejudiced, drivel.
    Ah no, just one of the unsophisticated, uncouth Irish masses - and proud of it.

    pos_624441g2.jpg


  • #106
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Well I know this thread has gone many times in the direction of opinion – and opinion is just that, it will tend to clash without any resolution. So with that in mind I would have a very different opinion and objection to the people of 1966 being described as particularly ‘simple’ as regards politics or economics. I mean in such a way that made them fundamentally or uniquely different from contemporary times. To me the present generation that bought – pun intended - into the Celtic Tiger years , boom without end and the housing bubble, –[especially the ‘Ireland is different’ brigade who failed to understand bubbles have histories too with the same narrative ALWAYS accompanying the ‘faith’ since the Tulip bubble days]. Simple minded faith indeed.

    Then there was the NO vote to Lisbon - until we were all told by higher powers we got it wrong, go back and do it right this time. And then, obediently it seemed, chastised even, many did just as they were told – none of this sounds to me like something that future generations will call enlightened, sophisticated behaviour. I mean IMO it doesn’t sound to me like the type of behaviour that allows us to look back in a superior manner and dismiss previous generations as ‘simple’.


  • #107
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    I was at a talk recently by Ulster Unionist party member Jeffrey Dudgeon and he was asked about 1916 commemorations and he pretty much said he didn't care what form they took. And he was quick to point out countless commemorations take place every week across the six counties, and indeed all of Ireland, for various figures, IRA or otherwise etc etc and the world hasn't ended.

    This "maturity" spiel sickens me. As Irish people we have a right, and dare I say it a duty to honor and remember those who paid the ultimate price for Irish freedom. Other countries have no problems celebrating the actions of their patriots and those self loathing cowards who would have us ashamed of our past, who label the honoring of patriots or celebration of their deeds as something which is "not mature", should, and will be by those who have faith and confidence in themselves, ignored.


  • #108
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »

    This "maturity" spiel sickens me.

    + 1 and 'Amen' to that -


  • #109
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Continuity Wolfe Tone :D

    Just love the user name .


  • #110
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    Jayus you'd think we were talking about the Effiel tower or something :rolleyes: I'm sure the tourist numbers dropped by 10,000's after it :rolleyes: They'd be better off bringing the price down on drink in Temple Bar would have more effect on tourist numbers that a monument to a British imperialist.

    :D This gave me a laugh anyway- never thought of the Pillar competing with Tour Eiffel - Maybe it was the influence of those Huguenots you mentioned on another thread?


  • #111
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    :D This gave me a laugh anyway- never thought of the Pillar competing with Tour Eiffel - Maybe it was the influence of those Huguenots you mentioned on another thread?

    The spire does it for some people.

    There is no accounting for taste.


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  • #112
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    The spire does it for some people.

    There is no accounting for taste.

    But I suppose far less of a tourist attraction it seems - i.e you can't climb up the spire to an overlook like the Pillar and Eiffel...

    Not that I think the Pillar compared to Tour Eiffel ...just to be clear!


  • #113
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    But I suppose far less of a tourist attraction it seems - i.e you can't climb up the spire to an overlook like the Pillar and Eiffel...

    Not that I think the Pillar compared to Tour Eiffel ...just to be clear!

    Well Nelson didn't design Nelson's Pillar and, Eiffel didn't design the Eiffel Tower, it was Morris Koechlin.


  • #114
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    Well Nelson didn't design Nelson's Pillar and, Eiffel didn't design the Eiffel Tower, it was Morris Koechlin.

    Not sure where you're going with this?

    I was referring to their separate roles as tourist attractions ....where Commietommie's comment came in.

    I mean Parnell didn't design his monument either ...or O'Connell his....??


  • #115
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    Last week I was in Dublin with an exchange student and he asked me about some of the statues and the history of O'Connell Street. We decided to walk up it and look at all the statues in turn.

    I told him about the O’Connell Monument and pointed out the bullet hole in the angels breast and the fasces.

    I told him about William Smith O’Brien, how he was sentenced to be hung drawn and quartered and how his statue was erected only 20 odd years after this. I told him about his exile and eventual return.

    Sir John Gray's statue was next, I know little of the man but I told what I knew, a nationalist MP famous for his efforts in securing a water supply.

    The next statue was that of the great James Larkin, one of my personal favorites on the street with the inscriptions of poetry. I told him about the 1913 lockout and the foundation of the Irish Citizens Army. This was a nice introduction to the GPO and it's significance in Irish history.

    Following a tale about great Irish patriots like Pearse my friend was positively brimming with anticipation to find out what the next monument stood for, the one which towered over all others and repeatedly caught his eye as we walked up the street. He enthusiastically asked who it was dedicated to, what this giant monument stood for. I didn't know what to say, it stands for nothing, the only thing it can could possibly commemorate, and unintentionally at that, is the 'electric gate' Celtic Tiger era where people were obsessed with possessions and wanted shiny things merely for the sake of it. It's out of place, it's a meaningless, pointless waste of space. All the other statues have significance, stand for something or someone and have an interesting, positive story. I was ashamed to be honest. All the other statues etc are a reminder of Irelands past struggles, fight against oppression or are in memory of great people who made their mark in other fields. Thats not to say the pillar was better, it wasn't.

    That massive disappointment was followed by Fr Theobald Mathew's statue. A great man he was too, and I told my friend about "the pledge" and how nearly half of Ireland's population has taken it at one point before the famine. He thought this was fascinating especially given the unfortunate Irish stereotype.

    We then proceeded up the street to the Sacred Heart encased in glass, a nice curiosity placed there by Dublins Taxi drivers.

    Finally we reached the Parnell monument and we talked about the man himself and his significance.

    No Man has a right to fix the
    Boundary to the march of a nation
    No man has a right
    To say to his country
    Thus far shat thou
    Go and no further
    We have never
    Attempted to fix
    The ne-plus-ultra
    To the progress of
    Ireland’s nationhood
    And we never shall

    I'd recommend taking a walk down the street and look at all the statues. When you do you will see clearly how out of place the Spire is. Nelsons Pillar was an out of place reminder of British colonialism and I think that the Spire is also an out of place reminder of a (thankfully) bygone era, in it's case the Celtic Tiger era and it's shameful excesses and waste. Tear it down.


  • #116
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Sir John Gray's statue was next, I know little of the man but I told what I knew, a nationalist MP famous for his efforts in securing a water supply.

    He owned and ran the Freeman's Journal newspaper which turned much more nationalist under his ownership and which became the primary newspaper in Ireland that supported Parnell and Home Rule for Ireland.


  • #117
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Not sure where you're going with this?

    I was referring to their separate roles as tourist attractions ....where Commietommie's comment came in.

    Maureen O'Sullivan from Roscommon would have been my compromise choice as you have comprehensively rejected Jayne Mansfield in the past

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdhBRRkNvts


    I mean Parnell didn't design his monument either ...or O'Connell his....??

    But you can't get up on Parnell's or O'Connell's monument's.


  • #118
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    OK- so theres 2 problems:

    1. people dont like the spire.
    2. people didnt like the statue of Nelson.

    Now I think I could bring my training into this and come up with a combination of both. This would involve the re-erection of Nelsons statue with the spire going through his heart. Maybe we could put a few other 'enemies' on the spire (spike) also to give it more historic appeal???

    I think it could work?


  • #119
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    I think this thread is seriously going off the rails....


  • #120
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    I think a statue of Constance Markievicz would have fitted in well and been a deserving memorial to a great Irish woman. Womens role in Irish history is often forgotten.


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  • #121
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    MarchDub wrote: »
    I think this thread is seriously going off the rails....

    Yes- Tangents onto tangents, I am guilty and will go read the charter!!!


  • #122
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    I quoted Connolly to demonstrate that there has always been difficulty in defining what an Irishman is, you can't put an exact definition on it, nor can you precisely define what an American person is, a French, etc etc, so it's not a unique difficulty.

    But in our world the democratic nation state is the structure.
    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    In that case can I ask what your point was in pulling me up on what I said then?

    The opposite from me , I thought you raised a good point well referenced and worthy of discussion.


  • #123
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Worst thing that possibly ever happened on the Island. Brought back the Ulster Volunteers which then lead to Trouble in Ulster and the rest is history. Should never have been allowed. And should have built it back up. I can't believe they allowed for it to be destroyed like that and upset the thousands of Unionists which it did.


  • #124
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Worst thing that possibly ever happened on the Island. Brought back the Ulster Volunteers which then lead to Trouble in Ulster and the rest is history. Should never have been allowed. And should have built it back up. I can't believe they allowed for it to be destroyed like that and upset the thousands of Unionists which it did.

    I have touched on that by the way.

    Here we have Lemass and O'Neill exchanging pleasantaries and cups of tea and this happens. Roger Casement has just been reintered in Glasnevin.Then this happens. It affected the realpolitik.

    It wasn't allowed to be destroyed but a pop mock heroic culture built up around it that changed the dynamic.

    Hardly the most inclusive thing ever.

    Here is a paper on the iconography and public art.

    Symbolising the State— the iconography of O’Connell Street
    and environs after Independence (1922)
    Yvonne Whelan
    Academy for Irish Cultural Heritages,
    University of Ulster, Magee Campus Derry

    http://www.ucd.ie/gsi/pdf/34-2/sack-2.pdf

    WB Yeats said of it
    In the Senate, W.B. Yeats suggested that “if
    another suitable site can be found Nelson’s Pillar should not be broken up. It represents the
    feeling of Protestant Ireland for a man who helped to break the power of Napoleon. The life
    and work of the people who erected it is a part of our tradition. I think we should accept the
    whole past of this nation and not pick and choose. However it is not a beautiful object”
    (quoted in Henchy, 1948: 62).

    A quote from Owen Sheehy-Skeffington
    He touched on a feeling shared by many
    Dubliners in his statement that:
    When in 1966 the pillar was half blown down by a person or persons unknown, I, as
    a Dubliner, felt a sense of loss, not because of Nelson - one could hardly see Nelson
    at the top - but because this pillar symbolised for many Dubliners the centre of the
    city. It had a certain rugged, elegant grace about it… The man who destroyed the
    pillar made Dublin look more like Birmingham and less like an ancient city on the
    River Liffey, because the presence of the pillar gave Dublin an internationally known
    appearance (Seanad Debates, 1969, cols. 915-916).



  • #125
    jonniebgood1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭jonniebgood1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Worst thing that possibly ever happened on the Island.

    Slight hyperbole!!!
    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Brought back the Ulster Volunteers which then lead to Trouble in Ulster and the rest is history. Should never have been allowed. And should have built it back up. I can't believe they allowed for it to be destroyed like that and upset the thousands of Unionists which it did.

    As CDfm has pointed out the link has been made. I think it is a tentative link and the northern troubles were on the way regardless of what happened a statue in Dublin.


  • #126
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    To label the blowing up of Nelson as the cause, indirectly or otherwise, of the troubles is simply fantasy, it has no basis in fact.

    One would question the motivations and agenda of anyone who would make that argument.


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  • #127
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Slight hyperbole!!!



    As CDfm has pointed out the link has been made. I think it is a tentative link and the northern troubles were on the way regardless of what happened a statue in Dublin.

    I think it is a bit more than tentative than that and DeValera & Lemass were able to live with it.

    It was part of Yeats' protestant heritage and he expressed it in the Seanad.

    Other iconic pieces had been taken down or relocated and that was the only one of prominence left.


  • #128
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    To label the blowing up of Nelson as the cause, indirectly or otherwise, of the troubles is simply fantasy, it has no basis in fact.

    One would question the motivations and agenda of anyone who would make that argument.

    If it was a powerful symbol for nationalists to remove then the converse is also true in that it may have been a powerful symbol of identity for protestants or unionists to want to keep.

    I don't have an agenda here.


  • #129
    Jorah
    Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Jorah


    Poor old Nelson :(


  • #130
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    jonniebgood1 wrote: »
    Slight hyperbole!!!



    As CDfm has pointed out the link has been made. I think it is a tentative link and the northern troubles were on the way regardless of what happened a statue in Dublin.
    I am not too sure about that. Sure things have always been hostile in Ulster but the problem was it made things worse and made people even more paranoid of each other.


  • #131
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    I am not too sure about that. Sure things have always been hostile in Ulster but the problem was it made things worse and made people even more paranoid of each other.

    And your source material for this is what?


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  • #132
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MarchDub wrote: »
    And your source material for this is what?
    Paranoia in the Unionist community was rife after it. Which lead to the UVF under Gusty Spence. It had a huge effect on the Unionist community.


  • #133
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Paranoia in the Unionist community was rife after it. Which lead to the UVF under Gusty Spence. It had a huge effect on the Unionist community.

    Well I still am not getting any source material from you ...just comments and opinion. Mind you you're not the only one on here doing that but to answer your unsupported comment-

    There is plenty of evidence that suggests that paranoia in the Unionist community existed well before Nelson's Pillar was blown up. We can take it back hundreds of years or decades but let's just go back a few for the more recent events. For one, Ian Paisley was shouting his guts off since the early 1960s, most especially beginning in 1963 after Terence O'Neill became Prime Minster of Northern Ireland. O'Neill was known as a progressive and his invitation to Lemass in 1965 caused outrage amongst many unionists :-
    Paisley developed a skill for publicity stunts and when Northern Ireland Prime Minster Terence O’Neill invited Irish Taoiseach Sean Lemass to Stormont [in 1965] to discuss topics of mutual interest, he was again to the fore claiming a United Ireland was just around the corner owing to O’Neill’s double dealings...

    Paisley began to target O’Neill and his colleagues in mainstream unionism more frequently accusing them of ‘going soft’. He developed an ‘O’Neill Must Go’ campaign and consistently warned the loyal protestants of Ulster that their birthright was about to be sold out to an Irish Republic run by a mixture of gunmen and priests. To help him in his request to topple O’Neill Paisley formed a couple of support groups in areas that were traditionally known as ‘hardline Protestant’. He set up the Ulster Constitution Defence Committee [UCDC] and the Ulster Protestant Volunteers [UPV]. A number of those involved were also members of Paisley’s church but membership was not restricted to the members of the Free Presbyterian Church.
    Source: Milestones in Murder: Defining Moments in Ulster's Terror War. Hugh Jordan.


  • #134
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Well I still am not getting any source material from you ...just comments and opinion.

    I have come across this before and heard it first from a Northern Irish engineer I sold something to in the mid 90's. He told me about it.

    So it was a contemporaneous event that was very significant.

    Don't forget that at that time Jim Kilfedder , who had Billy Spense as his election agent, lost his Belfast West seat because of alleged Fine Gael links. The exchange between the Spence's and Ian Paisley on the rumours is well documented. Paranoia is a good word to describe it.


  • #135
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    I have come across this before and heard it first from a Northern Irish engineer I sold something to in the mid 90's. He told me about it.

    So it was a contemporaneous event that was very significant.

    Don't forget that at that time Jim Kilfedder , who had Billy Spense as his election agent, lost his Belfast West seat because of alleged Fine Gael links. The exchange between the Spence's and Ian Paisley on the rumours is well documented. Paranoia is a good word to describe it.

    There was enough tension and paranoia in NI prior to 1966 to light a war - and it eventually did. Even going up there as I often did you could taste it in the air. It was a police state. The paranoia was well developed and evident long before 1966. I can remember seeing Orange Marches in the late 1950s being full of vicious hate slogans.

    Choosing to 'blame' the Nelson Pillar bombing on UVF mass murderings, denial of civil rights which included a denial of voting rights, job discrimination, housing discrimination, sounds like just looking around for somewhere to place the blame on anyone but the Unionists.


  • #136
    Continuity Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 47 ✭Continuity Wolfe Tone


    MarchDub wrote: »

    Choosing to 'blame' the Nelson Pillar bombing on UVF mass murderings, denial of civil rights which included a denial of voting rights, job discrimination, housing discrimination, sounds like just looking around for somewhere to place the blame on anyone but the Unionists.

    That was the agenda which I alluded to earlier... It's an obvious one I think, especially from certain posters.


  • #137
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Continuity Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    That was the agenda which I alluded to earlier... It's an obvious one I think, especially from certain posters.

    Agree - the 'he made me do it' defence...yeah, right.


  • #138
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MarchDub wrote: »
    There was enough tension and paranoia in NI prior to 1966 to light a war - and it eventually did. Even going up there as I often did you could taste it in the air. It was a police state. The paranoia was well developed and evident long before 1966. I can remember seeing Orange Marches in the late 1950s being full of vicious hate slogans.

    Choosing to 'blame' the Nelson Pillar bombing on UVF mass murderings, denial of civil rights which included a denial of voting rights, job discrimination, housing discrimination, sounds like just looking around for somewhere to place the blame on anyone but the Unionists.
    Ulster has had war and fighting for centuries. We all know that. The point is the destruction of Nelsons pillar by the Irish Republican Army did NOT help to ease any of the tensions in the province.

    That was basically my main point. It did end up forming the UVF.


  • #139
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Paranoia in the Unionist community was rife after it. Which lead to the UVF under Gusty Spence. It had a huge effect on the Unionist community.

    Paranoia was rife before it also, but less significant because the power structure was not threatened until years later.

    No reason why the Pillar should not have been used to 'prove' a point. Extremists will seize an item and manipulate it to suit their own purposes, a task best achieved when there already is a foundation. Pro-Cromwell pamphleteers did it in the 1640s to discredit the Catholics / Irish. Nobody had much respect for Saddam Hussein, yet Bush & Blair saw a need to manipulate and create the WMD story to denigrate him.

    Use of language at that time also was becoming very important - as a ‘Southerner’ I was fascinated in the early late ‘60’s & early 70’s by UTV describing ‘ a Protestant crowd’ and later in the same broadcast referring to ‘a Catholic mob’. That era was not long after the publication of Vance Packard’s ‘Hidden Persuaders’ and Burntollet happened only a couple of years after McLuhan’s ‘The Medium is the Message’ which were a ‘must read’ for every student back then.


  • #140
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Ulster has had war and fighting for centuries. We all know that. The point is the destruction of Nelsons pillar by the Irish Republican Army did NOT help to ease any of the tensions in the province.

    That was basically my main point. It did end up forming the UVF.

    The UVF had already begun to form prior to the Nelson date - a group of them threw a petrol bomb into Unionist Party Headquarters in Feb 1966 as part of their plan to topple O'Neill. O'Neill was a real target and primary concern for them. It was the fear of what O'Neill might do that was driving much of the action.

    In early May they mistakenly killed an elderly Protestant lady with a petrol bomb intended for a Catholic pub. They did finally 'come out' on 21st May and through newspapers made an official declaration of war on the IRA but they were already on their way by then.


  • #141
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »

    Choosing to 'blame' the Nelson Pillar bombing on UVF mass murderings, denial of civil rights which included a denial of voting rights, job discrimination, housing discrimination, sounds like just looking around for somewhere to place the blame on anyone but the Unionists.

    I don't think anyone is doing that and I am not excusing anybody.

    What people are suggesting is that it was a high profile event that "confirmed" to Northern Protestants that they had no place in the South.

    So this was "evidence".

    The Nelson's Pillar bombing was more than a merry jape.


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  • #142
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is doing that and I am not excusing anybody.

    What people are suggesting is that it was a high profile event that "confirmed" to Northern Protestants that they had no place in the South.

    So this was "evidence".

    The Nelson's Pillar bombing was more than a merry jape.

    No, what was being suggested, and what I specifically answered, is that it directly resulted in the formation and murderings by the UVF - it did not. That was the 'evidence' I was asking for.


  • #143
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    The hysterics in some quarters in NI over the Lemass visit - and Paisley's well voiced opposition to any connection with the Dublin Government - were well expressed afterwards by T. K. Whitaker, who accompanied Lemass. But the meeting itself went well. Whitaker described it as:
    Our hosts thought the occasion worthy of Champagne. The atmosphere was most friendly. I imagine Dr Paisley's worse fears would be confirmed if I were to say that the red wine we drank was Chateauneuf-du-Pape!


  • #144
    thecommietommy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Worst thing that possibly ever happened on the Island. Brought back the Ulster Volunteers which then lead to Trouble in Ulster and the rest is history. Should never have been allowed. And should have built it back up. I can't believe they allowed for it to be destroyed like that and upset the thousands of Unionists which it did.
    There had been the most serious riots in Belfast since the 30's as far back as 1964 when the RUC to satisfy the demands of Paisely and co. removed a tri colour from the Sinn Fein office on Divis St. 1964: THE TRICOLOUR RIOTS - http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/docs/boyd69.htm

    According to the excellent Paisley From Demagogue to Democrat? by Ed Moloney, ex British soldier and loyalist leader Gusty Spence confirmed he was sworn into the UVF near Pomeroy Co Tyrone in 1965.

    On 7 May 1966, a group of UVF men led by a drunken* Spence petrol bombed a Catholic-owned pub on Shankill Road which also engulfed the house next door, killing the elderly Protestant widow. On 27 May, Spence ordered other UVF drunks to kill an IRA man, Leo Martin, who lived on Falls Road. Unable to find their target, the men drove around in search of any Catholic and shot dead a Catholic John Scullion as he walked home. On 26 June 1966, again a drunken Spence and an ex Paratropper from Larne shot dead Catholic civilian Peter Ward (18) and wounded two others as they left a pub on Malvern Street, Belfast. Spence later wrote "At the time, the attitude was that if you couldn't get an IRA man you should shoot a Taig, he's your last resort". The ex Para called McClean who had also been invovled in attacks on homes of Catholics in Larne earlier in the year said when sobered up upon his arrest "I'm terribly sorry I ever heard of that man Paisley or decided to follow him".

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paisley-Dema.../dp/1842233246

    * Drunkeness was the general state of preparedness for most of the attacks on Catholics by the loyalists during the entire troubles


  • #145
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MarchDub wrote: »
    The UVF had already begun to form prior to the Nelson date - a group of them threw a petrol bomb into Unionist Party Headquarters in Feb 1966 as part of their plan to topple O'Neill. O'Neill was a real target and primary concern for them. It was the fear of what O'Neill might do that was driving much of the action.

    In early May they mistakenly killed an elderly Protestant lady with a petrol bomb intended for a Catholic pub. They did finally 'come out' on 21st May and through newspapers made an official declaration of war on the IRA but they were already on their way by then.
    All I am saying is what Gusty Spence said. The coming out and declaring war on the IRA pretty much confirms that.


  • #146
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    All I am saying is what Gusty Spence said. The coming out and declaring war on the IRA pretty much confirms that.

    You are stretching things and modifying your position just to win a point. The UVF had already been established by the time you claimed. . Their point about the IRA confirms nothing more than they wanted to publicise their intentions - in case the previous atrocities didn't.


  • #147
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    MarchDub wrote: »
    You are stretching things and modifying your position just to win a point. The UVF had already been established by the time you claimed. . Their point about the IRA confirms nothing more than they wanted to publicise their intentions - in case the previous atrocities didn't.
    But like I said, you have always had violence to some degree with groups. The UVF was small at the start and then over the next 5-10 years got huge numbers for a paramilitary outfit. Like the PIRA. Incidents like this didn't stop those numbers rising.


  • #148
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    But like I said, you have always had violence to some degree with groups. The UVF was small at the start and then over the next 5-10 years got huge numbers for a paramilitary outfit. Like the PIRA. Incidents like this didn't stop those numbers rising.


    I am certainly not saying that incident or anything similar stops numbers rising [!] - but it is a huge stretch and I have previoulsy made my point, that to claim that it was the sole and monumental event that formed the UVF, as you have claimed - is simply not the record, and that charge frankly, is a cop out. The UVF was on its way - and Pillar or no, they were not going to be anything but the murdering thugs they were.


  • #149
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    thecommietommy wrote: »
    There had been the most serious riots in Belfast since the 30's as far back as 1964 when the RUC to satisfy the demands of Paisely and co. removed a tri colour from the Sinn Fein office on Divis St. 1964: THE TRICOLOUR RIOTS - http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/docs/boyd69.htm

    A

    Good link - I like Andrew Boyd's work. One of the brave historians...


  • #150
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I get what people are saying but look at how it was portrayed in an Poblacht in 2005.
    Fifth Column

    Nelson%27s-Pillar-no-more.jpg Photo: Nelson toppled off his pillar after explosion in 1966
    Nelson head rest

    THE HEAD of Nelson's Pillar, blown up by republicans in 1966 to make the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising go with a real bang, has been found a final resting place in the Dublin City Archive.
    The granite sculpture of the English imperialist sea lord is being put on display ahead of next year's 40th anniversary of him being brought down to earth.
    It will be on display in the Reading Room of the Dublin City Archive at 138 Pearse Street, Dublin 2, if you want to go along and enjoy the fallen hero.



    http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/11216


    As I see it is that Nelson was a figure who had nothing to do with Ireland or its occupation. The proximity to the GPO may have upset some.

    Blowing up the monument was like trying to airbrush away Protestant Heritage in Ireland. It was like saying there is no room for it.

    I wasn't brought up to believe that but that we needed to be tolerant of the other traditions we shared the island with as well as proud of our own.


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  • #151
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    CDfm wrote: »
    I get what people are saying but look at how it was portrayed in an Poblacht in 2005.



    As I see it is that Nelson was a figure who had nothing to do with Ireland or its occupation. The proximity to the GPO may have upset some.

    Blowing up the monument was like trying to airbrush away Protestant Heritage in Ireland. It was like saying there is no room for it.

    I wasn't brought up to believe that but that we needed to be tolerant of the other traditions we shared the island with as well as proud of our own.
    Yes. That is basically my point. It was a big moment which lead to the war.


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