Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Blondini · 27-11-2020 5:39pm

Definitely a higher prevalence of schools with multiple cases coming to light in the last 48 hours or so..

wirelessdude01 · 27-11-2020 6:07pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Confirmed case in my kids class. According to the email from the school all students from the class are deemed close contacts but we've been told unless we get a call from HSE the kids can go to school on Monday.

Well if they are all close contacts then no one should be going to school as they'll all be getting two tests.

Boggles · 27-11-2020 6:22pm

meeeeh wrote: »

And that's my original post to which you replied:

The two adult cases I know - one was picked up at a party and the other one was picked visiting someone who was waiting for a test. Both during level 5. Another one I know of was at GAA training.

I said that transmission among people I actually know were socialising and something to do with GAA

You either actually know them or you don't.

You don't know the third person who picked it up as you have since clarified and you certainly don't know how or where they picked it up as you all ready stated it wasn't at training but you seem to be suggesting now it was at training.

Like I said, we will leave there, the tale has evolved so much so quickly the interest has waned and it's just a ball of confusion now.

Boggles · 27-11-2020 7:30pm

MM praising the kids for their bravery.

Too right.

27-11-2020 10:57pm

Blondini wrote: »

Definitely a higher prevalence of schools with multiple cases coming to light in the last 48 hours or so..

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-1914-dayepidemiologyreports/COVID-19_14_day_epidemiology_report_20201126%20-%20website.pdf

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-1914-dayepidemiologyreports/COVID-19%2014%20day%20epidemiology%20report_20201119_website.pdf

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-1914-dayepidemiologyreports/COVID-19%2014%20day%20epidemiology%20report_12112020%20-%20website.pdf

Falling slowly in 5 to 18 year olds.

Boggles · 28-11-2020 11:26am

Covid-19: Expert calls for 'honesty' about decision to keep schools open

The report notes the reproductive, or R number, in 131 countries had been found to have reduced “significantly within a shorter timeframe” when schools closed, according to a study published in renowned independent science journal The Lancet.

It also notes the assertion of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) that the use of masks is not a sufficient requirement for not considering students or teachers in schools as being close contacts of a confirmed case.

I have no idea how much of an expert she is, but she does raise some valid points.

I read the 30+ page report NPHET sent to the government yesterday, schools were mentioned the grand total of zero.

If Carslberg did air brushing.

Stateofyou · 28-11-2020 11:26am

meeeh, you should know better than to tell a personal story here...

Thats me · 28-11-2020 1:13pm

Boggles wrote: »

I read the 30+ page report NPHET sent to the government yesterday, schools were mentioned the grand total of zero.

It was said in very beginning that one of goals of lockdown was to allow child services to operate...

Boggles · 28-11-2020 2:18pm

Thats me wrote: »

It was said in very beginning that one of goals of lockdown was to allow child services to operate...

The 2 main goals is to keep schools open and non Covid health care functioning.

But that is beside my point.

A compressive document on recommendations and predictions from public health to governance does not mention schools once. A place where a million humans congregate indoors.

That is by every single measurement bizarre in the extreme.

frank8211 · 28-11-2020 2:20pm

Thats me wrote: »

It was said in very beginning that one of goals of lockdown was to allow child services to operate...

Covid-19: Expert calls for 'honesty' about decision to keep schools open
The author of a new report regarding the rates of transmission of Covid-19 among schoolchildren has called for “transparency of all data” from the health authorities with regard to the prevalence of the coronavirus in Irish schools.
The report, which has been seen by the Irish Examiner, was delivered to Chief Medical Officer Dr Tony Holohan earlier this week with a request that he bring it to the attention of the public health authorities.
It notes that 86% of cases, according to official statistics, among 5-14-year-olds have occurred since the beginning of September, when schools reopened for the first time since the onset of the pandemic.

Thats me · 28-11-2020 3:31pm

Boggles wrote: »

The 2 main goals is to keep schools open and non Covid health care functioning.

But that is beside my point.

A compressive document on recommendations and predictions from public health to governance does not mention schools once. A place where a million humans congregate indoors.

That is by every single measurement bizarre in the extreme.

Sorry, do you mean this document? Schools are mentioned there. Look at pages 1 or 7 for example.

Thats me · 28-11-2020 3:37pm

frank8211 wrote: »

Covid-19: Expert calls for 'honesty' about decision to keep schools open

I've read this. Completely agree except in my opinion on L5 schools should be closed unconditionally.

But from the document from dept of health it seem closure of schools was not considered since this was initial requirement to take measures to let us to leave schools open. I may be wrong, but this is how i understood it. From this understanding i getting conclusion it is the only government responsible for not closing schools because they tasked HS to provide this.

Boggles · 28-11-2020 3:38pm

Thats me wrote: »

Sorry, do you mean this document? Schools are mentioned there. Look at pages 1 or 7 for example.

Reiterates core principles, that's it.

Thats me · 28-11-2020 3:40pm

Boggles wrote: »

Reiterates core principles, that's it.

What else you would expect?

Boggles · 28-11-2020 3:44pm

Thats me wrote: »

What else you would expect?

What the lady is calling for in the link I posted.

Honesty and Transparency.

Thats me · 28-11-2020 3:52pm

Boggles wrote: »

What the lady is calling for in the link I posted.

Honesty and Transparency.

Government comes to Health authorities asking for what should we do in current situation to enable provision of child care and to ensure schools could remain open. They providing their recommendation on how to maintain schools open. If they would be tasked to investigate impact from the schools - i believe they would be able to provide information you are looking for

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 28-11-2020 3:55pm

Does the masks outdoors recommendation extend to school yards now does anyone know?

Boggles · 28-11-2020 4:01pm

Thats me wrote: »

Government comes to Health authorities asking for what should we do in current situation to enable provision of child care and to ensure schools could remain open. They providing their recommendation on how to maintain schools open. If they would be tasked to investigate impact from the schools - i believe they would be able to provide information you are looking for

Public Health information is not just for governance, there is a clue in the name. it should be unbiased, transparent and honest.

So far it hasn't been.

We are either all in this together or we aren't.

wadacrack · 28-11-2020 4:34pm

Evidence mounting that Schools are not safe atm.

https://www.independentsage.org/an-urgent-plan-for-safer-schools/

wirelessdude01 · 28-11-2020 4:48pm

wadacrack wrote: »

Evidence mounting that Schools are not safe atm.

https://www.independentsage.org/an-urgent-plan-for-safer-schools/

Just remember we have the intelligent Covid on this side of the water. Knows to stop at the school door.

Thats me · 28-11-2020 7:32pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

1/10 for originality. Must try harder.

No, i remember it was already said before... But nobody before was registering on the forum just to say that

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 28-11-2020 8:05pm

Surf Dude wrote: »

You misunderstood me. Certainly don’t think you are my betters. Seems to me that teachers on here are a bunch of moaners.

It's like a conveyor belt in here

niamh247 · 29-11-2020 8:06pm

wadacrack wrote: »

Evidence mounting that Schools are not safe atm.

https://www.independentsage.org/an-urgent-plan-for-safer-schools/

That's not evidence. Just a belief tailored to the needs of the government. Common sense tells that schools do not have any special magic bubble around them to prevent the virus.

niamh247 · 29-11-2020 8:55pm

JDD wrote: »

Don't forget, a third of the workforce are still working as normal - i.e. not furloughed and not working from home. So a huge chunk of parents are still working in factories, distribution centres, supermarkets, health care workers, teachers, call centre and bank branch workers etc etc,

I'm not saying that the majority of kids who test positive are catching it from their parents, but that has to count as a proportion of the infections.

Having said that, I absolutely agree that schools are not magical places where covid does not occur. I think if the HSE changed their policy to carry out these three steps:
- Test the entire class when a positive case is identified;
- Ensure that siblings are kept home the minute their brother and sister shows symptoms and/or their brother or sister is identified as a close contact, rather than waiting for the brother or sisters positive result; and
- speeding up the time between a positive test and identifying close contacts;

Then I think we would have much less infections at the moment, and shops and restaurants and pubs would be able to open fully on the run up to Christmas.

I know that's lots of disruption for a school. You could have one positive case in 1st class, and all of a sudden 25 children from that class are sent home, along with every sibling of each of those 25 students. So you could have 50 children sent home for two days because of one positive test. If you have three positive cases in the school that have come in in different classes, well that would shut down most small schools entirely. I think this is why the HSE have been quite restrictive in how they have defined close contacts within schools.

On balance though, it seems like a better idea to widen the close contract criteria if we want to keep infections in the community to a minimum, and open the rest of the economy as much as possible.

I am the first to say that a child's education is hugely important, and more important than opening restaurants and pubs, even considering the damage to the economy and to people's livelihoods. But I think some school disruption is worth it if it makes a significant difference in stopping community spread. There is a balance to be struck here, and I think we have tilted a little too far in the direction of protecting education, to the detriment of every other part of our economy.

Why so much struggle and why being so much tense? Why can't teaching be done online??? I don't believe kids are learning any better in schools with all the masks and tension themselves. Why can't Ireland come off from it's archaic thinking and sticking to blind beliefs about schooling?

Many countries avoided this mess and tension by declaring schools to be onlie for the full academic year, even though their infection rates are lower than Ireland.

This clearly shows that learning is not the concern that is driving the schools to be open. It is about keeping the children away from home so that parents can work. Very contrived goals for a country which is considered somewhat developed.

Such weird goal is being pursued at the cost of forcing kids from hundreds of different households to sit in closed rooms for prolonged time - as if under an experiment. This beats all logic and common sense. Just as the reason they give - oh, data shows schools are not spreading. Data need not force you to lose all common sense.

29-11-2020 9:58pm

niamh247 wrote: »

Why so much struggle and why being so much tense? Why can't teaching be done online??? I don't believe kids are learning any better in schools with all the masks and tension themselves. Why can't Ireland come off from it's archaic thinking and sticking to blind beliefs about schooling?

Many countries avoided this mess and tension by declaring schools to be onlie for the full academic year, even though their infection rates are lower than Ireland.

This clearly shows that learning is not the concern that is driving the schools to be open. It is about keeping the children away from home so that parents can work. Very contrived goals for a country which is considered somewhat developed.

Such weird goal is being pursued at the cost of forcing kids from hundreds of different households to sit in closed rooms for prolonged time - as if under an experiment. This beats all logic and common sense. Just as the reason they give - oh, data shows schools are not spreading. Data need not force you to lose all common sense.

Ireland has the lowest infection rate in the entire EU currently, and while others are implementing tighter restrictions than we have, we are easing them. Must be doing something right

Thats me · 29-11-2020 10:41pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland has the lowest infection rate in the entire EU currently, and while others are implementing tighter restrictions than we have, we are easing them. Must be doing something right

We are living on island. This is the only what we are doing right

HerrKuehn · 30-11-2020 12:16pm

Thats me wrote: »

We are living on island. This is the only what we are doing right

There is another country on the island and they are not doing quite so well. So there must be something other than just being an island (although it is an advantage I agree).

Thats me · 30-11-2020 12:31pm

HerrKuehn wrote: »

There is another country on the island and they are not doing quite so well. So there must be something other than just being an island (although it is an advantage I agree).

Valid point, as always from you!

Stateofyou · 30-11-2020 12:36pm

How is NI defining a close contact, especially in their schools.

DSN · 30-11-2020 7:46pm

niamh247 wrote: »

Why so much struggle and why being so much tense? Why can't teaching be done online??? I don't believe kids are learning any better in schools with all the masks and tension themselves. Why can't Ireland come off from it's archaic thinking and sticking to blind beliefs about schooling?

Many countries avoided this mess and tension by declaring schools to be onlie for the full academic year, even though their infection rates are lower than Ireland.

This clearly shows that learning is not the concern that is driving the schools to be open. It is about keeping the children away from home so that parents can work. Very contrived goals for a country which is considered somewhat developed.

Such weird goal is being pursued at the cost of forcing kids from hundreds of different households to sit in closed rooms for prolonged time - as if under an experiment. This beats all logic and common sense. Just as the reason they give - oh, data shows schools are not spreading. Data need not force you to lose all common sense.

Have you primary kids that were supposedly 'taught' on line March-June? It was a disaster even when teachers tried their best you cannot capture a young audience like that on-line. My eldest in 1st year now & the amount of stuff they've gone through already in the classroom & he's interested again. There is no way he'd have 'got it' on line.

I don't think anyone is saying schools have a bubble around them at all, its a def a risky environment which could be improved upon, but somehow staff are making it work & my kids are learning again which am so relieved about.

meeeeh · 30-11-2020 8:46pm

niamh247 wrote: »

Why so much struggle and why being so much tense? Why can't teaching be done online??? I don't believe kids are learning any better in schools with all the masks and tension themselves. Why can't Ireland come off from it's archaic thinking and sticking to blind beliefs about schooling?

Many countries avoided this mess and tension by declaring schools to be onlie for the full academic year, even though their infection rates are lower than Ireland.

This clearly shows that learning is not the concern that is driving the schools to be open. It is about keeping the children away from home so that parents can work. Very contrived goals for a country which is considered somewhat developed.

Such weird goal is being pursued at the cost of forcing kids from hundreds of different households to sit in closed rooms for prolonged time - as if under an experiment. This beats all logic and common sense. Just as the reason they give - oh, data shows schools are not spreading. Data need not force you to lose all common sense.

I'm sure every self respecting religious cult leader agrees with you...

Smacruairi · 30-11-2020 8:55pm

Public health doctors to go on strike for three days in January https://jrnl.ie/5284241

Just wondering if we will see 3diff threads on this one now.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 30-11-2020 9:01pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Public health doctors to go on strike for three days in January https://jrnl.ie/5284241

Just wondering if we will see 3diff threads on this one now.

F*ckin teachers

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 30-11-2020 9:04pm

niamh247 wrote: »

Why can't teaching be done online??? I don't believe kids are learning any better in schools with all the masks and tension themselves.

Can only speak for our place but the students delighted with themselves.

You should see them playing soccer at break time or chatting with their friends. Happy as pigs in it.

wirelessdude01 · 30-11-2020 9:35pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Public health doctors to go on strike for three days in January https://jrnl.ie/5284241

Just wondering if we will see 3diff threads on this one now.

Like hell we will.

Stateofyou · 30-11-2020 11:50pm

DSN wrote: »

Have you primary kids that were supposedly 'taught' on line March-June? It was a disaster even when teachers tried their best you cannot capture a young audience like that on-line. My eldest in 1st year now & the amount of stuff they've gone through already in the classroom & he's interested again. There is no way he'd have 'got it' on line.

I don't think anyone is saying schools have a bubble around them at all, its a def a risky environment which could be improved upon, but somehow staff are making it work & my kids are learning again which am so relieved about.

Schools suddenly closed and with no notice. Though there are some teachers/schools who could have dug in a bit harder, I remember many parents being home and in shock too. It was very, very stressful financially and mentally for people and children too. There was a big focus at the start of people looking after themselves and their families and spending quality time together and enjoying the shockingly good weather we were having then.

This time, schools are prepared and ready to go online if needed. Teachers at our school have a plan in place and have trained themselves and the students on how to use the online software. If schools closed again, it would in no way compare to the first time in March.

Not all schools, Staff and students are coming through unscathed though. There been a lot of positive tests, stress and chaos in many schools. Many families with high risk family members are living with extreme stress. All depends on who you talk to. I agree with you that the risky environment can and should be improved upon.

HerrKuehn · 01-12-2020 9:12am

Stateofyou wrote: »

Schools suddenly closed and with no notice. Though there are some teachers/schools who could have dug in a bit harder, I remember many parents being home and in shock too. It was very, very stressful financially and mentally for people and children too. There was a big focus at the start of people looking after themselves and their families and spending quality time together and enjoying the shockingly good weather we were having then.

It was tried, it didn't work out well. If there had been more effort, maybe there wouldn't be so much resistance to it now. There was no official evaluation of how it went as I would imagine it would not look good on schools/teachers. Everyone gets a gold star and we move on, but lets not try it again seems to be the government position.
Also, not everyone had time to enjoy the shockingly good weather as you put it. Many had to continue to work as normal, others had to increase hours and shifts (in hospitals for example).

Stateofyou · 01-12-2020 9:45am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

It was tried, it didn't work out well. If there had been more effort, maybe there wouldn't be so much resistance to it now. There was no official evaluation of how it went as I would imagine it would not look good on schools/teachers. Everyone gets a gold star and we move on, but lets not try it again seems to be the government position.
Also, not everyone had time to enjoy the shockingly good weather as you put it. Many had to continue to work as normal, others had to increase hours and shifts (in hospitals for example).

I know not everyone could enjoy the good weather, and I didn't say that everyone could. I said I remembered many parents were home.

I have family in the US and Canada. Their early school shutdown situations sounded very similar to ours. The difference being about 2 months later their DES's pulled their heads out of their ar$e's and implemented hybrid remote learning plans with IT/tech rollouts. They're not perfect but they're much better and families/teachers especially those at more high risk have more choice.

HerrKuehn · 01-12-2020 9:54am

Stateofyou wrote: »

I know not everyone could enjoy the good weather, and I didn't say that everyone could. I said I remembered many parents were home.

I have family in the US and Canada. Their early school shutdown situations sounded very similar to ours. The difference being about 2 months later their DES's pulled their heads out of their ar$e's and implemented hybrid remote learning plans with IT/tech rollouts. They're not perfect but they're much better and families/teachers especially those at more high risk have more choice.

I don't think many people here were looking for the DES to roll out an improved remote learning plan. It seems to me that those looking for remote learning are some of the more risk averse parents and some teachers. The schools in the US and Canada can decide whatever works best for them. I suspect it is not a rosy picture everywhere, with huge variability in quality, probably decent in well off schools and severely lacking in poorer areas.

Smacruairi · 01-12-2020 9:56am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I don't think many people here were looking for the DES to roll out an improved remote learning plan.

. I suspect it is not a rosy picture everywhere, with huge variability in quality, probably decent in well off schools and severely lacking in poorer areas.

Your 2 sentences here don't go together at all. People wanted a unified remote plan to prevent variability in quality. Sigh.

HerrKuehn · 01-12-2020 10:00am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Your 2 sentences here don't go together at all. People wanted a unified remote plan to prevent variability in quality. Sigh.

The second sentence was referring to the US and Canada, not Ireland.

Smacruairi · 01-12-2020 10:04am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

The second sentence was referring to the US and Canada, not Ireland.

I know, but it either shows why a unified plan was a necessity, or your point about Canada etc was not relevant. Which one?

HerrKuehn · 01-12-2020 10:08am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I know, but it either shows why a unified plan was a necessity, or your point about Canada etc was not relevant. Which one?

I don't think a unified plan was necessary here to be honest. I think in the case of an emergency, like a case in a class requiring the class to be off for a couple of weeks, the school should do the best they can given their individual circumstances (availability of broadband in the area etc). The other poster brought up the US and Canada, my point was really just that I doubt it is all good over there, some schools doing well and others not. I don't think it has any relevance to Ireland at all.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 10:47am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I know, but it either shows why a unified plan was a necessity, or your point about Canada etc was not relevant. Which one?

A unified plan doesn't work when schools cater very different demographic. The only unified plan that half works in that case is all schools open and everyone in schools. Anything less and differences between schools that already exist get amplified.

I haven't seen any educational expert who would look for school closures or partial school closures unless it is absolutely necessary. It is pretty clear that economic model in US and low social security means schools have to be sacrificed so that as much of economy as possible stays open. That sacrifice is not needed in Ireland at the moment so calls for combined education don't benefit anybody.

Boggles · 01-12-2020 11:04am

meeeeh wrote: »

It is pretty clear that economic model in US and low social security means schools have to be sacrificed so that as much of economy as possible stays open. That sacrifice is not needed in Ireland at the moment so calls for combined education don't benefit anybody.

Would the opposite approach not be the way to go to keep the economy open.

Like we are doing?

Smacruairi · 01-12-2020 11:18am

meeeeh wrote: »

. That sacrifice is not needed in Ireland at the moment so calls for combined education don't benefit anybody.

Tell that to the very high risk students who are not in attendance at school at the moment, or the ones who are self isolating for 2 weeks, or those who are opting out owing to parents in very high risk brackets. But hey, if you say so, for the greater good it's not even worth trying, right.

HerrKuehn · 01-12-2020 11:21am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Tell that to the very high risk students who are not in attendance at school at the moment, or the ones who are self isolating for 2 weeks, or those who are opting out owing to parents in very high risk brackets. But hey, if you say so, for the greater good it's not even worth trying, right.

To get a unified remote learning plan in place it would have required either the department and teachers working during the summer to come up with something, or pushing out the start of the school year. I would imagine the first option was off the cards and the second option isn't great for other reasons.

Smacruairi · 01-12-2020 11:27am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

To get a unified remote learning plan in place it would have required either the department and teachers working during the summer to come up with something, or pushing out the start of the school year. I would imagine the first option was off the cards and the second option isn't great for other reasons.

The DES works through the summer. They are not teachers and their contracts are clearly not based off the teaching model. So I don't know why you are defending that as a reason.

No need to push out the start of the school year at all, are you mad? Why are you happy with such incompetence from the govt?
You were happy to lambast a school in Carlow based on fake news, but now you think the DES needs more than 6 months to come up with a remote plan to assist those at most risk and need?

HerrKuehn · 01-12-2020 11:36am

Smacruairi wrote: »

The DES works through the summer. They are not teachers and their contracts are clearly not based off the teaching model. So I don't know why you are defending that as a reason.

No need to push out the start of the school year at all, are you mad? Why are you happy with such incompetence from the govt?
You were happy to lambast a school in Carlow based on fake news, but now you think the DES needs more than 6 months to come up with a remote plan to assist those at most risk and need?

I think it is very difficult for the state (different governments come and go) to get their employees to do anything different than what they currently do. We don't see much in the way of innovation here, that is why we have the current level of services. I have a very low expectation based on experience and so from that point of view I am not disappointed.
I have no idea what you mean about the school in Carlow.
My childs school were off for 2 weeks due to a case, I think they handled the remote learning reasonably well in that time. No idea if they have been given direction from the DES. If not, they have used their own imagination and come up with something themselves without waiting for a circular from the department.
Some schools managed to do well with the remote learning initially as well, I believe the institute of education were streaming classes. The teachers there probably have a different level of motivation though and there would be a lot more expectation on them. It wouldn't be acceptable to hang around waiting for a circular while enjoying the lovely sunshine I suppose.

frank8211 · 01-12-2020 11:52am

Multiple Covid-19 cases have been confirmed at a school in Co Galway.
An urgent letter was sent to parents and guardians at the school by the HSE last Friday.
They were told that all close contacts of the cases had been contacted.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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