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Child Item

Memories of corporal punishment

realitykeeper

Recently I was thinking of my school days when corporal punishment was practiced. Even when I was not the recipient of this form of punishment but just a witness, it was very frightening - especially when the children were punished for things like poor homework or classwork (as opposed to behaving badly).

Paradoxically, I retain tremendous respect for one teacher who beat and terrified kids but got the job done. His frustration always came through when he was shouting at us and this made me aware of the need to study hard and focus.

I also remember the smell of freshly baked bread from the bakery of the way to school and to this day, I feel a sense of dread when I smell freshly baked bread.

Instances of corporal punishment were still common in the early eighties but not so much after that. Anyone else have, memories of corporal punishment, be they witnessed or experienced? If so, you might find it cathartic to share them (or not).

I do remember the various impliments used. A duster, a strong angular stick, a leather, a short rounded stick, a hand, a pencil. Scary stuff for a seven year old.

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Hoofball

I was in primary in the 70's in a fairly decent school so not too bad. Got the metre stick across the palm of the hands for messing in the yard when I was 6, can still remember it over 40 years later. Would get rapped on the knuckles or the head by one of the thin metre sticks regularly by another guy as I couldn't read the blackboard (got glasses the following year) and he was fond of flinging the wooden dusters at full force at 7/8 year olds. Both of them were christian brothers.

Was in secondary school in the 80's and it was the lay teachers that had the problems. One guy was into psychological torture, keeping students up at the top of the class and interrogating them for hours at a time purely to embarrass them and belittle them - that was horrendous to experience both as the recipient and from watching it. The only thing that helped is that the class all stuck together as a group and no-one ever took the p*ss out of anyone that got that treatment. A couple of the other teachers would fling dusters/chalk/pens/books or anything else to hand full force at your head or cliing kids up against the board.

Would never tar all of the teachers with the same brush though, had some great teachers as well. As with any walk of life or section of society you will always get some bad apples. It was just unfortunate that those assholes had control over defenseless kids from 5 year olds upward.

BeerWolf

In my earlier years I grew up in Malaysia. One of the schools I went to had a sadistic teacher that most likely derived pleasure from hurting her students, from whacking the edge of a ruler across the back of stretched out fingers to pinching ear lobes with her long nails making this "NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEIIIII!!!!" sound, sometimes drawing out blood..

Swear to God if I saw that bitch again, don't care if she's elderly now I'd knock the daylights out of her.

road_high

EdgeCase wrote: »

Such a screwed up society when you look back on it. They had the population so cowed that they never seemed to question what was going on.

I think society was very very harsh back then- how it treated anyone only slightly outside the “norm” was truly awful.
Just look back at the 8th Amendment insertion in 1983 vs the tone of compassion that took over the recent debate and referendum.
People willingly disowned family members because they had a child outside of marriage or were gay.
This was either a product or a manifestation of our equally harsh school systems. By the late 80/90s this world view was beginning to become outdated, people no longer accepted this carry on as normal.

EdgeCase

Such a screwed up society when you look back on it. They had the population so cowed that they never seemed to question what was going on.

demanufactured

road_high wrote: »

Right I didn’t know that. That’s why that cow we had felt she could get away with it so. Always wondered that

I went to secondary in the mid 90s, you could still see it in some teachers.
If a teach had ever have lain a hand on me, I'd have battered them, no question.
It happened once with a teacher known to love whiskey.
He had a go at a fairly meek looking lad, who didn't have the strength to manage metalwork.

His bigger classmate saw what was gapoening and clattered the teacher with a metal file, sent him flying over the desk, your man was a big country lad who didn't like bullies.
The teacher never went near anyone in that class again.

valoren

road_high wrote: »

Right I didn’t know that. That’s why that cow we had felt she could get away with it so. Always wondered that

“He shall separate all nations one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats; and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left…then shall the king say unto them on his right hand, come, ye blessed of my father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world…then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

If you were on the left, you were a goat, a disbeliever and you went to Hell on Judgement Day. And so seeing that left-handedness was not as common, this must surely have been the work of the devil showing up in those who were left-handed. The above is from the book of Matthew and as it's from the Bible we surmise that it's a load of bollix basically. In effect, it just provided an excuse to hit school kids.

road_high

Feisar wrote: »

It's an ancient thing, the left hand was always considered bad/dirty. In some cultures you'd use the right hand to eat, the left to wipe.

It's about as Catholic as Halloween.

When did that die out in schools? My sister is late 30s and left handed and don’t think she had any problems. Thankfully

road_high

The danger with being too heavy handed with those tyrants was they’d totally ignore your child’s eduction thereafter- they were that vindictive and petty...

road_high

ollkiller wrote: »

Aye, I finished in 97. It still went on for a few years after that.

I was in secondary school 95-01 and I think the country had moved into the modern era, there wasn’t any corporal punishment in my secondary school. In fact the pupil teacher relationship had moved onto mutual respect in so many ways in the school I was in, especially for leaving cert.
Primary was a lot more violent looking back.

razorblunt

I started primary in the early 90s and there was one teacher who was a bit fond of a clout across the back of the head or a dig in the back (similar to if you were choking and someone tried to dislodge whatever it was). He was a nice guy except for that though, one guy's Dad came in one day and told him in no uncertain circumstances to ever touch his child again though and that was the end of that ... somewhat.

Another teacher lost the rag with a lad one day and went to grab him, it was near the end of the school year so we just had shirts on so there was nothing much to grab, he ended up thumping the guy in the chest almost accidentally. Both of them were pretty shook, I think the teacher in fairness called down to the lads gaff to explain but, fcuk that was awkward for all to watch.

That's all I have!

I do remember my Mam telling stories of the horrors of the Nuns alright though, she'd have been in school in the late 60s. Apparently one nun in particular was a demon but my Mam being quiet never fell foul of her until one day she left her homework at home when she was 9. The Nun didnt hit her but went to town on her emotionally saying she's off to ring her Dad's work to tell her what has happened. My Mam was inconsolable. Eventually made it home and my Nan knew something was up and wasn't one for the "if the priest or nun says so it must be true" went down to the convent that afternoon and dragged the Nun out the door.

My Grandad, who was a strict man then heard the news when he got home that night and went down himself to do likewise. My Mam was afraid he wouldn't believe her but he was left handed so knew only too well of how cruel they could be.
The Nun didn't speak to her again.

ollkiller

road_high wrote: »

This was in the 90s? Holy Jesus that’s so recent! Clearly very serious issues in that school regarding staff discipline and training

Aye, I finished in 97. It still went on for a few years after that.

.......

retro:electro wrote: »

This has genuinely made me so mad. I hope the vile bitch is rotting.

Cheers - I hope so too, although she is probably still alive, she was only about 30 years or so older than me at the time, and nuns tend to longevity having not had the stresses of marriage/childbirth/raising a family/mortgage or financial worries.

I posted this story on a Facebook page for the school and a number of people had similar experiences but the admin closed the thread because it was felt it was speaking ill of the dead.

Feisar

road_high wrote: »

What was their weird obsession with left handers? Was this another freaky Roman Catholic hang up?
What difference does it make what hand people wrote with? Some people are gay, straight, male, female, black, white, talk, small- just one of these things people can’t help.
The stories on corporal punishment and the Irish school system of the recent past could fill a thousand books and then some with what went on.

It's an ancient thing, the left hand was always considered bad/dirty. In some cultures you'd use the right hand to eat, the left to wipe.

It's about as Catholic as Halloween.

road_high

....... wrote: »

Although it was outlawed in 1982, a teacher couldnt be prosecuted for physical punishment until 1997 - so it carried on until then in a lot of schools.

Right I didn’t know that. That’s why that cow we had felt she could get away with it so. Always wondered that

road_high

What was their weird obsession with left handers? Was this another freaky Roman Catholic hang up?
What difference does it make what hand people wrote with? Some people are gay, straight, male, female, black, white, talk, small- just one of these things people can’t help.
The stories on corporal punishment and the Irish school system of the recent past could fill a thousand books and then some with what went on.

retro:electro

....... wrote: »

We were regularly beaten with the metre stick, dusters, open handed slaps.

But the worst single occasion I remember still haunts me now. I genuinely cannot remember my transgression, perhaps I was talking in class - I dont think it was to do with schoolwork.

But whatever it was, I was sent to the office. The head nun took me by the arm and began to beat me on the backside with her hand. The sudden viciousness and violence frightened the life out of me and I simultaneously began to bawl screaming and crying and wet myself - I was about 5 or 6 years old at the time. The nuns hand (and the floor) got splashed with my urine and she became truly incandescent with rage. She beat me all the harder, roared at me for being a filthy child.

When the beating was over I was sent to sit on a wooden chair and await my mother to collect me. I dont know how they sent home for my mother, I dont think we had a telephone in those days, perhaps they phoned a neighbour.

Anyway, she arrived, and this was the worst part - she apologised to the demon in a habit that had just violently assaulted her child. And the nun suggested I get further punished when I went home. We left, with my mother behaving in a servile manner with that woman - when she should have punched her goddam lights out.

Vicious evil bitches those nuns were.

Shortly afterwards corporal punishment was abolished in schools, but by then we had moved house and I was in a non religious orders school where no one was getting beaten (in my class anyway), but I remained in terrible dread of school for years, Sunday evening mass would fill me with dread.

This has genuinely made me so mad. I hope the vile bitch is rotting.

.......

road_high wrote: »

This was in the 90s? Holy Jesus that’s so recent! Clearly very serious issues in that school regarding staff discipline and training

Although it was outlawed in 1982, a teacher couldnt be prosecuted for physical punishment until 1997 - so it carried on until then in a lot of schools.

road_high

ollkiller wrote: »

Never had any corporal punishment in primary but then entered a Christian Brothers secondary school in the 90's in Mayo. A vicious den of punishment. Canes, branches, fists, kicks, dusters, the lot was used basically.

One teacher was a champion boxer in his day. Regularly clocked children in class. Knocked one lad unconscious and left him there till the end of class. Wasn't a day in his class without someone getting hit. Music teacher had a branch to beat people up with. Got a new branch every year.
Science teacher broke a lads front tooth in half by hitting him across the back of the head and his tooth banged off the marble science table. Same teacher broke two ribs of another guy by kicking him into the radiator for a few minutes.

About half the teachers would give out physical punishment of some kind. I fortunately was lucky that i only got beat up once. On my second day in secondary school the christian brother science teacher beat up 28 lads out of 31 lads at half nine in the morning because we were talking and he had a massive hangover. Went round the class one by one and 5 or 6 roundhouse slaps across the back of the head. The three he didn't beat up were sons of Gardai. I got the required 5 slaps but he cut me across my eye. Went home that evening and the ould lady asked where did i get the cut. Regaled the story, next morning the ould lad went into the science teachers class, put him up against the wall and he got the message i was not to be touched. The ould lad then went to the principals office and plainly said if i was ever hit he would take out retribution on the principal. For the next 6 years not one teacher touched me and i am eternally grateful to the ould lad for that.

Suffice to say the day i finished secondary school was one of the best days of my life. A horrible experience.

This was in the 90s? Holy Jesus that’s so recent! Clearly very serious issues in that school regarding staff discipline and training

.......

My father was brutalised at the hands of the christian brothers himself.

He had the unfortunate luck to be left handed, so he was beaten daily until he wrote with his right hand. Then in a particularly bad beating a brother broke his right wrist, so when it healed he had to relearn to write with that hand again.

He remained a right handed writer but left handed for all else his whole life. He also had an abhorrance of physical punishment.

Strangely himself and my mother chose to send us kids to religious orders schools where we were also subjected to violence. I could never understand why my parents sent us there. My mother said later that it was considered the best education so they thought they were doing the best for us.

In my brothers school one particular brother used to get the kids to stand on a stool to reach the blackboard and do out the homework sums from the previous night on the blackboard. If the kid got anything wrong yer man would whack the stool out from under him with a hurley and let the poor kid hit the wooden floor. Just vicious bastards - should never have been allowed near children.

road_high

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

It's no wonder so many people are 'fcuked up', (for want of a better phrase). Reading this thread is brutal, some of you were essentially straight-up tortured

Even in the 90s we were on the receiving end of the slap & battered with endless catholic dogma.

But by gum is it brilliantly different now - Nothing but positivity in schools, kids are treated as equal human beings and not being beaten and bullied senseless by those who are supposed to nurture them.

The current generation of primary school kids will be the ones who save the world I reckon.

There’s many of us well under 40 that can vividly remember elements of corporal punishment still going on, well into the 90s.
I was good in school, but I hated it in many ways. The atmosphere was always on edge with one teacher in particular and I had her for 3 years.
Even up to that time, parents wouldn’t come in and question teachers though my own mother, fair play to her, did a few times when my brother was wronged completely. Now there’d be uproar and having gone through it, rightly so. Kids need discipline for sure but not smacks across the back of the head because they can’t do long division.

ollkiller

Never had any corporal punishment in primary but then entered a Christian Brothers secondary school in the 90's in Mayo. A vicious den of punishment. Canes, branches, fists, kicks, dusters, the lot was used basically.

One teacher was a champion boxer in his day. Regularly clocked children in class. Knocked one lad unconscious and left him there till the end of class. Wasn't a day in his class without someone getting hit. Music teacher had a branch to beat people up with. Got a new branch every year.
Science teacher broke a lads front tooth in half by hitting him across the back of the head and his tooth banged off the marble science table. Same teacher broke two ribs of another guy by kicking him into the radiator for a few minutes.

About half the teachers would give out physical punishment of some kind. I fortunately was lucky that i only got beat up once. On my second day in secondary school the christian brother science teacher beat up 28 lads out of 31 lads at half nine in the morning because we were talking and he had a massive hangover. Went round the class one by one and 5 or 6 roundhouse slaps across the back of the head. The three he didn't beat up were sons of Gardai. I got the required 5 slaps but he cut me across my eye. Went home that evening and the ould lady asked where did i get the cut. Regaled the story, next morning the ould lad went into the science teachers class, put him up against the wall and he got the message i was not to be touched. The ould lad then went to the principals office and plainly said if i was ever hit he would take out retribution on the principal. For the next 6 years not one teacher touched me and i am eternally grateful to the ould lad for that.

Suffice to say the day i finished secondary school was one of the best days of my life. A horrible experience.

road_high

Corporal punishment was well gone before my time in primary school but that didn’t stop one cow subtly using it regularly, especially on weaker kids. 25 years ago and it’s still clear as day in head and can still hear her screeching voice and facial expressions. She never hit me but used use psychological methods instead- can distinctly remember her exclaiming “you’d think butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth...”I think in reference to some mistake I may have done or said! A fairly cutting remark to say to a ten year old!
Her physical methods onto other kids were flicking their knuckles with a pen or light smack across the back of the head- she’d be arrested if it was now. That was only 92-94 years so not ancient history.

In fairness nothing compared to what went on in my das time. You’d actually feel a little emotional hearing the abuse kids suffered for nothing back then. Thank god teachers are so much better trained now and we do live in a time where’s there’s compassion and some understanding for children.

[Deleted User]

Raps on the knuckles with Rulers, boxes in the head from certain teacher's, put kneeling in a corner of a room for 110 mins with my nose in the corner, teachers calling around to friends mothers who were separated with bottles of vodka after school hours, all sorts of stuff I could go on...

Pinches twisted into my skin, choked, slaps across the face, and of course actual fist fights!

I remember a school trip to Connemara where some lads were battered by drunken teachers which was way worse to the point of having to apologize to parents

Christian brothers schools were the antithesis of craic for the most part, and most of this was after the ban!

SlowBlowin

gozunda wrote: »

If for some reasons you believe that corporal punishment only happened in the absence of psyological cruelty and brutality then you couldn't be more wrong. Both existed side by side and were never challenged as they were part and parcel of the status quo. Not surprising that the same individuals in schools carried over an acceptance and continuation of this behaviour into later years.

Offended again, how does more = only, pretty much the opposite meaning ?

Mint Sauce

Corporal Punishment had been done away with a few years before I started school. However looking back, you could see that some of the older teachers were frustrated that it was no longer an option, and found it difficult to control students, and the students knew it too.

Some incidents included board rubbers being fired across rooms, desk lids being closed down on hands/fingers, one student being chased around the room lifted up by the scruff of his neck, and one actually hitting a Nun, and telling her you cant hit me back!

retro:electro

gozunda wrote: »

If for some reasons you believe that corporal punishment only happened in the absence of psyological cruelty and brutality then you couldn't be more wrong. Both existed side by side and were never challenged as they were part and parcel of the status quo. Not surprising that the same individuals in schools carried over an acceptance and continuation of this behaviour into later years.

Yeah I never said that.

storker

Tow wrote: »

We had 'The Biffer'. A leather strap which came in two sizes, the big one and small one! Applied to the hand at least twice, depending on the severity of the punishment.

We had that in my school, but we called it "the blackjack". Actually several layers of leather stitched together. I saw the toughest guys in the class reduced to tears after having that applied to an open palm at high speed.

In secondary school the head brother used to go around with a big bunch of the school keys on a key ring, and thought nothing of applying them to someone's knuckles.

Then was the everyday stuff that didn't even qualify as "punishment" e.g. being encouraged to be faster at opening the right page by means of repeated punches to the upper arm.

Funny thing though, school discipline. Some teachers had it without ever resorting to violence. And I remember one who I'm sure never shouted or gave detention or hit anyone or even sent them to the principals office. And yet nobody messed in his class. (He had a funny habit of of repeatedly pacing a few steps forward...then back...then forward, etc while addressing the class jingling the keys and change in his pockets at the same time, the effect of which was to make it look as if he was always bursting for a pee.)

gozunda

retro:electro wrote: »

It was illegal by the time I attended school, but it didn’t stop the cruelty and brutality, it just manifested in more psychological terms....

If for some reasons you believe that corporal punishment only happened in the absence of psyological cruelty and brutality then you couldn't be more wrong. Both existed side by side and were never challenged as they were part and parcel of the status quo. Not surprising that the same individuals in schools carried over an acceptance and continuation of this behaviour into later years.

retro:electro

It was illegal by the time I attended school, but it didn’t stop the cruelty and brutality, it just manifested in more psychological terms. I was taught by the same nuns who once had free reign to slap and abuse, so no doubt they struggled with the lack of control and thus were sadistic in other means. Not letting you go to the toilet (many of us had accidents) making you stand up and read aloud over and over and over until you read a passage without stumbling, if any of us scratched our heads we’d be made fun of for having nits, and god help you if you were from a broken home, you were the target of ridicule and abuse and derogatory comments about your home life. If you didn’t know the weekend sermon from mass on a Monday morning, you were the chosen target for the day. I’ve memories of walking to school with girls who had been to mass and desperately trying to gather what the sermon was about, for fear I would be asked.
Although it was outlawed, there was still the odd slap, but they usually were saved for the more deprived children whose parents probably didn’t give a fcuk and wouldn’t have issue with it. One girl in my class was hard of hearing and didn’t put her pencil down when told to and she got a slap right across her face. The red mark was still there hours later walking home from school.
Although they gave me a good primary education, being taught solely by nuns was suffocating and it was only when I went to secondary school I felt I could breathe and relax, and I didn’t have this fear of needing to know something or else be ridiculed.

Schools today aren’t perfect but it’s nice to see kids running into school happy and laughing, a far cry from thirty, forty years ago when my mother used to walk to school with the fear of god inside her. It’s just mad to think what they got away with, I’m not sure you’d ever get over it. I feel sorry for those who had this as a pattern in their schooling on the regular, especially those who struggled with learning; as they got the worst of it.

Borderfox

Metre sticks, drum sticks, leathers, canes, umbrellas, fists, feet and generally anything that came to hand was used. I got the leather everyday in 4th class because I had an accident and broke my left wrist so couldn't write. Everyday until the cast came off, another teacher hit me with his fist in the side for talking in class that I had a huge bruise on my side for weeks. We were children at that stage, all in primary