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Memories of corporal punishment

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    #62
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    ollkiller wrote: »
    Never had any corporal punishment in primary but then entered a Christian Brothers secondary school in the 90's in Mayo. A vicious den of punishment. Canes, branches, fists, kicks, dusters, the lot was used basically.

    One teacher was a champion boxer in his day. Regularly clocked children in class. Knocked one lad unconscious and left him there till the end of class. Wasn't a day in his class without someone getting hit. Music teacher had a branch to beat people up with. Got a new branch every year.
    Science teacher broke a lads front tooth in half by hitting him across the back of the head and his tooth banged off the marble science table. Same teacher broke two ribs of another guy by kicking him into the radiator for a few minutes.

    About half the teachers would give out physical punishment of some kind. I fortunately was lucky that i only got beat up once. On my second day in secondary school the christian brother science teacher beat up 28 lads out of 31 lads at half nine in the morning because we were talking and he had a massive hangover. Went round the class one by one and 5 or 6 roundhouse slaps across the back of the head. The three he didn't beat up were sons of Gardai. I got the required 5 slaps but he cut me across my eye. Went home that evening and the ould lady asked where did i get the cut. Regaled the story, next morning the ould lad went into the science teachers class, put him up against the wall and he got the message i was not to be touched. The ould lad then went to the principals office and plainly said if i was ever hit he would take out retribution on the principal. For the next 6 years not one teacher touched me and i am eternally grateful to the ould lad for that.

    Suffice to say the day i finished secondary school was one of the best days of my life. A horrible experience.

    This was in the 90s? Holy Jesus that’s so recent! Clearly very serious issues in that school regarding staff discipline and training


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    #63
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    road_high wrote: »
    This was in the 90s? Holy Jesus that’s so recent! Clearly very serious issues in that school regarding staff discipline and training

    Although it was outlawed in 1982, a teacher couldnt be prosecuted for physical punishment until 1997 - so it carried on until then in a lot of schools.


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    #64
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    ....... wrote: »
    We were regularly beaten with the metre stick, dusters, open handed slaps.

    But the worst single occasion I remember still haunts me now. I genuinely cannot remember my transgression, perhaps I was talking in class - I dont think it was to do with schoolwork.

    But whatever it was, I was sent to the office. The head nun took me by the arm and began to beat me on the backside with her hand. The sudden viciousness and violence frightened the life out of me and I simultaneously began to bawl screaming and crying and wet myself - I was about 5 or 6 years old at the time. The nuns hand (and the floor) got splashed with my urine and she became truly incandescent with rage. She beat me all the harder, roared at me for being a filthy child.

    When the beating was over I was sent to sit on a wooden chair and await my mother to collect me. I dont know how they sent home for my mother, I dont think we had a telephone in those days, perhaps they phoned a neighbour.

    Anyway, she arrived, and this was the worst part - she apologised to the demon in a habit that had just violently assaulted her child. And the nun suggested I get further punished when I went home. We left, with my mother behaving in a servile manner with that woman - when she should have punched her goddam lights out.

    Vicious evil bitches those nuns were.

    Shortly afterwards corporal punishment was abolished in schools, but by then we had moved house and I was in a non religious orders school where no one was getting beaten (in my class anyway), but I remained in terrible dread of school for years, Sunday evening mass would fill me with dread.

    This has genuinely made me so mad. I hope the vile bitch is rotting.


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    #65
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    What was their weird obsession with left handers? Was this another freaky Roman Catholic hang up?
    What difference does it make what hand people wrote with? Some people are gay, straight, male, female, black, white, talk, small- just one of these things people can’t help.
    The stories on corporal punishment and the Irish school system of the recent past could fill a thousand books and then some with what went on.


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    #66
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    ....... wrote: »
    Although it was outlawed in 1982, a teacher couldnt be prosecuted for physical punishment until 1997 - so it carried on until then in a lot of schools.

    Right I didn’t know that. That’s why that cow we had felt she could get away with it so. Always wondered that


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    #67
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,608 ✭✭✭Feisar


    road_high wrote: »
    What was their weird obsession with left handers? Was this another freaky Roman Catholic hang up?
    What difference does it make what hand people wrote with? Some people are gay, straight, male, female, black, white, talk, small- just one of these things people can’t help.
    The stories on corporal punishment and the Irish school system of the recent past could fill a thousand books and then some with what went on.

    It's an ancient thing, the left hand was always considered bad/dirty. In some cultures you'd use the right hand to eat, the left to wipe.

    It's about as Catholic as Halloween.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #68
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    retro:electro wrote: »
    This has genuinely made me so mad. I hope the vile bitch is rotting.

    Cheers - I hope so too, although she is probably still alive, she was only about 30 years or so older than me at the time, and nuns tend to longevity having not had the stresses of marriage/childbirth/raising a family/mortgage or financial worries.

    I posted this story on a Facebook page for the school and a number of people had similar experiences but the admin closed the thread because it was felt it was speaking ill of the dead.


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    #69
    ollkiller
    Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭ollkiller


    road_high wrote: »
    This was in the 90s? Holy Jesus that’s so recent! Clearly very serious issues in that school regarding staff discipline and training

    Aye, I finished in 97. It still went on for a few years after that.


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    #70
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    I started primary in the early 90s and there was one teacher who was a bit fond of a clout across the back of the head or a dig in the back (similar to if you were choking and someone tried to dislodge whatever it was). He was a nice guy except for that though, one guy's Dad came in one day and told him in no uncertain circumstances to ever touch his child again though and that was the end of that ... somewhat.

    Another teacher lost the rag with a lad one day and went to grab him, it was near the end of the school year so we just had shirts on so there was nothing much to grab, he ended up thumping the guy in the chest almost accidentally. Both of them were pretty shook, I think the teacher in fairness called down to the lads gaff to explain but, fcuk that was awkward for all to watch.

    That's all I have!


    I do remember my Mam telling stories of the horrors of the Nuns alright though, she'd have been in school in the late 60s. Apparently one nun in particular was a demon but my Mam being quiet never fell foul of her until one day she left her homework at home when she was 9. The Nun didnt hit her but went to town on her emotionally saying she's off to ring her Dad's work to tell her what has happened. My Mam was inconsolable. Eventually made it home and my Nan knew something was up and wasn't one for the "if the priest or nun says so it must be true" went down to the convent that afternoon and dragged the Nun out the door.

    My Grandad, who was a strict man then heard the news when he got home that night and went down himself to do likewise. My Mam was afraid he wouldn't believe her but he was left handed so knew only too well of how cruel they could be.
    The Nun didn't speak to her again.


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    #71
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    ollkiller wrote: »
    Aye, I finished in 97. It still went on for a few years after that.

    I was in secondary school 95-01 and I think the country had moved into the modern era, there wasn’t any corporal punishment in my secondary school. In fact the pupil teacher relationship had moved onto mutual respect in so many ways in the school I was in, especially for leaving cert.
    Primary was a lot more violent looking back.


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    #72
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    The danger with being too heavy handed with those tyrants was they’d totally ignore your child’s eduction thereafter- they were that vindictive and petty...


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    #73
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Feisar wrote: »
    It's an ancient thing, the left hand was always considered bad/dirty. In some cultures you'd use the right hand to eat, the left to wipe.

    It's about as Catholic as Halloween.

    When did that die out in schools? My sister is late 30s and left handed and don’t think she had any problems. Thankfully


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    #74
    valoren
    Registered Users Posts: 5,458 ✭✭✭valoren


    road_high wrote: »
    Right I didn’t know that. That’s why that cow we had felt she could get away with it so. Always wondered that

    “He shall separate all nations one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left…then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

    If you were on the left, you were a goat, a disbeliever and you went to Hell on Judgement Day. And so seeing that left-handedness was not as common, this must surely have been the work of the devil showing up in those who were left-handed. The above is from the book of Matthew and as it's from the Bible we surmise that it's a load of bollix basically. In effect, it just provided an excuse to hit school kids.


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    #75
    demanufactured
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭demanufactured


    road_high wrote: »
    Right I didn’t know that. That’s why that cow we had felt she could get away with it so. Always wondered that

    I went to secondary in the mid 90s, you could still see it in some teachers.
    If a teach had ever have lain a hand on me, I'd have battered them, no question.
    It happened once with a teacher known to love whiskey.
    He had a go at a fairly meek looking lad, who didn't have the strength to manage metalwork.

    His bigger classmate saw what was gapoening and clattered the teacher with a metal file, sent him flying over the desk, your man was a big country lad who didn't like bullies.
    The teacher never went near anyone in that class again.


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    #76
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Such a screwed up society when you look back on it. They had the population so cowed that they never seemed to question what was going on.


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    #77
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    Such a screwed up society when you look back on it. They had the population so cowed that they never seemed to question what was going on.

    I think society was very very harsh back then- how it treated anyone only slightly outside the “norm” was truly awful.
    Just look back at the 8th Amendment insertion in 1983 vs the tone of compassion that took over the recent debate and referendum.
    People willingly disowned family members because they had a child outside of marriage or were gay.
    This was either a product or a manifestation of our equally harsh school systems. By the late 80/90s this world view was beginning to become outdated, people no longer accepted this carry on as normal.


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    #78
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    In my earlier years I grew up in Malaysia. One of the schools I went to had a sadistic teacher that most likely derived pleasure from hurting her students, from whacking the edge of a ruler across the back of stretched out fingers to pinching ear lobes with her long nails making this "NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEIIIII!!!!" sound, sometimes drawing out blood..

    Swear to God if I saw that bitch again, don't care if she's elderly now I'd knock the daylights out of her.


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    #79
    Hoofball
    Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭Hoofball


    I was in primary in the 70's in a fairly decent school so not too bad. Got the metre stick across the palm of the hands for messing in the yard when I was 6, can still remember it over 40 years later. Would get rapped on the knuckles or the head by one of the thin metre sticks regularly by another guy as I couldn't read the blackboard (got glasses the following year) and he was fond of flinging the wooden dusters at full force at 7/8 year olds. Both of them were christian brothers.

    Was in secondary school in the 80's and it was the lay teachers that had the problems. One guy was into psychological torture, keeping students up at the top of the class and interrogating them for hours at a time purely to embarrass them and belittle them - that was horrendous to experience both as the recipient and from watching it. The only thing that helped is that the class all stuck together as a group and no-one ever took the p*ss out of anyone that got that treatment. A couple of the other teachers would fling dusters/chalk/pens/books or anything else to hand full force at your head or cliing kids up against the board.

    Would never tar all of the teachers with the same brush though, had some great teachers as well. As with any walk of life or section of society you will always get some bad apples. It was just unfortunate that those assholes had control over defenseless kids from 5 year olds upward.


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    #80
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    To be honest, I would tar them or certainly their collective profession with the same brush along with the government bodies and ministers who stood by as it was going on.

    Even the good ones knew what was going on. They could
    have gone on strike over it for example. The politicians were quite happy to turn a blind eye to all sorts of abuses that were going on in plain sight for decades and were just accepted as normal.

    Considering for example school kids of the mid 20th century lived in terror of being sent to Artane. My grandmother took on a guy who'd been in Artane as a shop assistant in the 1960s and she was absolutely horrified at what he'd been though when he told her that whole story.

    He'd dipped a paper aeroplane into an inkwell and thrown it across the class. The teacher dragged him out beat him up and he was sent off to Artane where he was badly abused until he was released and went job hunting.

    The guy was a nervous wreck and had twitches and everything due to the ordeal.

    My grandparents more or less worked on trying to rebuild his self confidence and got him to do some night classes in the tech while working in the shop during the day.

    She made representations about what had happened and wrote to TDs, ministers, bishops and all she ever got was polite replies.


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    #81
    road_high
    Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    To be honest, I would tar them or certainly their collective profession with the same brush along with the government bodies and ministers who stood by as it was going on.

    Even the good ones knew what was going on. They could
    have gone on strike over it for example. The politicians were quite happy to turn a blind eye to all sorts of abuses that were going on in plain sight for decades and were just accepted as normal.

    Considering for example school kids of the mid 20th century lived in terror of being sent to Artane. My grandmother took on a guy who'd been in Artane as a shop assistant in the 1960s and she was absolutely horrified at what he'd been though when he told her that whole story.

    He'd dipped a paper aeroplane into an inkwell and thrown it across the class. The teacher dragged him out beat him up and he was sent off to Artane where he was badly abused until he was released and went job hunting.

    The guy was a nervous wreck and had twitches and everything due to the ordeal.

    My grandparents more or less worked on trying to rebuild his self confidence and got him to do some night classes in the tech while working in the shop during the day.

    She made representations about what had happened and wrote to TDs, ministers, bishops and all she ever got was polite replies.

    The cruelty and harshness of the time was jaw dropping alright. You can multiply that story by tens of thousands


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    #82
    Deebles McBeebles
    Registered Users Posts: 5,753 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    I often wonder if it really has died out in all corners of the country. I saw a Christian Brother slap a guy full force across the face in the late 90's. Far as I know nothing was done and he definitely did not lose his job.


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    #83
    Subacio
    Registered Users Posts: 512 ✭✭✭Subacio


    I was educated by the Franciscan Brothers in primary school and Christian Brothers in secondary.

    The Franciscan "uniform" of flowing brown robe tied with a knotted white rope gave one brother a ready made whip to lash anyone he felt deserved it. He sent one boy (aged 10 or 11) flying through two rows of desks with a punch to the upper arm one day.

    At least his abuse wasn't sexual. Another brother a few years ahead of our class cornered that particular market.

    The Christian Brothers were choirboys compared to the Franciscans, in my experience.


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    #84
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Deebles McBeebles wrote: »
    I often wonder if it really has died out in all corners of the country. I saw a Christian Brother slap a guy full force across the face in the late 90's. Far as I know nothing was done and he definitely did not lose his job.

    There are absolutely no excuses anymore. If you hit a kid as a teacher or even as a parent you can be charged with assault.


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    #85
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    SlowBlowin wrote: »
    Offended again, how does more = only, pretty much the opposite meaning ?

    Are you offended? Well that's how it was. Btw c you stick to the discussion and maybe not try to be pedantic or whatever? That would be great.


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    #86
    Aglomerado
    Registered Users Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭Aglomerado


    Attended primary school in a rural village in the 80s. Teachers gave the odd thump to the shoulder or made you hold out your hand for a slap of the ruler but that was about it. One teacher was a wagon, but she didn't hit us. She was more verbally cruel.
    I seem to have gone to a very sedate secondary school in the 90s! No violence from teachers whatsoever! It was a strict school too!
    My dad who went to the same school as me in the 50s told me about children going to school barefoot. One teacher used to stomp the heel of her shoe on the children's bare feet... Vicious cow.
    My mum told me about a male teacher who used to take young girls on his lap in the classroom and 'mess ' with them during lessons.


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    #87
    Deebles McBeebles
    Registered Users Posts: 5,753 ✭✭✭Deebles McBeebles


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    There are absolutely no excuses anymore. If you hit a kid as a teacher or even as a parent you can be charged with assault.

    It was, at the very least, frowned upon in the late 90's too but this guy seemed to get away with it. Only incident like it I've ever seen in my time in school so it wasn't exactly common place.


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    #88
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    We were quite a while behind Poland where it was outlawed in 1783. However, corporal punishment is very much a legacy you find in the former British Empire. It was a big part of British culture in the 19th and 20th century too.

    It was outlawed in state schools in the UK in 1987 and 1998 in private schools.

    It's illegal in all EU States and even was in banned in the Soviet Union to the point that soviet official were horrified when visiting English speaking western schools and seeing corporal punishment being used in the 60s. In most continental countries there wasn't any real history of it in modern times.

    It was abolished in any school receiving any state funding here in 1982 and became a criminal offence in 1997. That was expanded to include parents using corporal punishment in 2015. So you can now be charged with assault for slapping someone.

    What shocked me is it's still legal and actively used in much of the US southern states.


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    #89
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    gozunda wrote: »
    Are you offended? Well that's how it was. Btw c you stick to the discussion and maybe not try to be pedantic or whatever? That would be great.

    You picking out one sentence from my post and splitting hairs over something that wasn’t even said is the very definition of being pedantic. But sure it wouldn’t be like you.. You must be starved for attention.
    Anyway, moving on.


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    #90
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,266 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Shur I even remember teachers in the 2000's having to hold themselves back from hitting people. Some would have used it in the past.
    They generally had no class room control, read directly out of the book but it was always the students fault. Other teachers didn't have much of an issue tough.


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    #91
    SlowBlowin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,884 ✭✭✭SlowBlowin


    I heard stories in the media some time back of a family who would take the train across the England/Scotland border so they could smack the kids legally.


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