Passed speed camera and pulled by Gardai

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 1:24pm #1

Long story warning!

Today I was driving along a dual carriageway in a 100km/h zone doing about 120km/h. As I was overtaking in the right lane I noticed a gosafe van and slowed down significantly, but im still not sure if it caught me or not.
Just as I had done this, I noticed a Garda car with blue lights in coming up behind me at speed to pull me over. The Garda gave me 3 points and an €80 fine for speeding understandably.

My question is, what do I do if I now also get a fine for being caught by the gosafe van? I know it’s my own fault for speeding in the first place, but I can hardly be done twice for the one speeding offense? I was literally pulled over by the Garda not even 200 meters from the van.

Thanks in advance guys!

XsApollo · 18-04-2019 1:31pm

200 meters after the van or before the van.
Go safe van doesn’t detect 200 meters down the road as far as I know.
2 and a half times the width of the road is the distance it detects.
So you basically have to be on top of them to get caught by them.

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 2:45pm

XsApollo wrote: »

200 meters after the van or before the van.
Go safe van doesn’t detect 200 meters down the road as far as I know.
2 and a half times the width of the road is the distance it detects.
So you basically have to be on top of them to get caught by them.

Sorry, what I mean is I braked about 50 meters before the van, and immediately after that I saw the gardai behind me with blues on. It was 200 meters down the road that I was pulled into the hard shoulder speaking with the Garda.

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 5:54pm

Anybody able to help me here?

jasper100 · 18-04-2019 6:06pm

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Anybody able to help me here?

Wait until you get the fine and worry about it then.

Presumably you would have to go to court and argue your case and the judge may agree that you only pay the fine once.

rgodard80a · 18-04-2019 6:09pm

XsApollo wrote: »

2 and a half times the width of the road is the distance it detects.
So you basically have to be on top of them to get caught by them.

That sounds like BS.

If you're going to outfit a custom built speed detection van, I'd fully expect it to nail you with the best long range laser detection system.

If you get double charged, then I'm sure you've definitely a right to challenge ONE of those offenses. But don't expect to get off both of them.

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 6:16pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

That sounds like BS.

If you're going to outfit a custom built speed detection van, I'd fully expect it to nail you with the best long range laser detection system.

If you get double charged, then I'm sure you've definitely a right to challenge ONE of those offenses. But don't expect to get off both of them.

Of course i have absolutely no problem paying the fine and taking the points for one of them, but I just don’t think it’s fair to be charged twice for the one offense.

Twenty Grand · 18-04-2019 6:18pm

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Of course i have absolutely no problem paying the fine and taking the points for one of them, but I just don’t think it’s fair to be charged twice for the one offense.

Suppose it depends how you define the one offence.

Let's say the gosafe van was 3km before the garda, and both caught you speeding.

Is that one offence or two offences?

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 6:27pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Suppose it depends how you define the one offence.

Let's say the gosafe van was 3km before the garda, and both caught you speeding.

Is that one offence or two offences?

I know where you’re coming from. It was nowhere near 3km in my case though.
To give a bit of perspective, when I passed the gosafe van I had just began to slow down as I noticed the Garda car in my mirror, but did not immediately realise he was coming after me.

goldenhoarde · 18-04-2019 6:58pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

That sounds like BS.

If you're going to outfit a custom built speed detection van, I'd fully expect it to nail you with the best long range laser detection system.

If you get double charged, then I'm sure you've definitely a right to challenge ONE of those offenses. But don't expect to get off both of them.

Anywhere but Ireland and I'd agree ðŸ€£ðŸ€£ðŸ€£

Rubberchikken · 18-04-2019 7:01pm

i think it would be perfectly fair to charge you twice.
you're driving in a 100k zone and you choose to drive at 120.
tough.

Spook_ie · 18-04-2019 7:04pm

I think the real answer will lie in what speeds you are charged with, if the Garda clocked you in excess of the 120 and then the Speed van clocked you at 110/115 in the 100 zone you might not have as much wriggle room as you'd like. Also would likely depend on if you were clocked in two different speed zones say 80 and 100

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 7:05pm

Rubberchikken wrote: »

i think it would be perfectly fair to charge you twice.
you're driving in a 100k zone and you choose to drive at 120.
tough.

Explain how it’s perfectly fair?
Yes I broke the law, hardly crime of the century though.
It’s hardly fair to get 6 penalty points for that.

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 7:06pm

Spook_ie wrote: »

I think the real answer will lie in what speeds you are charged with, if the Garda clocked you in excess of the 120 and then the Speed van clocked you at 110/115 in the 100 zone you might not have as much wriggle room as you'd like. Also would likely depend on if you were clocked in two different speed zones say 80 and 100

I get you, was definitely the same speed limit though, only down the road from each other on a dual carriageway.

SVI40 · 18-04-2019 7:21pm

XsApollo wrote: »

200 meters after the van or before the van.
Go safe van doesn’t detect 200 meters down the road as far as I know.
2 and a half times the width of the road is the distance it detects.
So you basically have to be on top of them to get caught by them.

According to a pal in the Roads Policing, they have a range of 1Km. Naturally, it will depend on traffic and how close cars are to each other, but on an empty road, 1Km.

Irishphotodesk · 18-04-2019 7:30pm

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Explain how it’s perfectly fair?
Yes I broke the law, hardly crime of the century though.
It’s hardly fair to get 6 penalty points for that.

Crime of the century it may not be but technically it is correct.

Both the Garda and go safe van potentially caught you speeding at different points along the road, the Garda possibly clocked you maybe a kilometer or more before the go safe van possibly caught you (it just took time for Garda to catch up to you).

Did the Garda show you the speedgun with the speed on it ? Or did he/she just tell you they saw you speeding ?

Unfortunately if you were caught twice you have to accept the 6points or risk it increasing to 8points if you try to challenge one of them and fail, if successful however, it would be only 3points.

Unfortunately for you we don’t have fairness in our courts system, we have courts of law, not courts of justice.

What Username Guidelines · 18-04-2019 7:34pm

I wouldn’t recommend it as it would sound quite cheeky, but wonder what the garda would say if you suggested that if you were actually speeding, then the van would have clocked you

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 7:38pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Crime of the century it may not be but technically it is correct.

Both the Garda and go safe van potentially caught you speeding at different points along the road, the Garda possibly clocked you maybe a kilometer or more before the go safe van possibly caught you (it just took time for Garda to catch up to you).

Did the Garda show you the speedgun with the speed on it ? Or did he/she just tell you they saw you speeding ?

Unfortunately if you were caught twice you have to accept the 6points or risk it increasing to 8points if you try to challenge one of them and fail, if successful however, it would be only 3points.

Unfortunately for you we don’t have fairness in our courts system, we have courts of law, not courts of justice.

He never showed me the gun I’m afraid.

My thinking would be if I went to court, and say I was clocked by the Garda at 10:31 and also clocked by the van at 10:31, it might show that it was the same speeding offense.

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 7:39pm

What Username Guidelines wrote: »

I wouldn’t recommend it as it would sound quite cheeky, but wonder what the garda would say if you suggested that if you were actually speeding, then the van would have clocked you

Wouldn’t fancy trying that anyway!

Lmklad · 18-04-2019 7:44pm

Wait till the tickets arrive. Send a photocopy of the tickets to the fines office in Thurles, you can ask that one be appealed. Better then waiting to go to court.

Irishphotodesk · 18-04-2019 7:49pm

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

He never showed me the gun I’m afraid.

My thinking would be if I went to court, and say I was clocked by the Garda at 10:31 and also clocked by the van at 10:31, it might show that it was the same speeding offense.

If he didn’t show you the handheld radar, he has no physical proof you were speeding ...risky to challenge this as it’s essentially your word against a Garda if you go to court and chances are you probably admitted speeding after he pulled you in (in a you versus Garda situation in court you more than likely would loose, but could be successful on appeal...road traffic appeals are more lenient than district court judges dealing with road traffic offenses.)

If the go safe van did clock you, it’s possible you will have to suck up the 6points (each caught you speeding at different places)

Sleeper12 · 18-04-2019 7:58pm

BuzzMcdonnell wrote:

Sorry, what I mean is I braked about 50 meters before the van, and immediately after that I saw the gardai behind me with blues on. It was 200 meters down the road that I was pulled into the hard shoulder speaking with the Garda.

The Gardai clocked you a half mile/mile or more before the speed van. The fact that you were stopped 200 meters from the van doesn't mean that you were clocked 200 metres from the van

XsApollo · 18-04-2019 9:40pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

That sounds like BS.

If you're going to outfit a custom built speed detection van, I'd fully expect it to nail you with the best long range laser detection system.

If you get double charged, then I'm sure you've definitely a right to challenge ONE of those offenses. But don't expect to get off both of them.

It’s written somewhere on their site , I’ll dig it out.
I didn’t make it up and I’m nearly sure I read it somewhere official.

EDIT: I dunno know if they have a site , i remember reading it tho. :-D

EDIT 2 : can’t find anything on that.
And I’m going to sleep. Maybe I dreamt it.

Alkers · 18-04-2019 11:02pm

It's worth pursuing imo, if you're caught for multiple offences, you can be fined for each but you only get the points for the offence which carries the most points.

Effects · 18-04-2019 11:13pm

rgodard80a wrote: »

That sounds like BS.
If you're going to outfit a custom built speed detection van, I'd fully expect it to nail you with the best long range laser detection system.

They catch an average of one car an hour. I'd imagine they have a certain smallish area that they can catch you within and that's it. I know a lot of people who were speeding, thought they were going to get a fine after spotting the van, then received nothing in the post.

BuzzMcdonnell · 18-04-2019 11:43pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

It's worth pursuing imo, if you're caught for multiple offences, you can be fined for each but you only get the points for the offence which carries the most points.

I think the best bet is to wait until I get the fines and arrange a meeting with a solicitor who specializes in road traffic law.

Muppet Man · 19-04-2019 12:10am

Slightly off topic... Wasn’t there a case brought to court a while back where someone out by the airport M1 junction was clocked speeding by a go safe 5 days in a row (or something like that) and effectively lost his license? IIRC he challenged it in court and said he didn’t see the go safe nor the speed limit and since he hadn’t received a fine in the post (yet) said he didn’t know he was being fined (and would have slowed down if he did) . I think the judge was lenient on him and was allowed to keep his license.

Credit Checker Moose · 19-04-2019 2:29pm

Look up continuous offences. I won't be engaging in AH moralising.

Cordell · 19-04-2019 2:42pm

Not trying to moralize the OP, just asking genuinely: I usually drive with the cruise control set at 125, which will put me at around legal limit in real speed. Let's say there are 2 speed vans 50kms away (in different counties), and it's a quiet very early morning with no traffic so it's safe to assume that my speed will stay constant. Let's say I forget where I am and set the cruise control at 140. Will I be committing 2 offences, or just one?

slipperyox · 19-04-2019 2:44pm

Presumably the gosafe also caught the cop speeding to catch up with you?:p

Del2005 · 19-04-2019 2:50pm

Muppet Man wrote: »

Slightly off topic... Wasn’t there a case brought to court a while back where someone out by the airport M1 junction was clocked speeding by a go safe 5 days in a row (or something like that) and effectively lost his license? IIRC he challenged it in court and said he didn’t see the go safe nor the speed limit and since he hadn’t received a fine in the post (yet) said he didn’t know he was being fined (and would have slowed down if he did) . I think the judge was lenient on him and was allowed to keep his license.

That was 5 separate offences. The OP was speeding and caught twice for the same offence.

893bet · 19-04-2019 4:44pm

Del2005 wrote: »

That was 5 separate offences. The OP was speeding and caught twice for the same offence.

Same principal. No opportunity between offences to change behaviour.

Del2005 · 19-04-2019 6:41pm

893bet wrote: »

Same principal. No opportunity between offences to change behaviour.

There's only one offence here though, the OP admits that they were speeding when they past the Gardai and were still speeding going past the van.. The other person speed past on 5 separate days.

Roanmore · 20-04-2019 3:44pm

XsApollo wrote: »

It’s written somewhere on their site , I’ll dig it out.
I didn’t make it up and I’m nearly sure I read it somewhere official.

EDIT: I dunno know if they have a site , i remember reading it tho. :-D

EDIT 2 : can’t find anything on that.
And I’m going to sleep. Maybe I dreamt it.

You are correct, there is a great post by Ironclaw on the motoring forum explaining the situation. Yes the van can detect up to a km away but the photo is take approx 20m from the van depending on the width of the road.

Thewife · 20-04-2019 10:52pm

The problem you’ll have when trying to appeal tickets for the same offence is , the fine from the Garda and fine from the van will most like state the location as M1 southbound between exit 7 and 8 for example . Because both tickets will state the same location but there could be 10 miles between the exits you would need to prove you weren’t caught twice on different parts of that road . for example Garda could have pulled you over just by exit 7 and you could have got back in your car to continue your journey and continue to speed and get caught again by the van 10 miles down the road but technically in the same location , you would need to prove this was not the case . If you had taken a photo when you were pulled in to show the Garda car and the speed van within the same photo then you would have a very good chance of getting 1 of them cancelled as technically they were the same offence in the same location !

Dave147 · 20-04-2019 11:43pm

Rubberchikken wrote:

i think it would be perfectly fair to charge you twice. you're driving in a 100k zone and you choose to drive at 120. tough.

The holier than thou brigade have arrived.

cameramonkey · 21-04-2019 12:22am

SVI40 wrote: »

According to a pal in the Roads Policing, they have a range of 1Km. Naturally, it will depend on traffic and how close cars are to each other, but on an empty road, 1Km.

would the type of camera they use be able to pick up a car registration at 1000 meters. i doubt it.

Credit Checker Moose · 21-04-2019 12:27am

LTI 20-20 has a range of 999m. It doesn't take a photo.

kirving · 21-04-2019 12:42am

BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »

Explain how it’s perfectly fair?
Yes I broke the law, hardly crime of the century though.
It’s hardly fair to get 6 penalty points for that.

Because no matter how honest you are on this site, there's always going to be someone who has never ever done anything wrong in their life, to tell you how wrong you are.

I just put them on the block list.

I think you could have a case in it being classified as one offence. What's to stop 4 Gard's parking on four consecutive M50 on ramps and disqualifying anyone who sets their cruise control to 110km/h?

SVI40 · 21-04-2019 8:18am

cameramonkey wrote: »

would the type of camera they use be able to pick up a car registration at 1000 meters. i doubt it.

From the UK RAC website:

Mobile speed camera FAQs
How far away does a mobile speed camera work from?
On a straight section of road the typical range for a mobile speed camera is two miles.

They can’t, however, record around bends or over brows of hills.

Irishphotodesk · 21-04-2019 8:30am

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Because no matter how honest you are on this site, there's always going to be someone who has never ever done anything wrong in their life, to tell you how wrong you are.

I just put them on the block list.

I think you could have a case in it being classified as one offence. What's to stop 4 Gard's parking on four consecutive M50 on ramps and disqualifying anyone who sets their cruise control to 110km/h?

There is nothing to stop them from doing so, there was a setup a few years ago where Gardai would be placed approx 5-10km along same stretch of road (changes from motorway to dual carriage way) , most people who speed, might recognize the “normal speed van zone” and would increase their speed, if a person was caught twice (it could be argued they deserved it, or it could be argued that it was the same speeding offense), the Gardai were looking at it from a point that there was a higher chance to catch someone speeding after a “speed trap”.

I’m not sure if this tactic is still employed or considered - but I do recall some public opinion being against it (might even be some news reports of people caught speeding twice on same stretch of road, most people viewed it as money making.

The logical inference is that if there is a high chance of getting caught and punished- there is a chance less people will take the risk, as for the OP, he could challenge one of the speeding offenses, but there is the risk of 3pts becoming 5points, so his total would potentially move to 8points - a costly days driving, it will no doubt encourage the OP to be extremely cautious with their speed, if they are to receive 6-8points for one “drive”.

OP - do you think you are more conscious of your speed and speed zones since starting this thread?

dermiek · 21-04-2019 8:52am

When you get the speeding notification in the post from the speed van, and the Garda one could be similar, not sure, there are details of how to email them if you think its in error or think you have a case for leniency. You can contact them then and state the case, they will answer promptly either way. They may cancel one, they may not. You should get a reason from them though as to why not and you can then decide whether to pay or bring the appeal further.

As someone stated, the Gardai could have been, and most likely were, parked 1 or 2 kms before the speed van and it took that distance to catch you. Since you didn't say you spotted them, even as you passed, you could just have been unlucky that both were there. It's not fair, and if it was me I'd be sorely p1s$ed off, but i can see how they would make it two offences.

either way, good luck with it, hope it works out and keep us informed.

you may, of course, hear nothing from the speed van. I believe but have no proof that you have to be very close for the camera to photograph you due to the angle its pointing.

21-04-2019 9:45am

OP, I'd imagine the best thing to do is use the date/time of both incidents to demonstrate is what the same offence.

You can't be done twice for the one offence. Did you mention the speed van to the Garda? I presume he seen it?

I always assumed Gardai are informed of the location of speed vans and don't operate speed checks in the same area? I've personally passed many a speed van, and many a garda car with speedgun out, but never anywhere near each other.

BaronVon · 21-04-2019 11:41am

As stated earlier, if you commit multiple penalty point offences at the same time, you'll only get points for the highest single penalty point offence, in this case 3 penalty points.

However, as the guard chased you, he was obviously at standstill when he clocked you, so he was probably 2-3 kms away from the speed van. What's important here is townlands. If the GoSafe and Guard were in 2 different townlands, then it could well be argued that they are separate offences.

Also, most likely, the guard's ticket will arrive much sooner than the GoSafe one, as apparently there are huge delays processing GoSafe tickets cos of all the people being caught at the M7 roadworks in Naas. So keep a copy of the 1st ticket in case a second one arrives, but I'd be of the opinion you'd be on thin ice if the offences are recorded in separate townlands.

Credit Checker Moose · 21-04-2019 11:46am

The townlands thing has been challenged successfully in the past. There was a famous case in Waterford where a Garda chased a driver over 4 different townlands and attempted to charge him 4 times for the same offence. The entire case was thrown out of court.

MrFresh · 21-04-2019 1:09pm

Thewife wrote: »

The problem you’ll have when trying to appeal tickets for the same offence is , the fine from the Garda and fine from the van will most like state the location as M1 southbound between exit 7 and 8 for example . Because both tickets will state the same location but there could be 10 miles between the exits you would need to prove you weren’t caught twice on different parts of that road . for example Garda could have pulled you over just by exit 7 and you could have got back in your car to continue your journey and continue to speed and get caught again by the van 10 miles down the road but technically in the same location , you would need to prove this was not the case . If you had taken a photo when you were pulled in to show the Garda car and the speed van within the same photo then you would have a very good chance of getting 1 of them cancelled as technically they were the same offence in the same location !

Would the state not be the one that has to prove that it was two separate offences? I wonder if the op simply appealed the fixed charge through the normal channels would one be cancelled?

BuzzMcdonnell · 21-04-2019 1:53pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

There is nothing to stop them from doing so, there was a setup a few years ago where Gardai would be placed approx 5-10km along same stretch of road (changes from motorway to dual carriage way) , most people who speed, might recognize the “normal speed van zone” and would increase their speed, if a person was caught twice (it could be argued they deserved it, or it could be argued that it was the same speeding offense), the Gardai were looking at it from a point that there was a higher chance to catch someone speeding after a “speed trap”.

I’m not sure if this tactic is still employed or considered - but I do recall some public opinion being against it (might even be some news reports of people caught speeding twice on same stretch of road, most people viewed it as money making.

The logical inference is that if there is a high chance of getting caught and punished- there is a chance less people will take the risk, as for the OP, he could challenge one of the speeding offenses, but there is the risk of 3pts becoming 5points, so his total would potentially move to 8points - a costly days driving, it will no doubt encourage the OP to be extremely cautious with their speed, if they are to receive 6-8points for one “drive”.

OP - do you think you are more conscious of your speed and speed zones since starting this thread?

I’m extremely conscious of my speed and speed zones since starting this thread. I have been driving for five years and will have my full license for 2 years this July, meaning that until then my threshold for penalty points is 7 rather than 12.

I’ve been watching my speed and road behavior at all times to make sure I don’t get more points and a ban.

BuzzMcdonnell · 21-04-2019 1:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

OP, I'd imagine the best thing to do is use the date/time of both incidents to demonstrate is what the same offence.

You can't be done twice for the one offence. Did you mention the speed van to the Garda? I presume he seen it?

I always assumed Gardai are informed of the location of speed vans and don't operate speed checks in the same area? I've personally passed many a speed van, and many a garda car with speedgun out, but never anywhere near each other.

I completely clogged up when pulled by the Garda and only afterwards when back on the road did I remember the speed van. Ive no idea if gardai are aware of the location of gosafe vans

BuzzMcdonnell · 21-04-2019 1:56pm

infacteh wrote: »

As stated earlier, if you commit multiple penalty point offences at the same time, you'll only get points for the highest single penalty point offence, in this case 3 penalty points.

However, as the guard chased you, he was obviously at standstill when he clocked you, so he was probably 2-3 kms away from the speed van. What's important here is townlands. If the GoSafe and Guard were in 2 different townlands, then it could well be argued that they are separate offences.

Also, most likely, the guard's ticket will arrive much sooner than the GoSafe one, as apparently there are huge delays processing GoSafe tickets cos of all the people being caught at the M7 roadworks in Naas. So keep a copy of the 1st ticket in case a second one arrives, but I'd be of the opinion you'd be on thin ice if the offences are recorded in separate townlands.

Thanks, I’ll make sure to keep a copy of the ticket to see if the town lands match up.

Thewife · 22-04-2019 11:45pm

The state would have to prove that it was two separate offences .however in order for the state to be asked to prove this , the defendant would have to appeal the tickets on the grounds that they are both for the same offence , so it wouldn’t certainly be easier if the defendant had taken some picture evidence possibly showing the distance from the Garda car and the go safe van . Chances are once the defendant has received both tickets if he rings up the central office and explains they may cancel one of them .

MrFresh wrote: »

Would the state not be the one that has to prove that it was two separate offences? I wonder if the op simply appealed the fixed charge through the normal channels would one be cancelled?

rock22 · 23-04-2019 9:03am

Would the time be recorded on the fixed fine from the Garda?
If it matched the time on the speed camera ticket then it would support the OP that it was a single offence.

Passed speed camera and pulled by Gardai

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