How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017

Dyr · 16-01-2017 10:15am

On a 4 right now, straight ahead of it is a 4C that's not showing up On RTPI and hasn't a sinner on board.

The cowboy behaviour needs to be curbed

bk · 16-01-2017 5:52pm

D8 boy wrote: »

But a flat fare has to be relatively low so as not to deter passengers making short trips so it generally requires more subsidy.

Actually mostly you want to discourage people from taking short journeys on public transport. You want them walking or cycling instead of taking up space of people who are travelling long distance and have no other choice.

That is why Luas has a high fare for travelling just one zone, but only slightly more expensive for travelling 2 or more shows. To discourage people from travelling just one zone.

You see the same with public transport all over Europe, look at London Underground zone fees, the 80c initial fixed fee for getting on a dutch public transport, followed by the much lower per km fee, etc.

Frankly the city center fare shows just how out of touch DB are with international best practice for public transport! Plus IME many of the people using the city center fare are scammers who are actually travelling much further.

And before anyone mentions it, elderly and disabled people who can't walk/cycle short distances are of course already covered by the Free Travel Scheme.

Elemonator · 16-01-2017 5:59pm

I would have said add extra Nitelinks. On my route, the 33, they only run Friday/Saturday at 12, 2 and 4. Which is strange, as nearly every student in the country hits town on a Thursday.

We are the only European capital, in my experience, without a 24 hour bus service. Even countries poorer and less densely populated than Ireland have them. Not sure if its lack of funding (they might have ran before the crash but not during it) or unions causing a big hullabaloo about nothing.

hmmm · 16-01-2017 7:15pm

Asa Shy Ferryboat wrote: »

A relative works for the company and has asked around on what the operational reason for 25a not running so frequently is and was told it was simply lack of drivers.

There's tens of thousands unemployed, and they can hire from anywhere in the EU for what is a well paid job in comparison to most countries. If drivers aren't turning up for work there should be HR processes. "Lack of drivers" is a management problem.

I can understand the difficulties of showing proper times on RTPI when there are variables such as traffic. I don't think anyone in the city centre should expect times to be anything other than estimates. What shouldn't be appearing are ghost buses which are not running.

I've been on several of those buses that (out of nowhere) decide to terminate in the the city centre. "But how do I get to my destination?", met with a shrug and a "not my problem bud" attitude.

The biggest thing that could be done to improve bus services (and all public transport) is less of the "good enough" and more attention to detail and quality in their work. You start with the little things - make sure everyone wears their uniform, make sure that sloppy little things aren't let pass.

end of the road · 16-01-2017 8:09pm

Elemonator wrote: »

I would have said add extra Nitelinks. On my route, the 33, they only run Friday/Saturday at 12, 2 and 4. Which is strange, as nearly every student in the country hits town on a Thursday.

We are the only European capital, in my experience, without a 24 hour bus service. Even countries poorer and less densely populated than Ireland have them. Not sure if its lack of funding (they might have ran before the crash but not during it) or unions causing a big hullabaloo about nothing.

it's nothing to do with unions, as from what i understand the agreements for running night links are all ready in place and have been for years.

r93kaey5p2izun · 16-01-2017 8:26pm

hmmm wrote: »

There's tens of thousands unemployed, and they can hire from anywhere in the EU for what is a well paid job in comparison to most countries. If drivers aren't turning up for work there should be HR processes. "Lack of drivers" is a management problem.

I don't know much about it but I thought there had been an embargo on hiring for a long time leading to shortages of drivers. I thought recruitment had started up again some time back but maybe it will take time to catch up?

KD345 · 16-01-2017 8:51pm

Bambi wrote: »

On a 4 right now, straight ahead of it is a 4C that's not showing up On RTPI and hasn't a sinner on board.

The cowboy behaviour needs to be curbed

Nothing cowboy about it, this is simply a bus running in service to or from Harristown depot providing extra capacity on a key corridor. You'll see this happen every morning with many Xpresso services arriving in UCD or DCU and then operating a service on their way back to the depot. It may have been empty this morning but very often these extra services fill a gap in service. Either way, better to have it operate than run empty to the depot along the same corridor.

Dyr · 16-01-2017 9:01pm

KD345 wrote: »

Nothing cowboy about it, this is simply a bus running in service to or from Harristown depot providing extra capacity on a key corridor. You'll see this happen every morning with many Xpresso services arriving in UCD or DCU and then operating a service on their way back to the depot. It may have been empty this morning but very often these extra services fill a gap in service. Either way, better to have it operate than run empty to the depot along the same corridor.

Not on RTPI and not providing any extra service, there was a proper 4 right behind it. Same with the 1 in the opposite direction this evening.

The 4 is a right shambles at times and the dublin bus solution seems to be ad hoc 4ish buses rather than fixing the problem

KD345 · 16-01-2017 9:19pm

Bambi wrote: »

Not on RTPI and not providing any extra service, there was a proper 4 right behind it. Same with the 1 in the opposite direction this evening.

The 4 is a right shambles at times and the dublin bus solution seems to be ad hoc 4ish buses rather than fixing the problem

The RTPI will only show scheduled services, and as these are extras and operate as directed by Dublin Bus central control, they don't display on screens or on apps. For example, it might operate as a 4 today or a 13 or 83 tomorrow so hard to plan.

I completely agree, both the 1 and 4 need attention to address the timetable problems but I don't think what you describe above is being offered as a solution. It is simply a bus returning to the depot picking up passengers along the way instead of going empty. I don't have a problem with that.

D8 boy · 16-01-2017 10:04pm

bk wrote: »

Actually mostly you want to discourage people from taking short journeys on public transport. You want them walking or cycling instead of taking up space of people who are travelling long distance and have no other choice.

Perhaps true from an overall transport planning perspective. But for the bus operator it's all revenue. If you set a flat fare at the average of the current fares, say €2.40, some of the people currently paying €1.50 or €2.05 may not longer bother getting the bus so that revenue is foregone. I don't think it's any accident that flat fares are rare in the UK (outside of London) where subsidy levels are low.

My point is that technology such as the Leap card means you can have a relatively complex fare structure but not require manual intervention.

In Ireland, where subsidies to bus services have always been given grudgingly as some sort of temporary support rather than a necessary cost of running an essential service, I don't think moving to a flat fare model is a good idea.

sharper · 16-01-2017 10:59pm

KD345 wrote: »

The RTPI will only show scheduled services, and as these are extras and operate as directed by Dublin Bus central control, they don't display on screens or on apps. For example, it might operate as a 4 today or a 13 or 83 tomorrow so hard to plan.

In the spirit of what we can do to improve the service the real time system clearly needs work. It's really just the schedule plus some occasional real time updates.

The priority needs to shift around and display what busses are actually running and where they are. This would make the system infinitely more useful when there's a disruption.

If a scheduled bus isn't running it needs to be marked as such in the system and not just disappear.

I don't see any signs the real time system has had any improvements since it launched. Right now I bet google has a better grasp of where every dublin bus is and where it's going than anyone else.

Bray Head · 16-01-2017 11:17pm

bk wrote: »

Frankly the city center fare shows just how out of touch DB are with international best practice for public transport! Plus IME many of the people using the city center fare are scammers who are actually travelling much further.

I agree. But how much use does it get? The zone is actually quite small and the buses move so slowly I generally find it's as quick to walk.

Also, DB don't publicise it much any more.

Dyr · 16-01-2017 11:39pm

sharper wrote: »

In the spirit of what we can do to improve the service the real time system clearly needs work. It's really just the schedule plus some occasional real time updates.

The priority needs to shift around and display what busses are actually running and where they are. This would make the system infinitely more useful when there's a disruption.

If a scheduled bus isn't running it needs to be marked as such in the system and not just disappear.

I don't see any signs the real time system has had any improvements since it launched. Right now I bet google has a better grasp of where every dublin bus is and where it's going than anyone else.

RTPI is not actually real time (:D) dublin bus manage the feed and update/don't update the info as the controllers play around with the buses

It should be fairly fundamental that RTPI should be real time and every single change should be reflected.

As it is you get the impression Dublin Bus are playing silly beggars with RTPI rather than let it reflect their actual performance levels

Was'nt there an app that tracked dublin buses in real time at some stage?

Dravokivich · 17-01-2017 10:32am

hmmm wrote: »

There's tens of thousands unemployed, and they can hire from anywhere in the EU for what is a well paid job in comparison to most countries. If drivers aren't turning up for work there should be HR processes. "Lack of drivers" is a management problem.

I can understand the difficulties of showing proper times on RTPI when there are variables such as traffic. I don't think anyone in the city centre should expect times to be anything other than estimates. What shouldn't be appearing are ghost buses which are not running.

I've been on several of those buses that (out of nowhere) decide to terminate in the the city centre. "But how do I get to my destination?", met with a shrug and a "not my problem bud" attitude.

The biggest thing that could be done to improve bus services (and all public transport) is less of the "good enough" and more attention to detail and quality in their work. You start with the little things - make sure everyone wears their uniform, make sure that sloppy little things aren't let pass.

How many of them have the required driving license and CPC? Dublin Bus stopped putting people through for a license a few years ago. Unsure if they've gone back on that.

Art(h)ur · 17-01-2017 12:39pm

[Sorry for the length of this post, the philosophy of public transport is just so much fun!]

1)

bk wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason why you couldn't operate a flat fare and still continue the travel 90 discount!

Tag-on the first bus, pay €2, tag on the second bus within 90 minutes pay just €1. The coding in the ticket machines can easily work all this out, jsut as they do today.

This would be 50% discount, I was referring to a 100% discount, i.e. unlimited free transfers within a specified period of time. Paying €1 on the second bus is obviously better than paying €2 but it's still an extra charge, effectively penalising for (and hence discouraging from) changing a bus.

We all seem to agree on the goal of much shorter boarding times. Adding anything to the process, like the requirement to tag off would be a step in the wrong direction right now. I would much prefer to see and experience the benefits of eliminating interaction with the driver first, before considering any further changes.

Let alone other issues: tagging off would require a massive information campaign and a change in people's habits - we haven't got much success with using the middle doors in this regard (most passengers still head for the exit at the front, without even looking at the middle door). And cities that have introduced it had to face serious resistance - you're asking passengers to do more than today, why should they bother with extra hassle when they can demand the current solution, more convenient for them, to be retained?

So my argument in favour of the flat fare for Dublin is that it will significantly reduce the boarding times as I believe this is one of the key reasons why bus journeys in Dublin are slow and the travel time is unpredictable. The flat fare model has some disadvantages but I think it's a trade off worth doing if we manage to speed up the journeys. Also, the fare structure is overly complex today and fare simplicity has the power to attract new passengers, which is the ultimate goal (people switching from cars to public transport).

Specifically, a flat fare allowing for free transfers within, say, 90 minutes is in fact a time-based ticket. It can be set at a level that does not discourage existing passengers and is successful in attracting new ones, which would result in low subsidy required. By the way, Dublin Bus has been recording profit for three years in a row, suggesting they're quite good at managing their costs - another reason to expect low subsidy (as is the case today).

2)

D8 boy wrote: »

It was something I found in an OECD report when I was wring my MSc thesis, many years ago! The report doesn't seem to be downloadable unless you have a subscription rot the OECD library. Eyeballing the Wikipedia entry on farebox ratio would suggest it's still the case, especially as it does include entries from UK cities apart from London which generally have graduated fares, and high farebox ratios.

Would agree with this explanation:

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Low fares to encourage use perhaps because the costs of the subvention are offset elsewhere in the economy.

So it's due to the levels of fare, not the method of its derivation (flat, zone, time, distance). In fact, the same Wikipedia article shows Stockholm and Munich with only slightly higher levels of farebox recovery than Brussels, despite having a zone-based fare, while Toronto is doing much better with a flate fare. I guess you can always pick counter examples due to numerous factors impacting the farebox recovery that I mentioned earlier.

3)

bk wrote: »

Actually mostly you want to discourage people from taking short journeys on public transport. You want them walking or cycling instead of taking up space of people who are travelling long distance and have no other choice.

My experience suggests that outside of Dublin plenty of people use public transport for short journeys (up to 15 minutes on a bus vs. over 30 minutes' walk), especially in city centres. So if these journeys are truly being actively discouraged, the authorities are dramatically failing at that. I'd say promoting walking and cycling for short distances is targeted at driving (e.g. school runs) rather than at public transport.

In terms of taking up space of long-distance passengers, that's down to route planning: if there are separate local, orbital and cross-city routes then e.g. you have a different route to your local shopping centre (that terminates there) and a different route to city centre (that bypasses the local shops). Also, part of the issue in Dublin is caused by poor frequencies of some long-distance routes.

There may be a simpler explanation for the decreasing cost per km: that's just the way it has always been and it generally works, if it's not broken - don't fix it

If you really need a rationale, I would think the reason for a larger cost of the first kilometre and a small incremental cost of additional kilometres is that a pure linear fare calculation (e.g. 1 km = €1, 2 km = €2) would not work in practice. Either the short journeys would be very cheap (and as they are popular, it would be a large hit to the revenue) or the long journeys would be very expensive (so nobody would take them).

Or with an accountant's hat on: the higher cost of first km is intended to cover fixed costs (which could be substantial in the world of PT) and the cheaper additional km reflects variable costs.

bk · 17-01-2017 8:56pm

Art(h)ur the problem with suggesting flat fare here on boards, in particular a T90 style one across all operators, is that soon after you will have a flood of CIE fanboys come in and scream bloody murder that the fare box of DB and the operators will simply melt if you implement such a system and that there is no way it can be done unless the government increases the subsidy by x10!! :rolleyes:

Seriously I've suggested the same myself many times over the years and the same people will always pop up to tell you why it won't work.

Of course non of them will be able to explain why the accountants at DB are so poor and how they can't take the ridiculous amount of fare information DB has to model a flat fare that would be largely revenue neutral.

Nor will they be able to explain why such fare systems have worked so successfully all over Europe over the last 40 years. Of course they will scream that CIE receives far less subsidy then other EU operators, but they will forget to mention that the subsidy doesn't include the Free Travel Allowance or the buses, etc. that the NTA buys from them. Take those into account and you will be back to about the same level of subsidy.

You are correct a T90 style flat fare at least across DB and preferably across all public transport would go a long way to fix Dublins PT issues.

In fact you wouldn't even need Leap to do this, they have been doing exactly this all over Germany, Poland, etc. for the last 40 years with timestamped tickets, so easy.

It really does show how terribly out of touch DB are with public transport best practice.

The Dutch system is a compromise. While not quiet as good as flat fare, I do believe it is much better then the existing system as it allows for zero interaction with the driver. It has also the advantage that it can be used with the existing fare structure, so the CIE fanboys have no excuse why it can't be implemented.

As for the Dutch style needing major re-education of passengers. Not really. The tag-on/tag-off style is already used on Luas and Dart, so not that different. If a person forgets to tag-off, no big deal, they just end up paying the max bus fare, that type of things tends to sharpen minds quickly.

But I agree with you, flat fare would be better. But either way we simply can't continue with the currently horribly broken system.

loyatemu · 18-01-2017 11:34am

zone based system is the answer - we already have Leap, all that's need is an upgraded scanner on the buses to allow for tag off (or some sort of basic 3g-connected scanner on stop poles). Tag on, tag off each journey, let the system figure out how many zones you've crossed using whatever mode.

lil5 · 18-01-2017 1:07pm

loyatemu wrote: »

zone based system is the answer - we already have Leap, all that's need is an upgraded scanner on the buses to allow for tag off (or some sort of basic 3g-connected scanner on stop poles). Tag on, tag off each journey, let the system figure out how many zones you've crossed using whatever mode.

A simple multi-modal zonal system with good value weekly/monthly/yearly tickets (without any need of tag on/off) would be my answer.

Regular commuters shouldn't have to interact with any reader/scanner on their 220+ day/year trips, never mind asking a DB driver for a specific fare.

Tagging on and off for each journey should only be for people making occasional journeys and paying via their epurse (aka leap card) or their debit/credit card.

Abolish cash fares and driver interaction altogether.

The should be ticket machines on buses and trains.

howiya · 18-01-2017 1:34pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Removing taxi's not carrying passengers from the bus lane would help improve journey times. Possible consideration?

How would it be enforced?

drake70 · 18-01-2017 1:59pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Removing taxi's not carrying passengers from the bus lane would help improve journey times. Possible consideration?

A taxi can use a normal (with-flow) bus lane only while it is operating as an SPSV – carrying a passenger, on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer, or plying for hire. Taxis must not use bus lanes if they are not operating as an SPSV – for example, driving home at the end of a shift, travelling on personal business, or transporting only goods and not passengers.

Taxis are not allowed to use contra-flow bus lanes (in which traffic travels in the opposite direction to the traffic beside it) under any circumstances.

Hackneys and limousines are not permitted to use bus lanes.

Source: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

Mostly there already. Although "plying for trade" may be used in any circumstance.

pclive · 18-01-2017 2:02pm

There is currently zero bus lane enforcement in place

On board and fixed cameras are needed ASAP

BonnieSituation · 19-01-2017 3:16am

Taxis are not allowed to use contra-flow bus lanes (in which traffic travels in the opposite direction to the traffic beside it) under any circumstances.

What's the point of this one?

Not that you would ever see it enforced. It's silly. I mean, imagine driving down Stoneybatter and looping around rather than heading straight down to Blackhall Place. I can only imagine the words a passenger might have.

Or even on St Stephens Green East?

Bizarre.

loyatemu · 19-01-2017 10:24am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's the point of this one?

Not that you would ever see it enforced. It's silly. I mean, imagine driving down Stoneybatter and looping around rather than heading straight down to Blackhall Place. I can only imagine the words a passenger might have.

Or even on St Stephens Green South?

Bizarre.

something to do with overtaking?

cython · 19-01-2017 12:51pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's the point of this one?

Not that you would ever see it enforced. It's silly. I mean, imagine driving down Stoneybatter and looping around rather than heading straight down to Blackhall Place. I can only imagine the words a passenger might have.

Or even on St Stephens Green South?

Bizarre.

Strictly speaking, unless streetview is out of date, which I accept it may be as I don't travel through there very often, that's not technically a contraflow bus lane that you mention for Blackhall Place (and the signage in the lined image explitly allows taxis): https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3500992,-6.2817797,3a,19.7y,180.78h,82.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLBVtiqTIiU7X-N9ys8PWjg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The road markings where I have linked for southbound traffic do not indicate a bus lane (rather it is limited entry/access). SSG south also does not have a contraflow bus lane (perhaps you mean Earlsfort Tce, or SSG east, which as you mention are not particularly well enforced with even private vehicles being a reasonably regular presence?).

As to the why, I'd imagine it could be something along the lines of a number of contraflow lanes only being provided to facilitate or preserve bus routes, which would otherwise entail a significant detour and delay for a large volume of people (primary motivation), whereas sending taxis on those detours frankly does not have the same impact to anywhere near that volume of people.

BonnieSituation · 19-01-2017 6:31pm

You're right re SSG East. That's what I meant. But the designation and discrimination against taxis does seem bizarre. I mean I can't imagine it being such that taxis are getting in the way of buses on these routes.

It's just the sort of weird legal clause that always gets my goat up.

Also, kudos on the description of Blackhall. Probably why it isn't designated as a contra-flow so as to allow taxis to use it.

Slutmonkey57b · 19-01-2017 9:33pm

Contraflow lanes are more risky one would assume and any public transport user has their share of bizarre taxi driver manoevres that has caused a bus to stop suddenly or take evasive action.

Carawaystick · 20-01-2017 2:26am

KD345 wrote: »

The RTPI will only show scheduled services, and as these are extras and operate as directed by Dublin Bus central control, they don't display on screens or on apps. For example, it might operate as a 4 today or a 13 or 83 tomorrow so hard to plan.

If the rtpi doesn't show the actual busses running in real time then its a lying piece of crap.
and should be at least renamed, if not redesigned

VG31 · 20-01-2017 10:37am

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the rtpi doesn't show the actual busses running in real time then its a lying piece of crap.
and should be at least renamed, if not redesigned

It does show buses in real-time after they depart. Before they depart it goes by the timetable. Extra buses often don't show though.

KD345 · 21-01-2017 12:58am

Carawaystick wrote: »

If the rtpi doesn't show the actual busses running in real time then its a lying piece of crap.
and should be at least renamed, if not redesigned

The system is as real as it gets. It works off the scheduled timetable and then changes to real time movements once a journey goes live. That's all any system can do. Journeys can be cancelled or adjusted by controllers but conditions throughout the day will affect the real time operations on routes.

To give an example, a bus operating route 123 may be scheduled to leave Marino at 2pm and operate across to Walkinstown to depart at 3pm. Along the way, at 2.30pm, something happens mid journey which delays the bus (protest/accident/problem with passengers/heavy traffic) and the bus is now not expected to arrive at Walkinstown until 3.15pm. The controller needs to make a decision - either to keep this bus running late which will result in it bunching with the the next bus, or remove that bus from service from Walkinstown and have it make up time by operating special to a point on the route where it can return to schedule. If that decision is made then anybody tracking that bus on its return journey may see it disappear from the app. The person will probably call it 'a lying piece of crap' like you suggest but in reality it is simply reflecting real time operations.

Last week I was on a bus which took almost 8 minutes to travel one stop from Pearse Street to College Green. The bus stop on College Green displayed it as 2 minutes away. The app was correct, as the bus was 1 or 2 minutes away, but because of heavy traffic it took a lot longer.

I use the bus daily and I find the app to be reliable most of the time, but from using the bus so often I have come to understand how unpredictable the operating conditions in Dublin can be. You only have to look at the current restrictions with the Luas works, with buses passing through narrow fences to get from Dame Steet to Parnell Square. I have been on buses where heavy loading or incidents with passengers can delay a service. You would also be amazed at how many buses are taken out of service because of broken windows from stone throwing or anti social behaviour. All of these incidents affect the RTPI system.

The app could be improved, I would like to see cancelled departures displayed or any service which is running delayed to be shown in a red colour. These are simple things which could offer a bit more information to passengers.

I think we have to accept the app will never be 100% accurate. By its nature it is real time and will always respond to real time conditions.

dublinman1990 · 21-01-2017 3:24am

Here is a small bit of news that was confirmed some time ago. I heard its not a great bit of news it has to be said from enthusiast circles.

Dublin Bus have ordered 2 new single deck midibuses to replace the WVs in Donnybrook Garage.

The new buses are called Wright Streetlites. (Pic Below)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5552/15323524565_9888ef4618_b.jpg

It appears that they will be only used for the 44B route between Dundrum Luas Station & Glencullen. They won't be used on any other route.

I am not happy about hearing that news because the 2 remaining WVs had only been refurbished a few months ago with new gearboxes, wheels & LEDs.

http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/WV52%20-%20Rt111%20-%20GlenagearyRoadLower%20-%20111116(feat).jpg

dfx- · 21-01-2017 6:57am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Here is a small bit of news that was confirmed some time ago. I heard its not a great bit of news it has to be said from enthusiast circles.

Dublin Bus have ordered 2 new single deck midibuses to replace the WVs in Donnybrook Garage.

The new buses are called Wright Streetlites. (Pic Below)

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5552/15323524565_9888ef4618_b.jpg

It appears that they will be only used for the 44B route between Dundrum Luas Station & Glencullen. They won't be used on any other route.

I am not happy about hearing that news because the 2 remaining WVs had only been refurbished a few months ago with new gearboxes, wheels & LEDs.

http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/WV52%20-%20Rt111%20-%20GlenagearyRoadLower%20-%20111116(feat).jpg

I'd guess they may find their way around Donnybrook's routes as the WVs did when they were still in average-to-poor condition and there was four or five of them left. The WVs did show up on the 59, 63 and the old 111 as well too.

Art(h)ur · 21-01-2017 11:00pm

bk wrote: »

how they can't take the ridiculous amount of fare information DB has to model a flat fare that would be largely revenue neutral.

This does appear to be the core of the issue. I firmly believe that finding a revenue neutral level of the flat fare using existing data is possible. In fact, I would be more than happy to do it myself!

There is also a number of ways in which the risk of a fall in revenue after the introduction of a flat fare can be reduced. E.g. flat premium fare on Xpresso services and on long-distance routes (equal to or slightly below the current "Over 13 stages" fare), like 33 or 65. This could also solve the problem described earlier in this thread of Chapelizod residents filling up Lucan/Leixlip/Maynooth buses.

In terms of flat fare working well elsewhere, even in places like Paris or London buses work on flat fares (zones that everyone recognises from the metro maps do not apply to buses). I presume it's not because they could not come up with anything more optimal but because of its simplicity: both for the operator and for the passenger. Incidentally, London has recently introduced free bus-to-bus transfers within one hour (link), same feature that the paper version of Travel 90 used to have. So we are talking about practices that have been tried and tested in this part of the world, not an experiment or a revolution...

dublinman1990 · 23-01-2017 9:28pm

I have some more info about what is happening this year. I am not sure if this is verified now as it could be speculation off another website.

Dublin Bus are going into a process of having some routes in Ringsend Garage to go under a review & having new timetables.

The routes being mooted for the confirmed/possible changes are the 1, 15, 27, 49, 77a & the 150.

The only bit of info that is confirmed is that the 1 is getting a new proposed timetable drawn up to the NTA. There will be no changes to the route at all. The new timetable for the 1 is to address the 60 minute journey time between the termini in both Santry & Sandymount.

The 15 will be next to get the changes after the 1 gets the new timetable.

bigredone · 26-01-2017 1:01am

The NTA insists the new double door bus is used on certain departures, as we know they have less capacity than the Tri-axel bus.
This results in people left behind as there is no room to carry them. A simple thing to improve DB would be allow the use of Tri-axel on these departures.

Pre NTA when city center was busy and last bus was full, call would go out on radio, "any driver want to do a bit of over time and drive a extra bus on last departure?"
The NTA banned this, so if you cant get the last bus home because it is full dont blame DB, blame the NTA for insisting on the use of center doors bus and a ban on a extra departure not on the time table.

VG31 · 26-01-2017 1:08am

bigredone wrote: »

Pre NTA when city center was busy and last bus was full, call would go out on radio, "any driver want to do a bit of over time and drive a extra bus on last departure?"
The NTA banned this, so if you cant get the last bus home because it is full dont blame DB, blame the NTA for insisting on the use of center doors bus and a ban on a extra departure not on the time table.

That makes no sense.

devnull · 26-01-2017 1:16am

bigredone wrote: »

The NTA insists the new double door bus is used on certain departures, as we know they have less capacity than the Tri-axel bus.

Do you have some verifiable source where I can read this other than on a message board, I'd appreciate it - thanks!

This results in people left behind as there is no room to carry them. A simple thing to improve DB would be allow the use of Tri-axel on these departures.

The problem with tri-axles is there is only so many of them and they are a long bus with one door which leads to chronic dwell time, they are more expensive to operate and normally even when people are downstairs standing and driver turning passengers away there is a ton of seats free down the back upstairs and you couldn't just run a tri-axle for one bus, it would have to be a whole duty, that is before you even take into account the hassle of driving a tri-able around a building site like Dublin City Centre with the Luas works.

Pre NTA when city center was busy and last bus was full, call would go out on radio, "any driver want to do a bit of over time and drive a extra bus on last departure?"
The NTA banned this, so if you cant get the last bus home because it is full dont blame DB, blame the NTA for insisting on the use of center doors bus and a ban on a extra departure not on the time table.

Again can you supply a source for this, I know there has been a push to get double doors on cross city routes, but as far as I was aware there is no ban on any type of PSO vehicle appearing on any PSO route at any one time,

Since you claim there is a ban can you show to me a source which confirms this? Otherwise it looks like typical NTA bashing without any real foundation.

Slutmonkey57b · 26-01-2017 9:23am

Amazing how often "can't be done" seems to boil down to "not being offered overtime rates" from the experts inside the company.

bigredone · 26-01-2017 11:34am

VG31 wrote: »

That makes no sense.

Bus with center doors has less carry capacity than Tri-axel.

thomasj · 26-01-2017 11:40am

NTA has plans for introducing BRT on a number of corridors in the coming years. These vehicles will have 3 sets of doors and have a capacity of 120+

Dyr · 26-01-2017 11:41am

Would be good if the NTA actually started like an ombudsman, or if there was a way for customers to act as quality control by being able to openly view and query KPI performance against what's happening on the ground

Dublin Bus tends to guard their stat's like their the last secret of fatima, drag em into the open where customers can point out discrepancies.

bigredone · 26-01-2017 11:47am

devnull wrote: »

Again can you supply a source for this, I know there has been a push to get double doors on cross city routes, but as far as I was aware there is no ban on any type of PSO vehicle appearing on any PSO route at any one time,

Since you claim there is a ban can you show to me a source which confirms this? Otherwise it looks like typical NTA bashing without any real foundation.

Source?? I am a DB driver, what more do you want, maybe some of the other drivers who post here will come along and either confirm or deny what i have posted.
This has been posted on union message boards, it has been said verbally by inspectors.
Driver,"im leaving people behind need a Tri-axel to carry the loading"
Inspector." I know , NTA wont allow it, must be a center door bus"
The NTA have banned types of buses running on certain routes and certain departures. that is a fact.
You dont like it simply because it does not fit with your view that The NTA are knights in shining armor coming to the rescue of public transport users.

bigredone · 26-01-2017 11:49am

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Amazing how often "can't be done" seems to boil down to "not being offered overtime rates" from the experts inside the company.

This is i would guess from someone who does not travel on DB.
If you or anyone else here do travel on DB you will hear overtime called out on the radio daily by inspectors and you will hear drivers replying that that will do it.

bigredone · 26-01-2017 11:50am

thomasj wrote: »

NTA has plans for introducing BRT on a number of corridors in the coming years. These vehicles will have 3 sets of doors and have a capacity of 120+

This news will be of great comfort to people standing in the rain this weekend when the last bus leaves them at the stop because it has no room

bigredone · 26-01-2017 11:52am

Bambi wrote: »

Would be good if the NTA actually started like an ombudsman, or if there was a way for customers to act as quality control by being able to openly view and query KPI performance against what's happening on the ground

Dublin Bus tends to guard their stat's like their the last secret of fatima, drag em into the open where customers can point out discrepancies.

Simple thing to do , get on to them and ask why they wont let the last bus running be a Tri-axel and why wont they allow DB to put on a extra last bus when nights are busy?

bigredone · 26-01-2017 12:02pm

I see one who tanked devnull is Brayhead.
i guess you are from bray?
The 145 is one of several routes that is often full on last departure and has to leave people behind.
Many a night it is full by Nassau street and cant carry anymore.
So if you are standing in the cold rain and a bus passes you by full, know that this is the fault of the NTA.
Pre-NTA a driver would be on a busy route and on the last bus, the control inspector would call him. "let me know if it gets busy"
Driver would see the bus filling up and know he would be leaving people behind so call control. "the bus is full"
The inspector would then get on the radio. " little bit of OT, anyone finished in town, need a driver to do a journey on the ABC out of town"
A driver would call back. "yea i'll do it"
Problem sorted a extra bus running no one left behind.
The NTA banned this extra bus from running.

hytrogen · 26-01-2017 12:04pm

A bus "not in service" or a bus "entering service" is a bus not making money

bigredone · 26-01-2017 12:08pm

hytrogen wrote: »

A bus "not in service" or a bus "entering service" is a bus not making money

Here is something that will blow your mind.
A bus running in service but will very few passengers is a bus that in loosing money.

Dyr · 26-01-2017 12:10pm

bigredone wrote: »

Simple thing to do , get on to them and ask why they wont let the last bus running be a Tri-axel and why wont they allow DB to put on a extra last bus when nights are busy?

A more simple thing would be to get onto them and ask why the number 1 disappeared off RTPI yday when there was also a 1c right behind it..and a number 4 then wandered up with no mention of it on RTPI. But TFI are not set up for those kind of queries from the public and you might as well be talking to the wall as ask DB

a better solution would be to have transport providers have to publicly provide their running stats in real time and allow the public to query discrepancies with an ombudsman. You might see some changes then when the actual state of play is revealed through the dread spectre of accountability.

devnull · 26-01-2017 12:26pm

bigredone wrote: »

Source?? I am a DB driver, what more do you want, maybe some of the other drivers who post here will come along and either confirm or deny what i have posted.
This has been posted on union message boards, it has been said verbally by inspectors.
Driver,"im leaving people behind need a Tri-axel to carry the loading"
Inspector." I know , NTA wont allow it, must be a center door bus"
The NTA have banned types of buses running on certain routes and certain departures. that is a fact.
You dont like it simply because it does not fit with your view that The NTA are knights in shining armor coming to the rescue of public transport users.

Thanks for confirming it's a claim with nothing to back it up. By source I mean referencing a third party or a document or site in the public domain that backs it up. Anyone on here can say someone said something doesn't mean they did.

Anyone can post anything on boards doesn't mean it's true. We cannot verify anyone is who they say they are all we can do is ask them to reference their sources and like pretty much every NTA rant you ever came out with you are unable to back up.

devnull · 26-01-2017 12:29pm

bigredone wrote: »

Simple thing to do , get on to them and ask why they wont let the last bus running be a Tri-axel and why wont they allow DB to put on a extra last bus when nights are busy?

You made the claim. It's for you to back up. Not for other people to prove you wrong. That's not how it works in Ireland.

If you make an allegation you have to prove it. That is the kind of society we live in.

How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017

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