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BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

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    #5192
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    going to be mayhem when this comes in.
    And everyone's just tootling along merrily on the back streets of Kimmage now, are they? If it wasn't already mayhem there would be no need for BusConnects.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #5193
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    BeerNut wrote: »
    And everyone's just tootling along merrily on the back streets of Kimmage now, are they? If it wasn't already mayhem there would be no need for BusConnects.

    Adding more buses with just signs to try stop people blocking it up is going to make it much worse.


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    #5194
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,790 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    So, hang on: is the traffic going to divert according to the signage and choke the side streets, or ignore the signs and continue choking LKR? You can't have both.

    My beer blog | The Twitter | My other beer blog



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    #5195
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Bus gates, rather than bus lanes, tend to work fairly well in Ireland, weirdly enough. College Green is mostly blocked by taxis rather than private vehicles, and the odd blitz that the Garda do of the area seems to keep the peace. I'd imagine when these new bus gates open, there will be a heavy police presence for the first couple of weeks.


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    #5196
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    BeerNut wrote: »
    So, hang on: is the traffic going to divert according to the signage and choke the side streets, or ignore the signs and continue choking LKR? You can't have both.

    You can have both, that's sort of how traffic works, one road gets blocked up and all the roads that lead onto/off from it get blocked up as a result


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    #5197
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    BeerNut wrote: »
    So, hang on: is the traffic going to divert according to the signage and choke the side streets, or ignore the signs and continue choking LKR? You can't have both.

    It doesn't really work like that. Traffic isn't like water in a pipe at constant pressure, it's a much more fickle phenomenon. The perceived lack of utility of other routes will prevent many car trips from taking place in the first place.


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    #5198
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    There needs to be cameras and cold hard AI enforcement. Not just in Kimamge but across Dublin. It works well in Belfast so can be easily replicated. Even with our current set of bus lanes if there were strong enforcement, and thus 95% compliance, journey times would be greatly reduced without spending anything on new bus lanes.


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    #5199
    Tom1991
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Tom1991


    BeerNut wrote: »
    And everyone's just tootling along merrily on the back streets of Kimmage now, are they? If it wasn't already mayhem there would be no need for BusConnects.

    Farce of a situation really but I lived in poddle close(not far from kimmage road)and worked on George’s street for a time and would handidly beat the 9 walking its route some evenings.I used to make a game of it sometimes in my head.The community not corridor crowd are taking the tantrum approach to this and winning.Theres edge cases I’m sure that can be accommodated for but for the most part you have no business driving into the city centre for work in a 9-5 scenario.


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    #5200
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    It's the south west of the city that stands to gain the most form bus connects, mostly due to the existing road widths and lack of bus priority. Compare it to the Malahide road or Bray-City Centre cbc, both of which are more/less already there. Ironically the places that have little/nothing to gain from the cbc project are the quietest about it. Places like Kimmage will be brought within 15 mins commute of the quays by bus connects in peak times, that's a tremendous win compared to the current walking pace of buses at peak times.


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    #5201
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    cgcsb wrote: »
    It's the south west of the city that stands to gain the most form bus connects, mostly due to the existing road widths and lack of bus priority. Compare it to the Malahide road or Bray-City Centre cbc, both of which are more/less already there. Ironically the places that have little/nothing to gain from the cbc project are the quietest about it. Places like Kimmage will be brought within 15 mins commute of the quays by bus connects in peak times, that's a tremendous win compared to the current walking pace of buses at peak times.

    Problem people in the south west is while I'm largely in favour of bus connects the plans are half ased and done by someone that hasn't experienced commuting in the area and the expansion capacity isn't really there, it's a short to medium term fix that will need completely redoing in a decade or two with all the new housing estates being built south west of the city.


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    #5202
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Problem people in the south west is while I'm largely in favour of bus connects the plans are half ased and done by someone that hasn't experienced commuting in the area and the expansion capacity isn't really there, it's a short to medium term fix that will need completely redoing in a decade or two with all the new housing estates being built south west of the city.

    Can you be specific? I would put it to you, you don't have to actually do the commute yourself to plan a great system, it's sort of a science at this stage.
    What aspects do you view as half assed? I'm talking about the previous iteration of plans here and what would you suggest as an improvement?


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    #5203
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Can you be specific? I would put it to you, you don't have to actually do the commute yourself to plan a great system, it's sort of a science at this stage.
    What aspects do you view as half assed? I'm talking about the previous iteration of plans here and what would you suggest as an improvement?

    There'd be too much to type here but they start routes in the middle of busy streets with nowhere for buses to wait, the cycle paths are unpractical and a danger to everyone at nearly every point in some routes.

    I think you do. Some things can look good in theory and on paper but be completely impractical in practice.


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    #5204
    Qrt
    Registered Users Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭Qrt


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Bus gates, rather than bus lanes, tend to work fairly well in Ireland, weirdly enough. College Green is mostly blocked by taxis rather than private vehicles, and the odd blitz that the Garda do of the area seems to keep the peace. I'd imagine when these new bus gates open, there will be a heavy police presence for the first couple of weeks.

    Seconded, there one at The Square and the Old Blessington Road are grand. There’s the odd offender, but it’s never chockablock with offenders.


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    #5205
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    There'd be too much to type here but they start routes in the middle of busy streets with nowhere for buses to wait, the cycle paths are unpractical and a danger to everyone at nearly every point in some routes.

    I think you do. Some things can look good in theory and on paper but be completely impractical in practice.

    Yeah if you're not going to be specific and offer alternatives, why even say anything?


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    #5206
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Yeah if you're not going to be specific and offer alternatives, why even say anything?

    Oh right sorry I forgot this was the bus connects board meeting, I already put details in my submission.


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    #5207
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Oh right sorry I forgot this was the bus connects board meeting, I already put details in my submission.

    ok grand


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    #5208
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    Oh right sorry I forgot this was the bus connects board meeting, I already put details in my submission.

    If you put it in a submission, just copy and paste that submission here, no?


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    #5209
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    MJohnston wrote: »
    If you put it in a submission, just copy and paste that submission here, no?

    I think it's simply a case that he hasn't really thought about it.


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    #5210
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    MJohnston wrote: »
    If you put it in a submission, just copy and paste that submission here, no?

    I really can't be arsed finding it copy and pasting it, making sure the images post correctly, etc.

    The synopsis was routes start in the middle of busy roads with no area for them to wait, cycle lanes have blind turns, sharp turns, turns into shared paths, cross over the road every so often, switch between road level and footpath level, cross over footpaths, go through the middle of schools, takes unnecessarily long detours. Overall they're just unsafe and unpractical so won't be used which defeats the purpose


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    #5211
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    I really can't be arsed finding it copy and pasting it, making sure the images post correctly, etc.

    The synopsis was routes start in the middle of busy roads with no area for them to wait, cycle lanes have blind turns, sharp turns, turns into shared paths, cross over the road every so often, switch between road level and footpath level, cross over footpaths, go through the middle of schools, takes unnecessarily long detours. Overall they're just unsafe and unpractical so won't be used which defeats the purpose

    I cant see anywhere on the bus conencts maps where routes 'start in the middle of busy roads'. The cycle lanes are far from ideal conditions but given the available space, they've done pretty well. Cyclists will be allowed use the bus lanes where the cycle lane is on a 'safer' detour. Level change in bike paths is to provide separation and then allow for at grade junctions. Can't see bike lanes going through schools either, except for the defunct Rathmines alternative route.


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    #5212
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I cant see anywhere on the bus conencts maps where routes 'start in the middle of busy roads'. The cycle lanes are far from ideal conditions but given the available space, they've done pretty well. Cyclists will be allowed use the bus lanes where the cycle lane is on a 'safer' detour. Level change in bike paths is to provide separation and then allow for at grade junctions. Can't see bike lanes going through schools either, except for the defunct Rathmines alternative route.
    This is dangerous. The current position is that cyclists are not required to use cycle lanes but an 'In the interest of BusConnects' reintroduction of mandatory use of cycle lanes puts cyclists at risk of poorly designed infrastructure.

    This, in turn, will mean that cyclists will ignore the poor cycle lanes, continue using the road and come into conflict with motorised vehicles because the roadway was not designed with cyclists in mind ("because they'll be on the cycle lane").


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    #5213
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    This is dangerous. The current position is that cyclists are not required to use cycle lanes but an 'In the interest of BusConnects' reintroduction of mandatory use of cycle lanes puts cyclists at risk of poorly designed infrastructure.

    This, in turn, will mean that cyclists will ignore the poor cycle lanes, continue using the road and come into conflict with motorised vehicles because the roadway was not designed with cyclists in mind ("because they'll be on the cycle lane").

    That's some inception stuff right there.


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    #5214
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I cant see anywhere on the bus conencts maps where routes 'start in the middle of busy roads'. The cycle lanes are far from ideal conditions but given the available space, they've done pretty well. Cyclists will be allowed use the bus lanes where the cycle lane is on a 'safer' detour. Level change in bike paths is to provide separation and then allow for at grade junctions. Can't see bike lanes going through schools either, except for the defunct Rathmines alternative route.

    A route starts on Grange Road which gets very busy. They've not done well, just to pick one example there's one area where cyclists if they want to stay on that path have to cross the road, cross over the footpath twice, make a 90degree turn where they can't see what's around the corner onto a shared path in a narrow ally. All that's within 10meters. That's not safe. You say defunct, it's just to the side for now since they haven't managed to sort out rathmines at all yet


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    #5215
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    No one in the cycling community is at all happy with BusConnects for cycling, it's better than what's there but no way would you send your 10 year old child down the routes which should be the aim.

    Check out posts on dublincycling.ie and irishcycl.come


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    #5216
    cdaly_
    Registered Users Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    cgcsb wrote: »
    cdaly_ wrote: »
    This is dangerous. The current position is that cyclists are not required to use cycle lanes but an 'In the interest of BusConnects' reintroduction of mandatory use of cycle lanes puts cyclists at risk of poorly designed infrastructure.

    This, in turn, will mean that cyclists will ignore the poor cycle lanes, continue using the road and come into conflict with motorised vehicles because the roadway was not designed with cyclists in mind ("because they'll be on the cycle lane").
    That's some inception stuff right there.
    Ah if only...
    • 2012: Transport Minister Leo Varadkar signs Si No. 332 of 2012 removing mandatory use of cycle lanes.
    • 2016: Dept of Transport says "Oh no, that's not what he meant. You must use cycle lanes no matter what".
    • 2017: Transport Minister Shane Ross says "Sorry, Leo Varadkar's intention in 2012 was to remove mandatory use of cycle lanes".
    • 2018: Transport Minister Shane Ross signs Si No. 321 of 2018 removing mandatory use of cycle lanes which was already removed in 2012.

    Inception indeed...

    In the meantime, various cyclists report abuse from motorists when cycling on the road because they are not cycling in the defective/unsafe cycle lane nearby. I would expect, with BusConnects, that cycling in the bus lane* will attract similar abuse whether the nearby cycle lane is useable or not.

    *Bus lanes are currently useable by buses, taxis and cyclists.


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    #5217
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,790 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I'd imagine where an "alternative" route is provided for cyclists, you'll still be able to cycle along the bus route if you want/need to. Otherwise how would you cycle to (for example) Shankill village?


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    #5218
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    A route starts on Grange Road which gets very busy. They've not done well, just to pick one example there's one area where cyclists if they want to stay on that path have to cross the road, cross over the footpath twice, make a 90degree turn where they can't see what's around the corner onto a shared path in a narrow ally. All that's within 10meters. That's not safe. You say defunct, it's just to the side for now since they haven't managed to sort out rathmines at all yet

    There's no routes starting on Grange Road in BusConnects


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    #5219
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    so at the rate we're going is there any chance of this being in place anytime before 2025?


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    #5220
    D14Rugby
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭D14Rugby


    cgcsb wrote: »
    There's no routes starting on Grange Road in BusConnects

    The A4. And on the leaks it starts beside Nutgrove which is same problem different place.


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    #5221
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,277 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    D14Rugby wrote: »
    The A4. And on the leaks it starts beside Nutgrove which is same problem different place.

    The bit of Grange Road that's being significantly widened there under the cbc project? Also, as you stated, the latest iteration of bus connects has it terminating at nutgrove instead.


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