M50 Congestion

amcalester · 30-06-2019 11:06am

InTheShadows wrote: »

I hear this a lot but tbh it's complete and utter tripe. Irish drivers are some of the best in the world. Iv'e driven coach's and HGV's all around Europe and beyond as well as riding my motorbike in South America, Africa, Russia, Asia and the US and it's terrifying to see how bad driving is in some of these places. Yeah there are some dickwads on the roads here but the vast majority are competent.

Just because others are worse, it doesn’t automatically follow that we are good.

It only takes 1 dickhead changing lanes dangerously to cause a braking concertina effect that affects 100’s of motorists.

magicbastarder · 30-06-2019 11:08am

the M50 is way over capacity, and as such becomes extremely sensitive to shocks.
yes, bad driving is an issue, but it's the overload which amplifies that effect.

Guy:Incognito · 30-06-2019 11:14am

InTheShadows wrote: »

It's the same everywhere tbh. Try Naples A56 if you want to see bad driving as one example. Makes the m50 drivers look like driving miss Daisy.
I just get the feeling people who moan constantly about the M50 just don't seem to realise it's way past capacity and that's the issue here. If you don't want to be stuck in traffic find another way to travel besides a car. It's simple logic.

Plenty of the issues persist when the traffic isnt overly heavy. Passing junctions and the whole lot drops to 60kmh then back up after . This is purely down to bad driving.

Leaving the m50 southboumd at the red cow , as you pass over the nangor road in the slip , every single time, the traffic brakes. ****ing idiots.

is_that_so · 30-06-2019 11:15am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the M50 is way over capacity, and as such becomes extremely sensitive to shocks.
yes, bad driving is an issue, but it's the overload which amplifies that effect.

Not along its full length. There are a huge number of rat runners on it too - people who just go 1-2 junctions and then block up those junctions exiting. Traffic management plan coming which should help a little bit.

https://extra.ie/2018/10/17/news/irish-news/m50-traffic-congestion-plan

markpb · 30-06-2019 4:37pm

is_that_so wrote: »

So how can one get fewer people to use cars via the M50 and other routes given the generally poor alternatives?

Between 2008 and 2012, we spent a billion euro removing the toll booths and adding an extra lane to the M50. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that this would improve matters, no one has ever solved congestion on an urban motorway by adding more capacity. If we had spent that money on public transport instead, people would have far more options.

First Up · 30-06-2019 4:57pm

markpb wrote:

Between 2008 and 2012, we spent a billion euro removing the toll booths and adding an extra lane to the M50. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that this would improve matters, no one has ever solved congestion on an urban motorway by adding more capacity. If we had spent that money on public transport instead, people would have far more options.

I think the problem is that most of us use the M50 as part of a journey to somewhere else and those "somewhere elses" are very scattered. Public transport on the M50 wouldn't solve anything; you would have to provide "door to door" public transport solutions covering a very wide area.

markpb · 30-06-2019 6:01pm

First Up wrote: »

I think the problem is that most of us use the M50 as part of a journey to somewhere else and those "somewhere elses" are very scattered. Public transport on the M50 wouldn't solve anything; you would have to provide "door to door" public transport solutions covering a very wide area.

I've a feeling the bulk of the trips on the M50 are actually from suburban residential estates to suburban business parks. The next group are probably from towns near Dublin (Newbridge, Balbriggan, Drogheda) to suburban business parks. Both those groups could easily be served by feeder buses and enhanced rail lines which would leave the M50 for people who can't feasibility be served by public transport. This is how normal cities deal with transport, Dublin is no different.

rabbidpeach · 01-07-2019 9:56am

markpb wrote: »

I've a feeling the bulk of the trips on the M50 are actually from suburban residential estates to suburban business parks. The next group are probably from towns near Dublin (Newbridge, Balbriggan, Drogheda) to suburban business parks. Both those groups could easily be served by feeder buses and enhanced rail lines which would leave the M50 for people who can't feasibility be served by public transport. This is how normal cities deal with transport, Dublin is no different.

As someone who lives in Drogheda, I'd agree with you there. What would work for me would be a more frequent (and reliable) bus service from Drogheda to Dublin Airport and a bus service from the airport down the Ballymun Road. I don't know how plausible it would be to extend the 4 to the airport but that would work. MetroLink would have been ideal for the local connection in Dublin but I can't wait that long!

I'm sure you could say "well the bus network isn't designed to suit you" but I can't be the only person looking for an airport link to/from Ballymun.

is_that_so · 01-07-2019 10:08am

markpb wrote: »

Between 2008 and 2012, we spent a billion euro removing the toll booths and adding an extra lane to the M50. There was no doubt in anyone's mind that this would improve matters, no one has ever solved congestion on an urban motorway by adding more capacity. If we had spent that money on public transport instead, people would have far more options.

It might have helped a bit but as always the answers are more complicated. Planning or lack thereof has turned Dublin into a huge sprawl with a fairly low overall population, which public transport will always struggle to cover.

Even the M50 itself was a very solid idea, i.e linking all the major roads to Dublin to a single conduit, except it became a prime spot to build any amount of industrial or business space and shopping outlets.

What we needed and still need is a true regionalisation approach, not the McCreevy political cut and paste nonsense but one that can have good strong hubs to attract both companies and potential employees to view other past of the country as a good option.

First Up · 01-07-2019 10:12am

There's two issues here; (1) why does someone take their car instead of public transport and (2) if they take their car, why do they use the M50.

The answer to (1) is obviously that public transport doesn't meet their needs. The answer to (2) is less obvious but taking an hour to travel two junctions would greatly increase my disposition towards alternatives.

magicbastarder · 01-07-2019 10:22am

my pet 'what they should have done with the M50' idea, is that they should have put bike lanes along the top of the embankments.
dealing with junctions would have been fun, but being able to cycle from finglas to parkwest, for example, without much interaction with traffic would have been attractive to people. though the noise might be a little offputting.

Hurrache · 01-07-2019 10:32am

sharper wrote: »

Create better alternatives. Bus Connects planned to greatly increase orbital connections but a lot of people with a large front garden and two cars parked in it suddenly became very worried about trees.

You know this is nonsense, it's right down there with dismissing people's concerns as simply NIMBYism.

magicbastarder · 01-07-2019 10:48am

well, in this case it'd be NIMFYism, i guess...

markpb · 01-07-2019 1:49pm

is_that_so wrote: »

It might have helped a bit but as always the answers are more complicated. Planning or lack thereof has turned Dublin into a huge sprawl with a fairly low overall population, which public transport will always struggle to cover.

That's a myth. Dublin does not have a low population density. The city centre is higher than other, similarly sized European cities. The urban Dublin area has a reasonable population density. The lack of public transport is entirely down to politics and our preference to spend money on roads instead of public transport.

Dublin urban region: 4,588 people per square kilometer
Amsterdam: 4,908 people per square kilometer
Helsinki: 3,034.62 per square kilometer
Colgne: 2,700 per square kilometer
http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/

First Up · 01-07-2019 2:46pm

markpb wrote:

That's a myth. Dublin does not have a low population density. The city centre is higher than other, similarly sized European cities.

The cars clogging up the M50 are not driven by people living in the city centre.

markpb · 01-07-2019 3:17pm

First Up wrote: »

The cars clogging up the M50 are not driven by people living in the city centre.

Those populations are for the Dublin region, not the city centre.

First Up · 01-07-2019 3:23pm

markpb wrote:

Those populations are for the Dublin region, not the city centre.

You mentioned city centre.

is_that_so · 01-07-2019 3:30pm

markpb wrote: »

That's a myth. Dublin does not have a low population density. The city centre is higher than other, similarly sized European cities. The urban Dublin area has a reasonable population density. The lack of public transport is entirely down to politics and our preference to spend money on roads instead of public transport.

Dublin urban region: 4,588 people per square kilometer
Amsterdam: 4,908 people per square kilometer
Helsinki: 3,034.62 per square kilometer
Colgne: 2,700 per square kilometer
http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/

Who's talking about the city centre? That link does say in the city proper. Most people in Dublin don't live there or anywhere near it. Any that do are unlikely to be clogging up the M50. Those stats don't include the people who can't afford to live in inner urban Dublin and commute from a lot further afield.

Take even a few random areas in the Dublin region. Balbriggan and Swords with about 60K between them do not have acceptable public services. Even in somewhere like Lucan it depends where you live. That's not a "roads" problem that's crap to no planning. Then when you push out a little further to Drogheda in the north, Leixlip, Celbridge and Kildare in the west and Arklow down south the problem magnifies enormously simply because too many people are going in the same direction.

markpb · 01-07-2019 3:41pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Who's talking about the city centre? That link does say in the city proper. Most people in Dublin don't live there or anywhere near it. Any that do are unlikely to be clogging up the M50. Those stats don't include the people who can't afford to live in inner urban Dublin and commute from a lot further afield.

Take even a few random areas in the Dublin region. Balbriggan and Swords with about 60K between them do not have acceptable public services. Even in somewhere like Lucan it depends where you live. That's not a "roads" problem that's crap to no planning. Then when you push out a little further to Drogheda in the north, Leixlip, Celbridge and Kildare in the west and Arklow down south the problem magnifies enormously simply because too many people are going in the same direction.

Literally all the places you mentioned have rail lines (or, in the case of Swords, one being planned). With the billion that was needlessly spent on the M50 widening and the money now being needlessly spent on the N7 widening, that money could have been spent on improving those rail links and giving people options. Instead, we laid more tarmac and hoped that the inevitable wouldn't happen. There will always be people who can't avail of public transport. For those people, roads are ideal. Unfortunately, we attempt the impossible and keep trying to solve everyone's problem with roads.

is_that_so · 01-07-2019 3:49pm

markpb wrote: »

Literally all the places you mentioned have rail lines (or, in the case of Swords, one being planned). With the billion that was needlessly spent on the M50 widening and the money now being needlessly spent on the N7 widening, that money could have been spent on improving those rail links and giving people options. Instead, we laid more tarmac and hoped that the inevitable wouldn't happen. There will always be people who can't avail of public transport. For those people, roads are ideal. Unfortunately, we attempt the impossible and keep trying to solve everyone's problem with roads.

M7 widening is essential and should have been spent initially. Taking money away from the M50 would really not have solved the transport issues as a whole lot of that was the sheer impossibility of traversing Dublin in any form of public transport. As for rail it's very expensive to use, costly to maintain and this is where that density question emerges. Frequency of service is the biggest problem for many of those places not on the DART, along with excessive travelling times from the outer suburbs.

markpb · 01-07-2019 4:09pm

is_that_so wrote: »

M7 widening is essential and should have been spent initially. Taking money away from the M50 would really not have solved the transport issues as a whole lot of that was the sheer impossibility of traversing Dublin in any form of public transport. As for rail it's very expensive to use, costly to maintain and this is where that density question emerges. Frequency of service is the biggest problem for many of those places not on the DART, along with excessive travelling times from the outer suburbs.

That's a great list of excuses. So,what's your plan, another billion or two widening the M50 again? Blame the bad drivers and pretend that's a problem that can be fixed?

First Up · 01-07-2019 4:30pm

markpb wrote:

That's a great list of excuses. So,what's your plan, another billion or two widening the M50 again? Blame the bad drivers and pretend that's a problem that can be fixed?

It would be helpful to reduce peak time dependence on (or preference for) the M50 and there may be ways to do that without spending billions.

It would also be helpful if people knew how to drive on it properly and a bit of education and enforcement wouldn't cost billions either.

Dravokivich · 01-07-2019 7:49pm

markpb wrote: »

That's a great list of excuses. So,what's your plan, another billion or two widening the M50 again? Blame the bad drivers and pretend that's a problem that can be fixed?

The m50 can't and shouldn't be widened again. It's a just that it's the only real way of getting around Dublin. We shouldn't be surprised if it struggles at times.

markpb · 01-07-2019 8:41pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

The m50 can't and shouldn't be widened again. It's a just that it's the only real way of getting around Dublin. We shouldn't be surprised if it struggles at times.

The second part needs some context. The M50 at peak carries 149k vehicles. That's about 1.5 times what the Luas carries and only a fraction of what Dublin Bus carry each day. It's far from the only way to get around.

antodeco · 01-07-2019 9:14pm

They should just build another motorway on top of the M50 (like the golden gate bridge), except it only goes to every 3rd exit or something

Eric Cartman · 01-07-2019 9:20pm

antodeco wrote: »

They should just build another motorway on top of the M50 (like the golden gate bridge), except it only goes to every 3rd exit or something

another road joining the n11 and n7 and one joining the m1 and n7 seperate to the m50 would help infinitely, particularly on fridays.

blackwhite · 04-07-2019 5:05pm

Variable speed limits, coupled with enforcement, would go a long way to improving flow at peak times.

Approx. once per month I travel the M7 from the M9 merge to the Ball at Naas on a Monday around 7.30am.

The journey tended to take less time when the 60 limit was being enforced than it did with a 120kph limit and no roadworks!

Much less chance of "concertina" tailbacks occuring when speeds are lower.

Dymanic speed limit management would certainly help the M50

Markcheese · 04-07-2019 11:27pm

A decent public transport system,including a m50 orbital bus / Brt, with hard shoulder running where possible, and protected stops under each bridge, and bus /train interchange, park and rides as close as possible to the motorway bridge, and encourage large employers and industrial estates to provide shuttles to interchanges...

First Up · 05-07-2019 7:31am

Markcheese wrote:

A decent public transport system,including a m50 orbital bus / Brt, with hard shoulder running where possible, and protected stops under each bridge, and bus /train interchange, park and rides as close as possible to the motorway bridge, and encourage large employers and industrial estates to provide shuttles to interchanges...

That would all help and there's already a number of shuttle services in operation Microsoft have their own and another does a shuttle from the DART to Sandyford.

I'd happy to see investment going into such infrastructure and incentives/subsidies for bus operators. But the infrastructure has to provide door to door solutions.

The M50 is a vital part of our transport network. We can't allow it choke to death.

Markcheese · 05-07-2019 9:22pm

First Up wrote: »

That would all help and there's already a number of shuttle services in operation Microsoft have their own and another does a shuttle from the DART to Sandyford.

I'd happy to see investment going into such infrastructure and incentives/subsidies for bus operators. But the infrastructure has to provide door to door solutions.
The M50 is a vital part of our transport network. We can't allow it choke to death.

The M50 is vital, its become the hub for everything in the country... And its stuffed...
And always will be...
The more capacity that's added to the M50 the more it'll fill up with commuters
And unfortunately that's not just a Dublin commuter problem it's a national economy problem... (think seat of government, main city, Dublin Port and dublin Airport.. All of which because of our spoke and hub road network are our national ports...
So rather than trying to spend mega billions on either a double decker M50, or an outer ring road, which will give us a second problem road in a few years, maybe an m50 public transport option, either a metro west (cos we're doing great with metro North) or an really good(but not cheap either) Brt on the M 50.

SeanW · 07-07-2019 3:14pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Just because the car is the best mode for certain individuals given their particular circumstances, that doesn't change the fact that public transport is a far more efficient way of moving large number of people. Every time this fact is stated on here, we have people falling over themselves to tell us why they need their car despite it having no relevance to anything. We need more public transport, even if it is not usable for some people they will still benefit from it through less other drivers.

Both things can be true simultaneously.

People may need to drive for legitimate reasons to get where they are going, and it's also true that public transport can be used for journeys that are suitable to mass transit. For example, people trying to get from suburbs into a city centre, or around an inner city.

It's a question of the right tool for the right job. Cities need more public transport, ASAP, but regional travel requires roads.

hmmm · 07-07-2019 3:32pm

If there's any tolling of other areas of the M50, it needs to be accompanied by traffic slowdown measures on alternative routes - or our suburbs are going to be choked with traffic avoiding the M50.

For me, this all comes back to density inside the M50 - we're building lots of housing outside the M50, particularly in West Dublin, and a lot of these people are going to drive. There's only so much we can afford to as regards public transport. We need to stop the sprawl and build up in the city centre proper.

First Up · 24-10-2019 8:21am

I'm revisiting this as I've had to use the M50 on a number of evenings recently - heading northbound for a few exits from Sandyford/Dundrum towards the N4 and N3.

Every journey has taken well over an hour and while heavy volumee will slow things, in every instance the delay was caused by an accident blocking one (and sometimes two) lanes.

Statistically, motorways are supposed to be the safest part of the road network. Two or three lanes in the same direction, well marked exits and slip roads on and off. Yet we have accidents every day and the cause can only be bad driving.

This is choking the city to death; will we ever see proper education and enforcement? As it stands, proper motorway behaviour seems to be beyond the capability of many Irish drivers.

magicbastarder · 24-10-2019 8:30am

First Up wrote: »

This is choking the city to death; will we ever see proper education and enforcement? As it stands, proper motorway behaviour seems to be beyond the capability of many Irish drivers.

the primary issue is the M50 is way overloaded.

First Up · 24-10-2019 9:16am

magicbastarder wrote:

the primary issue is the M50 is way overloaded.

The volume slows it down but it doesn't cause accidents. Bad driving does.

sharper · 24-10-2019 9:20am

First Up wrote: »

The volume slows it down but it doesn't cause accidents. Bad driving does.

Accidents definitely don't help and there are absolutely too many of them which also take too long to clear up.

If you follow any of the main twitter accounts that report on current traffic over the last couple of years it's become much much more common for them to report extremely heavy and slow traffic with no incidents e.g.

https://twitter.com/aaroadwatch/status/1174737010139049984

First Up · 24-10-2019 9:26am

We can't do much about the heavy traffic, at least in the short term. We can improve driver behaviour. I used the M50 northbound in the evening 4 times in the last two weeks, one journey took about 45-50 minutes due to volume. The other three journeys took 75-90 minutes due to accidents.

veryangryman · 24-10-2019 11:43am

First Up wrote: »

We can't do much about the heavy traffic, at least in the short term. We can improve driver behaviour. I used the M50 northbound in the evening 4 times in the last two weeks, one journey took about 45-50 minutes due to volume. The other three journeys took 75-90 minutes due to accidents.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COsttGQ6IJU

ifElseThen · 24-10-2019 11:55am

Any red cow incidents, it all bottlenecks through Junction 10 alongside the Luas. This is a 1 lane road so ideally they could turn that into 2 lanes.
Bottlenecks at the turn-in to the Kingswood estate. Couple of houses there at that junction though, look like they couldn't afford to lose any back garden.

First Up · 24-10-2019 12:51pm

I know about the bottlenecks, congestion etc. But if the numpties causing the accidents every bloody day knew how to use (and pay attention on) a motorway, we would all get around quicker and without spending any money.

I think it merits a massive publicity and enforcement campaign but the RSA seem half-hearted about it and the gardai aren't interested.

mugsymugsy · 24-10-2019 6:52pm

First time driving on m50 in a while. Left dundrum at 4 and it took about 45 mins to blanch exit.

Combination of idiots lane changing to get one car ahead and people using the slip ways for late re entry. Rain probably didn't help.

Glad I no longer use it on a regular basis.

Markcheese · 24-10-2019 7:03pm

Honestly there's relatively little to be done, without trying to bring in some form of effective public transport...
Any improvement made without extra public transport is going to just put more cars on the m50...

AlekSmart · 24-10-2019 7:45pm

ifElseThen wrote: »

Any red cow incidents, it all bottlenecks through Junction 10 alongside the Luas. This is a 1 lane road so ideally they could turn that into 2 lanes.
Bottlenecks at the turn-in to the Kingswood estate. Couple of houses there at that junction though, look like they couldn't afford to lose any back garden.

Bothár Catherine Tynan is not "just" a 1-lane road...but,it appears that the professional roads engineers,planners and administrative elite were largely ignorant of the fact that the road in question links two of the historically busiest Industrial Estates in Leinster (Ballymount & Cookstown) with the State's Motorway Network as well as allowing access to the greater Tallaght region.
Add to this,a further dollop of lunacy,in the reduction of the Belgard Road from a Dual Carriageway to a single lane as it meets the N81,and you begin to suspect that Irish Universities and Administrative centres have been subject to Alien Intervention.

With the current grá for returning us all to the Pony & Trap and High-Nellie,it is probably how the future will pan out,as attempting to pass through Tallaght at even off-peak times can be a revelation....

Idbatterim · 24-10-2019 7:55pm

Better off building the eastern bypass! Large amount of traffic would then be taking a far shorter route to the airport or north of it ... or heading southwards , going to ucd, Sandyford, Leopardstown , carrickmines , Dundrum etc.
Transport here is just appalling. Ah hour from rathcoole to the City Centre , you get a tour of west Dublin first and they wonder why the place is gridlocked !

So much is routed through the City Centre and the roads can’t take it ... I get that you build more roads. You get more traffic. But the planners here for a large part, have build a very car dependent city. We can’t even get DU or The metro built for god sake !

The population of Dublin must be increasing by what? 30-40,000 a year ?

I just wonder is it more practical and beneficial to build eastern bypass , than metro west.... du and Dublin metro are no brainers ...

magicbastarder · 24-10-2019 8:52pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I just wonder is it more practical and beneficial to build eastern bypass , than metro west.... du and Dublin metro are no brainers ...

a stat i'm fond of repeating. if you were to take a three lane road and apply a three second rule to it (which i know motorists in general ignore, which is what leads to the crashes on the m50), the road can carry one vehicle per second, or 3,600 vehicles per hour. if they were all cars, and you apply the 1.2 occupants rule, that's 4,320 people per hour (in one direction) on a three lane road/motorway.
a luas green line tram has a capacity of 358, and if you have a tram once every three minutes, a max capacity of 7,160.
so a light rail system has one and a half times the safe carrying capacity of a three lane motorway, unless you can convince more people to car pool.

in short, it should be rail we're building, not roads.

Carawaystick · 24-10-2019 10:32pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Bothár Catherine Tynan is not "just" a 1-lane road...but,it appears that the professional roads engineers,planners and administrative elite were largely ignorant of the fact that the road in question links two of the historically busiest Industrial Estates in Leinster (Ballymount & Cookstown) with the State's Motorway Network as well as allowing access to the greater Tallaght region.

Theres also the luas which runs the width of a road away from TV3, but has no stop there, so loads of people working in Ballymount who could get a tram, drive instead.

AlekSmart · 25-10-2019 6:08am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Theres also the luas which runs the width of a road away from TV3, but has no stop there, so loads of people working in Ballymount who could get a tram, drive instead.

It's almost as if the designers of LUAS were not public transport users themselves........surely not ? :rolleyes:

Kermit.de.frog · 25-10-2019 6:40am

The M50 urgently needs an extra 3 lanes each way and new flyovers to resolve the problem.

The sooner the better. There is enough room for an extra 2 lanes each way within existing footprint.

The problem with the M50 is fundamentally it is too small scale. Needs to be far wider with much bigger, well designed, flyovers.

u140acro3xs7dm · 25-10-2019 7:29am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The M50 urgently needs an extra 3 lanes each way and new flyovers to resolve the problem.

The sooner the better. There is enough room for an extra 2 lanes each way within existing footprint.

The problem with the M50 is fundamentally it is too small scale. Needs to be far wider with much bigger, well designed, flyovers.

I much prefer driving to getting puiblic transport, but the last thing it needs is more lanes. That space should be turned into a bus connect lane or a train line. The problem with doing either one of them is the bus or train needs to stop safely somewhere at every junction, and there needs to be another mode of reliable public transport to take people away - no point in leaving them stranded along side the M50 as a lot of the jobs off the M50 are a good walk away. There also needs to be free park and rides, West Dublin is urban sprawl, if someone has to walk 30 mins to get a train or bus in Carrickmines, then walk another 20 mins at the other end, it won't work, not with our climate. There is no point cutting out cars altogether, use them to drive to public transport. You this all over the continent, huge multi-story car parks beside busy transport hubs, all free.

magicbastarder · 25-10-2019 8:46am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The M50 urgently needs an extra 3 lanes each way and new flyovers to resolve the problem.

The sooner the better. There is enough room for an extra 2 lanes each way within existing footprint.

this would be an astounding, awe inspiring, criminal waste of billions.
have you heard of induced demand?

M50 Congestion

Comments