Nelson's Pillar - 46th anniversary

MarchDub

KeithAFC wrote: »

Yes. That is basically my point. It was a big moment which lead to the war.

It's your point now that your other point - the actual formation of the UVF - has been invalidated. But it's still not a valid reading of the history of NI.

I suggest you read up on the whole development of events in NI - including how the statlet was run by the Unionists and how any attempt at Catholic rights was met with violent resistance. Trying to pass the blame onto a bloodless moment in O'Connell St is simply just that - passing the buck. And laughable.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

It's your point now that your other point - the actual formation of the UVF - has been invalidated. But it's still not a valid reading of the history of NI.

I suggest you read up on the whole development of events in NI - including how the statlet was run by the Unionists and how any attempt at Catholic rights was met with violent resistance.

OK, you did have civil right violations etc.

You also had the leaders of both states trying to build relationships and change.

How did the Southern Protestants feel is something I am interested in .

Trying to pass the blame onto a bloodless moment in O'Connell St is simply just that - passing the buck. And laughable.

People take offense about lots of things.

As the an Poblacht article said it got 1966 off with a bang. Add a bit of spin to it and this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3v0eKHB_s

Did it make the Northern Ireland charts ?

This was a happening .

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

OK, you did have civil right violations etc.

You also had the leaders of both states trying to build relationships and change.

How did the Southern Protestants feel is something I am interested in .

I don't think you can clump 'Southern Protestants' into one group or one mind set. We had a tradition of Protestant patriots too - we could have put Parnell, Grattan or Wolfe Tone or many other Protestants up there in place of Nelson which would have been more fitting IMO. My C of I Gran didn't give a damn about Nelson and just wanted the pillar left and maybe an Irish patriot put up instead.

CDfm wrote: »

People take offense about lots of things.

As the an Poblacht article said it got 1966 off with a bang. Add a bit of spin to it and this

[

Taking offence is one thing - but taking the liberty of blaming something like that on an entire war is something else entirely - and just a cop out. The NI state - and its blatant and violent discrimination - was a disaster that was going to blow up in everyone's face sooner or later.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

My C of I Gran didn't give a damn about Nelson and just wanted the pillar left and maybe an Irish patriot put up instead.

That wasn't to be.

Patrick Bronte would even have been a controversial choice.

Taking offence is one thing - but taking the liberty of blaming something like that on an entire war is something else entirely - and just a cop out. The NI state - and its blatant and violent discrimination - was a disaster that was going to blow up in everyone's face sooner or later.

Those four Belfast teachers had a mega hit on their hands, Gerry Fitt wins Belfast West. These things were catalysts.

I am not saying they were right but can understand the media effect .

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Those four Belfast teachers had a mega hit on their hands, Gerry Fitt wins Belfast West. These things were catalysts.

.

Gerry Fitt won his first seat in 1962 - so he was on his way already and was a known figure. Events were moving, it seemed, in favour of Catholic rights - this was a jolt to many hardline Unionists. Jonathan Bardon describes the 1962 election as "the opening salvo of the [NI] civil rights movement".

KeithAFC

MarchDub wrote: »

It's your point now that your other point - the actual formation of the UVF - has been invalidated. But it's still not a valid reading of the history of NI.

I suggest you read up on the whole development of events in NI - including how the statlet was run by the Unionists and how any attempt at Catholic rights was met with violent resistance. Trying to pass the blame onto a bloodless moment in O'Connell St is simply just that - passing the buck. And laughable.

No it hasn't. You have given no evidence. I have given you evidence from the man himself. It was Gusty Spence who mentions the destruction of Nelsons Pillar and the rise of the UVF after that.

There has always been small elements of Loyalists in Ulster which you would construed as the UVF.

The bit in bold could be easily explained from the view point of that time. As this is the history section on the forum, you would perhaps be interested in looking into that more. It wasn't so much about Catholics but keeping the status quo Unionist. Call it gerrymandering but from that point of view at the time within elite Unionism, you could understand from a tactical political view point why they did that.

I hope you don't think I am giving my opinion on this Pillar incident. I am giving the view of the man who brought back the UVF at that time.

golfwallah

I can see that people have strong views about this issue. Opinions and perspectives on the same events differ, depending on where you are coming from – and maybe that’s a good thing, as long as it isn’t taken too far.

We Irish seem to have a great penchant for splitting hairs and blaming one side or another about past events. You only have to listen to arguments about the current economic crisis to realise that.

But time moves on, and it’s now time to rise above these differences and move things forward – and live with differences (it’s called tolerance).

We need to put all the historic baggage behind us and concentrate on thing we can do something about - the here & now and the future.

For example, how do people feel about John Bruton’s recent comments that “All commemorations serve an educational purpose for the future. It is important that such sentiments as these not be glorified in 2016, and that their consequences be fairly assessed”.

These observations make sense to me.

So let’s please have ideas on how to commemorate the centenary of 1916 in a positive light that will be of lasting benefit to all on this island North and South plus the UK.

Or is that too much to expect 100 years after 1916 and 50 years after the disappearance of “The Pillar”?

Wild Bill

Though I was only 10 when the pillar was removed I remember the events clearly - even went into town to collect a bit as a souvenir.

The previous year I'd climbed the spiral steps to the caged viewing point at the top - admission 3d for adults if I recall correctly.

To be honest it was an incongruous pug-ugly structure and very few regretted it's removal. The much derided spire is vastly superior aesthetically.

If folk had wanted it preserved they should have removed Nelson; erected a statue to Pearse/1916 and renamed it. :cool:

Wild Bill

golfwallah wrote: »

For example, how do people feel about John Bruton’s recent comments that “All commemorations serve an educational purpose for the future. It is important that such sentiments as these not be glorified in 2016, and that their consequences be fairly assessed”.

Nothing Brutal "the visit of prince Charles was the greatest day of my life" Bruton ever said appealed to me.

So let’s please have ideas on how to commemorate the centenary of 1916 in a positive light that will be of lasting benefit to all on this island North and South plus the UK.

Why the f*** should commemoration of 1916 be "of benefit to the UK" :pac:

Have they removed the countless Imperial War Memorials that deface their country in order make us happy?

ffs :mad:

Wild Bill

LordSutch wrote: »

The 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising will be fervently welcomed by Irish Republicans, embraced by Nationalist patriots, tolerated by others, avoided by many others, and blanked out by Unionists. I will make sure that myself and the family are abroad that week.

Why stay away for just a week?

golfwallah

Wild Bill wrote: »

Nothing Brutal "the visit of prince Charles was the greatest day of my life" Bruton ever said appealed to me.

John Bruton is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone else. It's called tolerance.

Wild Bill wrote: »

Why the f*** should commemoration of 1916 be "of benefit to the UK" :pac:

Didn't say that! Was referring to people not the state. And 1916 can provide cultural events and business opportunities for those that are prepared to look forward rather than backwards.

Wild Bill wrote: »

Have they removed the countless Imperial War Memorials that deface their country in order make us happy?

ffs :mad:

Your opinion - not fact. Doubt if very many share that opinion with you, no matter how strongly you feel about it. Time to move on - this is the 21st century not the 18th, 19th or even 20th.

MarchDub

golfwallah wrote: »

But time moves on, and it’s now time to rise above these differences and move things forward – and live with differences (it’s called tolerance).

We need to put all the historic baggage behind us and concentrate on thing we can do something about - the here & now and the future.

Well with all due respect maybe you ought not to have run this thread on the History forum - history is all about looking back and reporting on, understanding and explaining the past.

MarchDub

KeithAFC wrote: »

The bit in bold could be easily explained from the view point of that time. As this is the history section on the forum, you would perhaps be interested in looking into that more. It wasn't so much about Catholics but keeping the status quo Unionist. Call it gerrymandering but from that point of view at the time within elite Unionism, you could understand from a tactical political view point why they did that.

I hope you don't think I am giving my opinion on this Pillar incident. I am giving the view of the man who brought back the UVF at that time.

Where is your source for that? I am serious, not trying to get at you. I have a number of sources that contradict what you are saying - one, Thomas Hennessy, Northern Ireland the Origin of the Troubles quotes Spence as saying that he was approached in 1965 by a Unionist MP who told him that the UVF was being re-established and he was sworn in shorty afterwards in a secret ceremony. He soon became a leading figure in the UVF. Andrew Boyd says similar. And another poster - I think Commietommie - has already referenced this fact on the thread.

Of course we should also acknowledge that Spence years later regretted his own bigotry - his words - and his part in many of the killings.

Richard

There's this great RTE One ident which shows Nelson's pillar morphing into the spire.

http://www.tv-ark.org.uk/mivana/mediaplayer.php?id=e9eccaa5053d409f35671f990d29ff73&media=rteone_ident_2005_t1135&type=mp4

CDfm

KeithAFC wrote: »

It was Gusty Spence who mentions the destruction of Nelsons Pillar and the rise of the UVF after that....There has always been small elements of Loyalists in Ulster which you would construed as the UVF........... Call it gerrymandering but from that point of view at the time within elite Unionism, you could understand from a tactical political view point why they did that.

A very interesting perspective and Spence was very influential and was mentor to the late David Ervine but they weren't static or resistant to change.

Believing that conservative unionists had exploited loyalist activities he encouraged several UVF prisoners, including the late David Ervine, to develop a political wing for the UVF.With its roots in deprived communities that were often convulsed by paramilitary feuds, the Progressive Unionist Party failed to break out. The chief political contribution made by Gusty Spence was his success in convincing the leadership of the UVF and the UDA to declare a ceasefire. In May 2007, he announced that the UVF was putting its weapons beyond use and offered “abject and due remorse” to the loved ones of innocent victims.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0927/1224304800014.html

It does show how their perceptions changed from 1966 and there was a political backdrop to all this.

MarchDub

Richard wrote: »

There's this great RTE One ident which shows Nelson's pillar morphing into the spire.

http://www.tv-ark.org.uk/mivana/mediaplayer.php?id=e9eccaa5053d409f35671f990d29ff73&media=rteone_ident_2005_t1135&type=mp4

Would like to see this but link didn't work for me. Says it has expired....like Nelson I suppose!

Wild Bill

golfwallah wrote: »

John Bruton is entitled to his opinion as much as anyone else. It's called tolerance.

I guess Holocaust-deniers are too?

While I'd call that tolerance some countries ('advanced' Western European EU 'democracies') actually make it a crime :eek:

Wild Bill

golfwallah wrote: »

Your opinion - not fact. Doubt if very many share that opinion with you, no matter how strongly you feel about it. Time to move on - this is the 21st century not the 18th, 19th or even 20th.

No more than your opinions are "fact"

So..... you are saying that they have removed Imperial War Memorials in order to cease offending their victims?

Or what? :cool:

Wild Bill

golfwallah wrote: »

And 1916 can provide cultural events and business opportunities for those that are prepared to look forward rather than backwards.

Time to move on - this is the 21st century not the 18th, 19th or even 20th.

So - you reckon that we should tailor our view of the past to maximize British investment?

I'd prefer to lick up to the Chinese - they hate the British (for very good reason) - and they are the future

If we want to be cynical and amoral (as you suggest) let's maximize our economic advantage based on a shared colonial past. :cool:

Richard

MarchDub wrote: »

Would like to see this but link didn't work for me. Says it has expired....like Nelson I suppose!

Try this - http://www2.tv-ark.org.uk/International/ireland/rte1.html its in the right column above "midweek movie ident"

CDfm

There had been another attack in 1965 which this article from History Ireland recounts.

One summer’s day in 1965 a group of ‘young men’ took over the Pillar and locked out the public. They were said to be a splinter group of the IRA; they attempted to split or damage the Nelson statue by prolonged application of what were known as ‘heat throwers’ or ‘flame guns’ but Thomas Kirk’s thirteen foot high statute in Portland stone of Nelson leaning on a capstan, was too much for such trifling gadgetry.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume6/issue4/features/?id=190

and

‘Up the Pillar’, about Nelson’s Pillar and actor John Molloy, by his daughter, Honor Molloy

15/02/2011
By VULGO MAGAZINE
When I meet Irish people of a certain age—fifty years and older—I often ask, Did you ever go up Nelson’s Pillar? Then I sit back and wait for a fascinating story.
Stale air, one says. I remember. Inside was dark. Smelled like a bagpipe.
There was a string of bulbs twisting up the black spiral stairs that climbed the length of the column.
I went like a rabbit up them steps, says a third. Stood at the railings. Don’t go near the railing, Mammy said, cause they hadn’t yet built the fence.
I came up to a cage in the sky, another finishes. Couldn’t see Nelson up above but put your eyes to the fence you could see to the sea and the wide world beyond.
Nelson’s Pillar, a famous Dublin landmark and a tribute to the eponymous British naval hero, towered over O’Connell Street for 156 years. March 8th, 2011 marks the 45th anniversary of its destruction.
Early one Tuesday morning in 1966, the IRA—it is believed—laced the Pillar with dynamite and blew it up. Clery’s clock stopped at 1:31 a.m. Portland stone, granite, and bomb mist filled the streets.
It seems that a gang of actors and musicians were hanging out in Groome’s Hotel across the road from the Pillar. My father—John Molloy, a well-known comedian of the era—just happened to be among those leaning on the bar rail that night. I’ve since heard that everyone was waiting for the explosion. They all knew it was going to happen. One young boy was shaken awake by his father who stood him at the bedroom window so he could watch Lord Nelson fall. At 1:31 a.m., Nelson did.

My father dug Nelson’s sword out of the rubble and brought it home. He’d been a Royal Navy man in the Second World War, and felt justified in taking it as a souvenir. He was photographed with it—good publicity for his show at the Gate—and it lived on our fireplace mantle for years. He also claimed that he’d packed Nelson’s head in the boot of a taxi, but that the Corporation wanted the head and took it away from him.
My father was a fabulist, which is a nice way of saying that the truth never stopped him from telling a good story. Nowadays I’m suspicious about his version of that night, or at least about certain parts of it. Nelson’s head, for instance. The Dublin City Library and Archive had to reinforce the floor to accommodate the weight of Nelson’s pate. How could one lethally skinny actor load the back of a cab with a ton-and-a-half of Portland stone?
The Pillar’s been gone for ages now. The Dublin of which the Pillar was such a part is gone, too. Only stories and memories remain. I’ve got my own version of that night, which I’ll be reading at the Dublin City Library and Archive on Monday, March 7th. You’re welcome to attend.
And if you’ve been up the Pillar, I’d like to hear about it. I do love a good story. A good story, as any Dubliner knows, is worth its weight in Portland Stone.


http://vulgo.ie/voices/up-the-pillar-about-nelsons-pillar-and-actor-john-molloy-by-his-daughter-honor-molloy/

MarchDub

Richard wrote: »

Try this - http://www2.tv-ark.org.uk/International/ireland/rte1.html its in the right column above "midweek movie ident"

Yes, see it now -

golfwallah

MarchDub wrote: »

Well with all due respect maybe you ought not to have run this thread on the History forum - history is all about looking back and reporting on, understanding and explaining the past.

With all due respect, you’re entitled to your preferences and opinions. But the right to opinions does not mean everyone agrees with them. I prefer to look at the past and learn from it in the context of what we can do to make a better world today and tomorrow.

This is a difference in perspective to that held by some who, perhaps, dwell a tad too much on past events and forget that we need to move forward.

That’s why this thread was initially focussed on celebration, in an inclusive way, and moving forward from historic events.

Life be very boring, indeedm if everyone had the same opinion – on any subject, including history.

golfwallah

Wild Bill wrote: »

So - you reckon that we should tailor our view of the past to maximize British investment?

I'm not asking you or anyone else to tailor their views. But I am interested in tolerance of differences in opinion and in seeing Ireland working its way out of our current economic woes.

You can't really be serious about investment in Irish related ventures, when we so heavily depend on inward foreign investment, now and for the foreseeable future. And for your information, "1916 The Musical" is not a British Investment - it's open to investment by anyone, who is willing to put their money on the line.

Wild Bill wrote: »

I'd prefer to lick up to the Chinese - they hate the British (for very good reason) - and they are the future

I've nothing against any other country, regardless of whom you'd prefer to lick up to.

Wild Bill wrote: »

If we want to be cynical and amoral (as you suggest) let's maximize our economic advantage based on a shared colonial past. :cool:

I'm not suggesting cynicism and amorality - they are your words, not mine.
My view is that we need to maximise our country's economy in every legitimate way possible and promote tolerance. That's my understanding of what the peace Process is all about.

golfwallah

Wild Bill wrote: »

I guess Holocaust-deniers are too?

While I'd call that tolerance some countries ('advanced' Western European EU 'democracies') actually make it a crime :eek:

At least John Bruton went to the trouble of putting himself forward for election, getting elected to the Dail and then as Taoiseach.

Maybe you should go forward with your views and see how far you would get with the electorate?

golfwallah

Wild Bill wrote: »

No more than your opinions are "fact"

So..... you are saying that they have removed Imperial War Memorials in order to cease offending their victims?

Or what? :cool:

This is pure rubbish and not worthy of comment.

CDfm

Isn't it telling that John Malloy, the actor, served in the British Navy during World War II and had no real problem in reconciling Nelson's Pillar and being Irish. He had trained in Paris under Marcel Marceau the most famous mime artist ever.

We were in a trade organisation with Britain having been blackballed by the EU .

DeV saw no inconsistancy between independence and Commonwealth Membership and friendly neutrality.

Behan, Yeats and Joyce saw it as being part of Dublin fabric.

Then I grew up in Cork and am not from Dublin and the strenght of opinion here amazes me.

pedroeibar1

CDfm wrote: »

Isn't it telling that John Malloy, the actor, served in the British Navy during World War II and had no real problem in reconciling Nelson's Pillar and being Irish. He had trained in Paris under Marcel Marceau the most famous mime artist ever.

We were in a trade organisation with Britain having been blackballed by the EU .

DeV saw no inconsistancy between independence and Commonwealth Membership and friendly neutrality.

Behan, Yeats and Joyce saw it as being part of Dublin fabric.

Then I grew up in Cork and am not from Dublin and the strenght of opinion here amazes me.

I agree. I’ve mostly stayed away from this thread and the one on the ‘Irishman definition’ because there is enough going on in this country to depress one without reading the bigotry vented by some.
I do not regard many of those who ‘died for Ireland’ with the same fervour as some posting here. Their deaths were an occupational hazard, they did not want to die, they did not think they would – even in 1916 "The basic idea was to seize Dublin by a swift surprise attack and immobilise the British forces ............ This, it was confidently expected, would gain the necessary margin of time not only to land the arms and distribute them but also to get the provincial brigades properly in motion" Dublin burning; The Easter rising from Behind the Barricades, W.J. Brennan-Whitmore, Gill & Macmillan, 1996, p16.)
On that basis 1916 was a signal failure, and it was only after the macabre executions of the leaders that public support grew. Further British mismanagement including use of the Tans led to independence.

CDfm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

On that basis 1916 was a signal failure, and it was only after the macabre executions of the leaders that public support grew. Further British mismanagement including use of the Tans led to independence.

And, the numbers of civilians killed exceeded the army and rebel dead and arguably the summary executions/murders of the pacifist and suffrage campaigner Francis Sheehy-Skeffington , a few journalists and children and the accompanying enquiry and courts martial had a greater affect on public opinion than the rising itself.

It isn't mono-dimensional.

Wild Bill

golfwallah wrote: »

At least John Bruton went to the trouble of putting himself forward for election, getting elected to the Dail and then as Taoiseach.

Maybe you should go forward with your views and see how far you would get with the electorate?

There are many people in the Dail with my views (not enough, of course)!

Not that many there with Bruton's infatuation with Jug-ears I'd wager :rolleyes: